| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Seethyr |
Posted - 09 Dec 2020 : 01:40:35
Are the deities, particularly those taken from real world cultures, aware of their different versions across the various worlds?
(Much of this assumes a Planescape view of the multiverse btw)
This question actually has multiple parts to it because I can think of a number of cases where there are slight variations that still might make a difference.
For example, Set. Set canonically came from our world’s Set. I’m assuming they are the same being in their outer planar kingdom. Am I correct?
But then there are gods like Tyr. Does he have differing kingdoms for different versions of himself? Can he meet himself on the outer planes and discuss if Fenris or Kezef bites harder?
How about Qotal and Quetzalcoatl? I think they’re a whole different level where they really have become two different gods. Can one meet the other and think “hey, you’re me with a few less letters!”
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| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 17 Dec 2020 : 13:01:35
quote:
Originally posted by Returnip
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
The world is full of many fantastic mythologies. I agree that us "Yanks" don't draw enough on what is here though (I myself am interested in Japanese mythology).
Oh thread topic: As Sleyvas quoted, I think the multispheric deities are aware of their various "personas", at least to some extent.
I should add that some do allow themselves to become inspired by northern american culture to great effect. The understanding of frontier life is one of the things that makes the Silver Marshes so interesting to me. Politics of keeping small states together in a larger union another. And if we go back, revolution, civil war, native culture clashing with the expansion of civilisation, native mythology and so on.
And if we stretch ourselves geographically and include the middles, we've got pirates, and before that golden temples, human sacrifice and sun worship.
Like, there's a whole setting right there. 
If you are into that kind of thing, you should check out the stuff Seethyr (and me to a smaller degree) have been doing with Anchorome that's up on DM's Guild. He's been more into exploring the "existing" cultures of Anchorome/Maztica/Lopango with an eye towards native american cultures, shamanism, spirit worship, etc... but he's also doing some development with Fort Flame. I've been somewhat exploring the idea of western cultures starting to make a dent in the area. Unlike the original Maztica stuff however, I don't see them making a sweeping impact on the continent and just seizing large amounts of territory. I see it kind of more of them taking a small area, getting it under control despite outside forces, and then expanding while incorporating local cultures into their own so that they're no longer like the culture that arrived. At present, my thoughts are simply Fort Flame and possibly some islands off the coast where the Faerunians can build in relative peace while exploring inland and having a place to retreat back to (until the sea races that noone ever thinks about become a problem for them). |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 17 Dec 2020 : 02:15:09
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Tyche's split was detailed in novel lore ... and was unrelated to Zeus in any way.
True. But in the Planescape book On Hallowed Ground, it says the Greek pantheon doesn't know where Tyche is and that Hermes and Pan are actively looking for her.
Though I don't think Zeus would care all that much; the book says she was basically being shoved aside, anyway. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 17 Dec 2020 : 00:49:29
Tyche's split was detailed in novel lore ... and was unrelated to Zeus in any way. |
| Mirtek |
Posted - 15 Dec 2020 : 19:44:10
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Ye olde 1E Deities & Demigods had "rules" which defined the abilities of deities. Lesser deities could create Avatars of themselves. Greater deities could create Aspects of themselves - essentially a "cloned" or "spawned" or "forked" version of themselves, one invested with a portion of the deity's power and portfolios. Realmslore described Azuth as an Aspect of Mystra - he was an ascended mortal given part of Mystra's power and her dominion over wizards.
I would consider deities like Realms-Tyr and Realms-Tyche to be "aspects" of Norse-Tyr and Olympian-Tyche - initially "copies" of the originals, very similar though not quite identical - evolved over time (and Faith) into slightly different deities with very different histories and slightly different powers.
They may or may not be aware of their "meta" antecedents, descendants, and counterparts. I think it really boils down to their mythology in the Realms ... Realms-Tyr has a faith which describes his arrival in the Realms but makes no mention of where (or what) he came from before, it seems likely they just assume he is the one and only Tyr in the cosmos, that he left some other world to arrive on Toril ... while Realms-Tyche was barely described at all, her origins on Olympus are not mentioned at all, it seems the faithful of the Realms believe she has always (and only) been one of the goddesses manifested by Ao. I'm guessing the identities and understandings of these deities are themselves shaped by the faiths which worship and sustain them. Remember that deities can manifest new powers and portfolios and personalities when enough faith is provided - so it seems like they might also lose powers and portfolios and identity when faith in these old things has vanished.
