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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Nov 2008 : 14:18:06
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Context: I'm working on an adaptation of the seropaenes for the FR. It's an organization presented in Tome of magic regrouping followers of lawful gods against the threat that is the binders. The members put aside their different dogma to unite against a common foe which threathen the very existence of gods. It's an interesting organization where paladin of Heironeous work together with Vecna's necromancers.
In my adaptation, the gods included in this union are: Bane, Helm, Azuth, Tyr, Torm and Kelemvor. Long-story-short, the leader is a former paladin of Helm* who grew tired of protecting the unworthy and is now a blackguard who devote his life to help those who help themselves. The point is, he is still a follower of the same god, Helm. Can he still be considered a "fallen" paladin? How would he be viewed by the other members of his clergy? Or by Helm himself?
He does not "oppose" goodness, he is a champion of law with an iron hand, more akin to Bane's philosophy than Torm's. Tell me what you think
* The leader's name is Sir Micheal Ambrose and the background I present differs from the one in the book.
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2008 : 14:47:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
In my adaptation, the gods included in this union are: Bane, Helm, Azuth, Tyr, Torm and Kelemvor. Long-story-short, the leader is a former paladin of Helm* who grew tired of protecting the unworthy and is now a blackguard who devote his life to help those who help themselves. The point is, he is still a follower of the same god, Helm. Can he still be considered a "fallen" paladin? How would he be viewed by the other members of his clergy? Or by Helm himself?
I don't have a definite answer on this, but my opinion is that followers of Helm are supposed to protect those who can't protect themselves, although you didn't say how this character defines "unworthy". |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2008 : 15:00:40
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[/quote]
I don't have a definite answer on this, but my opinion is that followers of Helm are supposed to protect those who can't protect themselves, although you didn't say how this character defines "unworthy".
[/quote]
Good point. By unworthy, I mean those who whine for help, but never do anything to help themselves. Those who always expect someone else to solve their problems. I admit that an evil follower of Helm might be difficult to imagine. IMO, he would gladly help the weak and those in need, but the ones he helped must have grown stronger by that help. In other words, one must not become sloth or careless just because he knows the near temple of Helm will always be there to solve his problems.
Anyway, I played a paladin of Helm in the past and he did not let those things stop him from protecting someone, but I can imagine someone who could grow tired of this. Hence the LE followers, who choose those worthy of protection. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2008 : 15:21:07
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I say if it works for you, go for it. I also understand that Helm can have LE clerics, I was just pointing out that his dogma is all about being a guardian of others. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2008 : 15:28:33
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| Allow me to ask the question differently then. How would you picture a LE priest/blackguard/follower of Helm? What aspect of protection/protector/guardian can have an evil side? I think the best example I have is Ashram from Record of Lodoss war (you must see this anime if you missed it, a classic). The best way to protect the weak might be by restraining them, forcing them to improve, and punish them if they don't. All for their sake. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3737 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2008 : 16:02:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
How would you picture a LE priest/blackguard/follower of Helm? What aspect of protection/protector/guardian can have an evil side?
-I'd see nothing wrong with a LE follower of Helm. It's allowed by the rules, so there's no problem there. Personally, I'd envision such a being as too lawful, to the point that people fear the individual. Minor unlawful infractions are dealt severely. For example, something minor like J-Walking would be punished with death, a punishment totally too harsh for the crime. The person would be extremely regimented, dealing harshly with anyone or anything that upsets the clockwork, even in an extremely minor way. The people, knowing this, fear the individual, and somehow upsetting the strict balance set up. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2008 : 16:08:20
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| Right. But then, what would Helm think of such an individual? I think that by your definition, That follower would misunderstand Helm's teaching, making him a "bad" disciple. I think your point of view is right, but for the "fear" part from the people. I think despite the over-zealous acts of that follower, the people might feel safe, hence well-protected. That way, Helm could be as proud of this priest as of the righteous paladin. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3737 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2008 : 16:15:15
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-Remember, Helm is all about laws, and following them. A LE follower who is following the laws him/herself, and is making sure that others follow them to the 'T', lest they be punished, would appeal to Helm. The follower might not be doing it in a "nice" manner, but at the end of the day, laws are being set and followed.
