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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1419 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Jan 2008 : 04:25:40
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Basically, this is an issue brought up regarding a question in the Ed Greenwood thread as to whether The Paladin King Gareth Dragonsbane has fallen for fostering Genocide of the Goblin peoples (amongst other "monster" races).
I hope Ed answers.
So, what's your take on what's the right way to deal with Monsterkind? Remember, in some campaigns, Orcs and company are Pure Evil without souls so there's no *wrong* answer here.
As for me, don't get me wrong, My player characters are almost walking embodiments of Charles Darwin's Natural Selection Principle. I think they've wiped out whole zip-codes of Faerun's population at various points in their careers. There's the Tuigan Horde, the Armies of Zhentil Keep, Enslaved Armies of Thay, and do undead count or not? :D
I think that our player characters might well live by this song.
*warning-gratituous Animated Lich on Animated Peasant Violence!*
Slaughter the World
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcbazH6aE2g
Just a typical day in the Realms for Ssass Tam.
But yes, it's pretty much an established part of the world that Drow aside, the majority of Realms villagers don't break out the pitch-folks when a Gnoll is present unless he's in a large group with torches on the back of wargs with the "Riders of Doom" By Basil playing in the background.
(I think Ed said so in one of his answers)
At least in my campaigns, you have Orc Dockworkers and Kobold Miners in Waterdeep even if you don't want to serve them alongside the Dwarves or Gnomes.
You kill Orcs when they hit first and don't tend to wipe them off the face of existence unless you're Chaotic Evil (in which case, good for you!)
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2008 : 04:38:14
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I disagree with your idea of orc dock workers, and I think lore supports me on this.
From The North, pg 14: "Half-orcs: Given the vast orc population and the amount of raiding, one might suspect a plague of these half-breeds, yet there are few. Northerners have a distinct dislike for anything even vaguely orcish, and only the most human-looking half-orc can pass safely among northern folk."
This tells me that not only are orcs killed on sight, but most of their half-orc offspring are as well. Orc hordes are perhaps the largest "bogey man" of the North, and I think the sight of orcs quite rightly evokes powerful responses.
In my campaign, I've never seen a contradiction of "good" people, and especially elves and dwarves, doing "evil" things like killing orc women and children. They've been engaged in a genocidal war for over ten thousand years, and the hatred is deep on both sides.
And we know from Thornhold that paladins don't have any qualms about killing people who get in their way, including "good" races like elves, so I don't see any problem with a paladin offering bounties on slain orcs. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1419 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2008 : 04:45:30
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I disagree with your idea of orc dock workers, and I think lore supports me on this.
From The North, pg 14: "Half-orcs: Given the vast orc population and the amount of raiding, one might suspect a plague of these half-breeds, yet there are few. Northerners have a distinct dislike for anything even vaguely orcish, and only the most human-looking half-orc can pass safely among northern folk."
It suggests that they're not liked but that's a long way from being killed on sight. The idea of prejudice runs terribly deep amongst them but the Orcs in my lands are treated with distinct racism and occasional bursts of violence, not a genocidal attack on sight feeling.
In my campaign, I've never seen a contradiction of "good" people, and especially elves and dwarves, doing "evil" things like killing orc women and children. They've been engaged in a genocidal war for over ten thousand years, and the hatred is deep on both sides.
Very true, however, the majority of the people of the North are more inclined to leave the Goblinkind and Orcish peoples alone than strike first. Those that are engaged in murderous genocidal tactics are those whom are Evil themselves in alignment or Chaotic Neutral in my games.
Yes, even Elves and Dwarves.
And we know from Thornhold that paladins don't have any qualms about killing people who get in their way, including "good" races like elves, so I don't see any problem with a paladin offering bounties on slain orcs.
Thornhold is like the ultimate example of the worst Paladins in history. Well, actually, its the result of the abominable Paladin's Handbook but that's neither here nor there. But yes, suffice to say, the Paladins there are decidedly fallen for murdering Orchish children and it's displayed as an evil act.
