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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
 Posted - 04 Feb 2008 : 08:18:37
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This a question addressed to DMs and learned sages here at Candlekeep: what is a fair market price for a blank spell book in Faerun (figuring 100 sheets of parchment and no "extras")? I ask here instead of in "Running the Realms" because I really do want you most learned sages to offer me some guidance in this matter, and perhaps help to establish a general rule to guide other DMs in the future.
For a long time I have just told people to look up the price of a blank book in Aurora's Whole Realms Catalog, but last night a player balked at the huge disparity between the cost from Aurora and the (absurdly low) price listed in the PHB. I know about the Medieval book trade, and I've read what Ars Magica has to say about the construction of Hermetic books, from uterus to bookshelf, so -- after consulting both the 1st and 2nd edition AD&D DMGs (and The Complete Wizard's Handbook, to boot!), I ruled in favor of the Aurora's price. To be fair, I even calling upon old decisions of mine in which I have allowed people to use scraps of parchment or a stray piece of paper to write down a spell, so I ruled that a PHB-priced blank spellbook could be used as a spellbook, but because of its lack of premium materials the book and bindings themselves could not take any sort of protective enchantment.
Another question concerned the price of a "traveling spellbook," and what its size is and if it should justifiably cost twice as much as a spell-tome, even though it uses approximately half the materials. Again consulting my own books, I found a description of a spellbook as being the size of a big dictionary, and ruled that the "tome" sized blank books in Aurora's Catalog are "standard-sized" spellbooks, and the nine inch ones are the "traveling" versions.
I'm not unknowledgable about the rarity and value of Medieval (and even Renaissance) books, and -- coupled with the data from The Wizard's Grimoire of Ars Magica I think that I ruled reasonably that the smaller a hand-written book of the period becomes, the more expensive it is, because finer writing tools and more expert scribes are needed for small books. I have a natural-sized copy of selections from the Tres riches heurres (sp?), and it is obvious (to me, at last) that an important book the size of our little paperbacks would have to be Masterwork (justifying a big chunk of what Aurora charges), and I know that actual pocket-sized books were a product of the 17th and late 16th centuries, and were as much a product of current clothing and travel fashions as they were of more sophisticated printing techniques. Since Ed wrote "Small Presses of Waterdeep" I have envisioned these little books slowly becoming fashionable, but D&D spellbooks can't be mass-printed; each must be a work of individual craftsmanship. That's my take on the matter, but, again, "What do I know?"
Will the learned please contribute their thoughts on the subject of blank books? I am running another game session next weekend and I have said that I will abide by the consensus of the learned here assembled.
In the interim, I thank you all for your kind attention to this.
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4686 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2008 : 16:27:23
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Quick comment, when talking about blank spell books one smaller should not cost more then a large one. "I think that I ruled reasonably that the smaller a hand-written book of the period becomes, the more expensive it is, because finer writing tools and more expert scribes are needed for small books." does not apply, the Wizard/spell caster might need to purchase finer writing tools and/or hire a scribe (to copy only) which should not effect the actual cost of a blank book.
As for the actual cost of the books that is harder to guess at. The Realms are far more literate then was Medieval or Renaissance period of time in RW. With a greater supply of people able to read, there also would be a greater supply of books of all kinds. A blank spell book might need to be Masterwork or of finer quality then average book depending on what rule set you are using.
I still would go with the larger the book in material the more it will cost. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Stonwulfe
Seeker
Canada
81 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2008 : 22:16:45
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Jamallo & Kentinal,
The earliest available bound, blank journals available for sale were 'quartos', and were sold in the same manner as published works printed in the same way. They are - quite simply - large sheets of parchment, vellum, or crude paper that have been folded in four and sandwiched in a binding of sturdier stuff, usually calfskin or rough-hide, which is then sewn along the backseam. To 'turn the page' you have to cut along the folds to make the next page available. These books would not have been expensive; indeed, an enterprising (literate) farmer might purchase one for use as a ledger of farming materials, costs, and trades.
