| Author |
 Topic  |
|
KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
 Posted - 29 Jan 2008 : 23:45:16
|
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
However, my basic take on Vaasa has been that it (and Damaria to a certain extent) don't belong to human beings anyway. It's like King Gareth attempted to turn Thar into a human kingdom. Vaasa is a frozen and hideous wasteland that belongs to the humanoids that have lived there for generations.
He's got no legal claim to it and the arguments he uses for wiping them out could be used for the people of Ten Towns to wipe out Wulfgar's people.
That assumption might make for some fine roleplaying in your campaign, but its not the actual history of the region. Vaasa and Damara were both covered by the Great Glacier for a long while, so they weren't anyones at first. Damara was settled by people from Impiltur and Thesk not long after it was uncovered.
Vaasa was noted as having human inhabitants before the Witch King's coming, but they lived in small communities as hunters and trappers. The orcs, goblins, and others that became part of Zhengyi's army were, in fact, from the Galena mountains, not from either nation.
As to Gareth's motivations, in modern times its understandable that we are dubious of someone that is admittedly expansionist, but Gareth is a paladin. While he wants his kingdom to be larger, and wants Vaasa to be part of his "Kingdom of Bloodstone," its not much of a stretch to see that he might think that this larger kingdom would be better for those still living in Vaasa, as well as providing a bulwark against incursion into Damara to make it more stable. And yes, even a paladin might have some degree of pride in thinking that he might leave Damara "greater" than when he inherited it, and be remembered thusly for it. Its a temptation, but not an automatic downfall.
Plus, there is still the factor of remnants of the Assassin's Guild and the fallen clerics of Orcus running around threatening to organize these forces into a fighting force again. And (Spoiler for the Year of Rogue Dragons):
When Sammaster convinced the tribes that he was Zhengyi returned, they formed a pretty potent thread rather quickly, despite years of culling due to Gareth's policies.
Azoun wasn't a paladin, but he was lawful good. Should his alignment have changed because he wanted to expand into Sembia and the Dalelands? Part of this was because he wanted Cormyr more secure, but part of this is the natural, royal tendency to assume that Cormyr must know best, and its better to have control over a land than to have them as a neutral party or an unpredictable ally. But, given that he was lawful good, he never sent Purple Dragons and War Wizards to raze Mistledale or Saerb.
As for "legal claim," the humanoids that still dwell in Vassa came down from the mountains to attack his land, don't have a single government, and never signed any kind of treaty upon the end of the war. They raided and killed his people, and helped clerics of Orcus gather the bodies and raise them as undead. I'd say that's a better claim to being hostile toward them than the people of Ten Towns would have against the barbarian tribes.
|
 |
|
|
Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1419 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2008 : 23:57:58
|
Touche, I considered the mountains part of Vaasa and was wrong there. Thanks for correcting me. I don't change Realms history except for what happens in "gametime."
My main point isn't that Gareth shouldn't be expansionist actually. The man has no legal claim towards Vaasa, which means that he has no rightful reason to be angry with Artemis and Jarlaxle for squatting (unlike what his followers seem to think. They're utterly foolish).
If Gareth annexed Vaasa by setting up his own towns, defeating the evil forces, and subjugating them. That's questionable but still LG.
My main issue is merely the hints of genocide there. Even if the Orcs and so on are Evil, that doesn't mean that killing them out of hand is permissable. Also, one would think Gareth would want to see them converted to the worship of Ilmater instead of annihilated. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
|
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2008 : 00:00:07
|
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
It's just I'm thinking that ILMATER knows better and would clue Gareth in.
Ilmater also know that the goblin deities are evil, and thus his enemies. And he knows that goblins cause a lot of suffering for otherwise innocent people.
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
2. Orcs are mostly evil and so are most of the other races, Purple Dragon Knight. However, they're "Mostly evil" in the same way that Barbarians are mostly evil. They raid, they loot, they kill, and they steal while believing Outsiders are scum. They're however, also possessed of their neutral and good members.
