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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36781 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 00:53:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
In the absence of gaming utility for the books, there are much better novels available even for casual reading. Historical novelists like Colleen McCullough, C. S. Forester, Bernard Cornwell, Ellis Peters and Robert Graves stand far above the writers working in the Realms in quality. So do popular fantasy/horror writers like Dean Koontz and Stephen King. Even questionable quality thriller writers in the class of Tom Clancy, Grisham or Crichton are arguably superior.
And we once more have something subjective... I, for one, have little desire to read historical novels. I like Dean Koontz, but I find his stuff somewhat formulaic -- almost all of his main characters are drawn from a very small pool of archetypes, and he rarely mixes them up that much. And Stephen King... The man can tell a good story. But the way he tells some of those stories is simply atrocious. He may be far more successful than any Realms novelist, but I've never looked at a Realms novel and wondered how a hellaciously long run-on sentence got past the editor, or thought that a Realms novel had gratuitous sex and profanity.
And me, I'd far sooner reach for a novel set in a game world than many of the books by so-called great authors. Some of the stuff I've read -- particularly in school -- left me wondering very much why a book was considered a classic or why a novelist was considered good. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 26 Aug 2008 00:55:46 |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 10:46:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Well, many FR novels have given me some fun times and good memories.
Oh, sure, and it's entirely possible to enjoy things even though they may not have any artistic merit.
For example, I'm entirely aware that my campaign is probably all kinds of wrong in a literary sense, but that doesn't mean that I don't like it. I just accept it for what it is, i.e. friendly entertainment and not art.
But I can't compare The Rage, The Rite or The Ruin (to name a recent RSE novel trilogy) with War and Peace, A Farewell to Arms or even classic science-fiction like A Mote in God's Eye. Nor can one compare it with Tolkien, with C.S. Lewis, with Bulkakov, Kafka or even modern writers like Terry Pratchett, Gabriel Garcia Marquez, Murakami or Neil Gaiman. Even comparisons with an overrated author like Paulo Coelho are unfair.
In the absence of gaming utility for the books, there are much better novels available even for casual reading. Historical novelists like Colleen McCullough, C. S. Forester, Bernard Cornwell, Ellis Peters and Robert Graves stand far above the writers working in the Realms in quality. So do popular fantasy/horror writers like Dean Koontz and Stephen King. Even questionable quality thriller writers in the class of Tom Clancy, Grisham or Crichton are arguably superior.
Even when it comes to pulp entertainment, the real pulp writers have already done it and better. Everyone from Lovecraft, Leiber, Heinlein to Robert E. Howard, H. Rider Haggard and Edgar Rice Burroughs wrote for the pulps; with poets and novelists such as Kipling, Mark Twain and Upton Sinclair competing with yarnspinners like Conan Doyle, Jack Vance, Jack London, Joseph Conrad, Phillip K. Dick, Zane Gray, Dashiell Hammet and Raymond Chandler.
There are dozens I'm forgetting, but I think you get the picture. That's not saying that Realms-fiction is bad. Just that the world is so full of great fiction that if it wasn't for the gaming value of game world novels, I'd never have any time or inclination to read it.
More or less the same opinion I hold. Except when it comes to modern historical novels; not my thing. Although, as usual, dated as I am, I prefer pre-World War II for litterature and pre-80's for fantasy and Pulp.
As for TSR post novels, most of the ones I have finished I haven't started and my life is not long enough to read books I don't enjoy. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 14:01:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And we once more have something subjective... I, for one, have little desire to read historical novels. I like Dean Koontz, but I find his stuff somewhat formulaic -- almost all of his main characters are drawn from a very small pool of archetypes, and he rarely mixes them up that much.
I named a wide variety of authors, in many different fields. My point wasn't that any one individual author was indisputably better than all Realms-authors (although I'd willingly argue that based on my own subjective judgment), but rather that despite what your tastes might happen to be, there are better examples out there of what you like.
And that's not a judgment on the people writing for WotC. It's a simple expression of the truth that people respond to incentives and that someone who is able to please enough people by his books will generally be able to command more and better rewards by writing in his own world and for a different publisher than WotC or other companies that publish game settings.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And Stephen King... The man can tell a good story. But the way he tells some of those stories is simply atrocious. He may be far more successful than any Realms novelist, but I've never looked at a Realms novel and wondered how a hellaciously long run-on sentence got past the editor,
He gets them past the editor because he's Stephen frickin' King. A tortured editor in thrall to WotC beancounters may feel comfortable about cutting scenes, characters and story willy-nilly out of a book by Ed Greenwood or Richard Lee Byers and instructing them to 'put in more fight scenes', but it would take considerably more courage and determination to make changes to a manuscript turned in by a man who could sell his used toilet paper if he signed it.
Incidentally, I feel that King is technicaly a very accomplished writer, familiar with a wide range of styles and methods. The style you may have seen him use in his popular horror books is deliberately chosen to evoke a sense of unease and nervousness and he is equally capable of writing a sense of urgency, of excitement or even of nostalgia; all depending on what the story demands.
Have you read his non-fiction book On Writing? It's all too easy to dismiss him as a popular novelist, but that is both unfair and inaccurate. The truth is that he's a master of his craft and that's why he's popular.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
or thought that a Realms novel had gratuitous sex and profanity.
Gratuitous?
Sociological research indicates that verbal taboo words and their use to relieve tension, incicate displeasure, etc. is nigh universal in human cultures. If I read a fantasy novel where the protagonists are threathened, disappointed, hurt or worse; but they never feel the need to vent their feelings with a well-chosen epiteth, I begin to suspect I'm not reading a story about humans or even people. I feel that I'm reading about some species far less interesting and one that's very hard to relate to in any way.
And sex? C'mon, even though we're gamers, I'm pretty sure we all have it. 
Certainly we result from it. We can be pretty sure that everyone we know has experience of it. Not only is a a vital part-and-parcel of our society, culture and genetic makeup, it's also one of the major sources of friction in our world and friction is at the core of stories.
Any story about humans or a race resembling them in the slightest can't help but include sex and profanity, because, hell, the daily lives of everyone, from kings to peasants, include these things. Violence, however, violence is supposed to be much rarer than either of these things. Violence, also, unlike the breaking of made-up verbal taboos and the natural procreation of our species, is inherently harmful to people.
This doesn't mean that I don't want violence to feature in stories. Not at all, conflict is the meat of stories and violence is, whatever else it may be, conflict embodied. But I do wonder what kind of strage system of values could look upon casual violence as a perfectly valid form of entertainment while denigrating other, much more normal expressions of our humanity, that, incidentally, don't even hurt anyone. 
Most Realms-novels include far too much violence, treat the consequences far too lightly and all but ignore the psychological trauma suffered by characters. And I don't mean this in some sort of moral sense, I mean it in the sense that it detracts from the value of the story by using an important literary device poorly and too often.
I'd far rather have some 'gratuitous' sex and profanity that might serve to build characters and tell the story than the near-constant uninteresting battle scenes inserted at the express wish of corporate beancounters that we currently have to suffer.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And me, I'd far sooner reach for a novel set in a game world than many of the books by so-called great authors. Some of the stuff I've read -- particularly in school -- left me wondering very much why a book was considered a classic or why a novelist was considered good.
