| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Kuje |
Posted - 08 Dec 2004 : 05:22:42
The Chalice of the Serpents, part one:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rl/20041208a
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| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| ShepherdGunn |
Posted - 31 Mar 2008 : 08:03:49
The hook is interesting. I may use it, but I'm not sure. The problem with it is, the Headless Horseman has been played so many times in so many ways, it's hard to come up with an "original" take on it. I'm not saying it's impossible, just difficult. I'm not too keen on it myself, mind you, but I think it would make sense that there would be a Headless Horseman in the Realms. Decapitation is a primordial fear, and a common punishment, as well as a fatal battle wound. In a magic rich environment, with or without the Mists of Ravenloft, I would expect there to be regular "embodiments" of key, ingrained, concepts. After all, in a way, isn't that what the Gods are supposed to be?
I don't think there needed to be a Realms-Lore article about it, IMO. I always figured things like the Headless Horseman and the Jersey Devil were things left for the DM to flesh out in their game as "side-quests". |
| Brimstone |
Posted - 30 Mar 2008 : 06:06:36
-Maybe Malar and Yeengy are one and the same now?
BRIMSTONE |
| The Sage |
Posted - 28 Mar 2008 : 15:24:28
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Bakra
Hey Wooly,
The Mists of Raveloft reached into other lands, the darklords were unable to tell the Mists where to go. The Horseman was the only one who could literally travel to other lands. But I understand what you are telling me.
So a Waterdeep griffon rider who lost his head during the Time of Troubles while fighting the undead would be more acceptable correct?
Darklords can't direct the Mists where to go, but as I recall, it said in the original boxed set that when conjunctions happened, even they could escape from Ravenloft by leaving the area before it went back to the Demiplane of Dread.
That is essentially correct.
It should also be noted however, that conjunctions between the Domains of Dread and other Material Planes, are extremely rare occurences. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 28 Mar 2008 : 15:20:54
quote:
Originally posted by Bakra
You are trying to make me cry?
It almost worked. 
Of course, the 3e RAVENLOFT material has plenty of "holes" in the planar framework that supports it. Enough, perhaps, to suggest the possibility that the Headless Horseman may have visited a Realms-like world within the cosmology that contains the Domain of Dread.
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| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 28 Mar 2008 : 15:12:37
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
I'm all fine with using stories for inspiration (hey, I'm a librarian, after all!  ) and do it occasionally myself. The trouble is, the whole article was pretty much directly "lifted" from Burton's movie version, and all my players have seen that. Which makes this hook unusable for me.
I understand that. To each, their own. I actually haven't seen that Sleepy Hollow movie, so if this article copies the movie in any way, I wouldn't notice. I have read the story by Washington Irving, but that has more to do with two men competing for the love of a woman (and thus, this Realmslore article evokes little of that story for me except for the fact that there is a headless horseman in it).
quote:
I whole-heartedly agree with ShadezofDis' and Faraer's comments (especially about inconsistencies about some detalis).
Yes, I agree with them too. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 28 Mar 2008 : 15:09:19
quote:
Originally posted by Bakra
Just out of curiosity, what is wrong with capturing the feel of Sleepy Hollow? (Which was capturing the feel of the original story by Irving)
Can't speak for everybody, but I did say I didn't see anything wrong with that.
As for the other complaints, yes, the name "X'Fas" bothered me too, because I don't believe in random apostrophes (just like I don't believe in random capitalization). But I didn't want to come off as overly negative. In a way, I'd rather read this than yet another article about how the Spellplague destroyed everything I liked about the Realms, even if such an article happened to be well-written. |
| ShadezofDis |
Posted - 28 Mar 2008 : 14:45:38
quote:
Originally posted by Bakra
Hey Wooly,
The Mists of Raveloft reached into other lands, the darklords were unable to tell the Mists where to go. The Horseman was the only one who could literally travel to other lands. But I understand what you are telling me.
So a Waterdeep griffon rider who lost his head during the Time of Troubles while fighting the undead would be more acceptable correct?
Bakra,
First off, on a post you want to quote you can hit the button on the far right of the header, it will quote the post you click it on.... if that makes any sense. 
