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 Casting 10th Level Spells Post Karsus's Folly
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Slaygrim
Learned Scribe

111 Posts

Posted - 17 Jan 2008 :  03:44:50  Show Profile  Visit Slaygrim's Homepage Send Slaygrim a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Hello all. I've been researching this for awhile now and it appears this is a dead end. When Mystryl sacrificed Herself to regain control of the Weave, She reincarnated as Mystra. This is hardly groundbreaking information, nor is the fact that her first action was to remove the ability for Realmsfolk to cast spells beyond 9th Level.

We know that Epic Spells are possible, yet these aren't the same thing as casting a 10th, 11th, or even a 12th Level Spell such as Karsus's Avatar.

The answer I am looking for is regarding just how true is it that Mystra no longer allows spells beyond 9th Level. I have heard that the Shadow King Larloch is granted special "exceptions" and is allowed to work Art that is beyond 9th Level. If this is true, then it appears that the ability to cast spells beyond 9th does exist under certain circumstances.

I wonder if there is a way to either gain such permission or if there is a back door to accessing such magic. Or perhaps can the Shadow Weave grant access to such spells since it is controlled by Shar and not Mystra? What about an ancient and lost artifact, perhaps from the Creator Races such as the Sarrukh, that would aid a powerful caster in being able to step outside normal restrictions?

If anyone has anything they can add, I would appreciate it very much.

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Edited by - Slaygrim on 17 Jan 2008 03:45:33

SirUrza
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Posted - 17 Jan 2008 :  03:58:32  Show Profile Send SirUrza a Private Message  Reply with Quote
No same limit. There's always been the "hinting" that there were scrolls lost in time that would allow casters to wield greater power for a specific effect, but nope, Mystra's will pretty much pimp slap anyone that tries.

Also, something that annoyed me, particularly about the magic change in 4E, "level 9" is a game mechanic term, not a game world term. Whether the game system caps at 9 or caps at 30, a cap is a cap and can and should be applied the same.

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Kentinal
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Posted - 17 Jan 2008 :  05:02:28  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As already note, game rules are for the player, the PC does not know what level they are, then just know they learned more able to do more things, they do not know their hit points they feel weaker when hurt and so on. The PC actually knows things that the player does not know (game mechanics allow the player to have PC achieve something the player can not do).

As to Breaking 9th level/more powerful magics alas Epic magic did this. What was, IIRC, a 12th level spell became Epic magic and Mystra did nothing about weilding such high powered magic.

Oh there was one reply that Ed made that Shar did not impose the 9th level limit which until changed in print means it certainly is posible for a skilled PC to cast 10th or higher level spells if using the Shadow Weave and Shar allows them to cast the spell.

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KnightErrantJR
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Posted - 17 Jan 2008 :  07:51:56  Show Profile  Visit KnightErrantJR's Homepage Send KnightErrantJR a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Actually, a good "in world" explanation was included in Shadowbred, if I recall correctly, where Rivalen Tanthul points out that its not impossible to do the same things that could be done during the time of Netheril, but that Mystra made it more difficult to achieve the same effects, and thus they take more time and effort to call the same effects than they once did.

Essentially, since Epic spells take time to be individually researched, often take longer to cast, and sometimes require multiple casters, these are "fail safes" to make sure that a spell isn't created that has unforeseen ramifications that can consequently be cast within a few seconds, thus causing untold damage before anyone can stop or mitigate the effects.
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Mazrim_Taim
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341 Posts

Posted - 17 Jan 2008 :  10:01:35  Show Profile  Visit Mazrim_Taim's Homepage Send Mazrim_Taim a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In game terms I believe KEJR has the right of it. There are many limiting factors in casting Epic Spells now, making them different than what the Netherese had in their time. And like what Kentintal and SirUzra said, the whole idea of an "X level" spell is a game mechanic term that your mage does not know. When he is able to caster a higher level spell it is through time and research.




And if the PCs DO win their ways through all the liches to Larloch, “he” will almost certainly be just another lich (loaded with explosive spells) set up as a decoy, with dozens of hidden liches waiting to pounce on any surviving PCs who ‘celebrate’ after they take Larloch down. As the REAL Larloch watches (magical scrying) from afar. Myself, as DM, I’d be wondering: “Such a glorious game, so many opportunities laid out before your PCs to devote your time to, and THIS fixation is the best you can come up with? Are you SURE you’re adventurers?” -Ed Greenwood

Edited by - Mazrim_Taim on 17 Jan 2008 10:03:45
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Slaygrim
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111 Posts

Posted - 17 Jan 2008 :  16:37:12  Show Profile  Visit Slaygrim's Homepage Send Slaygrim a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks for the replies. So I will assume that Larloch does not gain special privledges that allow him to work non-epic spells beyond 9th Level. However, it may be possible to access said spells through the Shadow Weave as Shar imposed no such limit.