I typically charge my players 5 gp (50 sp) for an arcanabula (travelling spellbook, or quarto), and 50 gp (500 sp) for a tome. The latter usually consists of an extremely elaborate, and usually heavy, bound folio of three-hundred or more pages. Bindings for the latter can consist of wood-backed skin of a magical beast, tooled scale or heavy hide, or various other materials including bone and metal. The latter is usually used for storage and research, and not taken on adventures. |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2008 : 03:10:39
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Conversely, I did some research on a pair of tiny books of hours from the late Middle Ages. Each was three inches tall, two wide, and an inch deep. The parchment was very, very fine. While the small page size meant you could get a lot of pages out of one animal skin, getting that high a quality presents its own problems. For instance, it was not unheard of for the hide scrapers to nick through, leaving holes of various sizes in the parchment. Would something like that invalidate the sheet from being used? Regardless, the amount of processing for something like the books of hours took an exceedingly high amount of time, and would therefore have a correspondingly high price.
Second, I should mention that the authoritative parchment sources I found disagreed vehemently as to whether uterine velumn (parchment made with the skin of unborn calves) actually existed historically. Some said yes, others no, and still others sat on the fence. One source I read suggested that "uterine" parchment was simply parchment that had been split (though it didn't go into the specific procedures for doing such a task).
I'm not sure how I'd translate all of that into game terms, though. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2008 : 21:30:38
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The Wizard's Grimoire: Liber Tenebrum for Ars Magica, 3rd edition, pp 155-162 explains what you have said beutifully. I have tried to upload those pages to my own Yahoo group's Files section (with the copyright page, thank you very much, since it is not d20/OGL). Unfortunately, my current connection just ain't cuttin' the mustard!
I am not current on the debate over "uterine" vellum, but I am aware that there is some debate on the topic. My ruling last session was that it went from womb to bookshelf. I run my game as "low fantasy," so a discussion of exactly how parchment is made and books are bound would not be unlikely to occur, but I vastly prefer that it occur as role-playing, not as a lecture from me. One of the PCs actually has "{rofession (Printer)," so his character might be involved in such a discussion, but the group's wizards, much as it might affect them.
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2008 : 23:26:54
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| Magic of Faerun contains extensive rules on spellbook binding, creation, enchanting, type of material used, etc. |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2008 : 00:57:29
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Well, be aware that printing presses don't work very well at all with parchment. I forget the exact problem, but I think it's a combination of parchment's texture and ability to absorb ink (vs the kind of ink presses required), coupled with how it responds under the pressure of the press. In any case, for all intents and purposes, you can't use parchment in printing presses. Which means your player would know that, and probably little else about parchment. He'd be able to go on for hours about inking, press maintence, and his opinions on paper stock, however.
I don't have a problem with requiring uterine vellum for spellbooks, just chalk it up to an odd component, like the old magic item creation rules. One modern book I read said that uterine vellum is still made today in Columbia and Venezuela, but I wasn't able to confirm that. A different book expressed incredulity at the idea that thousands of cows were forced to miscarry for centuries on end to create all the supposed uterine vellum. It's a fairly compelling argument (though other books disagree equally eloquently), but if we're talking magic, we can just say that it's flat-out required for spellbooks (and, optionally, scrolls), whereas all other books can be normal parchment. The problem of forced miscarriage (since demand for spellbooks would far outstrip the supply of normal miscarriages) would be just one more thing to spike the price. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
Edited by - Hoondatha on 06 Feb 2008 01:00:28 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4686 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2008 : 03:36:33
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*sighs* Realms is not Earth. There clearly are some things that work the same, however other things clearly are not the same.
Talk about printing blank spellbooks makes no sense at at. A blank book is like a note pad and is not prinred on by anyone. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2008 : 04:32:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
Magic of Faerun contains extensive rules on spellbook binding, creation, enchanting, type of material used, etc.
Ah ha! Thank you! I don't have a copy of my own so I couldn't consult it on the spur of the moment, yet the complaining player had it there all along in his books. The relevant pages are 172-174.