But, what would have been more acceptable would be just the story of the Zhent merc group trying to work in the Dalelands. That plot alone has VAST potential. Are the Zhents flying the flag proud? Are they trying to hide the fact that they're Zhents? Are they a group that defected? Are they a group that claims to have defected but are in fact spying on the Dalesmen?
A headless horseman is a cheesy monster. It doesn't really offer much in the way of a campaign arch. I mean, you could say that the blade is actually devil infested (maybe demon) so that when the PCs manage to "kill the horseman" they don't actually succeed, it's just a while before the blade finds a new host. I mean, there's potential there, but it's "generic" potential rather than "Realmsian".
And there's nothing wrong with generic stuff. Just don't try to push some poorly conceived piece, that ignores a nation of Elves (because they clearly wouldn't have cared about marauding Gnolls, not in their forest home, certainly not...) ... well, Faraer put it well enough.
My problem with it is that it's mediocre at best. Maybe it's that I'm older and am more interested in societal pressures, economic factors and disdainful of "hollywood cool". I mean really disdainful.
And, that's all I've seen from the new lore, "hollywood cool". |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 28 Mar 2008 : 14:33:43
quote:
Originally posted by Bakra
Hey Wooly,
The Mists of Raveloft reached into other lands, the darklords were unable to tell the Mists where to go. The Horseman was the only one who could literally travel to other lands. But I understand what you are telling me.
So a Waterdeep griffon rider who lost his head during the Time of Troubles while fighting the undead would be more acceptable correct?
Darklords can't direct the Mists where to go, but as I recall, it said in the original boxed set that when conjunctions happened, even they could escape from Ravenloft by leaving the area before it went back to the Demiplane of Dread.
And while your theoretical headless Waterdhavian griffon rider isn't a dramatically better choice, it is better than the "generic horsedude with no head" template.
I was yesterday reading the Children of the Mists Ravenloft MC appendix. One of the characters in there is a beheaded human woman, who can control any head she binds to her neck with a magical ribbon. She's lost her own head, and is searching for it. However, she can still function while headless, and when she steals someone's head, she can use that person's class abilities. Now that is an interesting variation on the entire idea. |
| Bakra |
Posted - 28 Mar 2008 : 12:56:16
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Bakra
I like to point out there is at least one other headless horseman in the Realms, he happens to be a Darklord of Ravenloft. His road can appear anywhere in the known planes that have roads and the road has a nasty habit of following its intended target.
Sorry, but being able to appear in the Realms is not the same as being in the Realms. If that logic were true, then all of Ravenloft's Darklords would be considered characters of every setting, since Ravenloft's domains sometimes pop up in other campaign worlds.
And with the separation of setting-specific cosmologies, it's unlikely that the RAVENLOFT-based Headless Horseman would still be able to access the Realms in 3e, as easily as he once did in previous editions.
You are trying to make me cry?
It almost worked. |
| Bakra |
Posted - 28 Mar 2008 : 12:52:44
****
And that's fine. But that doesn't mean that there should be identical tales in the Realms.
The concept of a headless guy on a horse is fine. People just want an execution of it that feels more appropriate to the setting, and less like something that was shoehorned in by adding a few Realms names.
*****
Hey Wooly,
The Mists of Raveloft reached into other lands, the darklords were unable to tell the Mists where to go. The Horseman was the only one who could literally travel to other lands. But I understand what you are telling me.
So a Waterdeep griffon rider who lost his head during the Time of Troubles while fighting the undead would be more acceptable correct? |
| Asgetrion |
Posted - 28 Mar 2008 : 12:22:37
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
It is pretty obviously a take on "The Legend of Sleepy Hollow", but I have to say I see using various stories for inspiration is fair game (although again, "Zhent Headless Horseman" sounds awkward and comes off as directly "lifted").
