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Ozzalum
Learned Scribe
USA
277 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Jun 2008 : 20:51:44
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So, to summarize, let me see if I have this right.
Eilistraee is dead but she planned it all along, as a method of redeeming those Drow who weren't corrupted by Wendonai's blood. So now we have a clear distinction, decreed from on high by the very gods themselves, that the remaining Drow are irredeemable. (I guess that frees up the paladins in the adventuring party to slaughter Drow babies to their hearts' content.)
And those Drow that have been redeemed are now no longer Drow but have reverted back to being "dark elves" or green elves or whatever their ancestors were before they were cursed. They no longer have black skin or any other attributes of the Drow.
But they still live in the Underdark and now they are obviously different from the irredeemably evil creatures that make up the majority population in their communities.
So basically Eilistraee planned to get all the good Drow killed? Who fooled whom here? |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2008 : 22:14:04
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| Will this turn Drizzt into a Dark Elf or does he remain Drow??? |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2008 : 01:26:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Ozzalum
But they still live in the Underdark and now they are obviously different from the irredeemably evil creatures that make up the majority population in their communities.
So basically Eilistraee planned to get all the good Drow killed? Who fooled whom here?
Right, aside from the fact that I have problems with the concept of redemption in this series, I think the plan is impractical and dangerous for the very reason you are alluding to (the dark elves in the Underdark will just wind up being killed by the drow!). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2008 : 01:26:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
Will this turn Drizzt into a Dark Elf or does he remain Drow???
He's still a drow, according to the prologue in The Orc King. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Karzak
Learned Scribe
196 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2008 : 02:25:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
Will this turn Drizzt into a Dark Elf or does he remain Drow???
He's still a drow, according to the prologue in The Orc King.
Welp, if he went brown, then we won't get to see loving descriptions of his "white mane" and his "obsidian skin" (or is that onyx? One of those; I'm not familiar with ClicheSpeak) anymore, will we? The tragedy.
Apart from drawing the obvious conclusion (i.e. in-house ineptitude at checking consistency), we can arrive at the simple explanation: Drizzt, not being one of the chosen few, belongs to the demographic of evil drow doomed to being irredeemable forever. It'd strike me as ironic and funny, except it'll just make him angst worse. I can see the journal entries already.
My brethren, the goodly drow, have received the blessing of Eilistraee, the Dark Maiden, the Masked Lady: welcomed back to the surface, the color of their skin returned to what it once was before they were driven into the depth of the Underdark. Their lot it is to know sunlight, their lot it is to receive a goddess' gift.
And I? I alone remain as I was born; I alone cannot present myself before them and call them kin - my skin remains the black of midnight, my white mane the white of driven snow. Appear before them, and they would chase me away - for all that we share ideals, origins, indeed for all that we should be brothers united in a fight for the goodly races! But no, fate would not have it that way: my struggle for acceptance continues. And to think I thought I had found a home, a home for the heart, a home for the soul.
have to rescue orc babies kthxbye ttyl
Oh wait. Salvatore likes to pretend Eilistraee doesn't exist. Looks like we have a conundrum on our hands. And uh, sorry if I don't get the voice quite right. I don't know how to write like an emotionally retarded drow pissant. Perhaps I shouldn't have used a semicolon; that might be too literate. |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2008 : 03:14:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Karzak
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
Will this turn Drizzt into a Dark Elf or does he remain Drow???
He's still a drow, according to the prologue in The Orc King.
Welp, if he went brown, then we won't get to see loving descriptions of his "white mane" and his "obsidian skin" (or is that onyx? One of those; I'm not familiar with ClicheSpeak) anymore, will we? The tragedy.
Apart from drawing the obvious conclusion (i.e. in-house ineptitude at checking consistency), we can arrive at the simple explanation: Drizzt, not being one of the chosen few, belongs to the demographic of evil drow doomed to being irredeemable forever. It'd strike me as ironic and funny, except it'll just make him angst worse. I can see the journal entries already.
My brethren, the goodly drow, have received the blessing of Eilistraee, the Dark Maiden, the Masked Lady: welcomed back to the surface, the color of their skin returned to what it once was before they were driven into the depth of the Underdark. Their lot it is to know sunlight, their lot it is to receive a goddess' gift.