That's a personal choice, of course, but I do doubt, however, that one lifetime is enough to read just the best books in the world. You can't even manage to hit the major points of the best authors.
There are just so many good books out there that no matter your personal tastes, you are bound to find enough good ones that you don't need to be reduced to reading mediocre ones. Unless those mediocre ones have other uses, such as giving you details about a gaming world you love. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36781 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 18:11:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And we once more have something subjective... I, for one, have little desire to read historical novels. I like Dean Koontz, but I find his stuff somewhat formulaic -- almost all of his main characters are drawn from a very small pool of archetypes, and he rarely mixes them up that much.
I named a wide variety of authors, in many different fields. My point wasn't that any one individual author was indisputably better than all Realms-authors (although I'd willingly argue that based on my own subjective judgment), but rather that despite what your tastes might happen to be, there are better examples out there of what you like.
And that's not a judgment on the people writing for WotC. It's a simple expression of the truth that people respond to incentives and that someone who is able to please enough people by his books will generally be able to command more and better rewards by writing in his own world and for a different publisher than WotC or other companies that publish game settings.
And yet I still disagree. Some of my fave books have been Realms novels. By saying that no matter what my taste is, someone outside the Realms has done it better, you're falling into that "shared world fiction isn't as good as independent fiction" cliché that is so prevalent in the writing industry. I have never seen a reason to pigeonhole books into shared world/non-shared world categories, so I consider them all from the same standpoint: do I like the story? And for me, as a reader, how much I enjoy the story is the only concern.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And Stephen King... The man can tell a good story. But the way he tells some of those stories is simply atrocious. He may be far more successful than any Realms novelist, but I've never looked at a Realms novel and wondered how a hellaciously long run-on sentence got past the editor,
He gets them past the editor because he's Stephen frickin' King. A tortured editor in thrall to WotC beancounters may feel comfortable about cutting scenes, characters and story willy-nilly out of a book by Ed Greenwood or Richard Lee Byers and instructing them to 'put in more fight scenes', but it would take considerably more courage and determination to make changes to a manuscript turned in by a man who could sell his used toilet paper if he signed it.
Incidentally, I feel that King is technicaly a very accomplished writer, familiar with a wide range of styles and methods. The style you may have seen him use in his popular horror books is deliberately chosen to evoke a sense of unease and nervousness and he is equally capable of writing a sense of urgency, of excitement or even of nostalgia; all depending on what the story demands.
Random use of profanity and sex does not evoke unease and nervousness. Run-on sentences from Hell do not make me excited or nostalgic.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Have you read his non-fiction book On Writing? It's all too easy to dismiss him as a popular novelist, but that is both unfair and inaccurate. The truth is that he's a master of his craft and that's why he's popular.
Who said I was dismissing him? I don't care if he's a popular novelist or not. If I like his stuff, it's not because he is or isn't popular. And I have enjoyed a lot of King tales, particularly some of the earlier ones.
But I will disagree that he is a master of his craft. And even if he was, it wouldn't matter for his popularity. Most readers don't care about the writing style, so long as it doesn't detract from the story and -- more importantly -- so long as the story itself is enjoyable. Stephen King sells books because he tells good stories. That's all. The best writing in the world isn't going to sell a story if the story itself sucks.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
or thought that a Realms novel had gratuitous sex and profanity.
Gratuitous?
Sociological research indicates that verbal taboo words and their use to relieve tension, incicate displeasure, etc. is nigh universal in human cultures. If I read a fantasy novel where the protagonists are threathened, disappointed, hurt or worse; but they never feel the need to vent their feelings with a well-chosen epiteth, I begin to suspect I'm not reading a story about humans or even people. I feel that I'm reading about some species far less interesting and one that's very hard to relate to in any way.
And sex? C'mon, even though we're gamers, I'm pretty sure we all have it.
Certainly we result from it. We can be pretty sure that everyone we know has experience of it. Not only is a a vital part-and-parcel of our society, culture and genetic makeup, it's also one of the major sources of friction in our world and friction is at the core of stories.
Any story about humans or a race resembling them in the slightest can't help but include sex and profanity, because, hell, the daily lives of everyone, from kings to peasants, include these things. Violence, however, violence is supposed to be much rarer than either of these things. Violence, also, unlike the breaking of made-up verbal taboos and the natural procreation of our species, is inherently harmful to people.
This doesn't mean that I don't want violence to feature in stories. Not at all, conflict is the meat of stories and violence is, whatever else it may be, conflict embodied. But I do wonder what kind of strage system of values could look upon casual violence as a perfectly valid form of entertainment while denigrating other, much more normal expressions of our humanity, that, incidentally, don't even hurt anyone.
Wow, you quoted my use of the word "gratuitous" and then proceeded to ignore it. That's rather interesting.
I am not saying I have any problem with sex or profanity in a story -- so long as it belongs there. When it doesn't develop the character or otherwise further the plot, it is therefore gratuitous. King has used sex and profanity to develop characters and further the plot -- but he's also used it for no readily apparent reason. And that's what I object to.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Most Realms-novels include far too much violence, treat the consequences far too lightly and all but ignore the psychological trauma suffered by characters. And I don't mean this in some sort of moral sense, I mean it in the sense that it detracts from the value of the story by using an important literary device poorly and too often.
I'd far rather have some 'gratuitous' sex and profanity that might serve to build characters and tell the story than the near-constant uninteresting battle scenes inserted at the express wish of corporate beancounters that we currently have to suffer.
You and I must be reading different Realms novels, then. The majority of the books do not have "near-constant uninteresting battle scenes". Some do, I will admit, but those books are a notable minority.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
There are just so many good books out there that no matter your personal tastes, you are bound to find enough good ones that you don't need to be reduced to reading mediocre ones. Unless those mediocre ones have other uses, such as giving you details about a gaming world you love.
You're mostly right: I do not need to be reduced to reading mediocre books. And whether or not the books I read are shared world, I don't often read mediocre books. If I do read one that's mediocre, I certainly don't read it again...
I've read shared world authors who do great in and out of shared worlds. I've read at least one shared world author who does noteworthy (not necessarily great, IMO) things in a shared world, and sucks outside of it. And I've read books by authors that have never set pen to paper in a shared world.
And the more I read, the more I think that it doesn't matter if a story is shared world or not. Why should the setting of a story be the sole deciding factor of a story's quality? That's like saying "Oh, I had a bad taco. Therefore, all Mexican food is bad." It's absolutely preposterous.
Go ahead and stare down your nose at me and all other readers of shared world fiction if you want. I'll be over here, reading a Realms novel and enjoying the fact that I rely on my own opinions, and not those of others. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Mkhaiwati
Learned Scribe
USA
252 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 19:29:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
In the absence of gaming utility for the books, there are much better novels available even for casual reading. Historical novelists like Colleen McCullough, C. S. Forester, Bernard Cornwell, Ellis Peters and Robert Graves stand far above the writers working in the Realms in quality. So do popular fantasy/horror writers like Dean Koontz and Stephen King. Even questionable quality thriller writers in the class of Tom Clancy, Grisham or Crichton are arguably superior.