I have already asked The Hooded One how Ed has dealt with blank spellbooks in the games she's played with him. (Yes, yes, go ahead and chuckle -- there's no way I can grammatically fail to make that sentence a double entendre.)
I intend to ask Sean K. Reynolds if he still supports the low price for books or if he'd change it in an erratum or raise it in the upcoming edition, and what he thinks of doubling the price of a miniature book.
I shall post the replies of the mighty here when they are proclaimed. In the meantime, let's all feel free to use this scroll to discuss bookmaking in the Realms. And maybe numbers running, too.
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2008 : 08:05:42
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Kentinal: Who said anything about printing blank spellbooks? For one thing, that's an oxymoron. If it was printed, it wouldn't be blank.
We've sort of thrown all of the old paper/parchment technologies into the mix in this thread in an effort to better understand everything. Obviously, if a book is printed, a single sheet of paper (historically not parchment) is stamped, then folded into the proper size signature before being sewn into a book. The same often (though not always) happened for sheets of parchment, only they were written, not printed.
What we're talking about with blank spellbooks requires something that illustrations suggest may have been rare in historical Earth: the creation of a blank book to be written in later. Parchment, for instance, was scraped and rubbed with stone again just before it was written upon, to get rid of as much oil as possible.
Which actually brings up an interesting point: palimpsests. The writing on parchment could be fairly easily disolved/scraped away, leaving a clean or mostly clean sheet ready for reuse. It was common practice, since parchment was so expensive. So, do you think you could do that with a spellbook? You can understand the temptation, especially if we move into more exotic materials like dragon skin. Do you think the old writing would contaminate the sheet, or would it work just fine. A magical palimpsest might offer hints to perhaps forbidden magics under the spell you're studying (early Christian scribes reused a great number of pagan works, for instance). I think you'd need a very scholoarly-minded group, but it could be fun. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4686 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2008 : 08:46:48
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Hoondatha, well actually Jamallo and you have both referred to printing things. Book binding is different then runing though a printing press or having a scribe copy into a book.
As far as reuse of a spell book, erase appears to be a better spell then using the dagger. *wink*
And most Wizards should learn that spell. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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tauster
Senior Scribe
Germany
399 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2008 : 10:58:18
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I like the adiea of palimpsests as adventure hooks!.
"parchment-recycling" might be a side-business of a shop who deals in books, papers and parchments. Imagine a book-trader* who buys an old and damaged copy of a book that is relatively common. The copy is too damaged to be of any worth, so he decides to have his apprentice clean the parchment pages (or, if the apprentice is a mage, use the erase spell on the paper pages). the still damaged but now more or less** empty book is then sold for a lower price.
* I recommend "The Ninth Gate", a great movie about old (and occult) books and their histories, book collectors and hunters and the difficulties of obtaining specific copies of a book. The whole movie can be a great inspiration for a wizard-centered or book-centered adventure/campaign.
** Thats where the adventure hook comes in: the apprentice did either clean the parchment pages not well enough or has not yet mastered the erase spell completely. some passages are still readable... |
Edited by - tauster on 06 Feb 2008 10:59:51 |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2008 : 11:14:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Hoondatha, well actually Jamallo and you have both referred to printing things. Book binding is different then runing though a printing press or having a scribe copy into a book.
As far as reuse of a spell book, erase appears to be a better spell then using the dagger. *wink*
And most Wizards should learn that spell.
Now, now, tempers, please, gentle scholars!
I did not think I needed to go into detail about the printer, but he is a scribe, too, and would thus be likely to know about a wide variety of writing surfaces, most of which play merry hob with a printing press. (When was the last time you managed to get a good impression on a clay tablet with a printing press? And marble? Phhht -- not a chance! You might as well try to make gold slugs on a Linotype machine!)
I find the mention of palimpsests of particular personal interest to me at this time, because I am eagerly awaiting my copy of the book The Archimedes Codex, about a palimpsest which may prove that Archimedes discovered the calculus two thousand years before Newton and Leibniz. What might be on a palimpsest from ancient Toril? A lab record of Karsus's experiments with heavy magic? Iolaum's notes about immortality? An Imaskari text detailing how to repel divine magic? ¿Quien sabe?