And I? I alone remain as I was born; I alone cannot present myself before them and call them kin - my skin remains the black of midnight, my white mane the white of driven snow. Appear before them, and they would chase me away - for all that we share ideals, origins, indeed for all that we should be brothers united in a fight for the goodly races! But no, fate would not have it that way: my struggle for acceptance continues. And to think I thought I had found a home, a home for the heart, a home for the soul.
have to rescue orc babies kthxbye ttyl
Oh wait. Salvatore likes to pretend Eilistraee doesn't exist. Looks like we have a conundrum on our hands. And uh, sorry if I don't get the voice quite right. I don't know how to write like an emotionally retarded drow pissant. Perhaps I shouldn't have used a semicolon; that might be too literate.
Hmm this brings me to the question on wether Mielikki survives?? |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Arkhaedun
Senior Scribe
869 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2008 : 03:54:04
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Let's keep in mind that over the top criticisms can be seen as more than opinion and entering the realm of insulting. Whatever else your opinions might be, please make an effort to not ridicule an author's work, and to actually provide some constructive criticism.
Thanks. |
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ywhtptgtfo
Seeker
89 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2008 : 07:28:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Ozzalum
So basically Eilistraee planned to get all the good Drow killed? Who fooled whom here?
This makes little sense actually... The so-called "redemption" of the "good" drow had nothing to do with her manifestation in Qilue's body. It's more like she tried to kill Lolth with Hallistra but failed and yet somehow the book tried to give the impression that Eilistraee knew it all along and that it's necessary for her to be cut up by Hallistra. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2008 : 18:20:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Karzak
Apart from drawing the obvious conclusion (i.e. in-house ineptitude at checking consistency), we can arrive at the simple explanation: Drizzt, not being one of the chosen few, belongs to the demographic of evil drow doomed to being irredeemable forever. It'd strike me as ironic and funny...
Indeed, that's why I was laughing.
quote:
And I? I alone remain as I was born; I alone cannot present myself before them and call them kin - my skin remains the black of midnight, my white mane the white of driven snow. Appear before them, and they would chase me away - for all that we share ideals, origins, indeed for all that we should be brothers united in a fight for the goodly races! But no, fate would not have it that way: my struggle for acceptance continues. And to think I thought I had found a home, a home for the heart, a home for the soul.
I have to thank you for my first really good laugh of the day.
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"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 11 Jun 2008 18:23:24 |
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kenjura
Acolyte
3 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2008 : 23:57:52
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Anyone else here familiar with Drowtales?
It's a web comic that started as an homage to the drow of the Forgotten Realms, then spun off into an original world.
In this world, the tainted drow have red eyes, while the untainted ones don't. A long time ago, they were all brown, and were generally good.
Hmm.
Hmmmm.
If I didn't know better, I'd say they came around full circle, and the imitation itself was imitated. Perhaps Lisa Smedman is a Drowtales fan.
Actually, Drowtales is a pretty interesting and engaging world with many stories. The FR authors could learn a thing or two. |
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Cyria
Acolyte
20 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2008 : 19:49:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Karzak
Apart from drawing the obvious conclusion (i.e. in-house ineptitude at checking consistency), we can arrive at the simple explanation: Drizzt, not being one of the chosen few, belongs to the demographic of evil drow doomed to being irredeemable forever.
Drizzt for Chosen of Lolth!
Even beyond the skin tone issue, I don't think this is the best choice. I can't even begin to list all the times people have complained about elven subraces since I first started browsing general D&D forums. Now FR has to deal with the question of whether to make a big deal about the eladrin/elves distinction. If they'll be "moon elf in the Realms, eladrin in game terms", the old "problem" is still going to be around to some degree, at least in the novels. And they added a new subrace of brown-skinned good elves. But I don't think RAS will make Drizzt brown-skinned or deal with the whole Eilistraee thing unless he wants to, and I doubt he would since he's only referred to her once or twice in 10+ books. So the iconic good dark elf is going to remain a black-skinned drow... which makes him irredeemable. And brings up the question of what happened to the good surface drow who worshipped human deities. Argh. I just don't see how this contributes to the Realms - people already had plenty of ways to make surface drow PCs. |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2008 : 13:43:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Cyria
Drizzt for Chosen of Lolth!
Lolth did enjoy the chaos caused by Drizzt at one time. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2008 : 18:01:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
quote:
Originally posted by Cyria
Drizzt for Chosen of Lolth!
Lolth did enjoy the chaos caused by Drizzt at one time.
That's not proof that he was a "Chosen" or anything, though. Lolth has probably felt the same way about thousands of other characters we've never even heard of. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2008 : 19:43:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
That's not proof that he was a "Chosen" or anything, though. Lolth has probably felt the same way about thousands of other characters we've never even heard of.