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Mazrim_Taim
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341 Posts

Posted - 17 Jan 2008 :  16:47:31  Show Profile  Visit Mazrim_Taim's Homepage Send Mazrim_Taim a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Larloch does get some special privileges from Mystra, in exchange for him sharing some of his discoveries with the rest of Faerun. I can't recall it ever saying that this allowed him to cast the traditional 10th level spells though. He has researched the Nether Scrolls heavily, however, and his mastery of metamagic is rivaled only by some gods.

And if the PCs DO win their ways through all the liches to Larloch, “he” will almost certainly be just another lich (loaded with explosive spells) set up as a decoy, with dozens of hidden liches waiting to pounce on any surviving PCs who ‘celebrate’ after they take Larloch down. As the REAL Larloch watches (magical scrying) from afar. Myself, as DM, I’d be wondering: “Such a glorious game, so many opportunities laid out before your PCs to devote your time to, and THIS fixation is the best you can come up with? Are you SURE you’re adventurers?” -Ed Greenwood
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Caedwyr
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87 Posts

Posted - 17 Jan 2008 :  18:39:17  Show Profile  Visit Caedwyr's Homepage Send Caedwyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I may be missing some additional source, but didn't Mystra just restrict the casting of spells greater than 10th level, not 9th? In Netheril - Empire of Magic on page 12, it states

quote:
When Mystrl reincarnated herself -- this time as Mystra -- she used the form of a beautiful peasant girl learning the basics of cantra magic but with the capacities for archwizadry. Her first piority was to recreate the weave of magic. This time she made magic follow a few more rules, and no spell above 10th level would function.


On Page 116 in the section "After the Fall" the second sentence on Spellcasting states

quote:
First, Mystra (Mystrl's replacement) changes the Weave banning arcanists from accessing 11th and 12th level magic



There are also a few references to 10th level spells, although it does state that these spells are now direct pleas to the deity of magic and not a traditional spells.

In The Fall of Myth Drannor the following 10th level spells are listed:

Moryggan's Mythaleash
The Srinshee's Spellshift

I guess where I'm confused is where I can find an explicit alteration to the lines in Netheril - Empire of Magic that seem to indicate the spell limit is 9th max instead of 10th max.
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Slaygrim
Learned Scribe

111 Posts

Posted - 17 Jan 2008 :  18:59:49  Show Profile  Visit Slaygrim's Homepage Send Slaygrim a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Very interesting discovery Caedwyr. Have new rules and guidelines been redrawn, or are 10th level spells still possible? Or are those 10th level spells now considered "Epic Spells"?

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Kentinal
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Posted - 17 Jan 2008 :  20:41:03  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Slaygrim

Very interesting discovery Caedwyr. Have new rules and guidelines been redrawn, or are 10th level spells still possible? Or are those 10th level spells now considered "Epic Spells"?



Well the 3.X core rules restricted to 9th and much has been said that Epic spells are not higher then 9th. So I would say 10th is not possible for Weave users at all and Epic is not higher then 9th level.

WotC has had a continunity issue for some years now, with sometimes contridictions occurring in the same source book.

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 17 Jan 2008 :  23:09:00  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
But the thing is, some of the former 10th and 11th level spells, such as Proctiv's Move Mountain, were done as epic spells...

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Caedwyr
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87 Posts

Posted - 18 Jan 2008 :  00:47:49  Show Profile  Visit Caedwyr's Homepage Send Caedwyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmm, taking a look at Cormanthyr - Empire of the Elves, it explicitly says that Mystra restricted spells to a maximum of 9th level. As this book came out in 1998 compared to 1996 for Nethril - Empire of Magic, it appears to be a retcon of the earlier published material.

Incidently a favourite spell of mine is from the Fall of Myth Drannor box set.

quote:
The Srinshee's Spellshift
(Abjuration, Alteration, Divination)
Level: 10
Range: 100 yards + 10 yards/level
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 round
Duration: 1 round/level
Area of Effect: Special
Saving Throw: None

At the least, this spell cloaks the caster (or a target creature) in an immobile, faintly shimmering magical 10'-radius sphere. This sphere prevents all spells from entering its boundaries to affect those within, though spells can be cast from inside with no effects on the sphere or cast spells. If the spell is focused on its caster, the spellshift's full capabilities are discovered, as the caster now views the Weave in all its glory, using the sphere as the lens through which it is viewed. With this sight and the magic active to a wide range, the caster can reach out and manipulate the Weave for various effects on active spells.