-Remember, people can fear the LG people, too. Take the average person and the average cop. It's not going too far out there to call the average cop LG. They are certainly lawful, and in wanting to make the world a better place and such, they could certainly be lawful. The average person regards the average police officer with a bit of fear- misguided, sure. But, the average reaction by someone who is driving or whatever, when they see a cop, is to slow down, make sure they are obeying the speed limit, make sure they use their turning signals, and all of that. They suddenly become afraid that the cop will notice them breaking the law, and give them a ticket. Now, concerning a LE follower of Helm, I'd take this notion, and multiply it by a thousand. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2008 : 16:25:22
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| Interesting, thank you for your thoughts on the topic. And I think you are quite correct. In the end, I think that the key in being a "good" follower of Helm is to always do the best of their capacity to make the citizens fell safe. Even LE, I think that his followers must be altruistic. Hmm, that brings several ethical questions to my mind. Can you be evil for the greater good? Does that follower consider himself good or evil? |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2008 : 16:27:24
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| Every time I think LE characters, I base it on Judge Dredd. Upstanding and works on the side of the law. But `ware if you make the slightest infraction against the law in front of him. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2008 : 16:34:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
Hmm, that brings several ethical questions to my mind. Can you be evil for the greater good? Does that follower consider himself good or evil?
It's a bit of a sticky question... But certainly, evil people can act for the greater god. The morality can still be questionable, though. We have, with the Moonstars, canon examples of evil folk working towards good ends. But the question that comes up is "If you need to use a vampire to accomplish a good end, is that end really so good?" Personally, I say yes, but it could be argued either way.
People generally don't think of themselves as evil. They may not think of themselves as paragons of good, but they likely will use the "ends justify the means" card and think they're not bad people. |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2008 : 16:47:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
People generally don't think of themselves as evil. They may not think of themselves as paragons of good, but they likely will use the "ends justify the means" card and think they're not bad people.
My thoughts exactly, thanks. It's good to see that I'm not the only one trying to push the alignments to something more interesting than good vs evil. That's the strong point of FR IMO, everything is not black or white like in LOTR. Something can be good for one and evil for another, that makes the game interesting. It's easy for the PC to simply kill an enemy when he's a demon or a mad cleric of Cyric/Talos/Bane. But when that enemy turns out to be of "good" aligment, simply having different point of view of good and evil, that's when real role-play comes out.
I love this, thanks Mr. Greenwood. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3737 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2008 : 17:20:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
Hmm, that brings several ethical questions to my mind. Can you be evil for the greater good? Does that follower consider himself good or evil?
-In D&D, such questions of alignment get very sticky, quickly. Utilitarianism doesn't translate well into D&D. For example, assassinating Hitler would be considered an evil act in D&D, since assassination is an evil thing, no ifs, ands or buts about it. Following the philosophy of Utilitarianism, however, such an act would certainly be moral, as the "bad" that comes about from killing Hitler is quickly offset by the "good" that comes about from Hitler being dead and unable to carry out his war on Europe and his genocidal 'Final Solution'. I, personally, tend to disregard such D&D definitions, and apply real-world philosophy to my game. Someone who assassinated Hitler would be doing something that is morally "good", rather than something that is morally "bad".
-So, could someone who does evil work for the greater good? Sure, using real-world philosophies, rather than the D&D philosophies. The LE dictator learns that there is an Orc horde in the vicinity. He has the Orcs killed, so they do not attack the city he is ruling. A Kantist would say that what he is doing is not ethically correct, since he is doing something that is beneficial for others for his own personal self-gain, but a Utilitarian would certainly see this as a moral act. After all, while a bunch of Orcs were killed, this is offset by all of those townsfolk being saved from the Orc horde, which undoubtedly would have caused great harm, with the rape, and the murder and the general chaos and such. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2008 : 17:27:06
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I don't know, personally, this is why, up until I moved my campaign to Pathfinder, I still used the alignment rules for divine casters from 2nd edition. Helm may have been LN, but he only had good or neutral followers, at least as divine casters.