And we once more have something subjective... I, for one, have little desire to read historical novels. I like Dean Koontz, but I find his stuff somewhat formulaic -- almost all of his main characters are drawn from a very small pool of archetypes, and he rarely mixes them up that much. And Stephen King... The man can tell a good story. But the way he tells some of those stories is simply atrocious. He may be far more successful than any Realms novelist, but I've never looked at a Realms novel and wondered how a hellaciously long run-on sentence got past the editor, or thought that a Realms novel had gratuitous sex and profanity.
And me, I'd far sooner reach for a novel set in a game world than many of the books by so-called great authors. Some of the stuff I've read -- particularly in school -- left me wondering very much why a book was considered a classic or why a novelist was considered good.
I'm shocked. Honestly, Hamster of Mischief, you should give a few a try. I read Cornwell and Peters (or did, she passed away a few years ago. One of my fav authors of all time *sniff*) Cornwell's books are good, but after a while one series looks like another (hero misunderstood, bad things happen to hero, women come in and out of picture continuously).
But Peters... I think even Ed has mentioned her a few times. Good mystery novels (Cadfael series) set in the time of the Stephen vs Matilda civil war on the English/Welsh border. It has a monk (herbalist and pacifist) who solves murders in a great setting. You can almost take the stories and put them in the Realms (to bring it around to FR) ... say perhaps in Greenfields, near Waterdeep. Excellent source for mining gaming plots. The series was turned into a tv series w/ Derek Jacobi. See if you can view these before you buy.
I could never get into King, tried three different novels and his writing style doesn't agree with me. Crichton has a very good book that I also would use in gaming settings... Eaters of the Dead (movie version, the Thirteenth Warrior) which is a good take of taking one person, transplanting them into a different culture, and have them fight something that should exist in legends. And it shows how legends are created in the process (the fire wyrm for example).
Try Peters or the Crichton book I mentioned, you might change your mind about historical novels. They make good gaming source material and are easily adapted to the Realms.
Edit: I meant that first line as jest. I am not looking down my nose at you, just offering a few suggestions and clarifications of another poster. I am thinking of the classic "I'm shocked! Shocked to find that gambling is going on here!" from Casablanca. |
"Behold the work of the old... let your heritage not be lost but bequeath it as a memory, treasure and blessing... Gather the lost and the hidden and preserve it for thy children."
"not nale. not-nale. thog help nail not-nale, not nale. and thog knot not-nale while nale nail not-nale. nale, not not-nale, now nail not-nale by leaving not-nale, not nale, in jail." OotS #367 |
Edited by - Mkhaiwati on 26 Aug 2008 19:43:23 |
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Shottglazz
Acolyte
Canada
49 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 20:25:18
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| Eaters of the Dead? Seriously? That book (IMO) was atrocious. Very poorly written - one of the few novels that got immeasurably better in the movie version. |
Shottglazz
"Take my love, Take my land, Take me where I cannot stand;
I don't care, I'm still free. You can't take the sky from me." |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 20:28:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Shottglazz
Eaters of the Dead? Seriously? That book (IMO) was atrocious. Very poorly written - one of the few novels that got immeasurably better in the movie version.
Unlike Sphere (IMO). |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 20:44:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And yet I still disagree. Some of my fave books have been Realms novels.
Eh... really?
I mean, to each his own, of course, and I know that humans differ widely in their tastes... but, really?
I can't wrap my head around it, sorry. It's like someone just told me that some of his favourite meals he had at a highway diner.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
By saying that no matter what my taste is, someone outside the Realms has done it better, you're falling into that "shared world fiction isn't as good as independent fiction" cliché that is so prevalent in the writing industry.
Some 'clichés', as you say, are prevailent because they happen to be true.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I have never seen a reason to pigeonhole books into shared world/non-shared world categories, so I consider them all from the same standpoint: do I like the story? And for me, as a reader, how much I enjoy the story is the only concern.
You won't know whether you'll enjoy the story until you read it. And the world contains too many books for us to read them all. Therefore, we have to have some means to decide what we will read and what we will not.
I can't know that all game fiction will be inferior to other fiction. Of course not. But I know it's written with far too much editorial and marketing input for my tastes, I know that when authors become successful enough, they tend to want to move away from it and I know that none of the authors that I rate among the best today are doing it.
As such, I'm pretty safe staying away from it. Unless, as I've said, I mean to use it in a game.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Random use of profanity and sex does not evoke unease and nervousness. Run-on sentences from Hell do not make me excited or nostalgic.
What can I say? It seems to work on a lot of people. Perhaps you're an outlier?
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Who said I was dismissing him? I don't care if he's a popular novelist or not. If I like his stuff, it's not because he is or isn't popular. And I have enjoyed a lot of King tales, particularly some of the earlier ones.
Correlation, my dear boy. The more popular he is, the more likely that you'll like him, purely on the basis that human beings appear to like many of the same things.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
But I will disagree that he is a master of his craft. And even if he was, it wouldn't matter for his popularity. Most readers don't care about the writing style, so long as it doesn't detract from the story and -- more importantly -- so long as the story itself is enjoyable. Stephen King sells books because he tells good stories. That's all. The best writing in the world isn't going to sell a story if the story itself sucks.
I can't agree with that. Writing can be a work of art, as much or even more than considerations such as the 'story'. Shakespeare often took his plots, characters or scenes wholesale from other playwrights. That doesn't alter the fact that he was an immortal genius, since he could write these stories in a way that is still quoted four centuries after his time.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Wow, you quoted my use of the word "gratuitous" and then proceeded to ignore it. That's rather interesting.
I am not saying I have any problem with sex or profanity in a story -- so long as it belongs there. When it doesn't develop the character or otherwise further the plot, it is therefore gratuitous. King has used sex and profanity to develop characters and further the plot -- but he's also used it for no readily apparent reason. And that's what I object to.
I don't believe that good novels must have a clearly defined plot and gloss over everything that doesn't further it. That sort of thing leads to rather picayune literature.
What's the plot of Ulysses? Or even War and Peace? Can we agree on a single plot synopsis of Gerard de Nerval's Sylvie? Is there a plot in The Old Man and the Sea?
Plot is what you make of it. All dialogue serves to enchance characterisation. If anything in a novel can be clearly identified as 'gratuitous', that's bad, but I don't see any reason to single out sex or language.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
You and I must be reading different Realms novels, then. The majority of the books do not have "near-constant uninteresting battle scenes". Some do, I will admit, but those books are a notable minority.
Name me some Realms-novels that you'd consider literary masterpieces, game fiction or not. I have trouble thinking of any, at least.
I can say that novels like Ed's Spellfire and Silverfall suffered from terrible pacing and a desire to stuff far too much action in far too little text. Sure, he blames editors, but that doesn't change the fact that the finished product that we receive is nearly illegible.
The Year of Rogue Dragons trilogy was awful, just awful. I won't solely blame Byers, as I suspect that the marketing department of WotC had more to do with the flaws of the novels than he did, but that's just another thing that makes game setting novels worse than novels where the author has more creative freedom.
Some of the novels about Thazienne Uskevren have had pacing that left me feeling vaguely nauseous, not to mention really weak plots. Spending a little time on the characters, scenery and story; in the place of another fight scene, would have benefitted the novels.
Paul S. Kemp's Erevis Cale stories I like, but because I like them, I'd also like them to be about twice as long. That way, it wouldn't feel like the pace was constantly being forced and the battles would have more meaning.
