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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Aug 2008 : 00:35:26
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"The Faerûn-spanning organization known as the Harpers disbanded nearly a century ago".
(From the Luruar article posted on the Wizards site)
I am thoroughly disgusted that the 4E FR design team can write off something that makes the Realms unique in such a demeaning and insulting way to the gamers and Realms fans that have had the privilege*, fun and fellowship of experiencing the Realms (Ed's Realms) for the last 21 years of full-on published work (29 years counting Dragon magazine articles). I can only imagine how others feel by being let down by this appalling decision to totally abandon a true cornerstone of what makes the Realms so special and who have built upon the lore of the Harpers so eloquently in the last 21 years.
To abandon the Harpers in this way to appease the so called internet majority of D&D players who won't play in the Realms and buy Realms products because they believe that their PC's can't do anything meaningful because of the Harpers (and Chosen) is a complete betrayal of the loyal Realms fans of the last 21 years who have bought product after product after product. The Realms Haters won't buy the new Realms just because the Harpers are no more and I cannot believe that the 4E FR design team really believe they will either, despite their design brief that the new edition will encourage these people into the Realms. It won't happen and the 4E team know that, but they are desperate enough to spout the WoTC marketing line and keep their bosses happy.
I was going to buy the FRCG for completeness and tie in potentially interesting future events into my ongoing Realms campaign that has come of age this year (Happy 21st Birthday!), but not now after the design decision to callously abandon the Harpers in 4E for the reasons stated above, therefore taking away something special that makes the Realms a living, breathing unique place to enjoy D&D in. WoTC have finally managed to divorce me from their vision of what the Realms are about with a small sidebar and one simple sentence of thirteen fateful words. 4E will be the first edition of D&D and the Forgotten Realms that I will not buy and I feel very sad at this realisation.
I just despair about what is happening to the pre-eminent published Fantasy RPG campaign setting in the world. It is simply the finest and greatest RPG product available and it is being treated with disdain and contempt by its current licence holders.
Just my thoughts
Damian
*and I do consider it a privilege to have had the chance to experience Ed's campaign world through the published works of the last 21 years since I first bought the Old Grey Boxed Set.
I feel even more privileged to be able to talk to Ed and THO, as well as other FR designers (and fans) via Candlekeep and the FR Mailing List, because they (designers) are all fans of the setting as are we that buy the products they produce. They care about the setting and want long term publishing success for the Realms and more importantly lots of fun and laughter and great gaming for D&D players across the world.
I know that the Realms will continue and look forward to many more years of playing in the Realms as it should be and I will continue to realise how lucky I am to have a hobby that I have enjoyed for nearly 30 years and feel privileged to be able to speak to like-minded Realms fans from around the world.
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So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
Edited by - crazedventurers on 10 Aug 2008 00:26:21
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2008 : 01:09:16
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quote:
Originally posted by crazedventurers
"The Faerûn-spanning organization known as the Harpers disbanded nearly a century ago".
(From the Luruar article posted on the Wizards site)
I am thoroughly disgusted that the 4E FR design team can write off something that makes the Realms unique in such a demeaning and insulting way to the gamers and Realms fans that have had the privilege*, fun and fellowship of experiencing the Realms (Ed's Realms) for the last 21 years of full-on published work (29 years counting Dragon magazine articles). I can only imagine how Ed feels by being let down by this appalling decision to totally abandon a true cornerstone of what makes the Realms so special (and you can add THO, Steven Schend, Elaine Cunningham and others who have played in Ed's home campaign/worked in the design & publishing field who have built upon the lore of the Harpers so eloquently in the last 21 years).
To abandon the Harpers in this way to appease the so called internet majority of D&D players who won't play in the Realms and buy Realms products because they believe that their PC's can't do anything meaningful because of the Harpers (and Chosen) is a complete betrayal of the loyal Realms fans of the last 21 years who have bought product after product after product. The Realms Haters won't buy the new Realms just because the Harpers are no more and I cannot believe that the 4E FR design team really believe they will either, despite their design brief that the new edition will encourage these people into the Realms. It won't happen and the 4E team know that, but they are desperate enough to spout the WoTC marketing line and keep their bosses happy.