Yeah -- maybe one in one hundred thousand, if that many. Their society is a brutal one, and anyone exhibiting such "weak" tendencies would likely be killed at a very early age.
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
It's a simple rule. For every Evil Elf in Faerun, there is a good Orc. Ditto Dwarves and Goblins.
I think you grossly overestimate that number. In canon, we have several -- maybe not a lot, but at least several -- examples of evil elves or dwarves. How many examples of good orcs or goblins do we have?
Besides, if there are any good adult goblins or orcs in that area, why are they hanging out in a tribe of evil guys?
All the evidence available to Gareth is that all orcs and goblins are evil. So long as nothing contradicts that, he's in the clear. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2008 : 00:04:04
|
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
My main issue is merely the hints of genocide there. Even if the Orcs and so on are Evil, that doesn't mean that killing them out of hand is permissable. Also, one would think Gareth would want to see them converted to the worship of Ilmater instead of annihilated.
It's not genocide, since there's hundreds of thousands of orcs and gobbies elsewhere. And he's not killing them out of hand -- he's killing them to defend his people and make the land safe for good and innocent folk. And even if Gareth was naïve enough to think he could convert large numbers of evil critters, where is he going to find the time, space, and manpower to do this? How is he going to convert someone, anyway, when he offers them something they have been raised to believe is weak and undesirable? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2008 : 00:05:41
|
Wooly makes a good point on the "balance" between evil members of "goodly" races and vice versa. An elf that is wrathful, aggressive, hateful, and potentially evil will probably be helped as much as possible, and at worst, might end up an exile (either self imposed or otherwise). Most elves won't want to really believe he is evil, even if he is.
On the other hand, the first time an orc shows mercy to someone he should be killing, or a goblin doesn't slit the throat of someone that fails to notice him sneaking up on him, they probably aren't going to be given a second chance at "compromising the tribe" with their weak ways. So even if there are comparable numbers, there aren't comparable lifespans . . . |
|
|
|
Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1419 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2008 : 01:12:18
|
Wooly Rupert
Ilmater also know that the goblin deities are evil, and thus his enemies. And he knows that goblins cause a lot of suffering for otherwise innocent people.
Yes, but he's a very Merciful God and (I think) also believes that wiping out the Goblin races would probably be wrong. Ilmater would prefer to see them brought to the Light of Goodness instead.
Yeah -- maybe one in one hundred thousand, if that many. Their society is a brutal one, and anyone exhibiting such "weak" tendencies would likely be killed at a very early age.
Oh, I actually agree with you Wooly. Though I tend to think that Chaotic Neutrals and possibly even Neutrals would be able to get along in Orcish Society without much difficulty. Certainly, the majority of the Orc tribes are probably a great deal like the Drow in that they savagely cull out the decent amongst them.
However, just like Eli has her followers, there's Orcs that canonically worship Eldath in the Realm and are Lawful Good (see Ruins of Zhentil Keep). The Orcs have just enough good in them that there's hope for the race yet.
I think you grossly overestimate that number. In canon, we have several -- maybe not a lot, but at least several -- examples of evil elves or dwarves. How many examples of good orcs or goblins do we have?
Bob Salvatore has made a whole kingdom of them plus the Odonti.
http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/monsters.html
Plus, there's also that group of Orcish Farmers in Agarlarond isn't there?
Besides, if there are any good adult goblins or orcs in that area, why are they hanging out in a tribe of evil guys?
Actually, thanks to Kymil Nemsin, we have ridiculously huge numbers of Evil Elves and that doesn't include the Glorious Blade of the People.
All the evidence available to Gareth is that all orcs and goblins are evil. So long as nothing contradicts that, he's in the clear.
I'm just noting that the idea of Gareth allowing Drow to wander about with no bounties on their heads (Jarlaxle) and not Orcs is bizarre to say the least. Also, there's a City of Half-Orcs in Vaasa.