I'm all fine with using stories for inspiration (hey, I'm a librarian, after all! ) and do it occasionally myself. The trouble is, the whole article was pretty much directly "lifted" from Burton's movie version, and all my players have seen that. Which makes this hook unusable for me. And once again I'm reminded of the fact that it seems that most of the stuff seems to be written for a whole new customer base who haven't read any FR accessories (e.g. that 'Wailing Dwarf'-piece) or seen any fantasy-themed films due to their age.
I whole-heartedly agree with ShadezofDis' and Faraer's comments (especially about inconsistencies about some detalis). It seems that in order to be totally faithful to the movie, those Gnolls had to come from half the world away and the mercenaries had to be "ruthless" and "dangerous" outlanders. I think that those "vorpal rune nightmares" and stuff probably have something to do with 4E magic system and game mechanics, but not necessarily, since all NPCs/monsters now have 'exception-based' abilities that do not function the way PC abilities do. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 28 Mar 2008 : 12:17:49
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Bakra
I like to point out there is at least one other headless horseman in the Realms, he happens to be a Darklord of Ravenloft. His road can appear anywhere in the known planes that have roads and the road has a nasty habit of following its intended target.
Sorry, but being able to appear in the Realms is not the same as being in the Realms. If that logic were true, then all of Ravenloft's Darklords would be considered characters of every setting, since Ravenloft's domains sometimes pop up in other campaign worlds.
And with the separation of setting-specific cosmologies, it's unlikely that the RAVENLOFT-based Headless Horseman would still be able to access the Realms in 3e, as easily as he once did in previous editions.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 28 Mar 2008 : 11:36:06
quote:
Originally posted by Bakra
I like to point out there is at least one other headless horseman in the Realms, he happens to be a Darklord of Ravenloft. His road can appear anywhere in the known planes that have roads and the road has a nasty habit of following its intended target.
Sorry, but being able to appear in the Realms is not the same as being in the Realms. If that logic were true, then all of Ravenloft's Darklords would be considered characters of every setting, since Ravenloft's domains sometimes pop up in other campaign worlds.
quote:
Originally posted by Bakra
A headless being riding around on some form of transportation has probably been around for a long time in the Realms. And depending on geographic location will determine its name. For example, the Flaming Fist headless horseman or Tugian headless horseman.
While it's likely not an uncommon concept, the naming of it could still be better. "The Headless Tuigan" for example, sounds better than "The Tuigan Headless Horseman". Sticking with the adjective Headless Horseman pattern brings to mind the real world legends, and thus feels less like something you'd find in the Realms.
quote:
Originally posted by Bakra
Just out of curiosity, what is wrong with capturing the feel of Sleepy Hollow? (Which was capturing the feel of the original story by Irving)
The fact that it's a real world story that everyone is familiar with. It doesn't feel Realmsish to tell the exact same story with some name changes.
quote:
Originally posted by Bakra
And I loath to mention the real world but I can name at least three in the United States.
And that's fine. But that doesn't mean that there should be identical tales in the Realms.
The concept of a headless guy on a horse is fine. People just want an execution of it that feels more appropriate to the setting, and less like something that was shoehorned in by adding a few Realms names.
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| Bakra |
Posted - 28 Mar 2008 : 11:21:28
I like to point out there is at least one other headless horseman in the Realms, he happens to be a Darklord of Ravenloft. His road can appear anywhere in the known planes that have roads and the road has a nasty habit of following its intended target. A headless being riding around on some form of transportation has probably been around for a long time in the Realms. And depending on geographic location will determine its name. For example, the Flaming Fist headless horseman or Tugian headless horseman. Just out of curiosity, what is wrong with capturing the feel of Sleepy Hollow? (Which was capturing the feel of the original story by Irving)
And I loath to mention the real world but I can name at least three in the United States.
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| Markustay |
Posted - 28 Mar 2008 : 05:39:32
You know, nothing for nothing, but why are all the articles still being written by D&D designers? They supposedly had an 'open call', and I know hundreds of people submitted ideas...
So are they trying to tell us ONLY WotC employees are good enough to write Dragon articles? 
I think that 'open call' was pure BS, like everything else.
Anyhow, the article was alright - not great, not terrible... but definately derivitive. If the lead-man on the FR design team is this starved for ideas, I think we may be in trouble.
