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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Dec 2007 : 04:59:24
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Ok, first impressions.
1) All the core 3E classes are mentioned and they've added Warlock and a new sword & sorcery type class. Wizards can't specialize, instead they're going with spell types, Ray spells (acid arrow & scorching ray) were used as an example of what they mean by types. They mention we might see Illusionist or Conjurer as it's own class later... not sure if I like this change.
2) Half elves, Half orcs, and Gnomes are notably missing from the races section. It seems like Warforge, Celestrals, and Drow will NOT be core, they're coming in later products according to this. There's a new dragon race and the fey race in there as Core, as is Tieling. I don't get the inclusion of Tieling without Aasimar.. the 4E Tieling look like Draeni from WoW.
It mentions the new Heroic, Paragon, Epic level system but doesn't give any solid information worth talking about, nor does the book actually give you anything you can play with. I suggest letting that friend you have that buys everything buy it and read his copy.
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"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2007 : 10:45:13
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Actually, when I think about the tiefling matter, the fault is all of Planescape. It was the Planescape boxed set that introduce the tiefling... without the aasimar.
Wizards of the Coast aren´t doing anything new with this... =/ |
Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
twitter: @yuripeixoto
Facebook: yuri.peixoto |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2007 : 15:18:17
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| Also, the 4E tiefling is different than the tieflings from older editions. The flavor text apparently says tieflings are a true breeding race that is the product of corrupt nobles from an ancient empire making pacts with fiends. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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sparhawk42
Learned Scribe
104 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2007 : 16:32:54
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quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza
Ok, first impressions.
1) All the core 3E classes are mentioned and they've added Warlock and a new sword & sorcery type class. Wizards can't specialize, instead they're going with spell types, Ray spells (acid arrow & scorching ray) were used as an example of what they mean by types. They mention we might see Illusionist or Conjurer as it's own class later... not sure if I like this change.
I'm a little confused, does this mean instead of specializing in a school a wizard can instead specialize in spell types? So if you specialize in ray spells you can't use another type of spell? |
You never fail until you stop trying. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2007 : 16:57:39
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"a new sword & sorcery type class"
The warlord? |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2007 : 17:29:41
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quote:
Originally posted by sparhawk42
I'm a little confused, does this mean instead of specializing in a school a wizard can instead specialize in spell types? So if you specialize in ray spells you can't use another type of spell?
They don't give any detail. Just saying the school specialization is gone and that spells will be organized by types. And that Wizards can an choose to become better at certain types of spells.
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
"a new sword & sorcery type class"
The warlord?
No, although that is in there too. It's called Swordmage. They uses the elven bladesinger or "a dwarf runic warrior who infuses his axe with words of ancient power" as examples of the class. |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
Edited by - SirUrza on 14 Dec 2007 17:32:12 |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2007 : 18:26:30
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Rich Baker has confirmed that the Swordmage class won't be in PHB IIRC.
However, it will be pictured in his next FR trilogy. |
Edited by - Skeptic on 14 Dec 2007 18:28:19 |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2007 : 18:32:42
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quote:
Originally posted by sparhawk42
I'm a little confused, does this mean instead of specializing in a school a wizard can instead specialize in spell types? So if you specialize in ray spells you can't use another type of spell?
The orb/staff/wand/etc. info from Races & Classes is outdated. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2007 : 18:58:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
The orb/staff/wand/etc. info from Races & Classes is outdated.
Yet another reason why this book might not be worth the money... |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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sparhawk42
Learned Scribe
104 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2007 : 21:25:31
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quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza
quote:
Originally posted by sparhawk42
I'm a little confused, does this mean instead of specializing in a school a wizard can instead specialize in spell types? So if you specialize in ray spells you can't use another type of spell?
They don't give any detail. Just saying the school specialization is gone and that spells will be organized by types. And that Wizards can an choose to become better at certain types of spells.
Hmm I think I prefer my wizards to be able to specialize into a specific spell school so I don't think I care much for this idea. But I guess it all depends on how they implement it. |
You never fail until you stop trying. |
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MerrikCale
Senior Scribe
USA
947 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2007 : 15:18:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
Rich Baker has confirmed that the Swordmage class won't be in PHB IIRC.
