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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
 Posted - 31 Oct 2007 : 14:09:57
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Since the other thread deals with the question, now you get the answer...well, we get the answer...
First off, when Karsus cast the spell that basically destroyed Netheril Mystryl recreated herself as Mystra, and if I remember correctly the Time-portfolio went the way of 3rd edition (please correct me if I am wrong there). Since time can be considered a stream which regular folks, and gods (?), perceive only at the moment it passes, and look back, Mystryl as the deity of Time as well as of magic should have been able to see Karsus's attempt to steal her power beforehand, and far more importantly the Time of Troubles and Cyric and Shar's assassination ATTEMPT.
Based on this assumption I would change events thusly:
Mytsra's Chosen are a key to Mystryl's backup plan. When Mystryl saw that the Weave and all of Abeir-Toril would be in danger should the events of the future succeed, she decided to "hardwire" a failsafe into her new incarnation: Mystra. Each and every being touched by Mystra in terms of being either the Magister or a Chosen, to a far greater extend, and every Weave-using being in general, to a far lesser extend, was in fact carrying with him a part of the Goddess, think of a zip-file splitted into major and minor chunks.
Thus: should the attempt succeed, an initial part of Mystryl inside one of her Chosen would start the process of "re-assembling" the goddess.
Mystryl also forsaw the eventuality of Chosen turning bad (like Sammaster) or using their goddess-given powers to intervene on everyone's behalf (like Khelben). The catch to all of this, however, was/is that even those "accidents" were part of her overall plan. To become a neutral deity again, Mystryl would have to see every aspect of the world. Mystryl knew that Mystra Mk II, to a far greater extend than Mystra Mk I, would be inclined to good, a situation that was totally unacceptable to Mystryl. It didn't matter whether a wizard died, became a lich, or a sharn, or whatnot, it all served Mystryl's purpose, even dragons, and shadow-weave-users relied on the weave, because to develop the shadow-weave, Shar had to use her own weave-given magic in the first place, thus making it succeptable to Weave influence, a fact that Shar was unaware of, and by the time it was created Shar did not know of Mystryl's actual knowledge of her plans.
Mystryl used Shar and Cyric like a tool to bring the Weave back into balance under a neutral deity, herself.
...more on this later...
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Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2007 : 14:36:45
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| I actually like this idea of Mystryl coming back as a pure Neutral goddess of magic....the conspiracy of Mystryl, goddess of time, gets better and better :P |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2007 : 15:29:13
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I look at it like this:
if Bane can come back because he was "in" Xvim...
and Moander can come back because he is in a ditch somewhere and needs only to absorb an avatar or a couple Chosen...
Then why in the seven stars can't the goddess of MAGIC come back when she has chosen walking around with her essence in them...I mean for crying out loud...if you are going to get rid of her, you gotta make sure there is NO WAY she can come back. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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turox
Learned Scribe
USA
145 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2007 : 15:51:21
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falls to his knees in prayer. All hail the mighty and powerful Mystryl! I have imagined the day you would return and reset the magic to the way it should be, I cannot believe that it has happened within my lifetime.
Thanks for making my Halloween Mace!
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Turox Antas Dragonslayer -
"People will believe anything they want to believe, or fear to believe."
Wizard's First Rule: Chapter 36, Page #397, US Hard Cover (revealed by Zeddicus Zu'l Zorander).
Explanation by Zeddicus Zu'l Zorander: "People are stupid; given proper motivation, almost anyone will believe almost anything. Because people are stupid, they will believe a lie because they want to believe it's true, or because they are afraid it might be true. Peoples heads are full of knowledge, facts, and beliefs, and most of it is false, yet they think it all true. People are stupid; they can only rarely tell the difference between a lie and the truth, and yet they are confident they can, and so are all the easier to fool."
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Dalmar Amad
Seeker
Germany
56 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2007 : 17:22:58
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I like the idea of Mystryl reborn. But wouldn't she have acted to prevent some desasters to magic itself if she knew they would happen. e.g.: the fall of Myth Drannor or the TOT.
Or do you think they were too insignificant in her eyes? |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2007 : 18:40:56
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| Personally, they have killed her three times now, I think they should just leave her dead. Not that I am happy that they killed her, but now that she is dead, I think she should be left that way. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2007 : 21:21:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalmar Amad
I like the idea of Mystryl reborn. But wouldn't she have acted to prevent some desasters to magic itself if she knew they would happen. e.g.: the fall of Myth Drannor or the TOT.