Even if we take Realms-stories that are light in combat content, they still feature a much, much greater number of fight scenes than nearly any classic fiction I can name. That's not a failure of the Forgotten Realms, I hasten to add, but a simple consequence of the tastes of the target audience.
Most American teenagers love violence and are able to stomach far more of it than they are allowed to glimpse of sex or plain speech. If the violence is pointless or even detracts from the story, that doesn't really seem to matter to the core audience, which is and will always be hardly literate anyway. Hardcore WoW players picking up a new fantasy book aren't going to care about charactersation or plot and whether we like it or not, there are far more of that kind of video player than there are people who like good books.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
You're mostly right: I do not need to be reduced to reading mediocre books. And whether or not the books I read are shared world, I don't often read mediocre books. If I do read one that's mediocre, I certainly don't read it again...
I've read shared world authors who do great in and out of shared worlds. I've read at least one shared world author who does noteworthy (not necessarily great, IMO) things in a shared world, and sucks outside of it. And I've read books by authors that have never set pen to paper in a shared world.
And the more I read, the more I think that it doesn't matter if a story is shared world or not. Why should the setting of a story be the sole deciding factor of a story's quality? That's like saying "Oh, I had a bad taco. Therefore, all Mexican food is bad." It's absolutely preposterous.
That's not the point. No one is claiming that there is a causal relationship. Merely, that the correlation that exists is strong enough to be a valid indicator.
Sure, a literary genius could decide to write in a shared universe, for some reasons of his own. But, given that most writers have to pay bills and like to enjoy luxuries, most will rather seek out other writing jobs that pay far more and enjoy more prestige.
By analogy, I'm not claiming that being born English makes a man a better soccer player than being born somewhere else. But that doesn't change the fact that the best players from leagues in countries like Denmark, Norway or Iceland aren't playing in our home leagues. They want to play in the Premier League, or failing that in the Serie A, Bundesliga or other top soccer leagues.
Talent usually goes where money and fame is on offer. And like it or not, that's not to be found writing for a shared game-world setting.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Go ahead and stare down your nose at me and all other readers of shared world fiction if you want. I'll be over here, reading a Realms novel and enjoying the fact that I rely on my own opinions, and not those of others.
What makes you think that because I judge shared-world game novels inferior to the best literature available, I do so from other motives than that of relying on my own opinions?
There isn't a conspiracy of ivory-tower literary critics out there, you know. Game fiction is considered worse than the best examples of other fiction because most unbiased people can hardly reach another conclusion.
Sure, it's subjective, but so is beauty and we have no trouble saying that 18-year-old girls are generally prettier than 80-year-old men. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Mkhaiwati
Learned Scribe
USA
252 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 21:35:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Shottglazz
Eaters of the Dead? Seriously? That book (IMO) was atrocious. Very poorly written - one of the few novels that got immeasurably better in the movie version.
What can I say? I liked it. I liked it as a good exercise in writing (making Beowulf a more believable story), taking the proverbial fish outta water (the Arab into Viking culture), and the translating real events into legends (the fire wyrm example).
The writing style clicked for me. I read authors, not so much subject matter. If a writer's style appeals to me, I keep reading more from that author. FR authors that "click" for me are Cunningham, Kemp, and Baker. I might add Rosemary Jones, but I have only read the one novel. |
"Behold the work of the old... let your heritage not be lost but bequeath it as a memory, treasure and blessing... Gather the lost and the hidden and preserve it for thy children."
"not nale. not-nale. thog help nail not-nale, not nale. and thog knot not-nale while nale nail not-nale. nale, not not-nale, now nail not-nale by leaving not-nale, not nale, in jail." OotS #367 |
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Mkhaiwati
Learned Scribe
USA
252 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 21:42:36
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quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
quote:
Originally posted by Shottglazz
Eaters of the Dead? Seriously? That book (IMO) was atrocious. Very poorly written - one of the few novels that got immeasurably better in the movie version.
Unlike Sphere (IMO).
And I also forgot, liking a book (or not) is completely at the whim of a reader. I really dislike King's stuff. I cannot read or get into them.... at all. Still, bajillions of his books sell every year. So, obviously, I am out of touch with the majority of readers of his.
This is why I also don't say that something "sucks" or anything; it is very subjective to the reader. (I know you didn't, which is why you put IMO) This applies to the 4e and FRCG, also. 4e isn't for me, I have stated this before. I can find a lot wrong with the principle behind it, IMO. But if it works for others, more power to ya. Same with the new Realms. I hate what they have done. Others love it. I won't be buying it but it doesn't make it bad as a book, just bad for me. |
"Behold the work of the old... let your heritage not be lost but bequeath it as a memory, treasure and blessing... Gather the lost and the hidden and preserve it for thy children."
"not nale. not-nale. thog help nail not-nale, not nale. and thog knot not-nale while nale nail not-nale. nale, not not-nale, now nail not-nale by leaving not-nale, not nale, in jail." OotS #367 |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 21:53:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
There isn't a conspiracy of ivory-tower literary critics out there, you know. Game fiction is considered worse than the best examples of other fiction because most unbiased people can hardly reach another conclusion.
There is no such thing as an unbiased person let alond an unbiased critic. There are a few that can remail above their biases but most do not.
Your statement :
"Game fiction is considered worse than the best examples of other fiction because most unbiased people can hardly reach another conclusion. "
Is Horribly biased, by what I do not want to know, but it seems you should let go of it and try being positive about the other types of writing you like instead of running down "game fiction", particularly the way you argue it , it is hard not to take it as a slight to anyone who enjoys it. Not sure if that is your intent or not, but it feels that way.
I think King's stuff is hooky garbage du jour and Kafka is just a load of crap, but I won't try to make anyone think the same. I am happy for anyone whos gets enjoyment froma certain genre or writer, even if I do not and I applaud them for reading!
I find myself tired of the condiscending tone this scroll has taken and am off to a "brighter" section of the Library.
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A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 22:18:41
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Suggesting that not all art is equally good is condescending now?
'tis true that we only have subjective judgments to go on, but it doesn't follow that everyone's judgment is equally well thought out or valid. One's personal taste is perfectly valid when it comes to deciding for oneself what to read, but it's a poor basis for critique.
But all that aside, I don't think that the statement that better authors are more likely to seek more rewards is subjective. It's a pretty basic economic fact. The best people go where the incentives are.
Game fiction writers are paid less and have less control over their works than writers that have already established themselves as independent writers. Therefore, as a general rule, the best authors will move away from game fiction writing. There are exceptions, as there always will be in the field of human motivation, but the basic correlation is there.
Surely, that's not controversial? |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 22:24:40
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That isn't controversial, but you tone is somewhat disparaging to those that write for game fiction. Also, some of it is financial. Sure, they'd like to be independent just like Stephen King, etc., but when the bills are due...
Also, there are many writers of game fiction (beloved Ed, RAS, Weis & Hickman) that have gone into the independent writing as well. But return to the game fiction due to love of the characters and setting.
As for the subjective matter relating to art, the most-valued art object (at this time) is 'Starry Night' by Van Gogh. There are those that would say that the imagery and technic is almost childish, especially when compared with the realism and high detail of artists like Da Vinci. It all comes down to what you like and screw what 'they' say is good. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 22:36:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
That isn't controversial, but you tone is somewhat disparaging to those that write for game fiction. Also, some of it is financial. Sure, they'd like to be independent just like Stephen King, etc., but when the bills are due...