I know, someone is going to bring up the Maztica trilogy. I guess this is like trying to close the barn doors after the horse is out, the horse has already died of exhaustion, and the barn itself has burned down and only the doors remain. |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2008 : 17:35:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
For example, assassinating Hitler would be considered an evil act in D&D, since assassination is an evil thing, no ifs, ands or buts about it.
There you have a perfect example of the difference between an evil person and an evil act. The good person who assassinate Hitler did an evil act, yes, but that does not make him an evil person. Moreover, it doesn't depend of the action as much as the motive:
1- Kill Hitler to stop the war --> Good
2- Kill Hitler because you were paid to do it --> meh, depends, let's say neutral
3- Kill Hitler for the fun of it -> evil
The same could be said if an evil priest of Bane healed the wound of someone. It's a good action, but doesn't make it a good person.
Let's take that orc horde. Were they really planning to attack the town? Were they killed just to take no chance? Where the women/children/elders killed as well? If the orcs were killed for no good reasons, I'd say that it's an extreme evil act and should not have been done by a good person.
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Tyranthraxus
Senior Scribe
Netherlands
423 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2008 : 18:07:30
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I think killing Hitler isn't evil, looking at the cirumstances at that time. Adventurers and heroes kill baddies all the time and they aren't evil. Killing isn't morally right in the real world but playing a pacifist in a fantasy game takes away the fun and excitement.
Anyway, I really like your idea of a LE blackguard of Helm. A fallen paladin tired of protecting those who don't deserve it, like rich greedy merchants for example. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3737 Posts |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2008 : 18:29:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Tyranthraxus
I think killing Hitler isn't evil, looking at the cirumstances at that time. Adventurers and heroes kill baddies all the time and they aren't evil. Killing isn't morally right in the real world but playing a pacifist in a fantasy game takes away the fun and excitement.
Anyway, I really like your idea of a LE blackguard of Helm. A fallen paladin tired of protecting those who don't deserve it, like rich greedy merchants for example.
First, thank you. Second, while killing might not be evil all the time, assassination is. It implies killing someone while he is defenceless, or at least it was wished that he is. And even then, there is the PrC Slayer of Domiel* from the Book of exalted deeds confirms that while assassination is an evil act, these skills can be used for a noble purpose.
*btw the role-play for this character can be incredibly fun, especialy when given to an ex-evil PC.
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2008 : 20:39:28
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I love the paladin/blackguard morality discussion, so I thought I'd throw in my two cents here:
I don't think Helm (for reasons 'Lyrna brought up, about his dogma being "protect the defenseless" and all his crusading against evil, despite not being good aligned himself) would knowingly have evil priests/paladins. Maybe a few here and there, but they're treading very close to the heretical line of things.
Doesn't mean you *can't* do it, of course, but another path you might consider is that your paladin of Helm may not actually serve *Helm*, regardless of who he thinks his patron is.
Say you start off with a LG paladin of Helm who loves his job, loves being a paladin, loves helping those in need.
Say said paladin has a series of very frustrating, even tragic setbacks. People he was supposed to defend died because they refused to fight when pressed, or he wound up defending the wrong side (greedy merchants while common people starved). His causes can be all good and noble, because such things are bound to happen when you have a hard job like that of a paladin. It's just a matter of how you deal.
Maybe after a period of dissatisfaction with the church and protecting those who won't protect themselves, he finally "falls from grace" (i.e., lost his paladin powers). Startled and justifiably upset by this, he sets out to atone, but rather does something that didn't actually *atone* for his misstep (like he protects a demon/devil disguised as a human, or a powerful priest of what seems like a good god, but is really Bane or Cyric, thus *seeming* to do good, while in reality allowing a horrendous evil to take place that wouldn't have happened without his help). He is able to justify this evil--or convince himself that he isn't instrumental in bringing it about--and so he willingly commits an act of evil, thus becoming an ex-paladin, not a real paladin at all, and will *never* get his paladin powers back.
Say instead of seeking atonement or solace in the church of Helm, he despairs and grows increasingly violent and cruel (perhaps with aid from the evil entity he contacted earlier). He keeps trying to do the right thing, but he just can't really bring himself to do it. A long time passes, and he grows increasingly frustrated and vulnerable. (This is the evil entity's chance to seduce him to darkness.)
