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Originally posted by Alisttair

Yes the floating cities of Netheril are held up there by Mythals (both past and present versions of Netheril I believe, but the past ones definately)

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Originally posted by The Sage

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Originally posted by Alisttair

Yes the floating cities of Netheril are held up there by Mythals (both past and present versions of Netheril I believe, but the past ones definately)

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Are you sure you're not thinking of the giant "battery-like" Netherese mythallars instead Alisttair?

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Originally posted by Afetbinttuzani

Thanks, everyone.
I agree that the Zhents might not possess the cohesiveness to produce a Mythal sized ward. I wonder if the Drow could accomplish it? If they were to retake the twisted tower in Shadowdale with Zhent support, perhaps they could attempt to construct a Mythal-type ward to prevent it from being retaken by the other dales or the intervention of Cormyr.
Afet

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Originally posted by The Sage

Myth Lharast in Amn is an example of a mythal city that had little or no elven input into its creation, given that it was dedicated to Selune.

Much of what the earlier editions said about mythals was vague and general. In my view the primacy of elven High Magic in mythal creation is more propaganda than fact. The elves likely did it better than the other races, but not always and certainly not exclusively.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Do we know for certain that elves were not involved in the raising of Myth Lharast's mythal?

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Originally posted by The Sage

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Do we know for certain that elves were not involved in the raising of Myth Lharast's mythal?

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I don't immediately recall whether it's actually been specifically stated. I just remember that there were no specific elven influences mentioned in reference to the temple city. And the LoI references for Myth Lharast tell us it was dedicated to Selune: not the most elven of deities.

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Originally posted by The Sage

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Do we know for certain that elves were not involved in the raising of Myth Lharast's mythal?

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I don't immediately recall whether it's actually been specifically stated. I just remember that there were no specific elven influences mentioned in reference to the temple city. And the LoI references for Myth Lharast tell us it was dedicated to Selune: not the most elven of deities.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

True, but there have been elven followers of human deities. Considering that mythals are generally elven, I'd be inclined to think there were some Sehanine worshippers involved in raising that mythal.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by The Sage

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Originally posted by Alisttair

Yes the floating cities of Netheril are held up there by Mythals (both past and present versions of Netheril I believe, but the past ones definately)

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Are you sure you're not thinking of the giant "battery-like" Netherese mythallars instead Alisttair?

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Indeed. Despite the unfortunate similarity of their names, mythals and mythallars are totally separate beasts.

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Originally posted by George Krashos

For a long time Myth Lharast has been like a small hunk of meat caught in my back teeth that no amount of tongue probing can dislodge. Simply put, as a "Myth X" city it didn't make much sense. Similarly, Myth Iliscar on Lantan doesn't make sense either unless we put an elven presence on that island (pre-human obviously) as well.

I've tinkered with a few solutions, one of which gels fairly well with the current (and controversial) take on deities in 4E. I'd long latched onto Ed's statement that gods in the Realms use a large amount of subterfuge in terms of gaining worshippers and thereby deriving deific power. I'd envisoned that the Realms was saturated with little (and not so little) cult gods and religions which purported to worship X but in actuality were worshipping Y. Hence the cult of "Gorthak of the Storms" was actually worshipping Talos etc. etc. etc.

As such, I wasn't at all peturbed by the 'folding in' of various deities in the cosmology into others - ala the Sehanine into Selune change as well as others. To me it made sense as I had never envisioned gods in "my Realms" to be anything other than things to be worshipped with meaningful contact occurring more through manifestations rather than avatar or direct god/mortal interaction (ala some of the stuff Ed showcased in FR11 Dwarves Deep).

Drawing from that, and given Myth Lharast's location (surrounded as it is by elven lands and environs for millenia) why couldn't the city have had a sizable elven population who worshipped Sehanine alongside the humans who worshipped Selune (with 'both' gods - actually the same god - giving signs to 'their' respective worshippers that such a thing was "good") and thereby having a hand in the laying of a proper mythal by way of elven High Magic.

In fact, the coming of these moon worshipping moon elves (because Selune and Sehanine are all about the moon and magic) to the environs of Minsorran (led by 'signs' from their deity) may have been the catalyst for the breakaway from that state and the establishment of Myth Lharast.

So in answer to the question, it's not a situation where elves are worshipping a 'human' deity, it's elves worshipping an 'elven' deity alongside humans worshipping a 'human' deity. The fact that these elves and humans can live in social and religious harmony is clearly enhanced by the concept that they are in actuality worshipping the same deity with that deity nudging them into cooperation and interracial co-existence because it suits it to do so.

Anyway, that's my view on Myth Lharast from a post-4E perspective. I think it works fairly well, all things considered.