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2008 : 13:52:33
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While I don't rave about The Ninth Gate, as some do, as far as I know, it is the only major motion picture to have a book hunter/dealer as the central character. Tauster is right about it providing inspiration. A MAJOR spoiler follows:
NINTH GATE SPOILER: The book hunter (Johnny Depp) learns that of the few rare copies of a grimoire which are known to exist, each one has a unique difference in a single drawing, and it is only by tracking down every remaining volume that Depp gains the knowledge to summon -- or stop the summoning of -- the Devil himself. The ending was a little weak, in my opinion, but the book searches (and the private libraries!) are fascinating.
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4686 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2008 : 16:04:17
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I am not mad, just pointed out printing is different then book binding.
As for price to charge, or even if can be paper vs. parchment. Personally I would use Campaign Gude and/or Core rules for price instead of Aurora's Catalog prices. Unless at start of campain you told players that the Aurora's Catalog prices would be used in the game. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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tauster
Senior Scribe
Germany
399 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2008 : 16:50:23
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Concerning spellbook prices: I'm not sure if anyone already mentioned the numbers that 2e's DMG states:
- each spell needs x pages in a spellbook, while x = [spell level] + [1d6-1], so magic missile, being a 1st-level spell, would need one to six pages, depending on the mage who penned the spell
- no spellbook can have more than 100 pages
- travelling spellbooks can have a maximum of 50 pages
- (magical) scrolls can have no more than 25 pages
- one PAGE(!) for a regular spellbook costs 50 gp, for a travelling spellbook that price doubles to 100 gp - although I might have misinterpreted that price as the cost of inks and misc materials needed to scribe a spell.
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Edited by - tauster on 06 Feb 2008 16:54:57 |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2008 : 18:40:41
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I've done a little bit of work with palimpsests. Generally it's just a couple of pages, and the quality of erasure varies widely. With some, the ink is barely erased at all, but with most it's almost entirely gone. Several of the books I looked at required a magnifying glass to be able to make out the letters.
I think they'd be a great amount of fun for a DM. Make it from Karsus, start it "After having completed the concoction," give a long list of complicated things you do to the (unknown) liquid, and end it with "However, it is critical for success that you..." and end it. Watch your players go nuts. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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tauster
Senior Scribe
Germany
399 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2008 : 19:01:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
I think they'd be a great amount of fun for a DM. Make it from Karsus, start it "After having completed the concoction," give a long list of complicated things you do to the (unknown) liquid, and end it with "However, it is critical for success that you..." and end it. Watch your players go nuts.
I once had my players clean out a dungeon below the Anauroch that had been the abode of a powerful Netherese necromancer. The whole (formerly dwarven) complex was sealed during the fall of Netheril, that destroyed the mage and trapped his servants ever since: five powerful vampires, gone mad in all the centuries of being captured without blood.
After the showdown the party discovered what must have been the Netherese necromancer's library: several bookshelves full of tomes, probably filled with ancient lore. Watching their glee was almost as good as seeing their faces change when they realized that not only the writings where written in a tongue they couldn't read but probably also encoded - AND that virtually EVERY page was used by the mad vampires as diary: the vamps had just scribbled over the existing text, and in a dreadful scrawl to boot!  
"Going nuts" was exactly what my players did. 
They stuffed the books nevertheless in their portable whole, unloaded the whole collection on the desk of a sage in Tilverton (1371 DR) they are on very good terms with - and waited for news of the poor chap gleaning anything meaningful from the books ever since.
...which leaves me with a very convenient way to introduce spells, treasure maps, old/exotic lore, whatever I need or want.  |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2008 : 10:40:57
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Sean J. Reynolds definitively answered my question about whether or not to use Aurora's prices. He basically said that it's a buyer's market, so blank books are cheap, and the cost in Magic of Faerun should be used.
Hmmm ... I still don't know the size and cost of a traveling spellbook, though. Back to Sean's scroll I merrily go!