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2008 : 04:59:28
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That's your opinion, and in your campaign you're welcome to it. However, I would be curious if you can find any citations from sources to back up your claim. I've already given an example bolstering mine. I don't think "can pass safely" means "faces discrimination." I think it means that they are killed. That's why "there are few" half-breeds, when there have been centuries of orc rape and pillage.
And the only fallen paladin in Thornhold was the one who worked with the Zhents. Algorind wasn't fallen, but agreed that those who got in the way of paladins on their quest for justice deserved what they got. Nor did he fall thereafter.
My problem with your argument, summed up as: "the majority of the people of the North are more inclined to leave the Goblinkind and Orcish peoples alone than strike first," is that I've never seen anything in the sourcebooks to agree with it. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1419 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2008 : 05:24:26
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I could point to all the Humanoid Mercenaries in Waterdeep during the Advanced Dungeons and Dragons comics, but this isn't about canon Dungeons and Dragons. Ed Greenwood has made it explicitly clear that his realms is a wide mix and range of attitudes along with beliefs, so I don't really care what you claim for the whole of them.
except as it relates to your campaign.
This isn't a thread about canon but about how you run them in your campaign. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2008 : 05:31:01
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| I told you how I run it in my campaign. You dismissed it, so I gave you citations explaining why I do it my way and why I disagree completely with yours. I think we can argue both canon and campaigns, especially because many of us base our campaigns off of existing sources. If you want to deviate from it, I as believe you have, that's perfectly fine. But I think both aspects are worthy of debate. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1419 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2008 : 05:37:25
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My apologies, I thought you were referring to canon in your talk about the genocide and I confess that you're welcome to handle it in that matter. I do have a question whether the Dwarves and Elves who conduct the attempted destruction of Orc or whatnot villages are evil or Neutral or still members of the "good."
Sorry if you feel dismissed.
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2008 : 09:19:56
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I think to a certain degree, its hard to hold someone responsible for knowledge that is not in evidence. By this I mean, why would it be evil for people to assume orcs or goblins are all evil beasts incapable of good when they:
a) Have never seen any element of this.
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b) Live in a world where there are indeed creatures that are Evil, meaning they cannot be anything but evil.
I'm not saying that this should preclude obviously good storylines where orcs or goblins might be good. Heck, I've got a paladin in my campaign right now that thinks its her mission from Lathander to be the missionary to goblinkind, because she has found two goblins that, while not good, weren't as evil as the others the PCs ran into.
The fun part about this becomes "now your mind is open to the possibility that some are good, its time to remind you that most are evil."
I also think that in some cases, to a point, you aren't responsible for something that you could not know. If you specifically go out, avoid orc warriors and decide that the way to kill off the race is by specifically targeting the women and children, yeah, no matter what you think, that is evil.
On the other hand, if you are already in an orc lair and the females attack you because you are too close to the children, and you cut the females down because they did attack you first, its not really a quandry. Even if you don't notice that the orcs you have been fighting are a little short and thin (adolescents) that charge you will cast off hand axes and clubs, if they attack you they may not be "evil" yet, but they attacked you, probably understandably, but you killed them, probably defensibly. It falls under the sad realities catagory sometimes.
King Gareth's bounty on goblinoid ears may not expressly state this, but its pretty clear that its about killing healthy goblinoid warriors, not sneak into a warren and cut the ears off of sleeping children. If it engenders this kind of behavior, its sad, but probably not the normal state of affairs.