With the expansion of senses through the spellshift, the caster can visualize an opponent's forming spells and targeted area of effect by observing the manipulations in the Weave around them. The caster can now manipulate the Weave a bit to either focus or blur it around one target per round, causing wild and dead magic zones. If the spellshift - protected caster has initiative, he can forfeit his normal spellcasting or other actions to reach out and affect an opponent's forming spell (or a pre-existing spell), changing its effects without the knowledge of its caster. The rules for and primary effects of such maneuvers are below:

- Aid: Any spell forming or existing within range can be boosted for a round, increasing its range, damage, or area of effect by double its normal effects. Thus, a comrade's fireball could be spellshifted to explode with a 40'-radius or its damage could be boosted to double the caster's level in six-sided dice! This effect can be used only on wizards' spells, so it cannot double the amount of healing gained from a priest's cure light wounds spell.

- Cancel: The spellshifted wizard can snuff one forming spell within the Weave before it is fully formed, so none of its effects ever manifest. The casting wizard of the cancelled spell, unless aware of the actions of the spellshifted character, would merely believe that the spell failed or was improperly cast.

- Deaden: The spellshifted caster can place a 5'-radius globe of dead magic around one target creature or areas within range for the remainder of the current round. All magic and all magical items within that area are canceled. This allows characters a way to pierce magical fields or penetrate the defenses of a previously invulnerable foe.

- Manipulate: The spellshifted wizard can reach out using this new spellsight to reshape a concurrently forming spell, changing either its range or area of effect. In other words, someone using spellsight can take the time to manipulate the targeting of another's mage's fireball and have it explode atop its own caster with normal areas of effect. The spellshifting mage cannot move the spell effects beyond the range of the spell as cast by the opposing mage. Alternatively, he could allow it to travel to the caster's intended target but minimize its area of effect by up to 75% (reducing a normal 40'-radius fireball's explosion to a 5'-radius explosion at the target).

- Wild: The spellshifted wizard can focus and tighten the Weave in a 10'-radius globe around a target creature or area to create a wild-magic zone. All magic cast within that target area must check against wild-magic surges to ensure that it is cast without complications. If wild-magic rules are unavailable, the simplest effect is to have the caster within the wild magic target zone take shock damage (shock from agitated magic during the casting) equal in hit points to twice the level of the cast spell. Any magical items worn within this area will also spark, dealing an additional and unavoidable hit point of damage each. The wild magic endures only until the end of the current round.

Only one of the above options can be used each round, or all can be ignored in favor of standard spellcasting. Given the spell's range, it could be cast at a far-away comrade, whether that person was a spellcaster or not. In cases like this, when the caster of the spell is not the focus of the spell (as was common), the spellshift only provided the protection as noted above. The target of the spellshift gained no insights or control over incoming magics, even if the target is a wizard of proper levels. For all intents and purposes, the spell becomes solely a protective globe of invulnerability.

The spellshift is unknown as the 10th-level spell as noted above, except within the Srinshee's own personal and long-hidden spellbooks; of all her apprentices and students, only Aravae Irithyl, Mythanthor, and Elminster Aumar learned this powerful magic. However, she and Elminster Aumar created a 9th-level variant of the spell with the same name, which is now among the rarest of spells on Faerun today. The differences between the 9thlevel version and the 10th-level form detailed above are these:

- The range drops to 25 yards + 10 yards per level.

- The duration is reduced to 4 rounds plus 1 round per every 5 levels of the caster.

- The sphere prevents only spells of up to 7th level from penetrating and affecting those within it; 8th and 9th-level spells now can pierce the spellshift.

- Now, the Manipulate effect is all that remains of the spellsight ability. As long as the caster of the spell to be affected is within 50 yards, one spell per round can be manipulated so the spellís target is of the spellshift caster's choice. Also, the caster can only manipulate and change the course of spells equal to his level in spell levels (i.e., a 19th-level wizard can spellshift two meteor swarms and a magic missile spell to targets of his choosing). Once the maximum is reached, the spellshift burns out and dissolves, no matter what the duration is.

