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Slaygrim
Learned Scribe
111 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Jan 2008 : 21:20:36
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Freedom of Movement, such as the ring, prevents a character from being paralyzed, held by spell, etc. But how about Stun, such as Power Word Stun. It's not quite the same so my gaming group is debating this. Does a Freedom of Movement protect you from Power Word Stun?
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4686 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2008 : 22:35:41
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What version are you playing?
3.5 quote:
This spell enables you or a creature you touch to move and attack normally for the duration of the spell, even under the influence of magic that usually impedes movement, such as paralysis, solid fog, slow, and web.
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A stunned creature drops everything held, can’t take actions, takes a -2 penalty to AC, and loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any).
quote:
You utter a single word of power that instantly causes one creature of your choice to become stunned, whether the creature can hear the word or not. The duration of the spell depends on the target’s current hit point total. Any creature that currently has 151 or more hit points is unaffected by power word stun.
I would rule that the higher level spell applies, Freedom of movement is 7th level and Power word stun is 8th level, if using 3.5 rules. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Slaygrim
Learned Scribe
111 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2008 : 05:18:13
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| 3.5 is the version we use. :) |
Watch my gorgeous wife sing at:
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2008 : 01:00:16
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| Yep. Stun has nothing to do with being held and paralyzation. Freedom of Movement is already enough powerful as is... (i.e. you automatically succeed on opposed roll to resist being grappled... some monsters have grapple checks of +65 at ECL 20, so it's a good little ring to have! :) ) |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2008 : 12:40:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
Yep. Stun has nothing to do with being held and paralyzation. Freedom of Movement is already enough powerful as is... (i.e. you automatically succeed on opposed roll to resist being grappled... some monsters have grapple checks of +65 at ECL 20, so it's a good little ring to have! :) )
I interpreted it more like a magical resistance to movement restricting magic. But now you mention grapple attacks. So you say it works against grapple, too? I did not know that. Is this a 3.5 rule or was it included in 3.0 already?
If it works against a grapple than does it also free you from chains and the likes working like an automatic 'escape artist check'? |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
Edited by - Ergdusch on 29 Jan 2008 12:42:11 |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2008 : 23:18:54
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Absolutely Ergdusch! look at the spell:
Freedom of Movement
Abjuration
Level: Brd 4, Clr 4, Drd 4, Luck 4, Rgr 4
Components: V, S, M, DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal or touch
Target: You or creature touched
Duration: 10 min./level
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)
This spell enables you or a creature you touch to move and attack normally for the duration of the spell, even under the influence of magic that usually impedes movement, such as paralysis, solid fog, slow, and web. The subject automatically succeeds on any grapple check made to resist a grapple attempt, as well as on grapple checks or Escape Artist checks made to escape a grapple or a pin.
The spell also allows the subject to move and attack normally while underwater, even with slashing weapons such as axes and swords or with bludgeoning weapons such as flails, hammers, and maces, provided that the weapon is wielded in the hand rather than hurled. The freedom of movement spell does not, however, allow water breathing.
Material Component: A leather thong, bound around the arm or a similar appendage.
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2008 : 07:56:12
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Its written in the spell discription! No way. I'll have to check that immediatly!
THERE! I knew I never read that before. Its a 3.5 newbie. I still have the 3.0 rules and there the spell discription is missing the last sentence of the first paragraph (with grapple/escape artist/pin).
Now, does that not make it a bit too powerful, I wonder? It gives the person not only certainresistances to magic but also turns him into one of those skane people. What is your experiencewith this spell in play? |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
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Slaygrim
Learned Scribe
111 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2008 : 16:41:43
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The question is: Is Stun fall under the same rules as Paralysis, Slow, Web, Grapple, etc?
Paralysis, Web, Grapple, Slow, etc... they all have to do with the muscles. Stun is more of the mind. You're stunned and unable to think or react. Does this fall under the description? |
Watch my gorgeous wife sing at:
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2008 : 18:35:20
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| My opinion is that stun is not negated by Freedom of Movement. It's a major condition and they would have included it in the spell description for clarity's sake (like they did for grapple, paralysis, etc.) |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2008 : 21:54:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
My opinion is that stun is not negated by Freedom of Movement. It's a major condition and they would have included it in the spell description for clarity's sake (like they did for grapple, paralysis, etc.)