A City. If he knows about Half-Orcs not being evil, why assume all Orcs are?
It's not genocide, since there's hundreds of thousands of orcs and gobbies elsewhere. And he's not killing them out of hand -- he's killing them to defend his people and make the land safe for good and innocent folk. And even if Gareth was naïve enough to think he could convert large numbers of evil critters, where is he going to find the time, space, and manpower to do this? How is he going to convert someone, anyway, when he offers them something they have been raised to believe is weak and undesirable?
Forgive me, a regional campaign of extermination then.
I'm basically just saying that there's a difference between Lord of the Rings Orcs and Forgotten Realms Orcs. Lord of the Rings Orcs are totally without any good within them and might as well be a form of undead with Always CE alignment. Normal Orcs, however, have the same vulnerability to good and evil as other species.
I'm not saying that Gareth isn't perfectly justified in slaughtering any orc tribes that attacks him but Pre-emptive slaughter based on race just seems un-Paladinlike.
Knight Errant Junior
Wooly makes a good point on the "balance" between evil members of "goodly" races and vice versa. An elf that is wrathful, aggressive, hateful, and potentially evil will probably be helped as much as possible, and at worst, might end up an exile (either self imposed or otherwise). Most elves won't want to really believe he is evil, even if he is.
On the other hand, the first time an orc shows mercy to someone he should be killing, or a goblin doesn't slit the throat of someone that fails to notice him sneaking up on him, they probably aren't going to be given a second chance at "compromising the tribe" with their weak ways. So even if there are comparable numbers, there aren't comparable lifespans . . .
I'm not arguing most Orcs are scum. However, I don't think they're Undead or Demons either. An Orc is less drawn to evil, IMHO, than Tieflings whom have the literal blood of evil running through their veins [I refuse to even acknowledge the silliness that they're not the product of crossbreeding with Hellspawn]. It's their culture that's the nasty side of it.
If Gareth, however, chooses to massacre Orc cubs because it's easier than raising them then he's not only Fallen...he's going straight to Kelemvor's Pits of Torment.
Believe me, I'm not one of those guys who thinks most Orcs are CN or noble savages. I'm just pointing out in the Realms the "Good" thing is to look before you attack. Blame R.A. Salvatore's Drizzt series for that.
I take it that you guys strictly divide your Realms ala Lord of the Rings? That Humanoids are absolutely not welcome in cities? |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
|
Edited by - Charles Phipps on 30 Jan 2008 01:15:56 |
|
|
|
KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2008 : 02:21:18
|
Using the Odonti to prove the relative likelihood of orcs being good is like saying drow are predictive of a predilection toward evil in the elven race. The Odonti are a specific, separate culture of orcs. For this to be relevant to this discussion, the odonti would have to spontaneously show up in various "normal" orc tribes.
I'm not arguing that orcs are born evil either, but as Wooly and I have pointed out, its not like their culture is going to allow many "soft" members to survive.
Also, I actually agree, if the bounty expressly stated that orc children or goblin whelps counted for part of the bounty, that would make your point. On the other hand, I think its implied in this bounty that the bounty hunters are killing dangerous members of said races. I believe if large numbers of adventurers started showing up with tiny orc children ears expecting bounties, Gareth would likely rapidly rethink this policy.
Some places in the Realms accept orcs and goblins, others don't. Drow are pretty much universally hated and feared because they could be a precursor to an invasion or magically powerful, but orcs and goblins could easily be ignored (if not well treated) in a city because, for the most part, they don't pose much of a threat by themselves, in most people's minds.
I believe Ed has answered the question of humanoid races in "civilized" cities. One of the determining factors is how safe the people are, how much of a threat is perceived, and what the local history is. In my Featherdale campaign, goblins raid farms all the time, so goblins aren't accepted in any towns, in part because of history, in part because no where in Featherdale is well defended against a sizable force of anything.