I was going to buy the FRCG for completeness and tie in potentially interesting future events into my ongoing Realms campaign that has come of age this year (Happy 21st Birthday!), but not now after the design decision to callously abandon the Harpers in 4E for the reasons stated above, therefore taking away something special that makes the Realms a living, breathing unique place to enjoy D&D in. WoTC have finally managed to divorce me from their vision of what the Realms are about with a small sidebar and one simple sentence of thirteen fateful words. 4E will be the first edition of D&D and the Forgotten Realms that I will not buy and I feel very sad at this realisation.
I just despair about what is happening to the pre-eminent published Fantasy RPG campaign setting in the world. It is simply the finest and greatest RPG product available and it is being treated with disdain and contempt by its current licence holders.
Just my thoughts
Damian
*and I do consider it a privilege to have had the chance to experience Ed's campaign world through the published works of the last 21 years since I first bought the Old Grey Boxed Set.
I feel even more privileged to be able to talk to Ed and THO, as well as other FR designers (and fans) via Candlekeep and the FR Mailing List, because they (designers) are all fans of the setting as are we that buy the products they produce. They care about the setting and want long term publishing success for the Realms and more importantly lots of fun and laughter and great gaming for D&D players across the world.
I know that the Realms will continue and look forward to many more years of playing in the Realms as it should be and I will continue to realise how lucky I am to have a hobby that I have enjoyed for nearly 30 years and feel privileged to be able to speak to like-minded Realms fans from around the world.
I know the feeling, it is exactly why I penned the Scroll: 4e FR killed my will to live(In 4e) Mini Rant.
I really feel this could be the final straw, at least for my back! |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36781 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2008 : 02:11:29
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| You know, I personally thought the Harper Schism was one of the greatest things to come out of 2E... Rich Baker, by his own words, disagreed. I can't say I'm happy with that... But as for totally disbanding the Harpers, I see no logical in-game reason that it should have happened. It's another of the many things about the Shattered (Shadowed?) Realms that makes me want to stay away. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2008 : 03:39:53
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For me, it was the final 'disconnect'.
Aside from the name, I see very little of the Realms in this new setting. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Daviot
Senior Scribe
USA
372 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2008 : 05:58:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
You know, I personally thought the Harper Schism was one of the greatest things to come out of 2E... Rich Baker, by his own words, disagreed. I can't say I'm happy with that... But as for totally disbanding the Harpers, I see no logical in-game reason that it should have happened. It's another of the many things about the Shattered (Shadowed?) Realms that makes me want to stay away.
Indeed, and the Harper Schism is one of the 2nd Ed. tidbits I happily include in the 2e through 3.5 setting of my group's FR games.
As for the topic at hand, despite being neutral for the longest time over 4e and 4e FR, the more previews I read, the less appealing it seems. I, for one, can certainly guarantee that an acquaintance of mine who doesn't DM FR and writes it off using the same sorts of excuses WotC tried "to fix" still won't use the Forgotten Shattered Realms in its 4e. Making the changes, in my opinion, nothing but painfully genericizing my favorite fantasy world (of all time). >_< |
One usually has far more to fear from the soft-spoken wizard with a blade and well-worn boots than from the boisterous one in the ivory tower.
My Tabletop Writing CV. |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2008 : 10:41:11
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liked the Harper schism and Moonstars, had one fun campaign involving their prophecy
I disconnected long before this article, this just adds to the huge overall disappointment |
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Sanishiver
Senior Scribe
USA
476 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2008 : 22:39:20
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Dude...the Harpers aren’t entirely gone.
...
Again, the Harpers aren’t gone.
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09/20/2008: Tiger Army at the Catalyst in Santa Cruz. You wouldn’t believe how many females rode it out in the pit. Santa Cruz women are all of them beautiful. Now I know to add tough to that description.
6/27/2008: WALL-E is about the best damn movie Pixar has ever made. It had my heart racing and had me rooting for the good guy.
9/9/2006: Dave Mathews Band was off the hook at the Shoreline Amphitheater.
Never, ever read the game books too literally, or make such assumptions that what is omitted cannot be. Bad DM form, that.
And no matter how compelling a picture string theory paints, if it does not accurately describe our universe, it will be no more relevant than an elaborate game of Dungeons and Dragons. --paragraph 1, chapter 9, The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene |
Edited by - Sanishiver on 10 Aug 2008 03:35:34 |
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2008 : 23:31:46
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Spells stilled, scribes:
I hate to tell you Shanishiver, but Ed and the other can't
tell us what their feelings are on all these topics.
Want to know why
BECAUSE THEY STILL WANT WRITING JOBS!