Then, miracle of miracles, his "paladin powers" (really blackguard powers gained through contact with said evil entity) return. And not just a little, but a lot (with those ex-paladin levels). In his mind, he totally did something right, and now he's back on the straight-and-narrow. Powers might be a little different, but why wouldn't they be? He's gone through something most paladins don't.
(Believe me, when you've gone without something that you're sort of addicted to for a long time, and it suddenly reappears and everything seems wonderful again? You can justify quite a lot.)
These days, your LE ex-paladin/blackguard *really* gets his spells and abilities from Cyric, say, whose extremely deceptive priests have manipulated him into the church of Helm in order to undermine it from within. He doesn't think of himself as evil, and he openly resents and opposes any attempt to discern his alignment as a complete and total insult (indicative of perhaps the inquirer being a spy).
He still thinks he serves Helm perfectly, and why wouldn't he? The most brutish, ruthless actions don't ever cost him his "paladin" powers, so clearly his god doesn't object. To his mind, sure, he may be walking the line a little more closely than his fellow paladins--unlike them, he's not afraid to get his hands dirty when he needs to--but as long as he keeps his powers, he's *clearly* doing things the right way.
Most importantly, he has no idea how far over it he really is. He would probably be *shocked* to find out that he's not a paladin at all.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2008 : 21:04:08
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| This is indeed a great story and could certainly happen. The one thing that bugs me is when you say that Helm would not knowingly have evil priests. In his entry in Faiths and Pantheons it says that his cleric's alignment is any lawful. Does that mean that all LE clerics of Helm are all wrong? Why does Helm bothers to give them spells then? Are they all manipulated like the blackguard you suggest? |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2008 : 21:49:45
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Well . . . see, that's one of the most interesting facets of Helm to me personally, is that here you have a LN deity whose main enemies are all evil aligned, and whose allies are all good aligned, and whose cause is largely to stamp out evil in all its forms (that's the impression I get in his dogma entry).
I believe I mistyped when I said "Helm would not knowingly have evil priests"--I think what I meant to say is that Helm would not *want* a lot of evil priests, just as he probably wouldn't want that many *good* priests either--he's LN (Note: See consideration 3, below).
I rather think that evil priests are the substantial minority in Helm's faith, and are probably stigmatized against. I imagine his church as being heavily regimented, with people constantly expected to show their adherence to Helm's dogma and/or the strength of their moral character. Evil priests would have to hide their evil, or they would belong to harsher wings of the faith that aren't as concerned about scruples.
I also suspect that Helm would give evil priests spells for three major, interconnected reasons:
1) Pursuit of duty/guardianship as a goal might in theory nudge them back onto the path of righteousness. So if Helm wants to see them become good (or at least less evil), then allowing them in his church might seem like a way to push them in that direction.
2) Even if they are evil, at least they're doing what Helm wants (i.e., protecting things). So technically speaking, they are fulfilling his purpose/portfolio.
3) In order to be "good" (in the sense of perfect, not moral) guardians, you need to be willing to get past your moral scruples and protect something regardless of personal philosophy. In this respect, it's helpful to have evil priests that you can send out to do less savory things, like protecting the back gates of evil temples where innocent maidens are being sacrificed to dark gods, etc., etc.
Let me clarify: I think there's no problem with Helm having evil priests, or even for those priests to get high up the chain of command. But there needs to be a good explanation for why a deity crusades against evil to redeem its church after the moral failings of the past (particularly Maztica), and yet allows that sort of corruption in its ranks.
I suspect evil priests of Helm are more common in dominantly evil lands (or at least neutral lands). There are more evil Helmite priests in Westgate, say, than in Suzail. Any priests of Helm who live in Zhentil Keep or the Moonsea in general probably tend toward LN or LE, rather than LG.
And let's make a distinction between "priests" and "paladins" here. Evil priests are far easier to reconcile than Helmite paladins (bright shining good guys with a bold exclamation point!) who become Helmite blackguards. Why did they stick to the same deity? Did that cause problems in the church? What do their former paladin friends think of them?
Doesn't mean it can't be done (obviously it can)--and I for one think it *should be done*, because it's just so fascinating.