Oh I know, just making a statement that WotC (being how they are) would use that as an excuse to make it plausible. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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reddfox321
Acolyte
USA
13 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2008 : 05:12:52
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| If the good drow were turned into green elves perhaps the high magic culture of the drow and the survival culture of the green elves will merge into something new. |
Moon Elf Ranger |
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Garrax
Acolyte
USA
1 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2008 : 21:43:13
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I don't think that the fight for the souls of the whole race is done. In the very last couple paragraphs Lolth is enraged that Corellon Larethian is stopping her from claiming Eilistraee's followers. This is due to them not being drow anymore but being surface elves which he rules over.
It is my belief that Eilistraee knew she could not win but made it so someone else could fight Lolth for the souls of the race, and by making her followers surface elves daddy got to step in and take over fighting for everything.
Quote: "Corellon Larethian laughed. 'My move I believe.'" ~ Ascendancy of the Last p.308 
So now we have Corellon vs. Lolth who wins takes all. |
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Xaositect
Acolyte
5 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2008 : 19:43:26
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Signed up to say this because I do feel strongly about it, though Im sorry this is probably a tad late. Overall I have had mixed feelings about this lady penitent series. The first book had me hoping for many things, all of which turned out it to be wrong. It turns out Vhaeraun was "bested" by Eilistraee after all and all we were treated to was some crying from one of his followers about it (“Noooo, he ar teh dederz!”) The second was okay, but again, I disliked the idea of a god being offed in such a manner, particularly by such an annoying whelp like Quarlynd. Ive had mixed feelings about him for most of the three books but I think I can safely say I now fully dislike him.
At first it was because I hated how he jumped from one thing to the other while sort of making a mess of each thing he touched (when I considered him dead and dusted ages ago). At first I thought it was perhaps a nice sign of him being quite the chaotic type, but since he has been such a pitiful wizard throughout, yet still considered a "master", I really look back now with distaste. Lets face it, Pharaun would annihilate Quarlynd in a nanosecond, either with his magical prowess, or his abundance of endearing character qualities. I think the highlights of Quarlynd were some of his instances regarding Drow females. I like how Lisa Smedman did those, from the very beginning with the female house weapon master, or looking back as a student about a female apprentice he was with.
Have to agree on the disappointing protagonist "lady penitent", since -like much of her part in WotSQ- she is quite weak and pathetic. Not very likeable as a character, so it makes Lolths use of her all the more dull and irritating. Another point, I didnt really think T'lar featured enough, since I quite liked her. She had that really great look (though it seems like on storm of the dead, a well endowed chest of course, typical and a little insulting) and she seemed quite funny and capable. Overall her part in the novel and her death were disappointing, since I did like her from what little I saw. Cant fathom why she was on the cover mind you?
Another thing that really got me irked, which I had read at the end of storm of the dead, was the whole "brown elf" thing. I really cant express my distaste enough for this, since I hate the whole "cursed appearance" thing. It makes me wonder why I read about Araushnee, Eilistraee and Vhaeraun being obsidian skinned in arvandor before the Crown Wars (Im assuming thats still the "reason" they were driven underground) took place? I thought the entire hook was, like say those Avariel and is it Aerdrie Feanya, that they looked like the member of the Seldarine that they were "descended from", “created by” or "related to" or whatever? Maybe I just mixed up my own personal ideas with "lore", but I still didnt like it.
Also -and this might be a little “controversial”, so if it offends anyone, I do apologise- I felt like this was perhaps some attempt at throwing some water on the "race issue" fire. I have heard one or two of my friends complain about the "dark skinned = evil" when I mention my liking for Drow (if I do “like” them anymore after this). Is it perhaps their way of saying "hey, they looked more like real [insert dark skinned race] when they were good!" Again, I do apologise if that offends anyone, but I figure its no less drastic a conclusion than that old point about how "Drow + dark skin = evil" is objectionable. Either way, I dearly wish the Drow had always been obsidian skinned, white haired and red eyed.
As for Corellon taking the "reigns", I again cant express my distaste enough. I personally blamed the Seldarine partly for the Drows fall, since (again perhaps just opinion and not lore) I thought to myself "where the hell were the Seldarine for the Drow before the Crown wars?" Surely the Drow didnt just up and say "well, lets worship Vhaeraun and Ghaunadar" - and later Lolth? I figured there must have been neglect on the Seldarines part. And when you see a deity like Shevarash in there, I only despise that damn Seldarine even more.