Or do you think they were too insignificant in her eyes?
Not insignificant, no, but if you want magic to be spread, for your own return's sake, then the only way to really achieve that is to not have it focused on one spot. Myth Drannor was such a spot. Silverymoon is said to be a second Myth Drannor, but it isn't... magical power isn't focused there as it was in Myth Drannor...
Regarding the TOT, if you look at it from a schemer's point of view the TOT was perfect for Mystryl's needs. Wild magic, dead magic... all those places that showed the power of magic... even in the case of the negating effect of dead magic zones... reverse psychology and that sort of thing. I think that the TOT made a lot more people turn to magic for stability since the gods, aside from a few like Mystra, refused to be debased to mere mortal status. Plus it brought forth Cyric which was essential to Mystryl's plan, he was the catalyst for Shar's plans. Before the TOT Shar would not have dared to reveal the shadow weave because Mystra mk I was far too powerful.
To Mystryl the TOT would've been a big ruse... like sacrificing a couple of pawns to check-mate the king...so to speak |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2007 : 21:23:33
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quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
Personally, they have killed her three times now, I think they should just leave her dead. Not that I am happy that they killed her, but now that she is dead, I think she should be left that way.
As I said in the "Realms re-imagined?" thread this is just my version of what is going to happen. Neither is this my "demand" to Wizards to do it my way... if you don't like it, fine with me. If you do like it, feel free to use it...it's not that I can claim any copyright on that stuff  |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2007 : 22:04:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
Not insignificant, no, but if you want magic to be spread, for your own return's sake, then the only way to really achieve that is to not have it focused on one spot. Myth Drannor was such a spot. Silverymoon is said to be a second Myth Drannor, but it isn't... magical power isn't focused there as it was in Myth Drannor...
I can't agree with this... Concentrations of magic in an area will, I think, tend to encourage the use of more magic. Places like Silverymoon or Myth Drannor attract large number of mages. Some go to live quietly, some go for research, and some go to learn from others. The latter two options help spread magic further. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2007 : 22:21:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
As I said in the "Realms re-imagined?" thread this is just my version of what is going to happen. Neither is this my "demand" to Wizards to do it my way... if you don't like it, fine with me. If you do like it, feel free to use it...it's not that I can claim any copyright on that stuff
I was not trying to cause an argument, I apologize. That is just my two coppers worth on that subject. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Dalmar Amad
Seeker
Germany
56 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2007 : 23:04:42
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I have to agree with Wooly here. Just imagine to what heights magic could have been raised if Myth Drannor had prevailed.
Of course, Mystryl might have sacrificed Myth Drannor, knowing that with her return she would be able let mages reach even higher mastery of magic.  |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2007 : 00:09:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalmar Amad
I have to agree with Wooly here. Just imagine to what heights magic could have been raised if Myth Drannor had prevailed.
Of course, Mystryl might have sacrificed Myth Drannor, knowing that with her return she would be able let mages reach even higher mastery of magic.
That's the line of thought I was trying to get across... with the "sacrifice" she may have lost her queen but with her return it'll turn out for the better... she couldn't let anyone, including herself recreated as Mystra mk I, in on this scheme it would've resulted in the plan failing... plus she knew that Myth Drannor would fall...and many mages left the city before the fall ever came to pass thus spreading magic again |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2007 : 01:41:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
and many mages left the city before the fall ever came to pass thus spreading magic again
Well, yeah, the fall of the city would spread out the mages -- but then those mages would be relatively isolated from each other, and any further research would be thus limited. Having lots of mages in one area, though, leads to collaboration and the sharing of research. And with many mages in an area, it's easier for prospective mages to find tutors and training. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Caedwyr
Seeker
87 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2007 : 04:07:11
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| Or you could go with the Shadows perspective and argue that the fall of Myth Drannor would drive further magical research and discoveries in the long run, spurred on by the many magic seekers and adventurers and archmages who visited the ruins seeking treasure and lost magics, to combat the fiends, and to attempt the restoration of the city. Mystryl wasn't a good deity, so when playing a long game, a little suffering wouldn't be an issue. Plus, it would add a nice insight into how the actions of the deities, while they may seem incomprehensible do have a purpose. For immortal beings, I'd think that type of subtle long term scheming and planning would be a lot more common than has been portrayed. |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2007 : 12:39:07
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If you so like you could of course interpret the death of the first Mystra in a totally different light. Mystryl knowing the future events and ploting, and being actually a part of teh Mystra might have tempted/motivated the Mystra into confronting Helm in order to bring her plot along.... or something like that...