I would agree with PDK on this! |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
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Slaygrim
Learned Scribe
111 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2008 : 15:37:23
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Thanks guys. That's precisely what I needed an answer for. It did appear to be a glaring omission for the spell Freedom of Movement, but the confusion was because they didn't suggest that it wouldn't apply to stun either. Usually they would be clear about such a thing, either on the description of FoM or for a spell such as PWStun, but it simply wasn't mentioned in any way.
I too believe that FoM does not apply to Stun, but something should. That's such a fight ending spell you would think there would be SOMETHING to counter it... |
Watch my gorgeous wife sing at:
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4686 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2008 : 16:02:46
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There is Freedom spell.
9th level it does " The subject is freed from spells and effects that restrict its movement, including binding, entangle, grappling, imprisonment, maze, paralysis, petrification, pinning, sleep, slow, stunning, temporal stasis, and web."
Only thing I found so far that deals with Stun. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4686 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2008 : 16:24:49
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Heal Level 6 or 7
"It immediately ends any and all of the following adverse conditions affecting the Target: ability damage, blinded, confused, dazed, dazzled, deafened, diseased, exhausted, fatigued, feebleminded, insanity, nauseated, sickened, stunned, and poisoned."
Heal, Mass Level 9
"Targets: One or more creatures, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart
This spell functions like heal, except as noted above."
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2008 : 17:01:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Ergdusch
If it works against a grapple than does it also free you from chains and the likes working like an automatic 'escape artist check'?
I wouldn't think it would allow you to escape from manacles automatically, the escape artist use they are citing is using escape artist in place of your grapple check specifically.
Well, the more I look at it the more I can see an argument for escaping from bindings (ie. tied rope, net, manacles, ect) but . . . nah, the more I think about it the more it seems to me that if you allowed the escape from something like manacles then it would be impossible to say that a barred window would be an obstacle and I certainly think that a barred window would stop a character under the effects of this spell. |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2008 : 11:47:18
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quote:
Originally posted by ShadezofDis
quote:
Originally posted by Ergdusch
If it works against a grapple than does it also free you from chains and the likes working like an automatic 'escape artist check'?
I wouldn't think it would allow you to escape from manacles automatically, the escape artist use they are citing is using escape artist in place of your grapple check specifically.
Well, the more I look at it the more I can see an argument for escaping from bindings (ie. tied rope, net, manacles, ect) but . . . nah, the more I think about it the more it seems to me that if you allowed the escape from something like manacles then it would be impossible to say that a barred window would be an obstacle and I certainly think that a barred window would stop a character under the effects of this spell.
Indeed! It depands on how the spell works, IMO.
Do you escape the manacles because your bones are able to shift, dislocate and relocate without pain (like snake-people?)? If this would actually be the case the barred window would not be a problem either (as you should be able to sqeeze through as well).
Would would you think?
IMO this runs strongly against MY understanding of the spell. Therefore I would not allow automatic escape artist or grapple checks.
However, this problem does not need to be solved for me in-game as I still use the 3.0 version of the spell, which does not mention this at all.  |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
Edited by - Ergdusch on 01 Feb 2008 11:48:31 |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2008 : 11:22:49
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I recalled this discussion while reading the WotC's 'Sage Advice' collumn from 02/26/2008:
'Q: Does the freedom of movement spell protect a character from being stunned? The argument is that "stun" is a condition that hinders movement.
A: Freedom of movement is one of those tricky spells that has a lot of open-ended wording that might lead to confusion. The spell becomes much more manageable if you just look at it as something that ignores any physical impediment to movement or actions. If you assign this restriction, then it makes sense that freedom of movement works against solid fog, slow, and web; each of these spells puts something in the way of the creature that stops them from moving/acting, or specifically targets the creature’s physical movement.
With this interpretation, spells and effects like hold person that apply a mental impediment to taking any action would not be bypassed by freedom of movement. These are mental effects and freedom of movement only helps you bypass physical effects (such as solid fog) or effects that specifically impede just your movement, not spells that stop you from taking any action, as hold person does.
In the same vein, freedom of movement would not work on someone who had been turned to stone by a medusa’s gaze or by a flesh to stone spell.