I guess what I'm getting at here is that, yes, the Realms is more complex and nuanced than a lot of fantasy settings, but even with that level of nuance, you still have to look at the reality from the eyes of the person "on the ground" in Faerun, and its probably a good idea not to fall into the modern trap of positing every possible eventuality to the point of inaction. One of the reasons we can do this is because life has become relatively safe for us in this era . . . even in the most civilized parts of Faerun its not quite peaceful and isolated enough to endlessly ponding if yonder orc horde is the first entirely good and neutral horde to ever form. |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2008 : 09:28:29
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Matter of factly, Thornhold was IMHO a prime example of how a paladin would work in this world. Much like Elminster in Myth Drannor or the Last Mythal series brought us an objective view on the elves. Not these treehugging flower-power people of the LotR variant, but chaps who are subject to "corrupt" feelings and powers as anyone else.
Obviously, rules on alignments in a setting always hamper decent writing (and understanding of somesuch), as authors are expected to obbey to these rules. Well, more often than not. And sadly enough, you do get a fair amount of novels who - while otherwise brilliant - go along and present stereotypes galore.
With regard to half-orcs ... given their numbers, in a martial world and time like the Realms, you would expect a fair amount of half-breeds. Yet, (and a few half-sentences could easily deal with that) there might be things which could easily explain this: orc-human "interbreeding" does not always result in half-orcs (much like the rare half-dwarves) or religious dogmas make orc warriors hesitate from acts of, well you know ... |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2008 : 09:32:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
I do have a question whether the Dwarves and Elves who conduct the attempted destruction of Orc or whatnot villages are evil or Neutral or still members of the "good."
Its interesting. I think that there are a great many elves and dwarves that desperately hate orcs, goblins, giants, etc. But despite this, I don't think that history bears out that there are many that, while they might profess the world would be better without them, have gone on crusades to literally wipe them out of Faerun.
For example, elves may build mythals that keep out orcs and goblins, and they may have rangers that patrol their lands and feather a few orcs with their arrows, but there has never been an Elven High Magic ritual such as Cleanse the Unworthy that mass eradicates orcs from a portion of Toril, even though its probably feasible that it could be done, if you had enough High Mages on board to do it.
Similarly, while dwarves will hunt down every last orc in their territory, and they may waste many lives trying to retake one of their former fortresses or cities when its fallen to orcs, and they won't retreat even when it would make sense to, because they would rather kill more orcs than make a tactically sound decision (again, an oversimplification, but a superficial kind of shorthand for dwarven behavior for our discussion here), I've not seen whole armies of Moradin's Cleansing Fire, an army of dwarves going from mountain to mountain expressly to kill off orcs and make sure they no longer exist.
Part of being "good" or at least "neutral" is that there is more to your life than just war and killing. Even mercenary cultures often spend as much time learning procedures and studying tactics as they do actually marching and killing. Dwarves want to mine an make goods, and elves want to sing songs and work magic, and both of them are quite happy to do this until one of the races they "hate" is presented to them.
So I'd say that if a community wasn't just defending themselves, but was actively engaged in hunting down and killing orcs not in their territory and not a threat to them or others, that they might be in interesting aberration, and it might be a fun roleplaying situation, but its not a typical thing to find in an elven or dwarven community.
Heck, that's part of why the Eldreth Veluuthra stand out. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1419 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2008 : 10:18:55
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Thanks KnightErrantJr for a very well reasoned and interesting series of posts;
I'm reminded of Keep on the Borderlands the adventure since, I believe at least, it was the first of the modules that ever dealt with the idea of Goblins and other races having families. While the only difference is that Kobold Cubs have half their normal hit dice, you have to wonder what goes through every player character's minds when they've taken on this mission to "clean out" the warren of evil that is the Caverns of Chaos.
The novel handled it rather well, despite my thought it was rather banal (Priests of Law and Not Heironimous or Saint Cuthbert?). The one grizzled mercenary wanted to slaughter them because he was caught up in the glories of the moment but then got sick after doing it. Then, the Priest of Law wanted to slaughter them all because they'd grow up to be servants of evil. Really, it was an interesting bit of Hate speech there that certainly isn't hate speech if you objectively say that Orcs are monsters not people.
It's like saying a volcano is malevolent because it burns.