You do not tell your employer to screw off if you still
want your paycheck ever two weeks. I'm sure they still all want to write for one of the greatest shared worlds that have ever existed.
(JRR Tolkien is considered a master of literature, and Ed has surpassed the amount of material that Tolkein has written about)
We make the assumptions that we do based upon intelligent reasons and through the analysis of the posts that those authors write here in the forums.
In addition, if you follow the rules of the forums, any viewpoint may be expressed here, until it is totally disruption to the topic at hand. For the over 30 crowd like myself, who saw the very best that was printed, these wholesale changes are a complete contrast to
the materials that were printed in 1st and 2 ed. I'm sure the 12 year olds that pick up the 4 ed books in years to come will love what they read, but they haven't (mostly likely) been exposed to the truly great writing of the past. The travesty that WOTC is putting out to pacify the masses is a joke.
I hate to tell you, but us 25+ year olds make up the core market of role-playing game purchased, and we're being told we don't matter.
Sorry, but I don't appreciate anybody telling me I'm not important.
Plus, I hate bad business plans which I believe WOTC (Hasbro!) is following. Have to vote with my voice and wallet I do.
Anyway, that just about covers my opinion.
Sorry if I sound challenging, just wanted to finally voice my opinion on this trainwreck.
Mods, if you feel I must be booted off the forums for a while, I understand.
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2008 : 00:27:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Sanishiver
Claiming insult on their behalf is highly presumptuous, to put it far too nicely.
Good point well made - have amended my post
Cheers
Damian |
So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2008 : 01:02:17
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quote:
Originally posted by althen artren
For the over 30 crowd like myself, who saw the very best that was printed, these wholesale changes are a complete contrast to
the materials that were printed in 1st and 2 ed. I'm sure the 12 year olds that pick up the 4 ed books in years to come will love what they read, but they haven't (mostly likely) been exposed to the truly great writing of the past.
Hi there.
At the end of the year, I'll be 39 years old.
I bought the Bloodstone modules as they came out, and was overjoyed when the grey box finally came out. I sold most of my "first round" of D&D stuff around '92 or '93 I think (including "Basic" stuff, AD&D stuff, and those awesome maroon 2nd edition trades that fell hilariously short of the look and feel of genuine hand-tooled leather). But that said, I still have the mass market paperback of Darkwalker on Moonshae that I bought at the Waldenbooks in Greenwood Mall in Bowling Green, KY a week or two before I graduated high school.
A few months ago, I heard about 4th Edition on NPR's Morning Edition while I was drinking my morning coffee. Hadn't thought about D&D in years. Long story short, a few months later I'm spending every other Sunday afternoon running a 4th Edition campaign for my wife and five other friends, ranging in age from 21 to, well, younger than me but not a lot younger than me. I'm chasing the cat away from my kobold miniatures and ordering plastic gold and silver coins from online Mardis Gras tchachke supply houses.
I've read all the 4th FR stuff available so far, including and especially the Dragon magazine excerpts and Richard Baker's fine novel, Swordmage.
Fourth Edition and Fourth Edition Forgotten Realms, and what I've found to be the excellent creative materials supporting them, brought me back to gaming after almost two decades away. It's brought a half dozen of my friends to Dungeons and Dragons for the first time ever.
We're not fools. |
My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering. |
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2008 : 01:09:52
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Spells stilled, Christopher_Rowe:
I stand corrected on your account. All I have seen from old-timers
is mostly negative, except for some snippets here and there.
I most amend my previous post to only count myself, and those I
talk to personally.
My apologies to all who are offended by my post. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2008 : 01:39:10
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Let's keep the tone civil, shall we? This scroll is already coming close to breaching certain parts of the Code of Conduct. And I shouldn't have to remind you all that should you have specific grievances with a particular scribe, that you take those grievances to the 'Private Message' system. These scrolls are supposed to be for friendly, encouraging Realms chatter. Please remember to keep it that way.
This is your first and only warning on this. Otherwise, I'll have to seal this scroll.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2008 : 02:13:51
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Let's keep the tone civil, shall we? This scroll is already coming close to breaching certain parts of the Code of Conduct. And I shouldn't have to remind you all that should you have specific grievances with a particular scribe, that you take those grievances to the 'Private Message' system. These scrolls are supposed to be for friendly, encouraging Realms chatter. Please remember to keep it that way.
This is your first and only warning on this. Otherwise, I'll have to seal this scroll.