Sorry major rant there.
The book wasnt so bad, since I think Lisa Smedman is a good author, but a lot of these changes are either a bit overwhelming for me, or flat out risking completely shifting my interest from the Drow altogther. I mean, the older setup, while not without problems (like I said, I had friends lecturing me on their offensive nature on the 'women/dark skin = evil' thing) but I still really liked them a lot.
Ehh, I think I have typed enough rubbish, sorry about that. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2008 : 20:05:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Xaositect
Have to agree on the disappointing protagonist "lady penitent", since -like much of her part in WotSQ- she is quite weak and pathetic. Not very likeable as a character, so it makes Lolths use of her all the more dull and irritating.
I agree. She does strike me as an ineffectual sort of person who succeeds only by accident (or, because someone else has her under their thumb). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2008 : 06:31:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord of Bones
Being something of a Cthulhu fan, I'm hoping they don't just off the big ooze.
I read the thread linked to this novel on the WOTC boards, and there's some real venom going on, isn't there? I know feelings on 4th Edition have been running very high, but it seems that this additional blow to the Forgotten Realms has made some folks get incredibly angry and bitter.
I've got to be honest, from what I've read here, I doubt I'll be buying the novel. I've never been a huge fan of the drow, but this entire 'genericising' thing that they seem determined to do strikes me as a mistake. I don't really see the point in having campaign settings if they're all ultimately similar in concept.
Viva la Pathfinder.
Viva la Pathfinder indeed. |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2008 : 06:37:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Karzak
have to rescue orc babies kthxbye ttyl
Oh wait. Salvatore likes to pretend Eilistraee doesn't exist. Looks like we have a conundrum on our hands. And uh, sorry if I don't get the voice quite right. I don't know how to write like an emotionally retarded drow pissant. Perhaps I shouldn't have used a semicolon; that might be too literate.
LOL!
Wow*, I haven't laughed that hard in a while. Thank you Karzak!
*Wow is used as an interjection here, and not as an abbreviation to that dreadful video game which has taken some of my best friends away from the world of the living, and now, the game that has also killed my favorite hobby...[/i] |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2008 : 06:41:24
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Thanks to all the posters here!
You have saved me some time!
Four months ago I put down Lady Penitent as I was halfway through it, due to general disinterest, and thanks to your posts here, I have shed the guilt I still had at not having finished this book. It shall remain unfinished forever more, along with the still unpurchased sequels for that serie.
Sorry if this comes down as "harsh" to some of the more bleeding hearts amidst us all here, but my stance, now, is that I am voting with my wallet.
Keep the spoilers coming. Without spoiler warnings. Especially for crap like this. Thanks! |
Edited by - Purple Dragon Knight on 20 Jun 2008 06:41:50 |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2008 : 09:09:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
[quote]
*Wow is used as an interjection here, and not as an abbreviation to that dreadful video game which has taken some of my best friends away from the world of the living, and now, the game that has also killed my favorite hobby...
There are a lot of people who play WoW who also play D&D, and the vast majority are not pleased with 4th edition. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
768 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2008 : 10:29:06
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quote:
Originally posted by khorne
quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
[quote]
*Wow is used as an interjection here, and not as an abbreviation to that dreadful video game which has taken some of my best friends away from the world of the living, and now, the game that has also killed my favorite hobby...
There are a lot of people who play WoW who also play D&D, and the vast majority are not pleased with 4th edition.
But the Purple Dragon Knight's point is a valid one. The popularity and overall adictivness of WoW made WoTC think that they could cash in by changing DnD into a WoW clone. The problem is that WoW and all of the other MMORPG's out there are really poor excuses for RPG's. Now I'm not saying that MMORPG's aren't fun to play ( I got into Galaxies myself). But they are not geared toward story telling and thus can become quite lame real quick. But I am getting off topic.
I just finished the last book in this series and after digesting all that has happened I feel really good about it. I have read everyones complaints and it seems that some of you are even ready to bolt FR because of all of the changes being made.
As for the Drow not being redeamable, well I don't see that as the case. What I took from this is this:
1) Most Drow are inherintly evil and Loth is the only god on the block for those that are evil. However there are always exceptions to the rule as these have always been in DnD. Thats whats so great about DnD. The rules are malleable by DM's to fit their specific campaign no matter what edition it is. I always thought of the DnD rules as guide lines rather than inmutable laws.