I have no problem with objectivity in Fantasy and Sci-Fi. Daleks are evil. There's no such thing as a good Dalek because they're the personification of Nazism and Totalitarianism. They're a metaphor and if you dilute the metaphor by saying there's a Good Dalek then you miss the point because you can't be a Dalek unless you hold the beliefs of a Dalek. Worse, the dehumanizing nature of Daleks and Cybermen/Borg/etc are part of the lesson of the evils.
Likewise, the Lord of the Rings movies are about Orcs as the embodiments of war. They're cloned in Saruman's labs from what we can tell. Ironically, J.R.R. Tolkien never was quite comfortable with the idea of Orcs as an irredeemable race (even when he made them corruptions of elves) and fiddled with the idea for the entirety of his life trying to come to a satisfactory answer. In other words, the discomfort with the slaughter of Orcs goes back to the beginning.
In my campaigns, I focus on the "Usually Chaotic Evil." What does Usually Mean? I'm not sure what the Sourcebooks say but I always kept with the idea. 'If Kymil Nemsin can raise an army of evil Gold Elves then it's likewise possible that there's an army of Good Orcs spread amongst Orc Kind.' Isn't there a community of pacifist Orcs out there, somewhere in canon that worship Eldath?
For, usually evil, in my games I defined that as "More than Half are Evil, most of the rest are Evil or Chaotic Neutral. A small group are a smattering of other alignments." For me that helped define that Orc Culture is almost universally despicable and monstrous. They're Orcs who are Huns, Nazis, Mongols, and Viking Raiders depending on where you find them.
BUTTtttttt....
In one of the most populous races in Toril, you'll also find Orcs that can certainly fit into the community around them. If there's an entire Surface Elf Religion devoted to a Good Goddess of the Drow then there's a bunch of Orcs who are okay blokes somewhere.
And when Gareth posted his bounty. He was probably acting like a Player Character and Noble thinking "Orcs are always evil, it's in their blood." Unless he specificed "Kill the Orcs that are criminals though."
It was neither lawful nor good. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2008 : 10:52:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
It was neither lawful nor good.
True, but, it was neither chaotic (it was done to help tame the "wilds" of Vaasa), nor was it evil (its a bounty on an "evil" race that demonstrably preys on the people of his kingdom). So while it may not fall into the category of "exalted deeds," I honestly don't think that this is against his paladin's calling. And given that he is an Ilmatari paladin, most likely he sees fewer orcs as alleviating the suffering of his people.
On the issue of orc tribes that might be "good guys," unless there is a very strong leader that is pushing them against the grain, I doubt that you are going to find a neutral/good tribe of orcs, but I would buy that there might be tribes that worship neutral forces of nature (Grumbar, for example) or gods of war (Tempus or Garagos). So there might be a few more "neutral" tribes out there somewhere, but they would still likely be tough and not particularly diplomatic to survive.
Also, Eilistraee exists because elements of the drow pantheon fell from the Seldarine. Grummsh, as far as we have ever heard, didn't "fall." He and his fellow gods were evil, and they taught their mortal children the same. That having been said, I'd imagine in the "expanded" orc pantheon that we are never likely to see, there are probably a few more neutral aligned lesser and demigods out there as well. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1419 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2008 : 11:07:44
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I don't know, I guess it boils down to how you define justice. Let's assume there's examples of Good Orcs just like there's Drizzt Do'Urden amongst the Drow in that Orcs aren't Tieflings and they're fighting against near-demonic Parentage. Instead, it's just a matter of culture rather than instinctive urges to kill.
That would sort of be like having Gareth Dragonsbane ordering someone to bring him the ears of all the Adult Males of Zhentil Keep, you think? They worship an Evil God and they're a threat to public safety while being generally a monster that needs to be dealt with.
Now before you think I'm making a false corellary. Let's turn this around again and suggest that instead of Gareth wanting to exterminate the humans of Zhentil Keep for being the scum that they are, instead he just wants to burn down the Castle-Kingdom and scatter it so that it's no longer a threat to society.