The orc farmers in Thesk were General Vrak's troops from Zhentil Keep that served in the Crusade against the Tuigan under Azoun. These were orcs that were raised to serve as Zhentil Keep soldiers (though I don't think they were official Zhentillar), trained to respect military authority and take orders, and further were impressed with Azoun IV and even the other races of troops serving with them. They weren't a random tribe of orcs that settled down, nor were they "standard" orcs even when the Zhents sent them to serve under Azoun.
Oh, for the record, since most people around here can figure it out from the Compendium articles, the JR stands for my initials, Jared Rascher . . .  |
|
|
|
Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1419 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2008 : 03:27:18
|
Also, I actually agree, if the bounty expressly stated that orc children or goblin whelps counted for part of the bounty, that would make your point. On the other hand, I think its implied in this bounty that the bounty hunters are killing dangerous members of said races. I believe if large numbers of adventurers started showing up with tiny orc children ears expecting bounties, Gareth would likely rapidly rethink this policy.
While it's controversial to have "I go kill any adult males of a race" to begin with. I point out that the novel in question had them paying 'Half Price' for a Child's Giant's ears (it was an ogre but they implied there was a price for Children Giants).
But there's no reason to believe Gareth didn't necessarilly just order "Bring me bounties for killing Goblin Raiders!" and Bloodstone's Rangers simply corrupted the concept.
The orc farmers in Thesk were General Vrak's troops from Zhentil Keep that served in the Crusade against the Tuigan under Azoun. These were orcs that were raised to serve as Zhentil Keep soldiers (though I don't think they were official Zhentillar), trained to respect military authority and take orders, and further were impressed with Azoun IV and even the other races of troops serving with them. They weren't a random tribe of orcs that settled down, nor were they "standard" orcs even when the Zhents sent them to serve under Azoun.
Actually, I was pointing to the Odonti as an Example of Eli-like like solutions for the Orc people. No one says that Gareth has to go into their villages and try to convert them to the ways of Lawful Goodness.
I was just making a point that, in the Realms, Orcs don't have to be just stupid arrow fodder.
Though some people prefer them that way. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
|
|
|
|
KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2008 : 03:37:27
|
I don't remember the passage in particular, so I'll have to say I'm still a little leery of the fact that Gareth has specific bounties on non mature members of a species. I'm pretty sure that a ranger from that region would know a "small giant", i.e. an ogre, from a full sized hill or frost giant, but perhaps the passage proves me wrong.
I think its a bit of a leap to assume that because most people in the Realms, in my campaigns, don't agonize over killing a full grown armed orc, that that means that orcs are "stupid arrow fodder." There is a lot of room between those extremes. |
|
|
|
Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1419 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2008 : 04:02:20
|
I don't remember the passage in particular, so I'll have to say I'm still a little leery of the fact that Gareth has specific bounties on non mature members of a species. I'm pretty sure that a ranger from that region would know a "small giant", i.e. an ogre, from a full sized hill or frost giant, but perhaps the passage proves me wrong.
Actually, the argument was actually whether the person in question should be paid for an Ogre Bounty or a Giant Bounty, which the person in question (I guess the term would be paymaster?) gave a Child Giant's Bounty for it....which was implied to still be higher than an adult Ogre.
If I had my copy of the book handy, I'd check it.
But yes, it seems out of character for Gareth.
I think its a bit of a leap to assume that because most people in the Realms, in my campaigns, don't agonize over killing a full grown armed orc, that that means that orcs are "stupid arrow fodder." There is a lot of room between those extremes.
They don't in my campaigns and in my games, for the most part, they ARE stupid Arrow Fodder.
I don't give Orcs a stone age culture in my games, I stick with their existingly described games and more or less have them live like parasites off stolen materials (which is even worse in some ways). Orcs ARE cannibals for the most part and the only time they tend not to be devouring prisoners is when they're making them slaves. They're vicious, warlike, lazy, and dumb with the exception of the Chiefs along with the Shaman.