In fact, many learned scholars who have heard of this incredibly rare and ancient spell postulate that this spell was one of the primary precursors for the globe of invulnerability spells that are now quite common. Others argue that ancient mantles paved the way to those spells, and they don't believe this spell ever existed in it 10th-level form. As in most things cloaked in the past's mysteries, truth depends entirely on one's point of view.

Edited by - Caedwyr on 18 Jan 2008 00:51:24
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore

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1537 Posts

Posted - 18 Jan 2008 :  02:06:32  Show Profile  Visit Jamallo Kreen's Homepage Send Jamallo Kreen a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There are a few essential differences between Epic level spells and 10th level and higher spells. First, Epic spell creation and casting REQUIRES a feat, and that feat is ONLY available after 20th level. Second, Epic spells MUST be based upon the Epic spell seeds. Third, there is a high probability that mis-casting an Epic spell will cause real harm to the caster, which few "normal" spells do.

As for Larloch, if I recall correctly, Ed has stated that he cannot cast 10th level spells even though he may have them in his spellbooks, and the same is true of other Netherese arcanists, including Aumvor the Undying and the Lady of Spellgard. One of the Elvish books cited previously explicitly states that Elven High Magic (which has ripped apart Toril more than once) no longer includes 10th level or higher spells -- Proctiv's Move Mountain can't hold an arcane candle to the High Elven spell "The Humans Have Started Moving into the Neighborhood, So We Might As Well Rip the Whole Continent Apart, Drown Tens of Millions of Sentient Beings, and Wind Up With a Really Kewl Vacation Island." Even with continuous access to the complete (and stolen) "Nether Scroll" collection in Myth Drannor they haven't been able to pull off that stunt since Karsus's Boo-Boo.

If anyone were able to cast a 10th level or higher spell, I'd say it would be the reigning King Oreme, yet the recent Anauroch adventure sure as heck didn't portray the Teraseer as uber-powerful!



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Hoondatha
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Posted - 18 Jan 2008 :  02:38:14  Show Profile  Visit Hoondatha's Homepage Send Hoondatha a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If I recall correctly, I think it was Secrets of the Magister (which was published after both Netheril and Cormanthor) that introduced the idea that Mystra didn't *actually* ban 10th+ spells, all she did was change the formulas iwthout telling anyone she did so. In theory, they could just be researched again.

To be honest, though, there was a lot of different, and sometimes conflicting, information about what exactly happened to 10th+ magic, even before 3e came out and muddied the waters even more with epic magic. Personally, I like this a lot, since it means you as a DM can do whatever you want, and still pull out references to support your view. And remember, some things that have been published (like "the sharn are Netherese wizards transformed to fight the phaerimm") have been revealed to be active deceptions.

The way I, personally, dealt with it was to take the "changed the recipes" version literally, and ruled that the elven nations of Eaerlann, Cormanthor, and Evereska banded together to reresearch all of their higher level spells. Jhaamdath (which has always been magical, not psionic in my Realms) was working on the same, but was destroyed before it had a chance. The Netherese survivor states were too busy founding themselves to do instensive research and most bought-into the "10th+ spells are gone for good" mentality, spreading the belief to other human wizards. Of course, the elves subtly encouraged this view. Today, elves of appropriate level as per the Netheril box set) can cast 10th and 11th level spells, they just don't advertise the fact (not that there are too many of that high a level).

I also have a rant about the fact that wizards darned well *would* know the level of their magic, but I'll create a new thread about that so as not to clutter yours.

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Sigh... And now 4e as well.
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Slaygrim
Learned Scribe

111 Posts

Posted - 18 Jan 2008 :  04:09:42  Show Profile  Visit Slaygrim's Homepage Send Slaygrim a Private Message  Reply with Quote
By all means, clutter mine. :)

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Caedwyr
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Posted - 18 Jan 2008 :  06:12:34  Show Profile  Visit Caedwyr's Homepage Send Caedwyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yep, on page 91 of Secrets of the Magister (2000) it says the following:

quote:
[Mystra] did this by altering their enchantments to make them both inoperative and incomprehensible to the Netherese alive at the time (in other words, all of the recorded incantation could no longer "take hold of the Weave" at all, and hence the spells simply would not work). Mystra also altered a few of the symbols and glyphs of these incantations to make the injurious to the minds of beings attempting to memorize them or read and tinker with them.

History incorrectly records this as changing humans to make the use of such magic beyond their grasp, or changing the nature of magic to make spells of greater than 9th level unintelligible to humans, because that is what the goddess wanted mortals to believe (to keep strivings after such forbidden spells to a minimum, and the waste of spellcasters' lives and efforts small).