Some might have no problem with that.
So, one tends to assume that this is an issue of there being something fundamentally wrong with Orcish Brain chemistry (though I'm disinclined to say that Drow are more redeemable than Orcs---both seem to be races that are utterly beyond the pale as a whole) if there's actually a reason for Gareth to send his kill squads after them.
It's also noteworthy that Sir Gareth also is explicitly avoiding the mass homicide of Half-Orcs (who form a substantial amount of Vaasa's population-anyway).
Honestly, I'd like to also point out that while the archetypal origin story for Half-Orcs is parentage of a decidedly less than willing variety. I tend to think that it probably doesn't account for all Half-Orc births. The Barbarians in the Forgotten Realms are pretty damn scummy people as often as not, I wouldn't think it impossible for matings to occur through intermarriage (or perhaps "interbreeding" would be a better term).
I'm looking forward to Ed's answer. I kinda hope Gareth has fallen though, mostly because then I'll have impacted the Realms in a fun way.
;-) |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Aureus
Learned Scribe
Luxembourg
125 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2008 : 11:34:11
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not so long ago I thought about a method to "convert" orcs away from evil and the answer was Lycanthropy
If you are able to find a werebear (shouldn't be impossible with some divination magic) and able to convince him to help you (again it shouldn't be to difficult with some diplomatie), you should be able to spread that special kind of infection among key members of orc tribes. Of course it takes a lot of observation and singeling out the right "samples", but doesn't make the challange the roleplay more rewarding? |
That is not the weirdest thing that happened to me |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1419 Posts |
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LordArcana
Seeker
USA
53 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2008 : 13:58:55
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Just my opinion:
Main answer: YES
How do i handle "monsters"? Monsters are in some sense just like the players. They may drive towards evil but they for the most part were born..have families...live mortal lives. Monsters do what the PC's do...they gather armor, weapons and gear and go out and adventure.
Some might say they are evil (lazy) and instead of raising their own crops and livestock they steal from others. Well who has taught them to raise livestock? Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, feed him for an eternity.
Personally i think this all boils down to Ultimate Good vs. Ultimate Evil. Is there really such a thing? Who is the judge of what really is good and evil? Who is to say the Orcs aren't doing what mother nature wants and the humans are just getting in the way?
Its ironic that i played an elf (one that got killed by stirges in another thread), anyway...Some part in the fight before his death after he had killed two "unarmed" orc females and the rest of the group is belittling him he made a comment to the rest of the party:
"Humans are just as bad as orcs. Neither of you create within harmony, all you do is destroy."
With the logic that has been in the rest of this thread and for those that think genocide against orcs is OK...the elves should have the same right to comit genocide against humans.
But hey, thats just my opinion. For the sake of derailment i'm not even going to get into whats ging on in my two current games...i would be playing some serious devil's advocate. |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2008 : 15:09:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
BUTTtttttt....
In one of the most populous races in Toril, you'll also find Orcs that can certainly fit into the community around them. If there's an entire Surface Elf Religion devoted to a Good Goddess of the Drow then ...
Where's that? (And what do you define as "region"?) |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2008 : 22:02:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Slaughter the World
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcbazH6aE2g
That video was really funny.
Overall, I'm more or less with those who advocate a minimum of soul-searching over monsters. Most orcs are evil. Hence, one of the reasons why I was annoyed at the heavy-handed implementation of the Orc Kingdom in RAS's latest novel. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1419 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2008 : 05:43:12
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How do i handle "monsters"? Monsters are in some sense just like the players. They may drive towards evil but they for the most part were born..have families...live mortal lives. Monsters do what the PC's do...they gather armor, weapons and gear and go out and adventure.
Yeah, I think it's important to seperate the varying degrees of Chaotic Evil. I'm reminded of that god Zarus from Races of Destiny where the important part to remember was that he was an entirely good, just, and helpful god....to humans. It was just everyone else that he was blindingly racist towards.