Seven Heavens, no! Saying that they're not as good as the best people of their profession in the whole wide world isn't disparaging. Most of these people are far better writers than I am and I recognise that. And I don't think that it's wrong of them to write for a game setting at all.
Not everyone can be the best. It's perfectly fine to be just good enough to pay the bills.
Remember old Baerauble:
The gods do not grant to us all The shining mantle of the hero. Do what you can, And it will be enough.
I just reserve the right to say and feel that some writers are better than others. And to seek out books by those I feel are better in preference to the inferior ones.
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Also, there are many writers of game fiction (beloved Ed, RAS, Weis & Hickman) that have gone into the independent writing as well. But return to the game fiction due to love of the characters and setting.
Indeed and as I said, there are always exceptions. But it is no coincidence that the authors you named are among the best authors writing for WotC and they are also the ones able to break out from game fiction writing exclusively.
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
As for the subjective matter relating to art, the most-valued art object (at this time) is 'Starry Night' by Van Gogh. There are those that would say that the imagery and technic is almost childish, especially when compared with the realism and high detail of artists like Da Vinci. It all comes down to what you like and screw what 'they' say is good.
Values of original paintings are subject to many variables, among them historical significance, projected future value, etc.
It's not solely or even significantly based on how much someone likes the picture. If it was, copies of it could do just as well. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36781 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 22:37:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And yet I still disagree. Some of my fave books have been Realms novels.
Eh... really?
I mean, to each his own, of course, and I know that humans differ widely in their tastes... but, really?
I can't wrap my head around it, sorry. It's like someone just told me that some of his favourite meals he had at a highway diner.
It's not impossible. I once had a really good omelette in a strip joint.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
By saying that no matter what my taste is, someone outside the Realms has done it better, you're falling into that "shared world fiction isn't as good as independent fiction" cliché that is so prevalent in the writing industry.
Some 'clichés', as you say, are prevailent because they happen to be true.
That doesn't mean all clichés are true. Considering that some stuff by the so-called 'literary geniuses' is sleep-inducing, just about anything else is better.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I have never seen a reason to pigeonhole books into shared world/non-shared world categories, so I consider them all from the same standpoint: do I like the story? And for me, as a reader, how much I enjoy the story is the only concern.
You won't know whether you'll enjoy the story until you read it. And the world contains too many books for us to read them all. Therefore, we have to have some means to decide what we will read and what we will not.
I can't know that all game fiction will be inferior to other fiction. Of course not. But I know it's written with far too much editorial and marketing input for my tastes, I know that when authors become successful enough, they tend to want to move away from it and I know that none of the authors that I rate among the best today are doing it.
As such, I'm pretty safe staying away from it. Unless, as I've said, I mean to use it in a game.
So because you don't like the editing and marketing, it's not worth reading? By that correlary, I'm assuming you only go to indie flicks and never watch any Hollywood blockbusters, and that you watch no TV that isn't educational. Hells, do you even eat in restaurants?
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Random use of profanity and sex does not evoke unease and nervousness. Run-on sentences from Hell do not make me excited or nostalgic.
What can I say? It seems to work on a lot of people. Perhaps you're an outlier?
So you really think that using sex and profanity when it's not appropriate is a good thing? That's odd, considering the stock you place in 'literary geniuses' -- since a literary genius wouldn't use gratuitous sex and profanity.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Who said I was dismissing him? I don't care if he's a popular novelist or not. If I like his stuff, it's not because he is or isn't popular. And I have enjoyed a lot of King tales, particularly some of the earlier ones.
Correlation, my dear boy. The more popular he is, the more likely that you'll like him, purely on the basis that human beings appear to like many of the same things.
Not at all. I have a tendency to avoid things I think are too hyped. And more than once, when I have been exposed to something over-hyped, I've wondered what the hype was about. As I said, I have my own opinions.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
But I will disagree that he is a master of his craft. And even if he was, it wouldn't matter for his popularity. Most readers don't care about the writing style, so long as it doesn't detract from the story and -- more importantly -- so long as the story itself is enjoyable. Stephen King sells books because he tells good stories. That's all. The best writing in the world isn't going to sell a story if the story itself sucks.
I can't agree with that. Writing can be a work of art, as much or even more than considerations such as the 'story'. Shakespeare often took his plots, characters or scenes wholesale from other playwrights. That doesn't alter the fact that he was an immortal genius, since he could write these stories in a way that is still quoted four centuries after his time.
And what does Shakespeare have to do with Stephen King? Shakespeare -- if he even wrote his own stuff -- lifted liberally from Greco-Roman mythology. And he told stories in a way that was, in his time, popular. Considering how much weight is given to "classics", his continued popularity doesn't really mean a whole lot. A lot of the so-called classics only remain popular because, generation after generation, they are forced on students and told that these are wonderful tales. And a very small portion of those students remain awake long enough to read them, and since they're told the tales are great, they buy into the "classics" myth. Again, it's not their opinion, it's an opinion that's being given to them.
Shakespeare may have had a gift for clever turns of phrase. But that doesn't change the fact that he was telling stories people enjoyed. The stories are what's key, here. All the fancy writing in the world is not going to save a boring story. Theoretically, Shakespeare could have written about some Joe Blow who watched a play without it having any impact on him, tossed back a few rounds in the pub afterward, and then went home, went to bed, and got up the next day not even thinking of the play. You think any number of "wherefores" and "withers" are going to make that into a story that stands the test of time?
Writing is an artform, yes. But the tale being told is more important than the way it's told.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Wow, you quoted my use of the word "gratuitous" and then proceeded to ignore it. That's rather interesting.
I am not saying I have any problem with sex or profanity in a story -- so long as it belongs there. When it doesn't develop the character or otherwise further the plot, it is therefore gratuitous. King has used sex and profanity to develop characters and further the plot -- but he's also used it for no readily apparent reason. And that's what I object to.
I don't believe that good novels must have a clearly defined plot and gloss over everything that doesn't further it. That sort of thing leads to rather picayune literature.
Who said gloss over anything that doesn't further the plot? I'm saying don't add stuff that detracts from the plot by sticking out like a sore thumb.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
What's the plot of Ulysses? Or even War and Peace? Can we agree on a single plot synopsis of Gerard de Nerval's Sylvie? Is there a plot in The Old Man and the Sea?
Damned if I know. I've never touched any of those tales. But it occurs to me that if two people can't agree on what the plot is -- or if there is a plot -- then it must not be a well-told story.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Plot is what you make of it. All dialogue serves to enchance characterisation. If anything in a novel can be clearly identified as 'gratuitous', that's bad, but I don't see any reason to single out sex or language.
I singled those out because that is what King makes gratuitous use of. Sex that advances the plot, great. Dialogue -- be it foul or refined -- that suits the character, fine. Sex that's just there, and is noteworthy because it is neither a logical occurrence nor something that does anything at all for the plot, not great. Gratuitous.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
You and I must be reading different Realms novels, then. The majority of the books do not have "near-constant uninteresting battle scenes". Some do, I will admit, but those books are a notable minority.
Name me some Realms-novels that you'd consider literary masterpieces, game fiction or not. I have trouble thinking of any, at least.