Most orcs would never work a day in their life if they didn't have to kill for it.
Orcs in my games are the least likely of the Goblinoid races, with the exception of Demon worshiping Gnolls, to turn out a half-way decent culture (the exception being Thar and that's only because the Zhents have probably conquered it by now). Goblins, especially Hobgoblins, are much more likely to suceed. Bugbears too.
In the Dales, Orcs are pretty much killed on sight due to the massive amount of rape and pillage they've suffered over the years along with Zhentish horrors. Most orcs are assumed to be raiders or people that have gotten lost from the mountains where they're considered little better than animals (and usually put down by the Purple dragons)
The others aren't treated much better.
It's ironic that, in my games, the only places in the whole of the Forgotten Realms where Orcs and their kind are actually allowed to walk the streets freely [Silverymoon is not an exception] are the following...
1. Calisham
2. Waterdeep
3. Sembia
4. Neverwinter
5. Baldur's Gate
6. Luskan
7. Westgate
8. Thay (where you're assumed to be someone's slaves)
9. Zhentil Keep (where Orcs have lived amongst the humans as their slavemasters for the Zhents for years)
Some tribes and towns have more peaceful relations with the folk, especially those who somehow manage to establish some value to the Orcs that "trade" probably amounts more to extortion. Even Silverymoon the Heart of Cultural Love and Joy has Orcs or Humanoids standing out as majorly weird sights. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
|
Edited by - Charles Phipps on 30 Jan 2008 04:05:04 |
|
|
|
gomez
Learned Scribe
Netherlands
254 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2008 : 10:28:00
|
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
It's a simple rule. For every Evil Elf in Faerun, there is a good Orc. Ditto Dwarves and Goblins.
There were, and likely are, quite a lot of evil elves in the realms - and no, I don't mean drow.
The Crown Wars are the proof on how 'good' the elves were. There have not been wholesale slaughter worse than those wars ever since.
And 'good' dwarves... just look at the Spawn Wars.
There is a lot of gray in the Realms - and it goes both ways.
Some people do not like to think about it, and wish to just enter the dungeon and chop things to bits. Personally, I feel that is a bit bland. While an enemy orc is an enemy, it feels much better for me if I can still think of my opponent as a person, rather than my next batch of xp. There needs to be the hope that your opponent could be good, even though you do not expect it.
|
|
|
|
ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2008 : 16:13:18
|
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
As a matter of fact, we do. See the novel Road of the Patriarch. It confirms everything I just said.
Ah, I have read that bad boy and I didn't really see a heavy expansionist mindset. Perhaps the desire but I don't remember there being a general muster and the acquisition of supplies. Of course that doesn't mean much and it's been quite a while since I've read it. ;)
But, moving on, I don't see how Ilmater would have a problem with the bounty. The humanoids in the mountains have already shown the ability and willingness to inflict harm upon Damarans and Gareth is taking steps to stop that. That's what followers of Ilmater do.
As for the Giant child bounty, a Giants child is about the size of an Ogre, more than capable of taking on a guard patrol even (well a lightly armed one).
I also have to agree that, while Orcs aren't evil from birth, their society and influences produce brutal, harsh creatures who are more violent than not. Reared on blood and warfare and if they aren't strong and quick to kill they're likely little better than slaves if they aren't killed outright.
As for converting them. . . well. . . how? Have a missionary go into the mountains to preach? Have an army go capture a bunch of orcs and then forcibly indoctrinate them? Have an army go into the mountains, capture orc villages and indoctrinate them?
