| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Strahd Von Zarovich
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
135 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Jun 2003 : 00:47:43
|
Does anyone know if there is a compiled document containing a list of drow names, places and so forth with pronunciation.
It would make reading the Drow tales better if I knew how the names were meant to sound.
For example
is BAENRE (BAY-EN-RAY) or (BANE-ER) or (BANE-RAY)
Strahd Von Zarovich
|
Strahd Von Zarovich
Alaundo and I invite fans of everything D&D to join us!
http://www.worldsofdnd.com |
|
|
Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2003 : 10:32:45
|
Actually, according to the sound files in the game Menzoberranzan, it's neither of those. It's actually "Bane-ree." Until I played that, I'd thought it was the first one you suggested. I also had thought that "drow" was pronounced "droe."  |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
 |
|
|
Lord Rad
Great Reader
United Kingdom
2080 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2003 : 10:52:47
|
Ive always read it as sounding like BAY-EN-RAY.
I recall a drow dictionary somewhere that I may be able to put my hands on, I think it breaks down the words phonetically (is that the right word?!) showing how theyre pronounced. Im not sure whether it contains locations and names or whether its just a language dictionary. Ill see if I can find it.
::begins to rummage through the numerous piles of scrolls in his desk:: |
Lord Rad
"What? No, I wasn't reading your module. I was just looking at the pictures"
|
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
|
|
branmakmuffin
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2003 : 22:29:27
|
Rad:
I have also always pronounced it buy-EN-ray.
I find it odd when native American English-speaking authors spell made up words and then the supposed official pronunciation is some odd, quasi-"European" thing. Robert Jordan does this in The Wheel of Time. For example, "Seanchan" is supposedly pronounced SHAWN-chuhn, whereas most American are inclined to pronounce it SEEN-chun or perhaps SENN-chunh.
Granted, the only "baen" I know of is the publisher Jim Baen, and I believe it is pronounced BANE, but if whoever created "Baenre" wanted it to be pronounced BANE-ree, why the heck not spell it B-A-N-E-R-E-E? Because it's not "cool looking" enough? Not enough consonants smushed together?
As entertaining and as intelligent as Salvatore, Jordan, Goodkind, etc. may be, they are not Tolkien, and in my opinion they don't need to engage in (seemingly) random, goofy spelling/pronuciation combinations to make their fantasy stories more "authentically" fantastic.
If you showed a group of random American English speakers "baenre" and asked them to pronounce it, they'd probably say BANE-er, with a few trying to say it "French-style", BANE-ruh. I know not all readers of fantasy works by American authors are American, but I imagine most American fantasy authors cater primarly to American readers.
How about Drizzt's panther? I just say GWEN-uh-veer, like King Arthur's wife.
Sage:
That page is about phrases, translation and grammar. I didn't see anything about pronunciation. I may have missed it, as I gave the site a fairly casual perusal. |
Edited by - branmakmuffin on 08 Jun 2003 22:40:37 |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2003 : 05:42:33
|
No, I am fairly certain it had a pronunciation portion to the dictionary. The copy I downloaded from their site certainly has the section. They may have taken it down from the website, perhaps. I'll re-check my downloaded copy and see what I find.
May your learning be free and unfettered
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2003 : 05:50:35
|
Actually I read through all the relevant sections of the three main Drow sourcebooks last night - Drow of the Underdark, Drizzt's Do'Urden's Guide to the Underdark, and the Menzoberranzan Boxed Set, but could find nothing describing the pronunciation in the Drow language. I think this absence is very interesting considering the overall impact the Drow have on surface culture.
Anyway, I would have to agree with Rad. I have always pronounced it, BAY-EN-RAY.
And branmakmuffin, I remember downloading a selection of sound files from the Icewind Dale trilogy audio log. On it, it pronounced the panther's name as GWEN-eh-vaar.