My apologies; to Althen Artren, to the Sage, and to the community at large. Incivility was certainly not my intention, and I'm frankly mortified to learn that that's what I communicated.
I'm delighted, though, to learn that the raison d'etre of this community is "friendly, encouraging Realms chatter," and will certainly keep that in mind as I walk these halls. |
My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering. |
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Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2008 : 03:04:11
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I've said it once, and I'll say it again. The only reason this is occurring is because the new batch of incompetent Realms designers are scared of their new material looking bad, so they have to destroy much of what was good and unique and interesting about the Realms in the process, so that we don't compare their new material to that old lore.
Sadly for us, the actual destroying of a setting is quite easy. Sadly for them, their incompetence has extended to the new 'Realms', seen in the frankly rubbish excerpts we've got so far. |
Edited by - Uzzy on 10 Aug 2008 03:06:10 |
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Sanishiver
Senior Scribe
USA
476 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2008 : 03:38:21
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I've edited my initial post as well.
As for Uzzy's comments....it's easy to call a body of work names and use that as an excuse to extend the name calling to the people behind it.
I may not like everything WotC has done, but at least I won't resort to that sort of behaviour in order to express my feelings about it.
FYI: I picked up most of my FR novels at Waldenbooks as well when I was a kid. It was awesome to have a full sized video arcade right next door to the bookstore at the mall. |
09/20/2008: Tiger Army at the Catalyst in Santa Cruz. You wouldn’t believe how many females rode it out in the pit. Santa Cruz women are all of them beautiful. Now I know to add tough to that description.
6/27/2008: WALL-E is about the best damn movie Pixar has ever made. It had my heart racing and had me rooting for the good guy.
9/9/2006: Dave Mathews Band was off the hook at the Shoreline Amphitheater.
Never, ever read the game books too literally, or make such assumptions that what is omitted cannot be. Bad DM form, that.
And no matter how compelling a picture string theory paints, if it does not accurately describe our universe, it will be no more relevant than an elaborate game of Dungeons and Dragons. --paragraph 1, chapter 9, The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene |
Edited by - Sanishiver on 10 Aug 2008 03:39:53 |
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2008 : 12:06:51
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I now realise my rant is out of context, hence perhaps the misunderstandings it has created.
Originally it was part of a post on the Luruar article but it was off topic there hence it appearing here.
In short: I don't understand the disbandment of the Harpers when Faerun needed them most. I cannot see the individuals doing this when the Spellplague rages all around them. Rather than just write they disbanded it would have been better to write:
"18 years after the Spellplague hit, the Harpers were finally driven underground by ongoing attacks from the (insert various evil groups) and the disruption caused by the ongoing chaos of the Spellplague. The toll on resources and lives of the Harpers had left it a shadow of its former strength. The surviving Master Harpers looked back to the History of the Harpers and decided to reform themselves into a new organisation, to better protect Faerun and act as the Harpers of Old did, working in small groups and keeping their allegiance secret"
Now that I would have understood and been happier with, it makes sense in context of what has happened and shows continuity and progression and a recognisation of previous Harper Lore.
However the decision is based purely on metagame thinking, to whit; the designers wanted to tone down the Harpers so players felt special, this IMO is a poor excuse for removing/radically altering something that makes the Realms so special and different and worth playing in, else I might as well buy Eberron if everything is the same?
I guess I am upset that 21 years of Lore that has seen some of the best novels, sourcebooks and plot developments for the Realms has just been cast aside in the hope that theose who dislike the Realms because of the Harpers et al will now buy Realms products.
Will it make a difference ito my game - of course not, but I am reflecting on what made the Realms special for me 21 years ago when I picked up the OGBS and the Harpers were certainly one of the many reasons I went WOW!!! I fear that if someone fairly new to the Realms picks up the FRCG they wont get that wow factor and just go, hmmmm its like 'insert another campaign setting' and there is nothing special etc.
Hope this clarifies my rant and I apologise to Candlekeep if I stepped over the line reagrding Code of Conduct.
Cheers
Damian
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So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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RodOdom
Senior Scribe
USA
509 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2008 : 12:14:20
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Consider the above post to speak for me as well, Damian.
