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Mask
Learned Scribe
104 Posts |
 Posted - 22 Jul 2003 : 13:59:51
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| I'd have to disagree Zemd. Cyric replaced 2 evil powers and Kelemvor the 3rd. However, Kelemvor is neutral, so he brings to balance further to the good side. And above that Mystra is good, so that tops the balance over to the good side. I think that's unfair. |
Nothing is impossible! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
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Mask
Learned Scribe
104 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2003 : 14:07:38
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| Well, Myrkul was evil. So if a neutral person takes over his power, destroying the evil side, the balance is tipping the scale to tha good side. See it as a scale in perfect balance. Take a weight from one side, and not from the other side. The scale would tip to the side where no weight was removed. |
Nothing is impossible! |
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zemd
Master of Realmslore
France
1103 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2003 : 14:12:02
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But before Cyric there was Jergal who was neutral...
<zemd stops a little and thinks>
I think that we won't be able to know if the pantheon is balanced right now. Maybe it's not, and IMO it IS NOT. But i don't hope it will. I would mean that they reach perfection and that there's nothing more to be done... so no more changes, no more wars, no more plots,... in the RL i'd say GREAT, but what the point of peace in a fantasy world?  |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2003 : 14:14:45
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Interesting Mask. Although I would think that the Realms deitific structure would be a little more complicated that a simple scale analogy.
As for the pantheon being balanced, well I don't think it ever will either. But for an entirely different reason. When Mystra and Bhaal both forsaw their deaths in the Time of Troubles, they both automatically put into action plans that would affect the future of the deity balance for years and generations to come (Mystra's Chosen, and Bhaal's children). The constant deity changes, and takeover of portfolios also puts pressure on maintaining the balance. Just like at the example concerning the return of Bane.
I don't really see the Realms pantheon as being wholly balanced but more like a swinging pendulum, being pulled and pushed by one deity being destroyed and then being replaced by another, a deity taking over another deities now absent portfolio and such, one deity being reduced in power, another ascending. All these effect the balance in some way and since what is going in, is not equal to what is coming out (or vice-versa) it is impossible for the actual pantheon to be balanced. Ao just tries his best to keep it whole.
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Edited by - The Sage on 22 Jul 2003 14:23:59 |
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MuadDib
Senior Scribe
South Africa
442 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2003 : 14:51:29
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And remember that Ao is even the big boss, he is but one of a number of possible other major-major Gods, who in their own roles swing a possible pendulum which could of course be part of a bigger and more intricate balance represented by another swining pendulum and so on and so on....
::MuadDib rubs his throbbing temple:: |
MuadDib - Candlekeep Inn Barhand |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
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Mythander
Learned Scribe
USA
121 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2003 : 17:53:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Sage of Perth
I know that. What I meant was, the length deities will go to to maintain the fragile balance of their world and their power. For example, the stepping down of Paladine after the fall of Takhisis in the War of Souls, to preserve the overall balance on Krynn. It is similar in effect to Shar and the creation of the Shadow Weave, to balance against Mystra and the Weave. Both Good and Evil are held eternally in check.
True, the same can be said for Tymora and Beshaba {s/p?} |
Wow! That has no saving throw written all over it. |
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Carrick
Acolyte
Netherlands
8 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2003 : 20:42:08
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A very interesting topic.
The least favorite character.......
What I regret is that there is so few knowledge about demihuman deities concerning the Time of Troubles. There are tomes and libraries containing inked material about The Balance of the Pantheons, but what about Elves and Dwarves......
The only thing I found was the fact that Lloth was walking the Abyss and Underdark in one book in The Legacy of The Drow (Starless Night perhaps or Siege of Darkness).
I know the FR are merely concerning Humans, but I want it to be more multi-cultural. There are so few books concerning demihumans, although a few elves pop in once in a while and drow seem to be 'in', I never get to read novels concerning Dwarves or nottomention Halflings and their deities.
or am I just looking the wrong way? |
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Carrick
Acolyte
Netherlands
8 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2003 : 20:57:27
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As for the topic....
I would agree that I disliked Adon as well, he is not very...well he's not much anyway. There is no confidence, charisma, motivation or whatever behind his doings.
About Mystra
As midnight she was just Midnight and you can;tblameher for acting like she had always done. no matter how goody two shoes this might seem. The only times she amused me was when she was captured by Bhaal and when she was casting prysmatic spray or something at the end of the trilogy where elminster and khelben were confirmed that this was no ordinary spell wielder.