I did not think through every loophole here but just wanted to through my initial thoughts into this discussion. Like the idea of a neutral godess of magic alot.
Ergudsch |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
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Dalmar Amad
Seeker
Germany
56 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2007 : 12:45:36
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Maybe Mystryl ordered her followers to secretly found an enclave outside of Toril (Selūne? or some other rock in realmspace) that served as a place where mages could gather and research new ways of magic.
And whenever there was a major event like the Fall of Myth Drannor, the most innovative mages were approached beforehand so that they could join this enclave to further magical research(and get to safety).
This secret enclave, of course was to stay secret until Mystryl's return to power. So whatever happened to magicusers on Toril, her cause survived. |
Edited by - Dalmar Amad on 01 Nov 2007 12:46:45 |
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Sian
Senior Scribe
Denmark
596 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2007 : 12:54:56
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| would also to some extend explain why Liira's Illusion around Selūne keeps funtioning even after she apperiently was killed |
what happened to the queen? she's much more hysterical than usual
She's a women, it happens once a month |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2007 : 13:14:26
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A secret mage-enclave sounds like a good plan, but I'd suggest it more a place of gathering knowledge and spreading it from there (Elminster, after all, as seen in The Temptation of Elminster, spread unknown magics on Mystra's behalf so that it could be found, again).
The reason why I said that a convergence of wizards would be disastrous to Mystryl's long term planning is based on real world information spread so to speak. If you have a very very very important file or document, and you save it only in one place (in this case Myth Drannor) and said place is destroyed you lose large bits, if not the entire file (I know that from experience, and if someone hadn't been able to restore my harddrive the work of a couple of years would have been lost for good!) That's why I said the mages had to be spread, Mystryl's plan was not to increase magical knowledge in general, but rather create as many copies of a split-zipped file as possible, thus increasing her ultimate survival.
When you know that your copies are spread among (unknowing) individuals throughout the world the chances of your ploy's success increase a lot. Plus, I daresay, Halruaa and Thay are virtual powerhouses of magic, with Halruaa being even more important than Myth Drannor in terms of magical research.
Mystryl's plan wasn't to increase and improve magical knowledge in general but to spawn as many copies of her "files" which would, ultimately, be impossible if everything conversed in one spot that is, if not exclusive, at least bound by the physical boundaries of the place. Lonely mage towers with wizards having two to five apprentices, who in turn would have two to five apprentices once fully educated, is a far safer way for the survival of magic. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2007 : 16:26:52
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Yeah, but it's easier to find files when they're all located on one server or on a single network. Scattering those files to lone machines in locations with little network access makes them much harder to access. 
It's like colleges or libraries... Sure, more knowledge in one place is more vulnerable, but more in one place attracts more people to it. With more people, it's ultimately spread out more than if only a handful of people can get to it. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Aravine
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2007 : 17:16:39
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quote:
Originally posted by dalor_darden
I look at it like this:
if Bane can come back because he was "in" Xvim...
Then why in the seven stars can't the goddess of MAGIC come back
because there is a vast differance between sacrificing yourself, and being slain. it was sacrifice. that is the difference. she did a noble act. it's like aerith coming back in FF7. it kind of takes the importance of it. I like the concept, but I do think it takes the point of the sacrifice away. |
The brave don't live forever,the cautious don't live at all |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2007 : 17:38:00
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Trying to form my thoughts here.
Well, a combination of centers of knowledge with a varied and outspread net of individuals and minor enclaves of magic and knowledge would in my mind work best. That would preserve both the scholastic and the mystic side of magic and Mystras worshipers. Throughout the history of the Realms she has acted through a combination of clergy, individuals and groups of magic when it comes to spreading her dogma. The Realms has a relatively low density of magic colleges and large centers of magic, if one looks beyond tyrannical Thay and isolationist Halruaa |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2007 : 23:52:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Aravine
quote:
Originally posted by dalor_darden
I look at it like this:
if Bane can come back because he was "in" Xvim...