Why does a novel have to be a literary masterpiece to be enjoyable? That seems a rather elitist attitude.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
I can say that novels like Ed's Spellfire and Silverfall suffered from terrible pacing and a desire to stuff far too much action in far too little text. Sure, he blames editors, but that doesn't change the fact that the finished product that we receive is nearly illegible.
You know what? I'm no fan of either one of those books. But you're not going to convince me that they would have been any better had they not been written for a shared world. Hells, can Spellfire even be said to be a shared world novel? It was the first novel specifically written for the setting, written by the creator of that setting.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
The Year of Rogue Dragons trilogy was awful, just awful. I won't solely blame Byers, as I suspect that the marketing department of WotC had more to do with the flaws of the novels than he did, but that's just another thing that makes game setting novels worse than novels where the author has more creative freedom.
I rather enjoyed those novels, myself. My only quibbles -- one of which is a stylistic one that the author discussed with me -- was the party composition and the use of the word "translate". I don't know why we had the first thing, but the second thing was purely stylistic -- the word was being used correctly, but since it doesn't appear in fantasy as oft as "teleport", I found it jarring.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Some of the novels about Thazienne Uskevren have had pacing that left me feeling vaguely nauseous, not to mention really weak plots. Spending a little time on the characters, scenery and story; in the place of another fight scene, would have benefitted the novels.
I've only read one of the Tazi novels... But I must say, I don't think fight scenes were an issue. They weren't long enough to be detracting from anything else that could have been in the novel. Besides, if I'm reading a fantasy novel, I expect some combat to happen. You may want to read books about characters that sit around and sip tea, but not me.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Paul S. Kemp's Erevis Cale stories I like, but because I like them, I'd also like them to be about twice as long. That way, it wouldn't feel like the pace was constantly being forced and the battles would have more meaning.
I didn't feel that the pace was forced... I kind of enjoyed those stories, even though the characters didn't interest me in the slightest. The ending of the Erevis Cale trilogy, however, is another matter.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Even if we take Realms-stories that are light in combat content, they still feature a much, much greater number of fight scenes than nearly any classic fiction I can name. That's not a failure of the Forgotten Realms, I hasten to add, but a simple consequence of the tastes of the target audience.
Oh, noes! Someone is actually catering to their target audience!?! What are they thinking?
And again you go back to classic fiction... Comparing classic fiction and contemporary fantasy isn't a fair comparison by any stretch -- it's the whole apples and oranges thing. Just because you like one more doesn't mean the other is bad.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Most American teenagers love violence and are able to stomach far more of it than they are allowed to glimpse of sex or plain speech. If the violence is pointless or even detracts from the story, that doesn't really seem to matter to the core audience, which is and will always be hardly literate anyway. Hardcore WoW players picking up a new fantasy book aren't going to care about charactersation or plot and whether we like it or not, there are far more of that kind of video player than there are people who like good books.
So? If you're not the target demographic, don't complain that you don't like the book. I don't complain about the existence of chick flicks because I'm a guy!
Besides, how many "hardly literate" people do you know of that are avid readers?
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
You're mostly right: I do not need to be reduced to reading mediocre books. And whether or not the books I read are shared world, I don't often read mediocre books. If I do read one that's mediocre, I certainly don't read it again...
I've read shared world authors who do great in and out of shared worlds. I've read at least one shared world author who does noteworthy (not necessarily great, IMO) things in a shared world, and sucks outside of it. And I've read books by authors that have never set pen to paper in a shared world.
And the more I read, the more I think that it doesn't matter if a story is shared world or not. Why should the setting of a story be the sole deciding factor of a story's quality? That's like saying "Oh, I had a bad taco. Therefore, all Mexican food is bad." It's absolutely preposterous.
That's not the point. No one is claiming that there is a causal relationship. Merely, that the correlation that exists is strong enough to be a valid indicator.
No such correlation exists, because you're comparing dissimilar materials. Saying a correlation exists is like buying into Bobby Henderson's tongue-in-check assertation that there's a direct relationship between global warming and the world's dwindling number of pirates (google Flying Spaghetti Monster, if you're not familiar with this).
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Sure, a literary genius could decide to write in a shared universe, for some reasons of his own. But, given that most writers have to pay bills and like to enjoy luxuries, most will rather seek out other writing jobs that pay far more and enjoy more prestige.
Ah, another elitist sentiment: if there is no money in it, it sucks.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
By analogy, I'm not claiming that being born English makes a man a better soccer player than being born somewhere else. But that doesn't change the fact that the best players from leagues in countries like Denmark, Norway or Iceland aren't playing in our home leagues. They want to play in the Premier League, or failing that in the Serie A, Bundesliga or other top soccer leagues.
Talent usually goes where money and fame is on offer. And like it or not, that's not to be found writing for a shared game-world setting.
Ah, so if they're not born in the right place, and if they never have a chance to make it into one of the top leagues, then there is no way they can possibly be good. I see.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Go ahead and stare down your nose at me and all other readers of shared world fiction if you want. I'll be over here, reading a Realms novel and enjoying the fact that I rely on my own opinions, and not those of others.
What makes you think that because I judge shared-world game novels inferior to the best literature available, I do so from other motives than that of relying on my own opinions?
The fact that you're parroting every literazi comment I've ever seen? The fact that you're refusing to consider something on its own merits, rather than those imposed by others?
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
There isn't a conspiracy of ivory-tower literary critics out there, you know. Game fiction is considered worse than the best examples of other fiction because most unbiased people can hardly reach another conclusion.
By the literazi, yes. Anyone else is ignored by the literazi, because -- like any group that has ever existed -- they value their own opinions more highly than those of others. Just because a small group of people sit around and tell each other how good books with apparently questionable plots are (the ones you mentioned!), it doesn't mean that their opinion has any more merit than anyone elses.
I'm not biased -- I'm taking everything on an equal basis. Bias is saying things like "shared world fiction is inherently inferior".
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Sure, it's subjective, but so is beauty and we have no trouble saying that 18-year-old girls are generally prettier than 80-year-old men.
Yes, but the difference is that this is an opinion we each form for ourselves. There is no small group selected by their own shared conceits and elitist opinions that is trying to dictate to others what is and isn't beautiful.
You know, it's funny that we're even having this discussion. Most people that only care about "literary geniuses" wouldn't touch role-playing, and most role-players have a tendency to be more willing to think for themselves than a lot of non-role-players. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36781 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 22:45:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Seven Heavens, no! Saying that they're not as good as the best people of their profession in the whole wide world isn't disparaging. Most of these people are far better writers than I am and I recognise that. And I don't think that it's wrong of them to write for a game setting at all.
Not everyone can be the best. It's perfectly fine to be just good enough to pay the bills.
Remember old Baerauble:
The gods do not grant to us all The shining mantle of the hero. Do what you can, And it will be enough.
No, but what you are saying is that no writer of shared world fiction could possibly be as good as who doesn't write shared world fiction. That is highly disparaging.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
I just reserve the right to say and feel that some writers are better than others. And to seek out books by those I feel are better in preference to the inferior ones.
And no one is disputing that right. We are disputing, however, the assertation that since we're not reading what you think is good, we are therefore reading something bad.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Also, there are many writers of game fiction (beloved Ed, RAS, Weis & Hickman) that have gone into the independent writing as well. But return to the game fiction due to love of the characters and setting.