I like Bruce Cordell's novels, and I was looking forward to seeing the FRCG because I thought he might be able to make something decent out of it, judging by his writing talent. After that article, I'm not so sure.
Like I said, I didn't hate it, but it made me feel very ambivalent toward any future contributions of FR lore by Mr. Cordell. 
I mean... your tongue even trips over the name.
Why not the "headless Zhent", or the "Zhentish Horsemen" - I just can't picture people yelling "Look! There goes the Zhent Headless Horsemen!" By the time you said that, he would already have killed you. |
| Faraer |
Posted - 28 Mar 2008 : 04:55:01
Modelling design work on Mage in the Iron Mask, clumsy naming of 'Zhent Headless Horseman' (to distinguish it from all the other Headless Horsemen plaguing Faerūn?), multiple visitors happening to know detailed news from Thesk half a world away, Shadovar (maybe) behind yet one more thing, a spurious fantasy apostrophe, use of thoroughly unRealmsian 'mercs', and 'Dalelanders' each time instead of 'Dalesfolk' (though 'coin' is managed), lack of incidental Realmslore, unevocative vagueness about what place the 'mercs' garrison or which village was burned down or who hired them (they must be rich!), mischaracterizing the Zhentilar and (I guess) Elminster and the Dalesfolk: no good explanation of why they'd hire their enemies (or even want 'Zhentarim know-how') instead of other adventuring or mercenary companies or defending themselves -- they've faced bigger threats, yet 'the Dales' (an area the size of Germany) as an undifferentiated unit is terrorized by one humanoid tribe...
Ed's current clack pieces did far more than this in a sixth the word count. It's not terrible, but it's mediocre, on the level of Robert Wiese's adventure hooks, well below Rich Baker's and Brian James's "Realmslore" pieces. It has little sense of place and doesn't feel the least bit like the Realms. Bruce is the lead designer of the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide. |
| Purple Dragon Knight |
Posted - 28 Mar 2008 : 03:38:17
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Zhent Headless Horseman
UN-BELIEVE-ABLE |
| ShadezofDis |
Posted - 27 Mar 2008 : 20:36:15
I'm also a little confused why the Gnolls would be worshiping Malar, when their own god Yeenoghu would have been an exact fit....
Is it because Gnolls don't worship Yeenoghu anymore? Or because having Malar be demonic is far "cooler" than having him be a more nature oriented god?
The Sleepy Hollow deal annoyed me too.
As does the "The field commander of the garrison was a tall man named Astin Lesander who had the trust of those beneath him, a rare thing in Zhentarim circles." as I've always been of the impression that the Zhents fighters were generally trusting of each other and distrusting of the mages.
Then there's the whole "Where'd the elves go?" deal.
And the "You mean the Zhent mage had a vorpal rune nightmare? What the heck?"
And the re-enforcement of the whole "Elminster is too powerful!" deal.
I mean, it's not terrible, but I'd be a little ashamed to run with this hook. (not to mention the level of mockery that'd be coming my way) |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 27 Mar 2008 : 20:29:52
It is pretty obviously a take on "The Legend of Sleepy Hollow", but I have to say I see using various stories for inspiration is fair game (although again, "Zhent Headless Horseman" sounds awkward and comes off as directly "lifted"). |
| Asgetrion |
Posted - 27 Mar 2008 : 19:40:28
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Moradin
The legend of the headless zenth?
Hey, that sounds good!
Thanks for the link, Wooly.
I don't know -- seems like a 'Sleepy Hollow' rip-off all the way. Maybe there's more to the tale, but most of the details (e.g. the horseman was a mercenary and seems to reside in a knotted tangle of trees) are clearly inspired by the movie.
I thought there already were gnolls in the Dalelands? And why invent a new tribe, when it would have been easier to focus on the shaman? Because it wouldn't have been "faithful" to 'Sleepy Hollow'? I think it would have been better if the gnoll adept had been a fiendish servant of Malar from Thesk (or even Malar's avatar). Or, perhaps, the gnoll lair would have been located near those Netherese barrows...