With the exception of the Gnoll God (whose a Demon Lord), I tend to think that the Humanoid Evil Gods are like that. Gruumsh isn't that different from Tempus except for the fact that he utterly despises everyone but Orcs with a burning passion.
Personally i think this all boils down to Ultimate Good vs. Ultimate Evil. Is there really such a thing? Who is the judge of what really is good and evil? Who is to say the Orcs aren't doing what mother nature wants and the humans are just getting in the way?
Yeah, my four degrees of evil are.
1:] Genuinely Unpleasant People: Mister Potter, Scrooge, Bob at the DMV whom despises all humanity.
2:] People actively promoting violence and wicked deeds: Orcs, Bandits, Pirates, Barbarian Raiding Tribesmen, Assassin's Guilds, Zhents, Evil Clerics
3:] Supernatural Evils: Illithids, Liches, Vampires, Evil Gods, Tieflings, Beholders
4:] Embodiments of Evil: Demons, Devils, Yugoloths, Far Outsiders
With the logic that has been in the rest of this thread and for those that think genocide against orcs is OK...the elves should have the same right to comit genocide against humans.
I often toyed with the idea, but never implemented it, that Humans are actually Orcs and that's why Humans have no Racial Pantheon leader. Humans simply broke away from the rest of Orc Kind and started living better.
The Elves always suspected this but, for politeness sake, never mention it.
Where's that? (And what do you define as "region"?)
Religion, not Region.
But yes, I think there's a community of Eldath worshiping Orcs in Ruins of Zhentil Keep.
Overall, I'm more or less with those who advocate a minimum of soul-searching over monsters. Most orcs are evil. Hence, one of the reasons why I was annoyed at the heavy-handed implementation of the Orc Kingdom in RAS's latest novel.
Overall, my problem with the R.A. Salvatore thing was that Civilized Orcs miss the fun of being an Orc.
It's like the Barbarian Elves of Athas.
:-p
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2008 : 16:26:00
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I don't think Gareth's bounty is at all evil.
Harsh, yes. But also necessary for his kingdom to survive.
Further, most of those goblinoids, to the best of his knowledge, were involved in attacks upon his kingdom.
But this gets me thinking on some stuff I'd thought about playing around with in regards to alignment. Having "racial alignments".
ie.
Gareth Dragonsbane
LG to humans
LG to dwarves
LG to elves
LE to goblinoids (won't break a deal but will kill them all)
LE to evil outsiders
ect ect
Really rough idea but it fits a bit more than just plain old LG. I'm sure there are better ideas that have been fleshed out online but I haven't read any recently. ;)
But anyhow, the bounty is both Lawful and Good because;
Gareth is the Lawful ruler of the region and has it in his powers to offer a bounty.
Garth is securing the region for his subjects. If the goblinoid tribes send an emissary to treat with Gareth then they might be able to come up with a better solution but without an emissary, or a central location of goblinoid power, then his hands are tied. |
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Aureus
Learned Scribe
Luxembourg
125 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2008 : 16:40:46
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| I thought paladins are not supposed to willingly deal/negociate with evil (except for converting them to good, which must still be pretty direct as an approach) or otherwise he would lose all his divine powers |
That is not the weirdest thing that happened to me |
Edited by - Aureus on 28 Jan 2008 16:43:03 |
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2008 : 16:58:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Aureus
I thought paladins are not supposed to willingly deal/negociate with evil (except for converting them to good, which must still be pretty direct as an approach) or otherwise he would lose all his divine powers
I believe that was a 2E rule. And a short sighted one at that.
Although the 3.5 Players Handbook does state that they will not willingly associate with an evil character. However, a LG Paladin in Waterdeep might just have to have dealings with a NE or LE magistrate. In such a situation the Paladin would have to respect the magistrates position and authority. They may find dealing with the magistrate to be distasteful but they won't circumnavigate the law in order to not deal with that particular magistrate (though they may do everything within the law to avoid the particular magistrate.)