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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tauster
Senior Scribe
Germany
399 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2008 : 16:00:34
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I disagree with SKR (see my post in the thread), but that doesn't help you any further with your price question, pardon the pun. ;)
I would recommend using the prices from 2e's DMG, see above. Wizardry should be expensive, regardless what the rules say. jm2c... |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2008 : 17:27:45
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quote:
Originally posted by tauster
I disagree with SKR (see my post in the thread), but that doesn't help you any further with your price question, pardon the pun. ;)
I would recommend using the prices from 2e's DMG, see above. Wizardry should be expensive, regardless what the rules say. jm2c...
Having just taken a quick glance at the 2E DMG, I'm not sure where you came up with those prices -- especially since the 2E PHB prices a sheet of paper at 2 gp. But the prices you quote would put a traveling spellbook well outside the range of what a low-level wizard could afford (a 50-page book would be 5000 gp, by your numbers!). So if the wizard can't have a traveling spellbook, he can't adventure -- which means he can never get the money to buy a traveling spellbook. So you'd condemn all wizards to forever remain low-level, unless they somehow (and at first level!) luck into a large sum of money.
I agree that wizardry should be pricy, but it shouldn't be so pricy that it prevents wizardry from happening. Many spell components are pricy, scrolls often require exotic inks, and most magical items require expensive stuff for their construction. And the labs and support equipment for doing this stuff is also pricy.
There are more than enough ways to separate a wizard from his gold without having to make books arbitrarily and unreasonably expensive. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 07 Feb 2008 18:07:33 |
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tauster
Senior Scribe
Germany
399 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2008 : 18:52:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
[quote]Originally posted by tauster
I disagree with SKR (see my post in the thread), but that doesn't help you any further with your price question, pardon the pun. ;)
I would recommend using the prices from 2e's DMG, see above. Wizardry should be expensive, regardless what the rules say. jm2c...
Having just taken a quick glance at the 2E DMG, I'm not sure where you came up with those prices -- especially since the 2E PHB prices a sheet of paper at 2 gp. But the prices you quote would put a traveling spellbook well outside the range of what a low-level wizard could afford (a 50-page book would be 5000 gp, by your numbers!). So if the wizard can't have a traveling spellbook, he can't adventure -- which means he can never get the money to buy a traveling spellbook. So you'd condemn all wizards to forever remain low-level, unless they somehow (and at first level!) luck into a large sum of money.
You'll find these prices in 2e's DMG, in chapter "Magic" (sub-chapters "spell book cost" and "How many pages in a spell book?". Dunno the exact page number since I only have the German version. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4686 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2008 : 19:37:47
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2nd DMG papes 41,42 mostly discusses spell books.
2nd infers most Wizards make their own spell book as oposed to buying them.
The price per page indeed is 50 per page for a spell book, 100 per page for a traveling spell book.
The cost of the book however appears to be based on number of spells placed in it and number of pages each spell takes. Further there is no requirement to have a traveling spell book of 50 pages. That is maximun pages. A travelling spell book might only be 10 pages and contain 2 to 10 1st level spells. The small book would still cost much up to 1,000. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2008 : 19:42:50
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Ah, okay, I found the reference.
Considering that that's a 2E rule, and that it's incredibly restrictive to mages (and also contradicts information in the PHB: namely, if a single sheet of paper only costs 2gp, where does the rest of that price come from?), I'd certainly ignore it and go with the 3.x rules.
And if you insist on using 2E costs, at least use the costs from a Realms product, instead of a generic one. Aurora's Whole Realms Catalogue lists several blank books in the "Scribes' Desk" section. The most expensive one listed, adding an excellent lock and not going exotic on materials, is 1200 gp - and that's an oversized (15" x 20") tome with 500 pages! |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2008 : 22:43:26
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I have asked Ed (some two or three months ago?) about bookbinding (styles, racial variations/customs, history, materials, etc.) in the Realms, and I hope that he will eventually answer my questions! 