Indeed and as I said, there are always exceptions. But it is no coincidence that the authors you named are among the best authors writing for WotC and they are also the ones able to break out from game fiction writing exclusively.
But you also said earlier that the talent didn't go to shared worlds, and that because of that, no shared world fiction was as good as non-shared world fiction.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
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Mkhaiwati
Learned Scribe
USA
252 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 23:50:12
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Wow, those are some long replys/quotes....
(looks around for Stick of Returning-Moderator-to-Topic +1)
*poke*
*poke*
Since 4e came out, I have found myself drifting away from D&D as a whole. The last group I was in disintegrated and I have been gameless for almost a year. I am going back over my notes of my game of choice (not D&D) and my homebrew setting for it. Maybe I'll start up again.
If I would continue w/ 3.5 or Pathfinder, I would look to continue FR pre-spellplague and ignore everything related to it, as well as the Lady Penitent and other novels altering the Godscape.
I do intend on checking out a few other settings that sound good to me. Golarion and Kalamar both sound good, and Echoes of Heaven has seen good reviews for a small press item. Still, none of them compare to FR.
Strangely, on the notes of my homebrew setting, I had asked Ed a couple of questions regarding world-building a year or so ago. He never replied. Since my questions were answered by the new FRCG, I can see why.
*one question dealt with races and gods... how do other races see the human looking gods as it seems some are more powerful than the racial gods. Mystra could pound half of the orc pantheon into dust if she wanted too, how does that affect the races. Now I know... most "human" gods have been playing as racial deities, too. Selune=Sehanine, etc. |
"Behold the work of the old... let your heritage not be lost but bequeath it as a memory, treasure and blessing... Gather the lost and the hidden and preserve it for thy children."
"not nale. not-nale. thog help nail not-nale, not nale. and thog knot not-nale while nale nail not-nale. nale, not not-nale, now nail not-nale by leaving not-nale, not nale, in jail." OotS #367 |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2008 : 00:29:52
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| As for an alternative to the Realms, try Micheal Moorcock's Elric stories. They are being re-packaged/re-printed as Elric- Chronicles of the Last Emperor of Melnibone. I know the first 2 volumes are now out and without saying anything else about it, if you like Drizzt......you will see from what well he sprang! |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2008 : 00:37:16
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First off, this thread split early into two seperate - but related - topics. Since the OP has already picked the path his train of thought was directed at (novels, not games), I will address only that.
Then, of course, we get into the sticky business of recommending novels, which is a matter of taste and highly subjective. I know tons of people who like Terry Brooks, but I could never get past the first few chapters of the first book.
I have to highly recommend Jack Vance to any gamer, so they can see where it all started (and where the roots of D&D first took hold in Gary Gygax's young mind). Although technically Sci-Fi, it reads like pure fantasy. In that same vein are Frank Herbert's Dune series, and Robert Silverberg's Madripoor Novels. Both series are great, and easy to forget they aren't fantasy per se. My favorite of all-time in that blended genre is the massive novel Empire of the East, which is actually a set of three novellas, and the only book I've read five times.
Another magnificent series that is Sci-Fi but would appeal to any fantasy lover are the Well World novels, by Jack L. Chalker. Not only are they simply a wonderful read, but I had a DM who ran a game set on the world that the novels revolve around (which is easy to do, because magic works in those Sci-Fi books). A Pure pleasure, and I highly recommend them.
Stepping away from that and into more traditional fantasy, you have both the sword of Truth and the Wheel of Time novels, and while both series are very adult in the issues they address, the constant barrage of 'badness' that assails the main character in both series gets tiresome after the seventh or eighth book (in BOTH). I'd still recommend them, though, if you like that Byzantine-style plot structure.
Do I even need to mention Ursula K. Le Guin's Earthsea trilogy? Fantasy at its best - her other books are also excellent.
For lighter, more pulpy (yet good) reads, someone already mentioned the Conan stories by Howard, and I place the Elric novels by Michael Moorcock right alongside those for 'light but fun' reading (and also as a great set of idea-springboards for D&D adventures).
For more generic but traditional fantasy fair that is still enjoyable, you have the stuff by David Eddings. His work is pretty formulaic, so it tends to read all the same after awhile, but you should at least try his first (and best), The Belgariad. His other stuff is good, but that work defines him. Even more derivitive and generic are the Mithgar novels by Dennis L. McKiernan. They are probably the most "Tolkienesque" things I have ever read, but they still have a certain charm all their own (and he freely admits that he copied aspects of Middle-Earth). If you ever wanted to read more stories about Tolkien's Hobbits, you could do a lot worse then reading about Mr. McKiernan's Warrows.
Two more series of note are both semi-classic now, and while both use elements of sci-Fi, they are definately more in the 'fantasy' family of works. The first are the World of Tiers series, by Philip José Farmer, and the Chronicles of Amber by Roger Zelazny. They are similar in theme, and both provide a good backdrop to place D&D games in (they use a mega-verse concept of alternate realities).
And no list would be complete without mentioning the utterly ridiculous yet delightful Xanth novels by Piers Anthony. You need to have a potent anti-pun shield, and a good sense of Humor, but I had a lot of fun with them in my early days of reading/gaming (much to the chagrin of my pun-hating Greyhawk players).
Lastly, I have to recommend two things that step outside of the normal fantasy genre; Asimov is a MUST, even if you don't like Sci-Fi. His writing at least makes you think, which is a lot more then I can say about a lot of modern writers. You can start anywhere, but I started with his Foundation series, which is THE classic. All of his stories are gems, though, and towerds the end of his life he started linking all the disparate novels from his long and prolific career into one, huge mega-story - truly amazing, when one realizes he wrote in all different time periods and about such a wide range of subjects.
The second one is dark - VERY Dark - but also very good, and thats why I'm recommending it here. Its a collection of short horror stories called The Throne of Bones by Brian Mcnaughton. Its set in a fantasy world, but this guy makes Ravenloft look like a tea party. Warning: Leave you Christian morality and sensibilites at the door with this one - necrophilia is just one of the disgustingly morbid things he covers.
I probably forgot hundreds of other novels and series I enjoyed, and that's just a brief list of the ones that stand-out in my memory the most.
Hope that helps --- Mark |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 27 Aug 2008 00:42:28 |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2008 : 00:46:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I know tons of people who like Terry Brooks, but I could never get past the first few chapters of the first book.
To that, I would suggest starting with the Elfstones of Shannara. I like the Sword of Shannara, but even I admit that it is probably his worst book; however, I give him credit since it was his first book he ever wrote and it is better than many other "first books" that I have read. |
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2008 : 01:05:10
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I'm really enjoying Erikson's Malazan Book of the Fallen novels. Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun and either of J. Gregory Keyes' series are excellent.
Farther afield, Kelly Link's two volumes of short stories are extraordinary. |
My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36781 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2008 : 01:23:05
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quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I know tons of people who like Terry Brooks, but I could never get past the first few chapters of the first book.
To that, I would suggest starting with the Elfstones of Shannara. I like the Sword of Shannara, but even I admit that it is probably his worst book; however, I give him credit since it was his first book he ever wrote and it is better than many other "first books" that I have read.