2) They actually are going more retro with the elimination of all but one of the Drow gods. Now it goes back to old school Loth vs. the Seldarine. I personally never bought the fact that there was a "good" Drow goddess. Ever since 1st Ed I was tought that all Drow were born evil. So I like how WoTC delt with that by saying that there were actually some friendly fire casualties when the Descent happened. So Eilistraee decided to go into exile so that one day those innocents could be brought back into the light. She was ultimately able to accomplish this through her sacrifice. All in all it was a good story for me. I am looking forward to reading more about Miyeritar and to hopefully seeing the Drow step back from the center stage they have had for a very long time. |
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Xaositect
Acolyte
5 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2008 : 18:50:01
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quote:
Most Drow are inherintly evil and Loth is the only god on the block for those that are evil. However there are always exceptions to the rule as these have always been in DnD. Thats whats so great about DnD. The rules are malleable by DM's to fit their specific campaign no matter what edition it is. I always thought of the DnD rules as guide lines rather than inmutable laws.
I just have to say, I flat out disagree with this. Most Drow are not “inherently evil” in my opinion, most Drow (now that the Drow pantheon has been completely erased) are more innocent that any "goodly race" paladin will ever be. I see no evidence to suggest the Drow that are born consciously "choose" to be born as Drow beforehand. By this I come to the conclusion that since they had no choice but to be born into a world of conditioned hatred and evil, they cannot be held accountable for committing evil acts in the same way someone born on the surface can. Since they have never known “good” in the first place, how can they be expected to act in that manner? I believe there is no such thing as "inherent evil". There are consequences of life, and in D&D, there are meddling gods, and the Drow are victim to both.
That reason is exactly why I have always despised "judgement" against the Drow. The "goodly races" commit exactly the same atrocities the Drow do, only they continue to do it even with the possibility of a different path. The "goodly races" so often choose to commit acts of evil, whereas most Drow were forced into them from the moment they were born, with being sacrificed on the altar as the only alternative.
Sorry about this rant, but the very reason I like the Drow is because they are precisely not "inherently evil", but evil because they have no other choice by accident of birth.
One reason I didnt like Storm of the Dead was that awful point about that pathetic idiot Wendonai "corrupting" certain Drow, so that Drow born had "corruption" in them.
As for the MMORPG point though, I have never though of it like that, but I have to agree now. I dont like this whole "points of light" thing, where large parts of the continent have been ravaged by the "spellplague". It gives me the image of a few small spots of civilisation in a huge and very boring grind fest. Instead of living on a fantasy continent, it looks more like everywhere is tailored to grinding your character, much like an MMO. |
Edited by - Xaositect on 21 Jun 2008 18:51:01 |
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
768 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2008 : 19:19:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Xaositect
quote:
Most Drow are inherintly evil and Loth is the only god on the block for those that are evil. However there are always exceptions to the rule as these have always been in DnD. Thats whats so great about DnD. The rules are malleable by DM's to fit their specific campaign no matter what edition it is. I always thought of the DnD rules as guide lines rather than inmutable laws.
I just have to say, I flat out disagree with this. Most Drow are not “inherently evil” in my opinion, most Drow (now that the Drow pantheon has been completely erased) are more innocent that any "goodly race" paladin will ever be. I see no evidence to suggest the Drow that are born consciously "choose" to be born as Drow beforehand. By this I come to the conclusion that since they had no choice but to be born into a world of conditioned hatred and evil, they cannot be held accountable for committing evil acts in the same way someone born on the surface can. Since they have never known “good” in the first place, how can they be expected to act in that manner? I believe there is no such thing as "inherent evil". There are consequences of life, and in D&D, there are meddling gods, and the Drow are victim to both.
That reason is exactly why I have always despised "judgement" against the Drow. The "goodly races" commit exactly the same atrocities the Drow do, only they continue to do it even with the possibility of a different path. The "goodly races" so often choose to commit acts of evil, whereas most Drow were forced into them from the moment they were born, with being sacrificed on the altar as the only alternative.
Sorry about this rant, but the very reason I like the Drow is because they are precisely not "inherently evil", but evil because they have no other choice by accident of birth.
One reason I didnt like Storm of the Dead was that awful point about that pathetic idiot Wendonai "corrupting" certain Drow, so that Drow born had "corruption" in them.
As for the MMORPG point though, I have never though of it like that, but I have to agree now. I dont like this whole "points of light" thing, where large parts of the continent have been ravaged by the "spellplague". It gives me the image of a few small spots of civilisation in a huge and very boring grind fest. Instead of living on a fantasy continent, it looks more like everywhere is tailored to grinding your character, much like an MMO.