In parts it was actually quite good, but 'Sleepy Hollow' and 'The Standing Stone'-adventure pretty much make this hook boring (as in "been there, done that") for my group. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 27 Mar 2008 : 18:01:44
quote:
Originally posted by tauster
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
[snip]
Yeah, I only found the link in one spot. It wasn't on the main page.
I found it here (the site I check regularly for new stuff):
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4arch/main&authentic=true
Ditto.
It was better, though, when new stuff got listed on the main page, and we had a separate FR page. |
| tauster |
Posted - 27 Mar 2008 : 16:17:45
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
[snip]
Yeah, I only found the link in one spot. It wasn't on the main page.
I found it here (the site I check regularly for new stuff):
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4arch/main&authentic=true |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 27 Mar 2008 : 14:49:29
I agree that "The Headless Zhent" would have sounded less awkward.
But, you know what? I'm actually happy to see Realmslore that has nothing to do with the Spellplague (at least, I didn't see anything about it in the article). |
| The Sage |
Posted - 27 Mar 2008 : 11:58:12
Interesting. It's nice to see gnolls getting some attention again. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 27 Mar 2008 : 11:33:04
quote:
Originally posted by Bakra
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
New Realmslore!
Zhent Headless Horseman
I find that name a bit awkward; I think "The Headless Zhent" would have worked better.
As always thanks for the link.
The Headless Zhent does sound better than the original title. Is it me or the recent Realmslore article hidden away on the website?
Yeah, I only found the link in one spot. It wasn't on the main page. |
| Chosen of Moradin |
Posted - 27 Mar 2008 : 11:06:19
The legend of the headless zenth?
Hey, that sounds good!
Thanks for the link, Wooly. |
| Bakra |
Posted - 27 Mar 2008 : 10:45:59
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
New Realmslore!
Zhent Headless Horseman
I find that name a bit awkward; I think "The Headless Zhent" would have worked better.
As always thanks for the link.
The Headless Zhent does sound better than the original title. Is it me or the recent Realmslore article hidden away on the website?
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 27 Mar 2008 : 10:31:13
New Realmslore!
Zhent Headless Horseman
I find that name a bit awkward; I think "The Headless Zhent" would have worked better. |
| Ergdusch |
Posted - 17 Jan 2008 : 11:29:49
quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
New bit of Realmslore - The Wailing Dwarf
quote:
Upon hearing the dwarf's exhalation, one comes away with the sense that it is hardly likely the noise could have anything other than an unexpected explanation.
Now why does the Wailing Dwarf wail? I was hoping for some explenation but.... no answer to that question. Instead more confusion by such statements as these:
quote:
...access into the heart of the ruined city beyond the First Antechamber contested by immortal guardians set there to keep secret the Wailing Dwarf's windy heart.
and quote:
Created expressly by secret makers, the immortal guardians in the Wailing Dwarf take the form of guardian nagas.
What in the Nine Hells do guardian nagas have to do with dwarves? Is there a far reaching historical explenation to this that I am unaware of?
Or are the guardians no nagas in the end but only take that particular form? If so - why is that so? And who are the secret makers of those?
More quedstions raised than answered. There has to be more to this dwarven city. I am looking forward to the next article: The Wailing Dwarf - Part 2.
Or else I have to consult the spirits of Lancameth and his Last Expedition Companions to get my answer...
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| crazedventurers |
Posted - 17 Jan 2008 : 09:58:47
quote:
Originally posted by Eremite
As for those trolls, how are they kept from starving to death?
They eat each other, so you rip an arm of one to feed and the arm grows back.
This assumes of course that the energy you need to regenerate is a lot less than the energy you get from eating the arm.
Plus feasting on any stray adventurers that manage to get past the Guardian Naga's as well (I thought they were LG? has this changed in 3.75? I dunno, keeping trolls chained up so they go insane does not seem to fit a LG attitude to me.......). Plus the usual dungeon ecology of fungus/insects/rats etc will feed trolls as well.
Maybe the Guardian Naga's create food for the trolls, you know to prove that they are LG after all and care for their slaves......
Can you guess I think this is a really poor article
Damian |
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