To answer the original question, being stunned is one of those mental effects and would normally deny a creature the ability to act at all. Since it’s not specifically focused on just impeding movement, and it is a mental, not physical impediment, freedom of movement would not help a stun creature to act or move normally.
This interpretation of freedom of movement may make it easier to adjudicate the effects of the spell, but it is also more restrictive. As always, it will ultimately be up to the Dungeon Master to make the best call as he sees fit for his campaign and play session.'
There you have it, the answer, by the design team of Wizards itself. |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
Edited by - Ergdusch on 26 Feb 2008 11:24:33 |
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Amraz one arm
Acolyte
Netherlands
42 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2008 : 14:21:17
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| I have an other question regarding this topic. Does freedom of movement keep you from sinking. (Mud or water, or any other liquid)? Can one for example walk on water with this spell? |
"You smell human to me." |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2008 : 14:43:22
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| No... water walk is the spell you want here. |
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Amraz one arm
Acolyte
Netherlands
42 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2008 : 15:06:58
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| Ok let me rephrase this. Some pc is drowning in a lake, wearing full plate. He slips on his ring of freedom of movement. Could he besides taking no penalties for underwater-fighting. Move thru the water, like he's threading on it? And in doing so move his head out of the water? |
"You smell human to me." |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2008 : 15:20:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Amraz one arm
Ok let me rephrase this. Some pc is drowning in a lake, wearing full plate. He slips on his ring of freedom of movement. Could he besides taking no penalties for underwater-fighting. Move thru the water, like he's threading on it? And in doing so move his head out of the water?
Freedom of movement just allows someone to move normally. So he'd be able to run across the bottom of the lake as readily as he ran across dry land, but he wouldn't suddenly be able to bob to the surface without swimming. |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2008 : 15:47:09
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As per DMG, Freedom of Movement lets you move "normally" in underwater settings. I'd adjudicate that as your normal land speed whether you walk at the bottom or swim (see below).
Table: Combat Adjustments Underwater
————— Attack/Damage —————
Condition Slashing or Bludgeoning Tail Movement Off Balance?4
Freedom of movement normal/normal normal/normal normal No
Has a swim speed –2/half normal normal No
Successful Swim check –2/half1 –2/half quarter or half2 No
Firm footing3 –2/half –2/half half No
None of the above –2/half –2/half normal Yes
1 A creature without a freedom of movement effects or a swim speed makes grapple checks underwater at a –2 penalty, but deals damage normally when grappling.
2 A successful Swim check lets a creature move one-quarter its speed as a move action or one-half its speed as a full-round action.
3 Creatures have firm footing when walking along the bottom, braced against a ship’s hull, or the like. A creature can only walk along the bottom if it wears or carries enough gear to weigh itself down—at least 16 pounds for Medium creatures, twice that for each size category larger than Medium, and half that for each size category smaller than Medium.
4 Creatures flailing about in the water (usually because they failed their Swim checks) have a hard time fighting effectively. An off-balance creature loses its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class, and opponents gain a +2 bonus on attacks against it.
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Edited by - Purple Dragon Knight on 26 Feb 2008 15:48:40 |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2008 : 09:28:11
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A follow-up question on the underwater function of this spell: What happens if the body of water was not a still lake but a fast moving stream!? Would you have to consoder the current as impediment (like strong winds on dry land maybe?!) or does the spell allow you to ignore this natural effect as well?
If yo would this work on land as well to overcome strong winds?
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"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2008 : 19:00:44
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| The Sage Advice column on the WotC site is currently covering questions on the freedom of movement spell. |
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Edited by - Hawkins on 27 Feb 2008 19:01:30 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4686 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2008 : 19:11:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Ergdusch
A follow-up question on the underwater function of this spell: What happens if the body of water was not a still lake but a fast moving stream!? Would you have to consoder the current as impediment (like strong winds on dry land maybe?!) or does the spell allow you to ignore this natural effect as well?
If yo would this work on land as well to overcome strong winds?
All physical impedents are ignored. A fast current underwater or a high wind on surface will not prevent normal movement. Just like walking though a web at a normal rate. A DM can rule that great force could lift the character off surface and be subjected to being carried by the water current or the high wind. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Freedom of Movement...