Off-topic: I'm currently binding (i.e. repairing) my copy of 'FR Adventures', as it has been in a terrible shape for years (I loaned it to another gaming group, and I was so stunned at its shape when they returned it that I didn't even ask them to pay for it  ). Although I'm quite terrible at bookbinding, I *think* I'm going to succeed in restoring it to "near-mint" condition
P.S.: Jamallo, I take it that you're a fellow librarian? |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2008 : 22:47:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Ah, okay, I found the reference.
Considering that that's a 2E rule, and that it's incredibly restrictive to mages (and also contradicts information in the PHB: namely, if a single sheet of paper only costs 2gp, where does the rest of that price come from?), I'd certainly ignore it and go with the 3.x rules.
And if you insist on using 2E costs, at least use the costs from a Realms product, instead of a generic one. Aurora's Whole Realms Catalogue lists several blank books in the "Scribes' Desk" section. The most expensive one listed, adding an excellent lock and not going exotic on materials, is 1200 gp - and that's an oversized (15" x 20") tome with 500 pages!
I whole-heartedly agree, because 2500-5000 GPs is a ridiculous sum for a blank spellbook. Originally we just assumed that your wizard's master would pay the cost for a book of 50 pages (and that Clear Prism component for 'Read Magic' -- another 1000 GPs IIRC ;)). When 'Aurora' came out, we used the numbers in it as official "errata" for the cost. I'm glad that Sean had also thought of this in 3E. |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2008 : 23:47:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Ah, okay, I found the reference.
Considering that that's a 2E rule, and that it's incredibly restrictive to mages (and also contradicts information in the PHB: namely, if a single sheet of paper only costs 2gp, where does the rest of that price come from?), I'd certainly ignore it and go with the 3.x rules.
And if you insist on using 2E costs, at least use the costs from a Realms product, instead of a generic one. Aurora's Whole Realms Catalogue lists several blank books in the "Scribes' Desk" section. The most expensive one listed, adding an excellent lock and not going exotic on materials, is 1200 gp - and that's an oversized (15" x 20") tome with 500 pages!
I whole-heartedly agree, because 2500-5000 GPs is a ridiculous sum for a blank spellbook. Originally we just assumed that your wizard's master would pay the cost for a book of 50 pages (and that Clear Prism component for 'Read Magic' -- another 1000 GPs IIRC ;)). When 'Aurora' came out, we used the numbers in it as official "errata" for the cost. I'm glad that Sean had also thought of this in 3E.
Sean ruled that in most cases a Wizard's starting spellbook is a "traveling spellbook," which permits the Wizard time to save up gold for (or find!) a "tome-sized" book, which would be for use in the Wizard's home base (which I would say that most Wizzes don't have until they are third level or higher, unless they are low-levels joining a very well-established and well-endowed professional adventuring company or an existing whatchamcallit -- anaffiliation or some such jargon?).
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2008 : 00:42:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
I have asked Ed (some two or three months ago?) about bookbinding (styles, racial variations/customs, history, materials, etc.) in the Realms, and I hope that he will eventually answer my questions!
(snip)
P.S.: Jamallo, I take it that you're a fellow librarian?
Once upon a time in my mis-spent youth....
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2008 : 03:31:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
I have asked Ed (some two or three months ago?) about bookbinding (styles, racial variations/customs, history, materials, etc.) in the Realms, and I hope that he will eventually answer my questions!
(snip)
P.S.: Jamallo, I take it that you're a fellow librarian?
Once upon a time in my mis-spent youth....
"Mis-spent youth" and "librarian" are words rarely found together in the same sentence. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Stonwulfe
Seeker
Canada
81 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2008 : 23:40:39
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| I think that ultimately it all comes down to how stark-raving-mad you want to drive your players in the pursuit of a spellbook. By making them accessible, but not necessarily readily affordable, you provide a measure of control. However, to the prolific and inventive spellcaster in your game, who may need many tomes to store all the spells they are amassing, exorbhorant costs may become more of a snub point than a control measure. |
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Cost and size of a blank spellbook in Faerun