May your learning be free and unfettered
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
branmakmuffin
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2003 : 15:47:54
|
| GWEN-eh-vaar I can deal with. I was suspecting the "official" pronunciation was supposed to be something like KHUWEN-ih-fah-air (KH as in "ch" in "Bach"). |
|
|
|
Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2003 : 16:45:21
|
| branmakmuffin's original pronunciation of Guenhwyvar is right, i.e. the same as Bob Salvatore's. I didn't find a sanctioned way to say Baenre on rasalvatore.com, but it would be silly if 'ae' and 'e' are the same sound. I don't agree about Seanchan if the alternative is to spell it phonetically. |
|
|
|
Malice
Seeker
USA
83 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2003 : 18:45:22
|
| I'm glad that I'm not the only one who was wondering how to pronounce those names.... |
"Khaless? Ha. Vel'bol zhah nindol 'khaless' dos telanth? d'usstan zhaun ol naut." |
|
|
|
branmakmuffin
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2003 : 19:03:11
|
Faraer:
quote:
branmakmuffin's original pronunciation of Guenhwyvar is right, i.e. the same as Bob Salvatore's. I didn't find a sanctioned way to say Baenre on rasalvatore.com, but it would be silly if 'ae' and 'e' are the same sound.
Definitely. I'm not going to say buy-EN-ray is the official pronunciation (maybe it's BUY-en-ray), but it seems better to me than BANE-ray.
quote:
I don't agree about Seanchan if the alternative is to spell it phonetically.
Then how would you spell it to have it pronounced SHAWN-chen?
|
|
|
|
Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2003 : 19:35:23
|
'Ae' is pronounced 'ay' -- thus, I have absolutely no problem pronouncing 'Baenre' as 'bane-REE'; neither does my brother, and we've had lots of differences on pronounciation. (For example, he pronounces 'Elminster' as 'El-a-ments-ter' rather than 'El-min-ster.')I rather like the ae spelling. As I mentioned in another topic, I used to love putting in that combination into fantasy words and names. I admit, though, that the '-re' ending is confusing.
Guenhwyvar, I'm sorry to say, I used to pronounce 'goo-in-wee-var.' Fortunately, I finally slowed down, looked at the name, and came up with 'GWEN-eh-vaar.' I'm glad to know I ended up speaking it the same way as the 'official' method.
Phonetic spelling. Why? Because it's no sense sacrificing ease of pronounciation for the 'coolness' of the spelling? Have you even thought about that? Okay, you don't like Baenre. What would you use instead? Baneree? That ends up being read as bane-er-ee -- makes me think of 'bakery.'
Try making fantasy spellings sometime. Unless you want to devote as much time to it as Tolkein did, you'll end up with the sorts of things that fantasy writers -- real ones like Salvatore, or amateur ones like me -- have to do. And it's not an easy thing to do. You have to think about the different ways that it could be spelled, and try to find one that reads the way you want it.
It's very difficult, and it can be a frustrating thing. I've spent a lot of time thinking up names for even the most minor characters, obsessing over them to the point that I can't write anymore until I get it fixed.
It's because of that that my first D&D character got the name Kevin -- an ordinary, real-world name. Why? Mostly to poke fun at myself, for doing what I just said. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
|
|
|
Yasraena
Senior Scribe
USA
388 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2003 : 22:27:39
|
I've always pronounced Baenre as Bane-ray. I always used to pronounce Drizzt as DRIZ-it, until I saw the correct way to say it in the collectors hardback of the trilogy. (Drisst)
Guenhwyvar I pronounce GWEN-heh-var.
I haven't been able to find much on the actual pronunciation of the Drow language in the many sourcebooks I have on them, or on the 'net, so I just pronounce them as I think is right until I hear it from the sources own mouth.  |
"Nindyn vel'uss malar verin z'klaen tlu kyone ulu naut doera nindel vel'bolen nind malar."
Yasraena T'Sarran
Harper of Silverymoon |
|
|
|
Brynweir
Senior Scribe
USA
436 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2003 : 22:57:08
|
I'm sorry to be picky, but does it really matter how you say the names? Really, depending on what part of the world or even what part of the country (U.S) you're in, there will be dozens of different ways to pronounce names. It doesn't affect the story, and if you're using it in a campaign, just have the group agree on a pronunciation.
I have met two people both named Marquis. One says Mar- kees, and the other says Mar-kwees, because that is how their parents decided it would be said.
And how is Favre = Farv. Not to mention all the Polish names with silent Zs.
Unless you actually see it written phonetically from the author, or hear it from the author (or the author's close friends), then you won't know anyway.