As a goddess, she indeed went over her edge of her portfolio and Ao allowed it, during the aftermath of the Times. It is clearly described she wanted to rid the Pantheon of Cyrics evil.
It all had nothing to do anymore with her portfolio of Magic, it was just a grudge she had against Cyric and played by it.
As a goddess of magic, one should expect more objectivity
The fact that there are so many chosen of Mystra is not really important, according to me.
It is just that there has been more material about them (Elminster, Seven Sisters) There have been less books about others but more are coming I think.
One cannot claim that one as Elminster can be described as 'good'. He is more neutral.
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Carrick
Acolyte
Netherlands
8 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2003 : 21:12:44
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| And mask, is it not Torm you should point your anger at. Being the catalyst in destroying precious Bane? |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2003 : 21:45:21
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| There was a time I checked the balance of the Faerunian Pantheon. I assigned Greater gods 4, Intermediate 3, Lesser 2, and Demi/quasi 1. I then went through the god books and tallied up all the gods alignment. The pantheon pendulum seems to work out to Neutral good. I used the old alignment chart in the 1st ed PH and just tallied them in the sections. A lawful good greater god would give Lawful 4 points and Good 4 points, etc. |
A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2003 : 02:48:44
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I remember that old alignment chart from 1e PHB. I wish that tome was not in storage now  . Anyway, have you made any attempt to 'check the balance' so to speak for the current structure of the pantheon?.
Actually what would be interesting is to use the alignment chart and assignment of points to see the progressive nature of the pantheon from before the Time of Troubles, afterward, the recent events for deities as portrayed in various novels, then right up to the return of Bane. I think it would be interesting to see the overall shift in pantheon alignments over the various periods of FR history. It also might show a pattern of alignment shifts that may show which direction the balance is currently heading in.
What do you think Mournblade?.
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2003 : 05:45:05
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Hmmm actually sage if you could help me with all the old gods I would be happy to do that. All I need is a good list of the original gods. I know some of them, but not all of them. I guess it would of all started with Selune and Shar. In anycase I will try to get to this on Saturday. I am going to see IRON MAIDEN and Ronnie James DIO in concert for friday, and I know for sure thursday night I am going to be far too juiced up for anything else:)
I am a Colossal Iron Maiden Follower.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2003 : 07:02:37
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I'd be glad to assist Mournblade. Athough I must say that being the classical music devotee that I am, I find your choice in music leaves a lot to be decided  .
Anyway, I'll search through my books when I get home from work. Do you have a copy of the original FR boxed set?. I am fairly certain the entire pantheon of FR gods is listed in that tome, the 'Cyclopedia' I think. Of course I could be mistaken, but I remember reading something in the FR 1e set that contained the listing of deities both past and present (at least until 1358DR).
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Edited by - The Sage on 23 Jul 2003 07:03:27 |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2003 : 07:54:11
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How exactly does this system average out? Sorry, I'm just not good at math, so it's not coming into my head . . . .  |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2003 : 08:28:12
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Since I still have to retrieve my 1e PHB from storage, I will just simply say, that the whole system averages out by the process of the amount of points each deity alignment receives. The method is a little more complex, but as I said, I don't have the material with me. You then simply find the average of all those values for the different alignments.
This average then corresponds to a chosen listing on the chart.
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zemd
Master of Realmslore
France
1103 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2003 : 08:29:37
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| Hmmmm, hmmmm, i suggest that we continue our discussion here |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2003 : 15:35:29
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I was thinking about the main character from The Nether Scroll novel, Druhallen, and how I felt him to be very poorly portrayed, even though the actual novel was quite good. I wouldn't say he is my least favorite FR character - since I have said before that I don't have one - but then again he wasn't my favorite either.
What do the other scribes here think of the character of Druhallen?.
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2003 : 23:15:56
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I didn't like the druid from the RIng Of Frost novel. I can't even remember his name, but I thought he was lame. Not lame like Jezz the lame, just lame like lame lame. |
A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2003 : 07:12:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Sage of Perth
I don't remember that druid in 'Ring of Frost'. I think he was in Ring of Winter .
AHHH YES!!!! I stand Corrected... It was indeed the ring of winter. Well they are both COLD!! Kind of like the life and development of the characters in that book. |
A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2003 : 08:25:46
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I know what you mean. It was an okay novel, but it couldn't have stood alone as a non-FR book. Actually, my only favorite thing in it was the explorer guy's book. I've wanted one like that ever since.