This is like the heretical paladin of Bane that I played once. (Ahem!)
I also think that your "hardened paladin turned blackguard, who believes in protecting those who protect themselves and is really harsh and cruel about his job" makes perfect sense for a Helmite, and you should definitely go with it if that's what works for you.
I was just giving an alternate strategy, in case you wanted to keep him a misguided idealist (who still thinks he's doing the right thing), rather than a bitter, morose guardian (which still fits into Helm's church nicely, if that's what you want).
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
Edited by - Erik Scott de Bie on 18 Nov 2008 21:52:05 |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2008 : 22:09:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Doesn't mean it can't be done (obviously it can)--and I for one think it *should be done*, because it's just so fascinating.
This is like the heretical paladin of Bane that I played once. (Ahem!)
I also think that your "hardened paladin turned blackguard, who believes in protecting those who protect themselves and is really harsh and cruel about his job" makes perfect sense for a Helmite, and you should definitely go with it if that's what works for you.
Cheers
Can't thank you enough sir. I do think it's the kind of stuff that make this game/world so fascinating, so that's what I'm gonna do. Oh and a paladin of Bane? that's gonna take me a while to figure that one out 
And I thought I was pushing limits  |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2008 : 14:51:22
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| This has been an interesting scroll, and I enjoyed reading all the comments. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2008 : 14:58:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Doesn't mean it can't be done (obviously it can)--and I for one think it *should be done*, because it's just so fascinating.
This is like the heretical paladin of Bane that I played once. (Ahem!)
I also think that your "hardened paladin turned blackguard, who believes in protecting those who protect themselves and is really harsh and cruel about his job" makes perfect sense for a Helmite, and you should definitely go with it if that's what works for you.
Cheers
Can't thank you enough sir. I do think it's the kind of stuff that make this game/world so fascinating, so that's what I'm gonna do. Oh and a paladin of Bane? that's gonna take me a while to figure that one out
And I thought I was pushing limits
Look up the Unearthed Arcana book with the Paladin of Tyranny base class for some good ideas... 
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I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
Edited by - Ashe Ravenheart on 19 Nov 2008 14:58:32 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2008 : 15:10:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
And I thought I was pushing limits
Heh. I strive to keep my writing fairly gray on the alignment/morality scale.
IMO, heroes should be heroic, yes, but not white-shining examples of goodness. Villains should be villainous, yes, but with enough humanity to make them more than just the Big Bad. Black-and-white is kinda boring to me--gray is where the action is.
And as for pushing limits . . . well, the prologue of Ghostwalker is a pretty fair example of me pushing a serious limit.
And on the note of that shameless plug . . .
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2008 : 22:33:00
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Let's remember that the D&D alignments are patches of terrain in a 3-by-3 grid, and some 'evil' characters are much more or less evil than others. The most likely evil followers of LN gods are just over the line from neutrality into evil, certainly less evil than they are lawful. You can be an evil follower of a god obsessed (to put it in misleading mortal terms) with law in about as far as your evil nature and priorities don't divert you too much from the god's lawful concerns.
Whereas blackguards, as described, are eviler than that, and eviler than this character sounds. I don't think the super-laissez-faire 3E idea of a paladin who directly converts to antipaladinhood -- the blackguard class was, after all, a sop to all those people who wanted paladin powers without paladin ethics -- fits the Realms. A paladin who knowingly performs an evil act is no longer a paladin, full stop. He could later become some form of evil divine servant, but there aren't going to be many such organizations in Helm's priesthood.
At the very least, other clergy are going to view an ex-paladin as someone who's betrayed a trust, which is a big deal for Helmites.
People in the Realms don't have names like Micheal Ambrose, by the way.
You can get plenty of moral complexity in heroic fantasy without twisting it into disenchanted realism in fantastic drag, leading to such absurdities as short stories about sensitive good goblins, as if monster races were races in the 'human ethnicity' sense, which they absolutely aren't in Tolkien or D&D.