 I apologize if this "who cares" attitude bothers anyone, but I have had students who get so hung up trying to pronounce characters names that they lose the meaning of the story or they never finish. I understand if it is a word that has some particular meaning, but to me you can use names you know and the meaning doesn't change. Pronunciation of names in books gives low level readers a hard time, and they have to be taught that it is okay to just call it "something" and go on. This is kind of a sore spot for me. |
Anyone who likes to read something that's really dark and gritty and completely awesome ought to read The Night Angel Trilogy by Brent Weeks. You can check out a little taste at www.BrentWeeks.com I should probably warn you, though, that it is definitely not PG-13 :-D
He also started a new Trilogy with Black Prism, which may even surpass the Night Angel Trilogy in its awesomeness. 
|
|
|
|
branmakmuffin
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2003 : 23:11:01
|
Bookwyrm:
quote:
<snip> Phonetic spelling. Why? Because it's no sense sacrificing ease of pronounciation for the 'coolness' of the spelling? Have you even thought about that? Okay, you don't like Baenre. What would you use instead? Baneree? That ends up being read as bane-er-ee -- makes me think of 'bakery.'
Phonetic spelling? You can't spell phonetically with a "normal" alphabet. If I wrote "YARD" and held it up as phonetic spelling, I can think of at least 4 diffferent ways to say it in American English. I would try to approximate in American English spelling (in this case) with somethign I would judge like to be pronounced BANE-ree.
Why is "Baenre" better than "Baneree"? Because it looks "cooler" and less like "bakery"? To the auther, I guess it does. But if I were to write a fantasy novel, I would spell words as I wanted them pronounced by my primary target audience. To do otherwise seems pedantic to me. Actually, "Bainree" is even better because "Baneree" risks being pronounced "BANE-er-ee".
quote:
Try making fantasy spellings sometime. Unless you want to devote as much time to it as Tolkein did, you'll end up with the sorts of things that fantasy writers -- real ones like Salvatore, or amateur ones like me -- have to do. And it's not an easy thing to do. You have to think about the different ways that it could be spelled, and try to find one that reads the way you want it.
It hardly takes a PhD in linguistics or philology. You say to yourself: I want this word to be pronounced "GRY-kor" (rhymes with "ichor"). How to spell it? "Graeichour"? Looks exotic. Lost of vowels stuck togther in the middle. But wait, how are people going to pronounce that? Guess I better go with "Grykor".
quote:
It's very difficult, and it can be a frustrating thing. I've spent a lot of time thinking up names for even the most minor characters, obsessing over them to the point that I can't write anymore until I get it fixed.
Thinking up names or thinking up pronunciations for the names? I agree coming up with names is hard, but once you come up with the name, all you have to do is spell it.
quote:
It's because of that that my first D&D character got the name Kevin -- an ordinary, real-world name. Why? Mostly to poke fun at myself, for doing what I just said.
My first D&D character's name was some goofy thing that I am railing against now.
Brynweir:
This board seems the perfect place to engage in quasi-learned pontification. Those who dislike it can ignore it. |
Edited by - branmakmuffin on 09 Jun 2003 23:19:44 |
|
|
|
Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2003 : 00:56:10
|
I ran into this problem with some of the Elric novels.
ELRIC OF MELNIBONE. (The last E has one of those accent marks over it). Is it MEL-na-Bon-ey or MEL na bon ay. I started with the first and have since heard others call it by the second and I changed years ago. I LOVE those alternate spellings. I love the ae, och (pronounced ohk). SOMETIMES the author spells a name to get a certain feel. For instance, if you had a viking character and you wanted to pronounce it HROK er, you could spell it Harokker, Hrokker, or Hrokkr. Sometimes names just look better with certain spellings.
The Viking name Hrimgnar pronounced RIM gin AR looks much better as Hrimgnar than Rimginar. Siegfried, hasa different feel than Sigfreed.
I think the way a name is spelled is EXTREMELY important. WHo cares if someone pronounces it wrong. A book is a book not a movie or a radio show. Appearance of the words are important.
I personally Love the spelling baenre. And what of Drizzt. Drizzit does not have the same flare, or even Drisst. Drizzt is HARD. Drisst is soft. A different image comes to mind. BANERAY looks sci-fi. Baenre looks archaic. It is very important for the mood.
|
A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
|
|
|
Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2003 : 04:39:45
|
Thanks, Mournblade, that was almost exactly the thing I was trying to convey earlier.