Well, in 2e they considered to be exactly the same entities, just watching multiple worlds in a "multi-skype-call"
Tyche's split into Beshaba and Tymora (which may have been nothing but a scheme to escape Zeus' brutal ironfisted rule over the olympian pantheon) left the fellow olympian confused about where Tyche vanished to, why her realm was decaying and even her proxies found themselves suddenly powerless and none the wiser about what happened to their deity.
Would likely have caused a planar pantheon war if Zeus' had ever found out who "stole" one of his subjects |
| Returnip |
Posted - 15 Dec 2020 : 08:26:28
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
The world is full of many fantastic mythologies. I agree that us "Yanks" don't draw enough on what is here though (I myself am interested in Japanese mythology).
Oh thread topic: As Sleyvas quoted, I think the multispheric deities are aware of their various "personas", at least to some extent.
I should add that some do allow themselves to become inspired by northern american culture to great effect. The understanding of frontier life is one of the things that makes the Silver Marshes so interesting to me. Politics of keeping small states together in a larger union another. And if we go back, revolution, civil war, native culture clashing with the expansion of civilisation, native mythology and so on.
And if we stretch ourselves geographically and include the middles, we've got pirates, and before that golden temples, human sacrifice and sun worship.
Like, there's a whole setting right there. |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 15 Dec 2020 : 00:37:25
The world is full of many fantastic mythologies. I agree that us "Yanks" don't draw enough on what is here though (I myself am interested in Japanese mythology).
Oh thread topic: As Sleyvas quoted, I think the multispheric deities are aware of their various "personas", at least to some extent. |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 14 Dec 2020 : 20:34:24
Master LordofBones,
quote:
That is, until 4e turned the Royal Family of Baator into a byzantine semi-incestous soap opera.
haha, so true. 4e just sort of went... full idiot, from my perspective.
Best regards,
|
| LordofBones |
Posted - 14 Dec 2020 : 14:21:21
Being a god cheapens the Lord of Nessus. The Lord Below does not need to be a god; he rules Baator because he's Asmodeus, not because he's a god. All the Nine Pits bend to his will by dint of his personal might, not because mortals worship him; if anything, mortals who delve too deeply into the nature of the Lord Below simply vanish.
That is, until 4e turned the Royal Family of Baator into a byzantine semi-incestous soap opera. Bensozia coldly refusing to betray her lawful consort and driving Levistus into a murderous fury is vastly more interesting than yet another cheap ripoff of the Targeryan family. |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 14 Dec 2020 : 01:44:52
Senior Scribe Delnyn,
quote:
4E made Asmodeus seem like Pazuzu's chump. What a crock...unless Asmodeus deliberately spread such a rumor to muddy the waters more.
Yeah, I just ignored all that stuff. As Great Reader Ayrik said, I myself consider Asmodeus a deity as well. That is one powerful devil. ;)
Best regards,
|
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 14 Dec 2020 : 01:42:23
Senior Scribe Delnyn,
I knew it! I had these suspicions all along. Has anyone posited this now working theory to the Great Oversorcerer on the Twitter? ;)
Best regards,
|
| Delnyn |
Posted - 13 Dec 2020 : 11:06:50
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
To be honest, I've always viewed Asmodeus as a deity in D&D. (Although not in the same way as 4E Realmslore explained.)
Archfiends are comparable in power to archangels. Even though the former are invariably condemned to lording over pits of suffering while the latter are often effectively elevated to demigod (or higher) status in D&D lore.
We all understand why TSR/WotC prefers to keep carefully keep devils and gods separated, no matter how fine (or arbitrary) the fine distinctions (logic or game mechanics) which separate them might be with more objective examination.
4E made Asmodeus seem like Pazuzu's chump. What a crock...unless Asmodeus deliberately spread such a rumor to muddy the waters more.
Yeah, the distinctions are fine and arbitrary. Archfiends ostensibly cannot directly grant spells. When all is said and done, clerics of Orcus, et. al. cast divine spells and access domains, whether in Realmspace or another crystal sphere. Screw the pretzel semantics. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 13 Dec 2020 : 01:01:52
quote:
OK. Back on topic: Would you all be amenable to include archfiends and celestial paragons as relevant to this thread?
To be honest, I've always viewed Asmodeus as a deity in D&D. (Although not in the same way as 4E Realmslore explained.)
Archfiends are comparable in power to archangels. Even though the former are invariably condemned to lording over pits of suffering while the latter are often effectively elevated to demigod (or higher) status in D&D lore.
We all understand why TSR/WotC prefers to keep carefully keep devils and gods separated, no matter how fine (or arbitrary) the fine distinctions (logic or game mechanics) which separate them might be with more objective examination. |
| Delnyn |
Posted - 12 Dec 2020 : 18:08:50
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Once, on a trip to the state of Georgia, some local kids saw the license tag on our car and called us Yankees.