But my assertion that Drow are inherintly evil comes straight from the rules book. I'm not looking at it from a sociological point of view, I mean this is a game and the DM can choose to say that all Drow are born hippies if they want to. But the rules state that drow as a whole (non-PC) are evil. And as far as Wendonai's corruption, I thought this was a good interpretation of the rules into the novel realm. But then again I am not a big drow fan like you or some others. I'm more ambivalent so I have a different point of view. |
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Lady Fellshot
Senior Scribe
USA
379 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2008 : 00:20:20
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I would also have to disagree with the idea that a whole race of anything being inherently evil by design. Some races I explain away as they are predators to the common player races (like illithids, beholders, etc). In medieval fantasy it would be very strange to sympathize with one's dinner.
With regards to the Drow now, where does free will come into it? If one is doing a roleplaying or storytelling heavy game, you actually do need to consider evil doer motivation as more than bad genetics. If all you are doing is a hack and slash game (which isn't terrible, it just isn't my thing) having the notation of "Most drow are evil" makes sense.
Meh, I like as much reality in my fantasy as I can cram in there. Irredeemable and inherent evil for drow, goblins and orcs doesn't fit into my Realms scheme. Not when there are examples contrary to the idea of "inherently evil." Maybe not good, but definitely not totally evil.
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
768 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2008 : 03:08:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Lady Fellshot
I would also have to disagree with the idea that a whole race of anything being inherently evil by design. Some races I explain away as they are predators to the common player races (like illithids, beholders, etc). In medieval fantasy it would be very strange to sympathize with one's dinner.
With regards to the Drow now, where does free will come into it? If one is doing a roleplaying or storytelling heavy game, you actually do need to consider evil doer motivation as more than bad genetics. If all you are doing is a hack and slash game (which isn't terrible, it just isn't my thing) having the notation of "Most drow are evil" makes sense.
Meh, I like as much reality in my fantasy as I can cram in there. Irredeemable and inherent evil for drow, goblins and orcs doesn't fit into my Realms scheme. Not when there are examples contrary to the idea of "inherently evil." Maybe not good, but definitely not totally evil.
You hit the nail on the head with the reality comment. It all depends on peoples personal preference. Me, I like looking at my fantasy realms as that, fantasy. Where drow are evil and dragons need slaying. But the problem is how does an author write a book and balance these two sides of the coin? |
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Lady Fellshot
Senior Scribe
USA
379 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2008 : 03:42:06
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I would make it seem at least logical and consistent with what is in previous lore. A demonic taint 50 generations back doesn't make sense to me. A ritual to Lolth mere moments after a drowlet is born does. And to imply that the drow can be redeemed (whatever the means) would indicate that there could be a spark of good lurking in them somewhere, buried very deep.
Mind, it doesn't mean that you can't have evil drow or go running off to slay dragons. Those are too much fun to give up ^.^ But saying that all drow are inherently evil feels too much like oversimplification. It seems almost as if it partially eliminates free will for the subrace. |
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Nkoda
Acolyte
USA
40 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2008 : 19:22:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Xaositect
Also -and this might be a little “controversial”, so if it offends anyone, I do apologise- I felt like this was perhaps some attempt at throwing some water on the "race issue" fire. I have heard one or two of my friends complain about the "dark skinned = evil" when I mention my liking for Drow (if I do “like” them anymore after this). Is it perhaps their way of saying "hey, they looked more like real [insert dark skinned race] when they were good!" Again, I do apologise if that offends anyone, but I figure its no less drastic a conclusion than that old point about how "Drow + dark skin = evil" is objectionable. Either way, I dearly wish the Drow had always been obsidian skinned, white haired and red eyed.
Honestly, as a black person of African descent, it is kind of nice to have civilized characters to relate to. Previously, all I had in the realms to relate to was the barbarians of Chult. The Drow, after all, didn't look black. Maybe it's a marketing hook to get more black people into the campaign by providing people to relate to. |
Welcome to Jamrock |
Edited by - Nkoda on 22 Jun 2008 19:36:49 |
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Nkoda
Acolyte
USA
40 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2008 : 19:49:27
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| That said, I really don't agree with the ending of this book. Halisstra was probably the worst character ever to have a book named after them. I enjoyed the writing style... but yeah this was a very disappointing series. |
Welcome to Jamrock |
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Ascendancy of the last. Heavy spoilers