And Brynweir, I think that it's important to pronounce things the way they're 'supposed' to be pronounced. I cringe everytime I hear people say "Seltic" instead of Keltic. 'Celtic' is supposed to have a k-sound.  |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
|
|
|
branmakmuffin
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2003 : 05:43:29
|
You seem to argue against the point you you praise Mournblade for, Bookwyrm. You apparently agree with "Who cares how someone pronounces it?" Now, maybe that's not one of the points you agree with him on, in which case my point is, well, pointless, but it's not clear.
Then in response to Brynweir, you say pronunciation is very important. If pronuncation is very important, then the spelling should be such as to be most likely to lead to that pronunciation. This holds even if you're not agreeing with Mournblade on that other point.
Mournblade, Viking names are pronunced according to different rules from American English. Now that's of no matter to someone whose language is not American English, but that's my native language and I assume it's yours as well.
"Drizzt" being hard and "Drisst" being soft is your perception. Maybe it's also the opinion of most, but it's still a matter of opinion. |
|
|
|
Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2003 : 06:12:50
|
No, I was agreeing with Mournblade that pronounciation is very important, and a well-crafted name -- in both sight and sound -- sets the whole mood for any part of a story that that name is involved in.
To quote the Internet humorist and cartoonist Howard Tayler (a man I always can count on for a laugh) and his "Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates":
Rule #16: "Your name is in the mouths of others. Be sure it has teeth." |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
|
|
|
Zacas
Learned Scribe
USA
261 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2003 : 06:38:52
|
hrm.. I often tended to switch Baenre to be Bane-ree or Bane-ray... i dunno why... but then i used to pronounce drow using 'ow' like getting hurt... instead of Drow like throw as i think the BG games ended up using... or i have this backwards as i say both now... hehe...
It's all kinda like my last name... though i won't say it here... but it's a germanic/luxembourgean last name... has 3 vowels in a row... and often cofuses the heck out of people... in school i would ahve to say my last name before the teacher could to try and prevent them from feeling stupid for pronouncing it wrong... of which... i think maybe 5 teachers in the 15 years (includes the past 3 college years) of school actually got it right on the first try... |
I am like a superhero, with no powers or motivation.
I have gone to find myself. If I get back before I return, please keep me here.
People like you are the reason people like me are on medication. |
|
|
|
eilinel
Learned Scribe
France
296 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2003 : 15:29:00
|
well, if u see where celtic comes from, u'd understand why u pronounce seltic, it just comes from French and in French if u have an e or an i afer a c u pronouce it s.
This comes from the Francs who couldn't pronounce corectly latin ad changed it in a mix with their own langage.
|
|
|
|
branmakmuffin
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2003 : 18:02:30
|
eilinel:
quote:
well, if u see where celtic comes from, u'd understand why u pronounce seltic, it just comes from French and in French if u have an e or an i afer a c u pronouce it s.
This comes from the Francs who couldn't pronounce corectly latin ad changed it in a mix with their own langage.
It's pronounced "SEL-tik" by many Americans because that pronunciation rule holds true in English, not because it holds true in French.
The Celtic/Gaelic people of Brittany speak Breton, a Gaelic language no more related to French than Swedish is.
Bookwyrm:
If pronunciation is very important, then it's important to spell made-up words in such a way as to maximize the likliehood that the word will be pronounced the way you intend. Hence, if you want "Baenre" to be pronounced BANE-ray by American English speakers (and I will stress again that I'm not implying the world begins and ends with American English speakers), then spelling it "Baenre" is not a very good way to spell it. I say BUY-en-ray because I (sort of) speak French, and a smattering of other European languages, so I tend to pronounce made up words in a more or less "European" way. |
Edited by - branmakmuffin on 10 Jun 2003 18:12:34 |
|
|
|
Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2003 : 18:05:39
|
Pronunciation of Baenre revealed on wizards.com boards:
http://boards.wizards.com/rpg/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=170;t=001944
I don't think Seanchan is a good name except in an Irish context, but respelling it would just make the author seem illiterate. 'Sean' is a conventional English-language name anyway.