Worst thing: dinosaurs. I know that's in the campaign setting, but I just don't like it . . . . It says something strange about me, perhaps, how I can accept all the different species of dragons and such, but not dinosaurs. But there you go. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2003 : 09:31:27
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No, I agree with you Bookwyrm. So much in fact that I don't have dinosaurs in my FR campaign, especially in the Chult region. Instead I created a special type of Dragon subspecies, and used the converted Slann-lords from the WHFB game to populate the region. Needless to say, I have never regretted the decision, for the simple fact...I don't like dinosaurs in fantasy campaigns settings. Ancient world settings, I believe are more of a realistic setting, but it all depends on how 'ancient'.
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2003 : 09:51:30
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Well, it could work, I think. I had an idea, while I was writing that, for a world with dinosaurs in it. Imagine, riding a velocioraptor into battle. Di- or triceratops (or the like) as beasts of burden, or as a way to crash into a battle line.
That last reminds me of Harry Turtledove's The World At War series. It's basically a rewrite of WWII, only in a fantasy world. Aircraft carriers are now ships large enough to bear dragons (which are both fighters and bombers combined). On the ground, men ride battle-unicorns and 'behemoths' into battle. The behemoths are what I was reminded of. Like the triceratops idea, they're the tank-analog. They sound like rhinoceroses in their description. Anyway, they're slow and lumbering, but can work up to a devistating charge. And they're also strong enough to mount large versions of the energy-sticks they use in place of gunpowder weapons.
(I don't recomend that story for anyone without a lot of mental stamina. Not only is Turtledove a bit hard to get used to, he's long-winded. These books are thick. And it's a long, bloody war of attrition.)
Back to the original off-topic topic. All that aside, I think that dinosaurs just wouldn't work in the Forgotten Realms. They just don't fit. I like your idea better, Sage, though I don't know what you were referring to as far as your source goes. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2003 : 10:00:17
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Bookwyrm, I am in the middle of Guns of the South at the moment, but the books you just mentioned sound fascinating. I guess I know what I am reading next...
The Slann-lords are basically very large lizardmen (think of the Hutts) who ride levitating thrones and command powerful clerical spells. They are also the lords of the lizardmen theocracy and command large armies of various subtypes of lizardmen. I have the entire Chultan area under their dominion. They have just recently emerged from fighting a costly war with the now united (at least for the moment) Empires of the Sands.
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2003 : 10:19:07
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Ah, yes, that was the first Turtledove book I read. Facinating novel, especially because it's not really about the war at all. And I suppose, from the perspective of a non-American, it must be doubly interesting.
The way he treats the war in that one, though, isn't how he does it in the series I mentioned or in the Worldwar saga (aliens try to conquer Earth during World War II, forcing everyone to unite; they use technology about fifty years ahead of our own time, I'd think). Both are long, drawn out wars where everything is almost pointless. (Art imitating life, I suppose.) Far different than the sort of clever maneuvering I like in a war story. (One of the reasons I like the Honor Harrington books, as if I needed another! You can also take a look at the Belisarius books as well for that sort of thing.)
I suppose this really should go into the next IPS mail shipment, though.
As to the lizardmen -- great! I like that idea. I suppose, though, that this should really go over in the DM Changes to Standard FR Campaigns scroll, no? |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2003 : 13:46:15
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That's a good idea Bookwyrm. I'll collect all my notes together later and post some more of my changes.
I know we have talked about the 'Avatar' trilogy characters quite a bit, some let's move onto Shadows of the Avatar. Which of the main characters in that trilogy (besides Elminster) was the least favorite for everybody?.
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Mythander
Learned Scribe
USA
121 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2003 : 17:53:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Sage of Perth
I know we have talked about the 'Avatar' trilogy characters quite a bit, some let's move onto Shadows of the Avatar. Which of the main characters in that trilogy (besides Elminster) was the least favorite for everybody?.
Hmmmmmm...... That’s tough, granted it has been a long time since I have read that series, but I can't think of any characters that I had a problem with. |
Wow! That has no saving throw written all over it. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2003 : 04:14:54
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The main characters were the three members of the famed Rangers Three group. They consisted of Sharantyr, the female Ranger, Itharr, the male Ranger, and Belkram, also another male ranger. Out of the three I felt Itharr and Belkram were poorly handled, at least as Ranger-type characters. At times they seemed to act more like fighters.
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Least favorite FR character.