Honestly man, what would you have him do? They're a real a credible threat to his people and the mountain range isn't very defensible. |
|
|
|
Apex
Learned Scribe
USA
229 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2008 : 18:15:55
|
| Is this new? I seem to recall there being a bounty on evil humanoids from the original 1st edition Bloodstone Lands book, which would imply that Gareth is simply continuing an age old practice. |
|
|
|
KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2008 : 00:01:47
|
Well, it was mentioned in FR9 Bloodstone Lands, which had a 2nd edition banner on it, but was an "early" 2nd edition products, and a lot of the content seemed to refer to 1st edition rules. But yeah, the bounty has been around for a while. I just looked at those pages the other day to make sure I remember the passage right.
For what its worth, Gareth is definitely still a paladin, at least pre Spellplague (I'm sure it can randomly change or erase alignments), since in The Rite the vampire drake Brimstone could feel the emanations of holiness and goodness coming off of the paladin. |
|
|
|
Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1419 Posts |
|
|
Ardashir
Senior Scribe
USA
544 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2008 : 17:29:11
|
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
The best thing to do for a Lich or other evil overlord is keep a Helm of Opposite Alignment handy.
No offense, but to me making unasked and unwanted changes in another being's very soul and mind would be worse than just giving them a quick death. What's next, someone else isn't acting 'good enough' so we use the Instant Mindwhammy on them too?
Let me add, this is also my problem with that whole Sanctify the Wicked spell from Book of Exalted Deeds. I justify it to myself by saying that the imprisoned villain/monsters is given a choice to change their alignment, not magically forced to do so. |
|
|
|
Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2008 : 18:13:29
|
It's not genocide, since there's hundreds of thousands of orcs and gobbies elsewhere. And he's not killing them out of hand -- he's killing them to defend his people and make the land safe for good and innocent folk. And even if Gareth was naïve enough to think he could convert large numbers of evil critters, where is he going to find the time, space, and manpower to do this? How is he going to convert someone, anyway, when he offers them something they have been raised to believe is weak and undesirable?
Just because a situation is unlikely to change does not excuse a paladin from trying to do the right thing before doing the inevitable thing. Sending mercenaries out to exterminate with extreme prejudice large numbers of sentient beings for the sake of making the realm safer for expansion of his own people seems like an evil act to me.
As for how I treat "monsters" in my campaign, a monster by the typical Realms-dweller is anything that doesn't conform to local society. Most people can be excused --regardless of alignment-- for making harsh assumptions and hasty decisions that result in deaths. A dragon is a monster, regardless of its color because its a freakin' dragon. Orcs are orcs and what are orcs known for? What about unicorns? Monsters... usually regarded as friendly, but still monsters.
However, those of a religious bent that are supposed to be enlightened (holding a good and/or lawful perspective) should put more thought into their actions than the typical person. A paladin should by the righteous and noble warrior who willingly faces down any threat (evil or good) in order to protect innocents... but sending others out to do the dirty work and personally facing down the threat of orcs dwelling in their own lands who may prove a threat to those under your watchful eye aren't really the same thing.
Now, from a DM perspective, I consider the term "monster" to apply to a wide range of critters from basic unintelligent beings that are threats to intelligent sentients that willfully do harm to others for their own personal gain or amusement (or both). So, a wild dog is a monster as is a werewolf... a bloodthirsty orc is a monster, but so is your typical zhent commander and pretty much most clerics of evil gods (though exceptions can exist). Evil dragons are monsters, good dragons are not. Evil human barbarians are monsters, pacifist orcs are not. And so on.
I typically hold anyone to the religious convictions of their character. Thus, a paladin of Illmater cleansing an area of orcs as a means of protecting people would likely need to attone for his actions. Now, if the orcs were actively attacking and/or have been making recent raids that threaten the human settlement, I could see a military action set forth as a legitimate protective measure... but wiping the orcs out as a pre-emptive strike is not. |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2008 : 18:15:48
|
quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
The best thing to do for a Lich or other evil overlord is keep a Helm of Opposite Alignment handy.
No offense, but to me making unasked and unwanted changes in another being's very soul and mind would be worse than just giving them a quick death. What's next, someone else isn't acting 'good enough' so we use the Instant Mindwhammy on them too?