...It was a Florida license tag. 
Damn, did you hear dueling banjos? (B-b-bing-bing-bing-bing-biiinnng)
Whenever I have been called Yankee, I replied, "That's Red Sox."
OK. Back on topic: Would you all be amenable to include archfiends and celestial paragons as relevant to this thread? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 12 Dec 2020 : 13:34:14
Once, on a trip to the state of Georgia, some local kids saw the license tag on our car and called us Yankees.
...It was a Florida license tag. |
| Returnip |
Posted - 12 Dec 2020 : 12:20:08
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Seeker Returnip,
quote:
My partner is very much into southern gothic. I think you yanks are way to prone to taking inspiration from abroad for mythology when in reality you have some really good, all-american stuff to draw from and build on. 
haha...first of all: thanks for the compliment! I love hearing 'Yanks'! :) I married a beautiful English woman, and her family refers to me as a Yank. :)
I also appreciate your outlook on American stuff. I think we do have some good stuff over here of our own. However, in light of pretty amazing European stuff, we do get a bit of a cloud, but I get it: great stuff in Europe too! :)
Best regards,
Yeah the use of the term was meant with affection, so I hope nobody took offense.  |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 12 Dec 2020 : 03:11:23
Seeker Returnip,
quote:
My partner is very much into southern gothic. I think you yanks are way to prone to taking inspiration from abroad for mythology when in reality you have some really good, all-american stuff to draw from and build on.
haha...first of all: thanks for the compliment! I love hearing 'Yanks'! :) I married a beautiful English woman, and her family refers to me as a Yank. :)
I also appreciate your outlook on American stuff. I think we do have some good stuff over here of our own. However, in light of pretty amazing European stuff, we do get a bit of a cloud, but I get it: great stuff in Europe too! :)
Best regards,
|
| Returnip |
Posted - 11 Dec 2020 : 11:13:18
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
..how cool a modern GURPS: Illuminati / American Gods would be..
My partner is very much into southern gothic. I think you yanks are way to prone to taking inspiration from abroad for mythology when in reality you have some really good, all-american stuff to draw from and build on. |
| Delnyn |
Posted - 11 Dec 2020 : 10:31:03
House Rothschild controls Sembia, approves all appointments to Amn's Council of Six and have hereditary rights to clergy positions in the Church of Waukeen. Behind House Rothschild are shapeshifting yuan-ti from the Thuban system (who also secretly sponsor all of Toril's star pact warlocks).
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Great Reader Ayrik,
quote:
The Realms is full of cults. Small gods, big gods, monster gods, beast gods, forgotten gods. Some of them rival (or exceed) the power of established Faerunian deities except they're not widely accept as legit for whatever reason.
Indeed. Definitely familiar with a good amount of the cults in the Realms. It is weird though as you mention, that they are not accepted as legit.
quote:
I wouldn't be surprised if some foreign, interloping, intruding gods from elsewhere started off in the Realms as cult icons.
So you do admit the Illuminati are behind all of the Realms cults...? I figured as much. ;)
Best regards,
|
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 11 Dec 2020 : 03:16:09
Great Reader Ayrik,
quote:
The Realms is full of cults. Small gods, big gods, monster gods, beast gods, forgotten gods. Some of them rival (or exceed) the power of established Faerunian deities except they're not widely accept as legit for whatever reason.
Indeed. Definitely familiar with a good amount of the cults in the Realms. It is weird though as you mention, that they are not accepted as legit.
quote:
I wouldn't be surprised if some foreign, interloping, intruding gods from elsewhere started off in the Realms as cult icons.
So you do admit the Illuminati are behind all of the Realms cults...? I figured as much. ;)
Best regards,
|
| AuldDragon |
Posted - 11 Dec 2020 : 03:00:33
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Legends & Lore was early 2E. But it was a shameless reprint of (2nd printing, non-Cthulhu, non-Elric, non-Nehwon) 1E Deities & Demigods, nearly identical with new cover art and thoroughly lazy copypasta reformatted into 2E game stats (basically just new ability score tables, a few changed spell details, and no psionics). As I recall, it was actually the very first time I purchased a TSR product which made me question the quality of their business ethic.
Deities and Demigods was retitled to "Legends & Lore" in 1984 or so, with new cover artwork (a few years after removing the Cthulhu and Melnibonean entries) but the interior was the same. The *2e* Legends & Lore was a completely new book (and included Nehwon), not just "copypasta." It set the format standard for Deity and Specialty Priest entries used up until Faiths & Avatars came out (and still used for compact write-ups in some products even afterwards).