Two decades is a good run. The Realms deserves a dozen more, to be sure. But it was a good run nevertheless. |
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Wandering_mage
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2008 : 12:28:36
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| Patience everyone. The 4th edition FRCS isn't even out yet. The old fun can continue (there is enough source material floating out there that you can pick and choose your D&D edition and FR edition and play on as if nothing ever happened) in your own games. Let's see how WotC shakes things up. It might be uncomfortable enough that it spawns enough new heroes to fix things in our home games to alter 4th edition FR back to something we all individually like better. Use your imagination. :) Keep gaming. Your imagination is the limit. |
Illum
The Wandering Mage |
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2008 : 12:29:47
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Ed has something interesting to say in the Chamber of Sages section.
Now that is a much better description then the 'Harpers just disbanded'.
Cheers
Damian
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So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2008 : 00:57:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
You know, I personally thought the Harper Schism was one of the greatest things to come out of 2E...
I also never had any problems with that plot development. I never had any real problems with the Harpers whatsoever, actually. Therefore, I don't need the Harpers to change like this in my Realms--so they won't. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2008 : 06:31:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Wandering_mage
Patience everyone. The 4th edition FRCS isn't even out yet.
But, the things that worry people are the things that are from actual excerpts from the 4e FRCG. This is not idle and/or baseless speculation that we are talking about anymore. This stuff is here to stay, and it is ruined for many of us. I will still go and read through the 4e FRCG when it is finally published to make my final decision, but all the things that I worried about happening with the deities has come true (the silliness of making various racial deities aspects of human deities). Every last sliver of hope that I have clutched to that this would still be the Realms I know and love (and have for 14 years) has been lost. For me, it is a new campaign setting with a familiar label attached to it to try and sucker me into buying it. I would have been more happy (but I am sure disgruntled) if they had discontinued the Realms and made a new pilot setting for their new rules set than to see it become this undead effigy of something I once knew and loved.
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Long Live Racial Diversity in the Realms (even among deities)!!! |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
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He left it dead, and with its head
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* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
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Sanishiver
Senior Scribe
USA
476 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2008 : 08:16:16
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A few sentences in a book aren't absolutes.
But people now -for whatever strange reason- are working hard to be dissapointed, instead of seeing all the potential and possibilities.
Think about it, even before this latest chapter in the history of the Harpers we've known that they have remade themselves in the past.
There's nothing new in what they're doing now. |
09/20/2008: Tiger Army at the Catalyst in Santa Cruz. You wouldn’t believe how many females rode it out in the pit. Santa Cruz women are all of them beautiful. Now I know to add tough to that description.
6/27/2008: WALL-E is about the best damn movie Pixar has ever made. It had my heart racing and had me rooting for the good guy.
9/9/2006: Dave Mathews Band was off the hook at the Shoreline Amphitheater.
Never, ever read the game books too literally, or make such assumptions that what is omitted cannot be. Bad DM form, that.
And no matter how compelling a picture string theory paints, if it does not accurately describe our universe, it will be no more relevant than an elaborate game of Dungeons and Dragons. --paragraph 1, chapter 9, The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene |
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Amarel Derakanor
Seeker
97 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2008 : 10:57:14
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I cannot say I quite agree with you, Sanishiver. But I'll try to explain my point of view.
quote:
Originally posted by Sanishiver
A few sentences in a book aren't absolutes.
Agreed, but when excerpt after excerpt is pointing in the same direction... Kindly, see my statement below for clarification.
quote:
But people now -for whatever strange reason- are working hard to be dissapointed, instead of seeing all the potential and possibilities.
The reason is not strange. It is simple.
Imagine a (relatively; minus the avatar triologies, and other RSE:s) consistent campaign setting, wonderfully detailed for two published decades. Then imagine a massive insertion of meta-game changes(so that the world 'fits' into the 'core-points of light-stuff') that either warps or retcons almost everything into a mere shadow of its former self.
[Edit-Added examples: The Gods(killing off alot of powers in a stupid fashion, retconning, et cetera), the Countries(blowing up Halruaa, forced insertion of the Dragonborn, the Shade empire), the Major NPC:s(the Chosen, and alot others, killed off because of meta-game reasons).Edit-End]
Now, THAT is where the disappointments are coming from. For me, it's like coming home, finding your house burned to the ground, your family abducted... And then being told that this brand new change is 'good' for you. I would NEVER support anyone who would do that to something dear to me. Ever.
So, I guess that's why people won't see the new possibilites(and yes, there are possibilites, though I have to say that the FORMER possibilites were much grander) of the Realms. They were happy with what's already been established. And now that's gone.