Sword is basically a condensed and retold version of the entire Lord of the Rings trilogy. It's really not the best way to get into Shannara.
My biggest problem with the book was how the characters misinterpreted Bremen's prophecy. He said one person wouldn't reach the other side of the mountain, but that they would be the first to see the Sword. How that was read to mean someone was going to die is utterly beyond me. |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2008 : 09:46:30
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Just outta interest, the OP did not asked for novels, did he?
Terry Brooks ... I got hooked to fantasy literature via his Elfstones series. Those either side of that aren't that bad, but everything after that, well, not my cup o'tea.
Wagner's Kane double is also quite good. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2008 : 11:21:27
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My dear Wooly, you appear frightfully opposed to some nebulously defined group of people, whose views you homogenise and attribute to me, sometimes at the expense of what I actually wrote. Moreover, you appear so incensed by the existence of this conspiracy of literate people, telling everyone else how to think, that you stoop to ad hominem arguments, name-calling and general sneering.
Very well. You're the moderator, you probably know better than me what constitutes civil discourse in this neck of the woods. If it's all the same to you, though, I'll not indulge in it myself.
I hardly think that this needs to be stated, but for the record, there is no small group of secret leaders in literary circles. No one has control over all literary criticism or even a significant part of it. There is no membership pin and no Literazi Thought Police (TM).
What appears to you to be the parroting of views is simply the result of the vast majority appreciating similar things about writing and consequently praising them. That's no different than any other field, in all of which, despite some individual differences in approach, there is broad consensus about what makes for a good practisioner in the field in question and what makes a bad one.
I have no desire to adopt an antagonistic tone. Surely, a discussion about literature can be carried out without rancour? I know Kissenger is apocryphally reputed to have remarked that 'academic politics are so vicious precisely because the stakes are so low', but surely reasonable men may strive for amity in academia?
I think the root of your defensive tone can be found in an erraneous assumption about the confluence of personal likes and dislikes and the artistic value of something. One need not have anything to do with the other.
When I say that game setting fiction is 'bad', I mean that it does not generally exhibit those qualities that mark a good writer and that it is therefore not calculated to appeal to the tastes of most readers. That judgment, incidentally, is supposed to be made without any reference to my personal views on the fiction in question. In practice, of course there is potential for bias, but the ideal is there. By analogy, consider the difference between being personally attracted to a person and judging his or her appearance as part of a beauty contest.
Of course, it is not impossible to like fiction despite knowing that it is, strictly speaking, not very good fiction. In that vein, I can name, for example, The Mage in the Iron Mask, which is truly representative of nearly everything that is wrong with game fiction... but which I nevertheless like. Perhaps the central conceit of the story is so manifestedly ridiculous that I read it as satire, perhaps I'm a sucker for a joke in poor taste, perhaps a lot of things. The fact remains, I liked it.
The same goes for other things. You can like bad food, bad wine and even bad art. De gustibus non est disputandum. But liking something isn't the same as using your critical reasoning to judge it good or bad. One is purely personal, purely emotional, but the other employs our trained intellect. By judging thusly, we try to predict what others will like and what will last.
To use yet another analogy, I may personally like hamburgers much more than I like ratatouille niçoise. But I'll readily concede that, in general, ratatouille is better food; meaning that it's made by more skilled chefs, better incredients and more care.
I don't see how that's disparaging to most people working to make hamburgers. Sure, some of them may be very good at making hamburgers*, but if they want to be accounted good chefs, they will generally move away from making just one meal.
*Though I'm willing to bet that most of the people in the world who make their living through frying burgers aren't long-term professionals at it and don't necessarily try to make the best burgers they can (most of the big chains are trying to sell as many burgers as they can, not make the best burgers they can). |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36781 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2008 : 14:26:32
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Me, name-calling and sneering? You were the one that said no shared world fiction could possibly be as good as anything not shared world. You were the one that chose to harp on the so-called literary giants, and to imply that nothing was worth reading if it wasn't by one of these giants. If that's not sneering, I don't know what is.
Rebuttal is not name-calling. And when someone acts and talks like one of the self-proclaimed literary elite, it's pretty safe to assume that's what they are.
You accuse me of the very things you did, when all I've been trying to say is that everyone should have their own opinion.
This vast majority you speak of exists only in your mind. If the vast majority of readers really agreed with you, then no Realms title -- or any other shared world fiction -- would have ever hit the New York Times bestseller list. And books like the Harry Potter series and The Da Vinci Code never would have done all that, because everyone was sitting around reading Ulysses and wondering what the plot was. As that is clearly not the case, it shows that your vast majority doesn't exist.
My whole point is that any tale written is worth being considered on its own merits, without any preconceived notions. When you come in here and say that no Realms novel could ever compare with a non-Realms novel, you are not only insulting every single reader who walks these halls, you are insulting every one of the authors who walks with us. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 27 Aug 2008 14:29:24 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2008 : 14:56:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Me, name-calling and sneering? You were the one that said no shared world fiction could possibly be as good as anything not shared world. You were the one that chose to harp on the so-called literary giants, and to imply that nothing was worth reading if it wasn't by one of these giants. If that's not sneering, I don't know what is.
Rebuttal is not name-calling. And when someone acts and talks like one of the self-proclaimed literary elite, it's pretty safe to assume that's what they are.
You accuse me of the very things you did, when all I've been trying to say is that everyone should have their own opinion.
I'll avoid addressing things of an ad hominem nature here, but I note that 'everyone having their own opinion' doesn't in any way imply that these opinions aren't open to discussion and that some of them may not be less reasoned than others.
You seem to ignore the distinction between personal tastes and an attempt to evaluate a work of art dispassionately.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
This vast majority you speak of exists only in your mind. If the vast majority of readers really agreed with you, then no Realms title -- or any other shared world fiction -- would have ever hit the New York Times bestseller list. And books like the Harry Potter series and The Da Vinci Code never would have done all that, because everyone was sitting around reading Ulysses and wondering what the plot was. As that is clearly not the case, it shows that your vast majority doesn't exist.
While there is certainly some relationship between sales figures for books and how much they appeal to people, the two are not the same. In general, people buy books before they read them, not afterward.
While also subject to doubt, it's probably more accurate to refer to opinion polls than sales figure when it comes to judging how much people like a given book. And I note that nearly every 'Reader's Choice' or similar list of the top books people love includes many of the books I cited as classics and not a single one I've seen includes any game setting fiction.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
My whole point is that any tale written is worth being considered on its own merits, without any preconceived notions. When you come in here and say that no Realms novel could ever compare with a non-Realms novel, you are not only insulting every single reader who walks these halls, you are insulting every one of the authors who walks with us.
But I didn't say that. You have persistently ignored what I say in favour of your own fictional literary manifesto.
There is a yawning gap between stating that game setting fiction was not as good as the best independent fiction and the caricature strawman that you claim I said.
Generally, when people resort to strawmen, it's because they feel unable to address the real argument. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Edited by - Icelander on 27 Aug 2008 14:57:10 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2008 : 15:23:38
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Okay, I've had a few complaints about this scroll. So I'm going to temporarily close it for a short while. In the meantime, I suggest all scribes participating in this discussion take some time to review their opinions and decide how best to maintain a respectful and productive tone when the scroll is re-opened.
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Looking for an alternative to the Realms, BUT
Topic Locked