Further, they will have to honor the magistrate's decision, if that decision is lawful (even if it's a loophole in the law.) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2008 : 19:15:24
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quote:
Originally posted by ShadezofDis
I don't think Gareth's bounty is at all evil.
Harsh, yes. But also necessary for his kingdom to survive.
He doesn't just want his kingdom to survive, though, he also wants it to expand. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2008 : 21:57:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
He doesn't just want his kingdom to survive, though, he also wants it to expand.
Oh yeah? Do we have any detail on his thoughts? I'm not a big novel reader and I kinda ignored the whole Damara thing (mortal taking out Orcus on the planes. .. ok. ..) so I'm not very familiar with the character.
And, from what I understand of the area, Vaasa is pretty much wild and for both the security of Damara and the overall security of humans in that area, taking Vaasa would be a great idea.
I can't imagine him wanting to move south in force, what with Impiltur there and it doesn't look like going to the east would be very worthwhile and north sorta speaks for itself.
So expanding into Vaasa doesn't really seem like a bad move for a Paladin King.
Though, if he were to move in force into Vaasa he'd have the mountains between Vaasa and Damara, which is where I assume most of the monsters come from (the mountains that is). So it might not be the best idea strategically.
Alright, I'm done blathering in ignorance. . . for now. ;) |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1419 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2008 : 22:10:35
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I'm still debating whether or not to have Gareth fall in my campaigns. The actual issue is unresolved in canon, though I'm inclined to think that given Gareth has shown up as a hero in so many books that no one necessarilly wants to do him up as a Fallen Paladin despite being ostenibly Lawful Good.
To quote Hinjo the Paladin "Atonement spells exist for a reason."
I'm inclined to, however, make the hunting of Humanoids in Vaasa explictly evil *for my campaign* however because I tend to go with a sort of Justice League mentality rather than Conan the Hyborean Age. The player characters are expected to be, at least for the most part from my player's tendencies, fairly compassionate and decent people who judge people by their actions rather than their deeds.
Part of this has to do with the fact the player characters include a Tiefling, a Half-Giant [Frost], a Half-Orc who was nearly lynched in his hometown of Shadowdale once, and a Naga. Really, it would come off as just *BAD STORYTELLING* in that campaign to have Orcs and company labelled as "They're just Evil Scum." Unlike, say, if everyone had been NORMAL and played humans/dwarves/elves.
Basically, King Gareth is attempting to conquer another Kingdom (ostenibly to bring "law and order" to it) that he has no legal claim to. He's the hereditary King of Damaria but this is just a war of expansion....which isn't necessarilly evil. However, as Jarlaxle and Artemis prove, Gareth's mandate is utterly bogus in the Kingdom of Entreri.
Frankly, there's no trial or state of war existing in Vaasa. It's Pest Control. The Goblins are just being hunted down and exterminated with Artemis and Jarlaxle not being asked whether it's an adult or child Goblin (one Ogre gets listed as a "Child Giant" wasn't it? I forget the details but it implies children also pay dividends).
I think it humanizes Gareth that he's a typical adventurer and Humanoids are vermin. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2008 : 15:06:45
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Well, one idea that popped into my head is that Gareth isn't totally in control of his actions, or, at least, he's being influenced towards more harsh and evil acts.
And who is doing this?
Why, none other than Orcus himself (well, I always use lieutenants and the like because I'm in favor of absolute evil being terribly scary *g*.)
You see, Gareth didn't actually win, it was a huge ruse run by Orcus to plant a seed of control into Gareth. Now, I wouldn't have Orcus trying to take over FR but it'd be interesting if this was a move Orcus was making to stop Eltab from gaining more power, or from moving back into the Abyss or just to keep tabs on him.