...That's how I see it, and I hope I've made it clear to you. ...I bet that others will agree with me as well. Remember, I am not attacking YOU here, just trying to explain. |
Edited by - Amarel Derakanor on 11 Aug 2008 11:30:10 |
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Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2008 : 12:13:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Sanishiver
But people now -for whatever strange reason- are working hard to be dissapointed, instead of seeing all the potential and possibilities.
Well its not really needed to work hard to be disappointed, because there are too many changes that are explained badly in the basic rules of the new edition alone.
- alignments are reduced from 9 to 5 thus requiring a whole restructuring of the universe
- skills for non-combat situations get thrown out
- special races become common races
A lot of things in the new Forgotten Realms have explanations which are breaking with tradition in the same style, so that is the same category when it comes to the quality of changes. I think one top seller which WotC could produce would be the "true explanations behind the changes" ...
Potential and possibilities are there, but it would have been much easier/more sensible to create a new world to use them and leave the old one "intact" instead of trashing it the way they did. Roleplaying is something which lives from having a rich environment and "telling us": all your old source material is useless now so you have to buy new stuff isnt a good way to go.
The new realms is A LOT smaller than the old realms and a lot less colorful, because a certain category has been removed from it: the "friendly and possibly helping organizations". This has been done apparently because they were deemed "too powerful" by some and because the focus of the new edition is on combat, so only bad guys need to live and thrive in a world. |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
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RodOdom
Senior Scribe
USA
509 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2008 : 13:06:53
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"But people now -for whatever strange reason- are working hard to be dissapointed, instead of seeing all the potential and possibilities."
Taken by itself, we may very well be overreacting to what happened to the Harpers. But it's really the proverbial feather that broke the camel's back. Hopefully we won't get several more tons of feathers in the new FRCS. |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2008 : 15:09:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Wandering_mage
Patience everyone. The 4th edition FRCS isn't even out yet. ....
But is that a good thing?
I read in another scroll here that Ed's 50k contribution to it, will no longer be in the FRCS.
That is scary to me.
Edit: Now that I posted that, I cannot remember where I read it, can anyone verify that? |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Edited by - The Red Walker on 11 Aug 2008 15:19:37 |
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2008 : 16:05:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Amarel_Derakanor
[Edit-Added examples: forced insertion of the Dragonborn, Edit-End]
And that in spite of the fact that there are already dragonborn in the (3.5) Realms. |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links • 2ed Downloads |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2008 : 17:01:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Sanishiver
But people now -for whatever strange reason- are working hard to be dissapointed, instead of seeing all the potential and possibilities.
Of course there is potential and possibilities. That was true for the old version of the Realms too, though.
Let's let people feel what they want to feel about it. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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MerrikCale
Senior Scribe
USA
947 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2008 : 17:07:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Sanishiver
But people now -for whatever strange reason- are working hard to be dissapointed, instead of seeing all the potential and possibilities.
Of course there is potential and possibilities. That was true for the old version of the Realms too, though.
Let's let people feel what they want to feel about it.
true enough. In fairness, the dissapointment is at least based on what they have told us so far |
When hinges creak in doorless chambers and strange and frightening sounds echo through the halls, whenever candlelights flicker where the air is deathly still, that is the time when ghosts are present, practicing their terror with ghoulish delight. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2008 : 20:31:42
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The disappointment thus far, IMHO, is the total lack of understanding of what made FR great in the first place - the lore.
Without the oddles and oodles of great history created by people like Ed and Steven, the setting would have just read like another flavorless generic fantasy setting.
Which is now what it has become. What they have removed was FR's CHARM, plain and simple.
If I wanted just another flavorless generic fantasy backdrop, I'd still be using GH. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 11 Aug 2008 20:35:25 |
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2008 : 21:16:06
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Personally, I've never felt bound by the lore that exists in FR. Not once, not a single time. And I try to keep things as "canon" as possible.
My disappointment comes from the lack of depth that I get from the excerpts. All I can think when reading them is "Boy, this doesn't help me write a game at all." I feel like I'll be doing far more work to create a campaign than I have to do now.
And, really, I feel like these changes are driven by an incorrect perception of FR. I also feel that there has never really been an attempt to correct that perception, just more stuff to exasperate that perception.
Personally, I really hope that when I take a look at the FRCG I'll be blown away, want to shelve my 3.5 game and take on 4E. I just can't imagine that happening given what we've been shown. |
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Thirteen fateful words.......