It is possible, in the Realms of today, to research True Dweomers adn even new 9th level spells to achieve specific, severely limited ends that resemble parts of what a 10th level spell could achieve. It is also possible for mortal spellcasters alive today to use any written 10th level magic they may find, with the following warnings:

- Attempts to cast such magic will always fail the first time.
- All castings will be failures if the caster has less than 18 Intelligence and 16 Wisdom, and is of less than 20th level.
- All castings result in unintended wild magic results if the caster does not have the assistance of a second spell caster (of at least 18th level and 18 Intelligence) who uses another spell or spells to link his or her will, mind, and life energy to the principal caster, as an "anchor." Minor (or deliberate) discord among casters prevents the effective use of a third or additional spellcasters joining the anchor to make the spell more likely to take precise effect.
- All casting attempts are very likely (85% chance) to result in a loss of one experience level on the part of all casters involved, and will always cause the loss of 2d6 hit points and 1d4 other memorized spells (if any) from each of them.
- All casting attempts attract the attention of both Mystra and Azuth. If they deem the casting to be for purely personal ends, or to have the death or destruction of a rival mage or magical items as their primary goal, or to be in support of any tyranny or oppressive authority (in other words, to work against the free and individualistic ongoing development of magic use across Faerun), they will cause the end result to be feeblemindedness of all the casters involved and the instant disappearance of the written spell.

Edited by - Caedwyr on 18 Jan 2008 06:14:18
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Slaygrim
Learned Scribe

111 Posts

Posted - 18 Jan 2008 :  15:26:21  Show Profile  Visit Slaygrim's Homepage Send Slaygrim a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Caedwyr
It is possible, in the Realms of today, to research True Dweomers adn even new 9th level spells to achieve specific, severely limited ends that resemble parts of what a 10th level spell could achieve. It is also possible for mortal spellcasters alive today to use any written 10th level magic they may find, with the following warnings:


Just to clarify, is this saying that one can only cast new 9th level spells with limited effects of 10th level+ or that you can cast 10th level magic, but only if you use written magic that you find?

Or is it saying you can still research new 10th level magic (but no 11th and 12?) but when you do you must face the following warnings/consequences?

quote:
Originally posted by Caedwyr
- All casting attempts attract the attention of both Mystra and Azuth. If they deem the casting to be for purely personal ends, or to have the death or destruction of a rival mage or magical items as their primary goal, or to be in support of any tyranny or oppressive authority (in other words, to work against the free and individualistic ongoing development of magic use across Faerun), they will cause the end result to be feeblemindedness of all the casters involved and the instant disappearance of the written spell.

[/quote]

In the campaign I am currently putting together, the primary enemy is Halicron Indrid. He is a Netherese Arcanist of power (between 30th-39th level) who was recently freed from a Stasis Prison he was confined to deep beneath Azzrhat nearly 2000 years ago. One of his ancestors, a Halruaan wizard named Magnimar Indrid (Wz 19), and the previous campaigns villain, freed him.

The point of this is because I am searching for a plot. I need something, some plans of magnitude that Halicron is putting into motion to stir the plot for this next campaign. Halicron was imprisoned long ago by his Netherese peers after he was discovered crossing lines of acceptable research when dealing too closely with Arch Devils and Demon Prince's. I could tie his plans with what he was doing before he was stopped all of those years ago. Regardless, I am sure this campaign will have Epic Magic or more. I was particularly intrigued with him "breaking the rules" again, this time by trying to access forbidden levels of magic.

I posted more of what I was looking to do here:

http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10530

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Caedwyr
Seeker

87 Posts

Posted - 18 Jan 2008 :  18:14:50  Show Profile  Visit Caedwyr's Homepage Send Caedwyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'd suggest that new magic would have fewer restrictions than casting an old already existing 10th or higher level spells. Mystra and Azuth's mission in life appears to be the growth and spread of magic over Faerun, and even if in the end they would intervene if it got too out of hand, they'd probably let him run with it for a while. Reading Secrets of the Magister, you can really see that they aren't above experimenting and trying new things as far as the development of magic goes. The times they do intervene seem to be if the person in question is making an attack on magic in the world, or the person in question is using magic to step on the toes of too many other concerns of other deities. Otherwise, they're more likely to just let the guy run with it if it poses no obvious threat.

Also, as far as "breaking the rules" your situation seems to be something Halicron's peers imposed upon him and not the goddess of magic.
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