-- George Krashos

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
That's pretty similar to what I was thinking, Krash. I wasn't approaching it from any ruleset-specific angle; I was just figuring it was elven worshippers of Sehanine and human worshippers of Selūne. It's an obvious way around it, thinks I.

... Though you did explain it better, and with more involved Realmslore.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by Afetbinttuzani

Thanks, everyone.
I agree that the Zhents might not possess the cohesiveness to produce a Mythal sized ward. I wonder if the Drow could accomplish it? If they were to retake the twisted tower in Shadowdale with Zhent support, perhaps they could attempt to construct a Mythal-type ward to prevent it from being retaken by the other dales or the intervention of Cormyr.
Afet

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It would have to be an odd group of drow... Creating a mythal requires cooperative spellcasting. And from what we've seen of the drow, even when cooperation can achieve a worthy goal, they're still quite willing to off a rival for their own advancement.

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Originally posted by George Krashos

For a long time Myth Lharast has been like a small hunk of meat caught in my back teeth that no amount of tongue probing can dislodge. Simply put, as a "Myth X" city it didn't make much sense. Similarly, Myth Iliscar on Lantan doesn't make sense either unless we put an elven presence on that island (pre-human obviously) as well.

I've tinkered with a few solutions, one of which gels fairly well with the current (and controversial) take on deities in 4E. I'd long latched onto Ed's statement that gods in the Realms use a large amount of subterfuge in terms of gaining worshippers and thereby deriving deific power. I'd envisoned that the Realms was saturated with little (and not so little) cult gods and religions which purported to worship X but in actuality were worshipping Y. Hence the cult of "Gorthak of the Storms" was actually worshipping Talos etc. etc. etc.

As such, I wasn't at all peturbed by the 'folding in' of various deities in the cosmology into others - ala the Sehanine into Selune change as well as others. To me it made sense as I had never envisioned gods in "my Realms" to be anything other than things to be worshipped with meaningful contact occurring more through manifestations rather than avatar or direct god/mortal interaction (ala some of the stuff Ed showcased in FR11 Dwarves Deep).

Drawing from that, and given Myth Lharast's location (surrounded as it is by elven lands and environs for millenia) why couldn't the city have had a sizable elven population who worshipped Sehanine alongside the humans who worshipped Selune (with 'both' gods - actually the same god - giving signs to 'their' respective worshippers that such a thing was "good") and thereby having a hand in the laying of a proper mythal by way of elven High Magic.

In fact, the coming of these moon worshipping moon elves (because Selune and Sehanine are all about the moon and magic) to the environs of Minsorran (led by 'signs' from their deity) may have been the catalyst for the breakaway from that state and the establishment of Myth Lharast.

So in answer to the question, it's not a situation where elves are worshipping a 'human' deity, it's elves worshipping an 'elven' deity alongside humans worshipping a 'human' deity. The fact that these elves and humans can live in social and religious harmony is clearly enhanced by the concept that they are in actuality worshipping the same deity with that deity nudging them into cooperation and interracial co-existence because it suits it to do so.

Anyway, that's my view on Myth Lharast from a post-4E perspective. I think it works fairly well, all things considered.

-- George Krashos

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Originally posted by Hoondatha

I don't like the god-smashing-togetherness. One of the things I've always liked about the Realms was the true polythesism, praying to twenty different gods in a day as you enter their sphere of control, and where there was respect between different faiths, both within and between races, because everyone knew all the other gods existed. 4e took most of that away.

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Originally posted by Hoondatha

Suffice it to say that there is nothing about the 4e gods that I like. Not from a lore perspective, not from a playing perspective

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Originally posted by Magister Sunstrider

As for the Drow, I seem to remember something about them lacking the "connection" that allows them to cast Elven High Magic and must instead use the standard rules for epic spellcasting, but I'll be damned if I can remember where or when I read such a thing.

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Originally posted by Dagnirion

[quote]
-Correct (Though, The Lady Penitent Trilogy conveniently ignores this fact, or misrepresents what the Drow Magi are casting as Elven High Magic). Selu'Taar, when joining in circles, are able to cast Elven High Magic rituals because of (A) Their magical prowess, and (B) the communion of the various minds and spirits of the casters. Drow, in lacking that innate pseudo-spiritual connection to one another, like most other Elves have, cannot link their minds and spirits as Selu'Taar, and thus, cannot wield Elven High Magic. They can cast Epic Spells that look, act and smell like Elven High Magic spells, but they would not be using Elven High Magic itself.

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Originally posted by Ifthir

Hmm, I recall the "drow" having help...


Spoiler below:
Weren't the drow actually dark elves using the powers of the kiira found behind Kraanfhaor's door? Didn't they then become these very 'dark-elves' who were punished along with the allies they never sought?

Also, didn't the actual high magic have help from Khelben's group of casters who also restored the sharn and their city, as well as the scene that cost Qilue her life?

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