Let me add, this is also my problem with that whole Sanctify the Wicked spell from Book of Exalted Deeds. I justify it to myself by saying that the imprisoned villain/monsters is given a choice to change their alignment, not magically forced to do so.
Two things:
1) Yeah, forcing an alignment change seems morally questionable to me, too.
2) "Mindwhammy" is an awesome word!  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2008 : 19:12:17
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
2) "Mindwhammy" is an awesome word!
Its much better than "brainwash" any day of the week.  |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
|
|
|
Ardashir
Senior Scribe
USA
544 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2008 : 23:32:34
|
quote:
Originally posted by Nerfed2Hell
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
2) "Mindwhammy" is an awesome word!
Its much better than "brainwash" any day of the week.
Even if they're the same thing.
But still, I can't help but to wonder what happens to Mister "I'm brainwashing them for their own good!" when someone nails his 'projects' with Break Enchantment or some other bit of magic that un-whammies them.
For that matter (though this is a bit deep for your average RPG session), depending on just why this person/creature became evil, those problems might still be around. And if someone became evil once, there's nothing stopping it from reoccuring... |
|
|
|
Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 01:27:34
|
I think the idea that goes through the minds of people who "brainwash them for their own good" is something along the lines of "If they can be made to see the light, they shouldn't want to go back even if exposed to whatever influence made them evil to begin with since the goodness in their hearts (brain) should override that evil."
That's not to say I agree with or in any way to subscribe to that kind of mentality... just trying to explain why someone who brainwashes others for their own good might do what they do. |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 06:25:33
|
quote:
Originally posted by Nerfed2Hell
I think the idea that goes through the minds of people who "brainwash them for their own good" is something along the lines of "If they can be made to see the light, they shouldn't want to go back even if exposed to whatever influence made them evil to begin with since the goodness in their hearts (brain) should override that evil."
That's not to say I agree with or in any way to subscribe to that kind of mentality... just trying to explain why someone who brainwashes others for their own good might do what they do.
I can see that viewpoint, and how someone might think that way. It's just not the way I think.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Stout Heart
Learned Scribe
USA
118 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 06:29:45
|
| this topic is a moot point Genocide doesn't count when it comes to goblin kin and half orcs count as apart of that group. |
|
|
|
Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 08:25:47
|
Goblins, orcs, and various other "monster" races live in harmony under a single culture in Zhakara. Evil or not, outright slaughter of the natives of an area to make you and your people feel safe because you don't share the same beliefs with them just seems wrong for someone who is supposed to be a paragon of virtue (paladins).
If the zhentarim decided to hire mercenaries to go out and slay the people of the Dalelands so they can feel safe and unthreatened by the Dales' defenders who would thwart the Zhentarim's plans... well, no one would have any question that this was an evil action. |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
Edited by - Nerfed2Hell on 03 Oct 2008 08:27:14 |
|
|
|
Laura40
Acolyte
1 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2016 : 13:49:19
|
Hey, everybody!
If you suppose history is not worth studying, you're mistaken as we can build a successful future if we manage not to allow the past mistakes happen again, follow this source to read more on this issue
Mod Edit:- I've temporarily removed the link, pending review, as it prompted some rather questionable content on my end.
|
Edited by - The Sage on 29 Sep 2016 13:57:20 |
|
|
|
Misereor
Learned Scribe
164 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2016 : 11:07:36
|
Well, Orcus is the Demon Prince of undeath, so a little thread necromancy is to be expected...
|
What is dead may never die, but rises again, harder, stronger, in a later edition. |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
|
|
George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6648 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2016 : 21:52:45
|
Have the orcs conquered the world yet?
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
|
|
|
Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2016 : 06:30:46
|
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Well they havent done an adventure where the orc gods try to destroy the sword coast. . . . yet.
I bet there'd be four factions involved in that... even if there was no logical reason for them to be involved. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Slaughter your World thread (Orc Genocide)