However, it will be pictured in his next FR trilogy.
The swordmage is basically a fighter who exchanges the ability to use armor with the ability to cast defensive spells |
When hinges creak in doorless chambers and strange and frightening sounds echo through the halls, whenever candlelights flicker where the air is deathly still, that is the time when ghosts are present, practicing their terror with ghoulish delight. |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2007 : 21:39:51
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*nods*
Yeah, think of some of the Paladin spells, I have a feeling we'd see similar spells and powers, but with an arcane flavor.
In any case, a lot of it looks promising, but without rules, the book isn't anything worthwhile. |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2007 : 09:38:00
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I have not been following the latest publishings of WotC. However without having been able to take a closer look at this new product, I doubt its usefulness. Won't we see most of its content in the upcoming 4th Ed. materiel anyway?!? To me this seems not more than a teaser, which I am certainly not willing to spend any money on.
Now, anyhow, as some readers might not know of what book it is we talk abouit, here is the link to the WotC product page: Races and Classes.
Enjoy. |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2007 : 15:10:42
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Another problem, for me, is that buying this product would be buying a book that just takes up space and becomes "junk" very quickly, as it's already a little outdated (apparently) and is as pointed out basically just an advertisement.
If it was a PDF we could purchase online, I *might* be more willing to shell out money for it. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2007 : 03:08:06
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| All true Rin, I got it out of curiosity really. I'm not following 4E developments because every time I hear something that's changed that's been that way for 30 years, I just have to wonder if the people designing 4E even anything about D&D's history and wonder if they even played it before WOTC and 3E. |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2007 : 05:30:32
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SirUrza, that's what you get when you put cool-looking computer geek resumes ahead of passion for the work involved. We have reached a stalemate in our age, a kind of plateau where imagination and passion has been demoted in favor of "certifications and transferable skills." Welcome to the paperless, non face-to-face age my friend. Case in point: Dragon and Dungeon... paperless now. Better? I'll let you all be the judge of that. I hope Ed brings a spare paddle when he gets on that 4E river... I really admire him for putting up with... err... keeping the Realms alive no matter what!  |
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Venger
Learned Scribe
USA
268 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2007 : 09:30:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
Rich Baker has confirmed that the Swordmage class won't be in PHB IIRC.
Damn shame. The class sounded interesting, and I'd love to try it out. Generally speaking, I'd prefer it if they had 12 classes in the initial PHB. That's a nice round number, especially if you have one class per role/power source.
But nevermind. At the very least, we know one of the classes which'll be appearing in the PHB2 a year and a half from now. |
"Beware what you say when you speak of magic, wizard, or you shall see who has the greater power." |
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Matthus
Senior Scribe
Germany
393 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2007 : 16:11:35
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I turned the pages and it certainly hadn’t wedded my appetite for 4E. I don’t think it worth to spend 20 bucks on a behind-the-curtain glimpse, and I understood that there will be more of these glimpses in the near future… There was a little – for free! – booklet from 2E to 3E that told about the changes; that would have been something I would have expected, but not this!
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2007 : 17:08:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Matthus
I turned the pages and it certainly hadn’t wedded my appetite for 4E. I don’t think it worth to spend 20 bucks on a behind-the-curtain glimpse, and I understood that there will be more of these glimpses in the near future… There was a little – for free! – booklet from 2E to 3E that told about the changes; that would have been something I would have expected, but not this!
They're saying 3.x isn't compatible with 4E, so a conversion guide is unlikely. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2007 : 18:41:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Also, the 4E tiefling is different than the tieflings from older editions. The flavor text apparently says tieflings are a true breeding race that is the product of corrupt nobles from an ancient empire making pacts with fiends.
What, are they rewriting continuity? |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2007 : 19:07:59
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quote:
Originally posted by khorne
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Also, the 4E tiefling is different than the tieflings from older editions. The flavor text apparently says tieflings are a true breeding race that is the product of corrupt nobles from an ancient empire making pacts with fiends.