Then why in the seven stars can't the goddess of MAGIC come back
because there is a vast differance between sacrificing yourself, and being slain. it was sacrifice. that is the difference. she did a noble act. it's like aerith coming back in FF7. it kind of takes the importance of it. I like the concept, but I do think it takes the point of the sacrifice away.
Why does it diminish the sacrifice? Mystryl, if I understand her "chracter" correctly, was a very tough hardliner in many regards, plus she didn't sacrifice her existance, she merely reincarnated herself as Mystra mk I. If you ask me, a sacrifice is something final, and Mystryl weaseled herself out of that already. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2007 : 23:53:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
Trying to form my thoughts here.
Well, a combination of centers of knowledge with a varied and outspread net of individuals and minor enclaves of magic and knowledge would in my mind work best. That would preserve both the scholastic and the mystic side of magic and Mystras worshipers. Throughout the history of the Realms she has acted through a combination of clergy, individuals and groups of magic when it comes to spreading her dogma. The Realms has a relatively low density of magic colleges and large centers of magic, if one looks beyond tyrannical Thay and isolationist Halruaa
That's what I've been trying to say all along... get outa my head, Jorkens |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
Edited by - Mace Hammerhand on 01 Nov 2007 23:54:14 |
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Dalmar Amad
Seeker
Germany
56 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2007 : 14:31:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
Thus: should the attempt succeed, an initial part of Mystryl inside one of her Chosen would start the process of "re-assembling" the goddess.
So how would this reassembling work? Like in Highlander?
That would mean all Chosen of Mystra/Mystryl would start to kill each other so that in the end there would only be one left with all of Mystryl's power turning into the godess? |
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Aravine
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2007 : 14:46:21
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| Because if you sacrifice yourself to save, in essence, the world, there needs to be something you lose. besides that think about the weave falling on someone. thats like getting hit with a Shrere of Annililation. your spirit is destroyed |
The brave don't live forever,the cautious don't live at all |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2007 : 15:01:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalmar Amad
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
Thus: should the attempt succeed, an initial part of Mystryl inside one of her Chosen would start the process of "re-assembling" the goddess.
So how would this reassembling work? Like in Highlander?
That would mean all Chosen of Mystra/Mystryl would start to kill each other so that in the end there would only be one left with all of Mystryl's power turning into the godess?
Nah, I kinda thought it would be more like a gathering of power ... as if basically a part of Mystryl's essence would leave the host body to join with the rest... gathering motes of light so to speak |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2007 : 15:02:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Aravine
Because if you sacrifice yourself to save, in essence, the world, there needs to be something you lose. besides that think about the weave falling on someone. thats like getting hit with a Shrere of Annililation. your spirit is destroyed
Mystryl reincarnated herself as Mystra...there was no real sacrifice... |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Aravine
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2007 : 16:22:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
quote:
Originally posted by Aravine
Because if you sacrifice yourself to save, in essence, the world, there needs to be something you lose. besides that think about the weave falling on someone. thats like getting hit with a Shrere of Annililation. your spirit is destroyed
Mystryl reincarnated herself as Mystra...there was no real sacrifice...
the FRCS specifically said she sacrificed herself. |
The brave don't live forever,the cautious don't live at all |
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Aravine
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2007 : 16:59:17
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| I take something that direct at face value |
The brave don't live forever,the cautious don't live at all |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2007 : 23:08:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Aravine
I take something that direct at face value
I stand corrected, but have to point out that in Magic of Faerūn Mystryl sacrifices herself and is reborn as Mystra, which brings us back to my original point...
Let's end the discussion regarding her sacrifice... I like the idea of the whole plot within plot thing by Mystryl (otherwise I wouldn't've written it down here) and I don't wanna split hairs over an interpretation of the word sacrifice, let's just leave it at that and get back to the point...as I said before, if you don't like my idea, I can live with that |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2007 : 07:15:29
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Again, just brainstorming around what Mace says.
The idea of a reborn self-reincarnating goddess does not exactly go against the idea of a sacrifice. It is a common mythological trope. Here it would be tied to the element of instability and change in magic. The power of Mystra is uncontrollable in nature and she will act in numerous ways to foresee and "flow with these changes". In the eyes of human worshipers it might seem as a sacrifice, but to the divine it might just be another element of reality having its effect on the Weave and everything tied to it, giving the goddess a new form and a new presents of sorts. |
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Realms re-imagined!