One reason mispronouncing names is bad is that it changes the balance and rhythm of sentences.
English 'Celt' is more from the Latin and Greek than the intermediary French. (But for some reason, the Scottish football team is pronounced with a soft c.) |
|
|
|
branmakmuffin
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2003 : 18:20:18
|
Faraer:
Why would spelling "Seanchan" S-H-A-W-N-C-H-A-N make Jordan look illiterate? Do the parents of Americans named Shawn or Shaun look illitirate?
That link seems to put to rest the notion that "Baenre" is pronounced "BANE-ray". |
|
|
|
Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2003 : 20:45:22
|
| It smells to me of ideas and words and art being processed to make them immediately accessible to everyone, like Miramax remakes of east Asian films, novelizations of films of books, crackpot spelling-regularization schemes. You wouldn't change the spelling in a novel set in Ireland. And if a writer wants to transplant it for some reason to another context, it may be for the appeal of the written word as much as the sound. |
|
|
|
Hymn
Senior Scribe
Sweden
514 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2003 : 20:54:52
|
| Just a question, isn't the drow language in FR based on Sachernas? (not 100% sure on the spelling) |
Sauro moki kara ochiro - Even monkeys falls from trees.
The path that leads to truth is littered with the bodies of the ignorant - Miyamoto Musashi |
|
|
|
Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2003 : 21:00:53
|
Bran, I also pronounce things in a European (mostly Latinized) manner. Why are people assuming I'm a hardcore, America-first person?  I'll have you know that I am the son of a Naval officer, and as such I've had plenty of experience with non-American cultures. I have not lived my entire life inside the borders of the United States. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
|
|
|
branmakmuffin
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2003 : 21:22:04
|
No, I wouldn't change the spelling of a novel set in Ireland, because those are real places. "Seanchan", "Baenre" and "Drizzt" are made up names. The authors could spell them any way they wanted. If they want "Drizzt" to be pronounced DRIST, then they shouldn't spell it D-R-I-Z-Z-T.
Maybe they don't really care how people pronounce the words, maybe they do.
Bookwyrm:
Who accused you of being provincial? I didn't. My saying that I'm not provincial was not meant to imply that I think you are. |
Edited by - branmakmuffin on 10 Jun 2003 21:25:50 |
|
|
|
Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2003 : 21:52:19
|
quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
Thanks, Mournblade, that was almost exactly the thing I was trying to convey earlier.
And Brynweir, I think that it's important to pronounce things the way they're 'supposed' to be pronounced. I cringe everytime I hear people say "Seltic" instead of Keltic. 'Celtic' is supposed to have a k-sound.
Sorry on this one Bookwyrm... Celtic can be pronounced EITHER way. No one really says one way or the other. Go to Ireland, go to Scotland, and Celtic is often pronounced seltic. I pronounce it with a K. At one time I beleived the myth that it was pronounced with a K, but after travelling to the actual C(K)eltic isles, I discovered no one really cares, and most scots pronounce it with an S.
|
A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
|
|
|
Strahd Von Zarovich
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
135 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2003 : 22:15:13
|
quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
Celtic can be pronounced EITHER way. No one really says one way or the other. Go to Ireland, go to Scotland, and Celtic is often pronounced seltic. I pronounce it with a K. At one time I beleived the myth that it was pronounced with a K, but after travelling to the actual C(K)eltic isles, I discovered no one really cares, and most scots pronounce it with an S.
Sorry about this one guys, but I am from the UK AND have Celtic blood, so I want to just point out something.
If you are in Scotland and you are talking about Celtic, then that is pronounced Sel-tik. This is a place name. If you are talking about Celts or the Celtic culture then that is pronounced KEL-TIC, or the KELTS.
Anyway this seems to be getting slightly off topic, thanks for the input on Drow pronunciation, however we don't seem to come to an agreement on how Salvatores created names should sound. So I guess we will leave it for you all to say it how you like.
Thanks again to all!
Strahd Von Zarovich |
Strahd Von Zarovich
Alaundo and I invite fans of everything D&D to join us!
http://www.worldsofdnd.com |
|
|
|
branmakmuffin
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2003 : 22:18:43
|
| Strahd, go to the link in Faraer's post. |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
Drow Pronunciation