What, are they rewriting continuity?
Well they did seem to indicate no retcons so perhaps the answer is spellplage killed off most tieflings, they ones that survived in effect becoming a viable race in their own right. *shrugs*
There can be other ways to write it as well without change of continuity because of a RSE. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2007 : 20:20:16
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| Bloody Hell! I want dwarven women to get their beards back! |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2007 : 22:21:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
They're saying 3.x isn't compatible with 4E, so a conversion guide is unlikely.
At GenCon they said they weren't doing a conversion guide. After GenCon and the feedback they received, they changed their tune and will be doing a conversion guideline. We're not going to see a 1:1 conversion. We didn't get that with AD&D to 3E either. All we really need is 3.0/3.5 XP = this much XP in 4E and we can go from there. |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2007 : 01:06:28
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quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
They're saying 3.x isn't compatible with 4E, so a conversion guide is unlikely.
At GenCon they said they weren't doing a conversion guide. After GenCon and the feedback they received, they changed their tune and will be doing a conversion guideline. We're not going to see a 1:1 conversion. We didn't get that with AD&D to 3E either. All we really need is 3.0/3.5 XP = this much XP in 4E and we can go from there.
Actually. Wooly is right about this, more then one game designer, after Gencon, has posted that you really can't convert 3/3.5e characters to 4e and so WOTC isn't making a conversion booklet. They expect you to start from scratch. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Matthus
Senior Scribe
Germany
393 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2007 : 08:24:23
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| I really wanted to say that I would have expected some information for free from WotC (even if there can't be a conversion)– not two or three books, each 20 bucks, which are giving glimpses into the new Races, into new Worlds and Monster and whatever – and then finally the Players Handbook which is needed to start from scratch… Seems I’m still dreaming too much |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2007 : 19:10:12
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quote:
Originally posted by khorne
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Also, the 4E tiefling is different than the tieflings from older editions. The flavor text apparently says tieflings are a true breeding race that is the product of corrupt nobles from an ancient empire making pacts with fiends.
What, are they rewriting continuity?
Honestly, I have no clue how they are going to deal with that--I don't think the designers have expounded on it yet.
They said they are avoiding retcons, but I have the feeling they are going to need to use some retcons, considering the scope of the changes. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2007 : 19:12:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
They're saying 3.x isn't compatible with 4E, so a conversion guide is unlikely.
At GenCon they said they weren't doing a conversion guide. After GenCon and the feedback they received, they changed their tune and will be doing a conversion guideline. We're not going to see a 1:1 conversion. We didn't get that with AD&D to 3E either. All we really need is 3.0/3.5 XP = this much XP in 4E and we can go from there.
Actually. Wooly is right about this, more then one game designer, after Gencon, has posted that you really can't convert 3/3.5e characters to 4e and so WOTC isn't making a conversion booklet. They expect you to start from scratch.
Or, as was said by a certain poster on the WotC boards, we'll have to wait for some nerdy person to make a viable conversion system and share it with us. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 20 Dec 2007 23:45:28 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2007 : 21:17:47
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One of those people did indicate they might provide a flavor quide to convert, clearly none have said a stat transversion can occur. That the game is far different.
IOW if you have a Bard you can not convert, but guideline might advise Warlock with interest in music (my example, not theirs). |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2007 : 22:56:44
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| I could have sworn on Wizards.Com they said straight up they reconsidered after the reactions they got at GenCon and were going to come up with a simple guideline for making your 3E character a 4E one. |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2007 : 23:19:39
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quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza
I could have sworn on Wizards.Com they said straight up they reconsidered after the reactions they got at GenCon and were going to come up with a simple guideline for making your 3E character a 4E one.
They said that they were reconsidering it, but made no promises. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2007 : 23:24:04
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| Hmmmm.. if I cared I'd hunt it down, but I don't. My AD&D > 3E human fighter/thief conversion was a disaster as were others looking back on it. We've all agreed here that if we continue playing our characters, we'd just restart their stats, keep the world and histories intact. |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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I got Races & Classes.. thoughts..