Often Faerūnian gods will indeed stop granting prayers to priests who stray too far from the god's ethos, alignmentwise or in other terms. But we know (in the small degree that we know anything about the gods) that they sometimes support individuals or groups who veer from their core philosophies for diverse whimsical or far-sighted purposes. |
Edited by - Faraer on 21 Nov 2008 22:39:34 |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2008 : 12:43:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Let's remember that the D&D alignments are patches of terrain in a 3-by-3 grid, and some 'evil' characters are much more or less evil than others. The most likely evil followers of LN gods are just over the line from neutrality into evil, certainly less evil than they are lawful. You can be an evil follower of a god obsessed (to put it in misleading mortal terms) with law in about as far as your evil nature and priorities don't divert you too much from the god's lawful concerns.
Of course, I thought it was clear that he would more lawful than evil, that's the point of the character.
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Whereas blackguards, as described, are eviler than that, and eviler than this character sounds.
I don't understand why you say that. Blackguards are evil, that's for sure, but as for the intensity of evil, I not sure he should be as evil as a paladin is good. That would be a stereotype IMO.
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
I don't think the super-laissez-faire 3E idea of a paladin who directly converts to antipaladinhood -- the blackguard class was, after all, a sop to all those people who wanted paladin powers without paladin ethics -- fits the Realms. A paladin who knowingly performs an evil act is no longer a paladin, full stop. He could later become some form of evil divine servant, but there aren't going to be many such organizations in Helm's priesthood.
Of course, I not saying that paladins who fall from grace all become blaguard, of even evil for that matter. In my campaigns, it's even a rare occurence. But in this case as he is described in the Tome of magic, he is, and it fits very well with what I need.
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
People in the Realms don't have names like Micheal Ambrose, by the way.
I don't give names enough importance in my campaign to change the one that was already given to him. But thanks for pointing that out
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
You can get plenty of moral complexity in heroic fantasy without twisting it into disenchanted realism in fantastic drag, leading to such absurdities as short stories about sensitive good goblins, as if monster races were races in the 'human ethnicity' sense, which they absolutely aren't in Tolkien or D&D.
Well, I'm not so sure that's true. I think humanoids like goblins, orcs or drow have ages of evil heritage, but that does not make 100% evil without the possibility of goodness. And no I won't give you the Drizzt argument, that's not the point. I'm sorry, but for me, they are more than a simple entry in the monster manual and certainly more interesting that those described by Tolkien.
Thanks for your post, I love to have as many people's opinions on such topics
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2008 : 15:15:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
I don't understand why you say that. Blackguards are evil, that's for sure, but as for the intensity of evil, I not sure he should be as evil as a paladin is good. That would be a stereotype IMO.
Well, as per 3E rules, one becomes a "blackguard" by knowingly making a pact with an evil outsider.
Not sure how you are doing things in your campaign, though. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 24 Nov 2008 15:15:35 |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2008 : 15:37:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Well, as per 3E rules, one becomes a "blackguard" by knowingly making a pact with an evil outsider.
Not sure how you are doing things in your campaign, though.
I do not think that making a pact with evil outsiders is such an evil act in itself. Well, it certainly is not something a good character should do casually, but if the pact is used for good, then why not? I believe that Cadderly makes pacts with an imp (or was it a quasit) frequently, one time in particular to locate the soul of Wulfar in the abyss IIRC. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2008 : 16:47:47
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quote:
The blackguard epitomizes evil. He is nothing short of a mortal fiend. The quintessential black knight, this villain carries a reputation of the foulest sort that is very well deserved. Consorting with demons and devils and serving dark deities, the blackguard is hated and feared by all. Some people call these villains antipaladins due to their completely evil nature.
Not a stereotype, it's the concept of the class. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2008 : 16:55:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
I do not think that making a pact with evil outsiders is such an evil act in itself. Well, it certainly is not something a good character should do casually, but if the pact is used for good, then why not? I believe that Cadderly makes pacts with an imp (or was it a quasit) frequently, one time in particular to locate the soul of Wulfar in the abyss IIRC.
Even if that's an accurate accounting of what happened (it's been years since I read the book in question), do you really think that's the same thing as what I was referring to, when considering the rules for becoming a blackguard? I didn't get the impression that people became blackguards by accident. I'm with Faraer on this one. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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paladin and blackguard of the same god