So basically, when Gareth and company confronted Orcus on the planes Orcus infected Gareth with a seed of evil and the "Genocide of the Goblins" is just one of the first steps towards Gareth's future fall and a way for Orcus to start developing a power base with which to strike Eltab, should he ever need to.
Your game could include a side plot to try and remove the taint of Orcus from Gareth. Or, perhaps, the taint is unable to be removed but Gareth could fight the taint if he knew and accepted that it was there. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2008 : 18:10:19
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quote:
Originally posted by ShadezofDis
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
He doesn't just want his kingdom to survive, though, he also wants it to expand.
Oh yeah? Do we have any detail on his thoughts?
As a matter of fact, we do. See the novel Road of the Patriarch. It confirms everything I just said.
quote:
I'm not a big novel reader and I kinda ignored the whole Damara thing (mortal taking out Orcus on the planes. .. ok. ..) so I'm not very familiar with the character.
That explains it. See above.
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"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1419 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2008 : 21:05:23
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I think no one is disputing that Goblins, Orcs, Ogres, and Giants are all things that could rise up against King Gareth and prevent him from establishing his Ideal Medieval Fantasy KingdomTM. However, my basic take on Vaasa has been that it (and Damaria to a certain extent) don't belong to human beings anyway. It's like King Gareth attempted to turn Thar into a human kingdom. Vaasa is a frozen and hideous wasteland that belongs to the humanoids that have lived there for generations.
He's got no legal claim to it and the arguments he uses for wiping them out could be used for the people of Ten Towns to wipe out Wulfgar's people. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2008 : 23:16:29
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Charles,
I think you are too demanding on what a paladin should or should not do, for two reasons:
1) you use modern-day values to base your assessment of King Gareth (remember that we take for granted that women can now vote, and that everyone has rights; it wasn't so in the middle-ages, and it's still not so in some modern-day countries)
2) you hold Forgotten Realms orcs/goblinoids on too high a pedestal; i.e., you give them too much credits. When in doubt, in my campaign, I think the following: "In Middle-Earth, would Aragorn the King of Gondor hesitate to completely eradicate orcs or goblins from his territory, or even venture out on a quest to eradicate them?" my answer is obviously no. Just think back to the LotR movies, on how foul the orcs are... I think the 3.0/3.5 Monster Manual has drawn orcs too softly... they almost look like fluffy, hairy, cuddly little pig men...   |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1419 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2008 : 23:30:53
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1. Well, gender equality is taken for granted in The Forgotten Realms. :-) But yes, actually, the issue isn't that what Gareth does is unpopular. No, Gareth is doing something that a substantial number of individuals in the Forgotten Realms thinks is entirely alright. There's plenty of LG, NG, and CG people that are ignorant enough to believe that (in my realms) that Orcs are purely evil.
It's just I'm thinking that ILMATER knows better and would clue Gareth in.
2. Orcs are mostly evil and so are most of the other races, Purple Dragon Knight. However, they're "Mostly evil" in the same way that Barbarians are mostly evil. They raid, they loot, they kill, and they steal while believing Outsiders are scum. They're however, also possessed of their neutral and good members.
It's a simple rule. For every Evil Elf in Faerun, there is a good Orc. Ditto Dwarves and Goblins.
(Drow and Duergar don't count unless we discover a race of Light Orcs) |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 29 Jan 2008 23:32:02 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2008 : 23:42:58
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Also, remember that the Forgotten Realms does not equal "the Middle Ages", although it also isn't modern day New York City, either.
As you can all probably tell, I'm not really taking sides here. As I said before, I'm not exactly a "monster rights activist", and I find the new goodly orc kingdom in the RAS novels to be rather heavy-handed and annoying. But on the other hand, there is something to what Charles is saying--that there is more to the "cleasing" of Vaasa than just simple defense. Whether or not it's a good thing to want to expand a kingdom (at the expanse of various non-human creatures) is a matter of opinion. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Slaughter your World thread (Orc Genocide)