Jeff |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 10 Dec 2020 : 15:19:00
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Great Reader sleyvas,
That quote from F&A really makes me think how cool a modern GURPS: Illuminati / American Gods would be, but using sort of less powerful versions (and much fewer) Realms gods. That just exploded in my imagination at how cool that could be. Cult like stuff, essentially! :)
Best regards,
Yeah, my ideas that I've been developing for the "Metahel Pantheon" using the metahel humans from the City of Gold product in Anchorome (who seem to be something like vikings or northmen or illuskans or Rus) have been fun to theorize with where I'm both hinting at the gods being the gods of Norse myth, but also many of them are also possibly the gods of the Faerunian Pantheon. For instance, the head of the pantheon is Thoros, a god with a missing eye and who is missing his forearm and which is replaced by a prosthetic limb, but who sounds a lot like Thor (and similar to Marvel's Thor). At the same time... if he weren't good, he'd sound a lot like Talos, who is also missing an eye and has a removable hand. His wife, Sifya the Warmother, the red goddess of skill in battle and shieldmaidens.... she could be the red knight quite easily. The sun god is a hostage from the "Faernir Tribe" (does that mean faerie or faerun or neither?) named Faerthandir, who rides across the sky upon a golden furred foxibou (antlered fox). Alaeralie "The Deceptress"/:Mistress of a Million Myths" resembles a cross of the Enchantress and Lorelie of Marvel norse myth, while at the same time resembling Leira (sounding out her name even sounds like "A Leira Lie".
I've got a bunch of others (some relating to Toril gods, some seldarine, some other pantheons, some marvel entities)
Eldunna / Freya / Eldath & Sune or possibly the elven goddess of love
Snoedramorphe / Snotra / Siamorphe
Valigor the Runtborn Giant / Loki / Valigan Thirdborn
Magnaer Yaernsacsasun / Magni / Magnar the Bear
Moedae Sifyasun / Modi /
Anachtar / Tyr(norse) / Tyr (Faerun)
Hemdahl the Nineborn God / Heimdall / Helm
Skaragos / Skurge (marvel) / Garagos
Faersellis Meunnindun / Munin / Tarsellis Meunniduin (snow elf god)
Faernmarel Mystarane / Freki / Fenmarel Mestarine
Kezris the Spirit Wolf / Fenris / Kezef
Lamasgrboda / Angrboda / Lamashtu
Heleshkigal / Hel / Ereshkigal & Raven Queen
Besparr the Manylegged / Sleipnir / Besparr the "Lord of Horses"... changed to "include Reindeer Lord"
Raelkath Maneeboughs / Relkath of the Many Branches
Audhum-Bhalla / Audumbla / Bhalla of Rashemi pantheon
Kaelleara the Horned Hamadryad / Verenestra / Khelliara of Rashemi Pantheon
Its kind of fun making the relations try to fit both and leaving it hanging as to what the truth is... and for all we know, its just a unique deity. I added a few that are "unique" but obviously related to norse myth. Some of them are not so much worshipped by the metahel as another group (for instance Faersellis Meunnindun is a snow elven god but they use the "correct" name for him, who was referenced more in the pantheon when Asagrimmr/Odin was alive and seen more as an "ally" ) |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 10 Dec 2020 : 08:06:13
@cpthero ...
The Realms is full of cults. Small gods, big gods, monster gods, beast gods, forgotten gods. Some of them rival (or exceed) the power of established Faerunian deities except they're not widely accept as legit for whatever reason.
I wouldn't be surprised if some foreign, interloping, intruding gods from elsewhere started off in the Realms as cult icons. |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 10 Dec 2020 : 06:41:13
Great Reader sleyvas,
That quote from F&A really makes me think how cool a modern GURPS: Illuminati / American Gods would be, but using sort of less powerful versions (and much fewer) Realms gods. That just exploded in my imagination at how cool that could be. Cult like stuff, essentially! :)
Best regards,
|
| sleyvas |
Posted - 10 Dec 2020 : 01:43:01
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
My mistake ... the material about Aspects & Avatars was actually in the 1E Manual of the Planes, the last few pages before the index.
Legends & Lore was early 2E. But it was a shameless reprint of (2nd printing, non-Cthulhu, non-Elric, non-Nehwon) 1E Deities & Demigods, nearly identical with new cover art and thoroughly lazy copypasta reformatted into 2E game stats (basically just new ability score tables, a few changed spell details, and no psionics). As I recall, it was actually the very first time I purchased a TSR product which made me question the quality of their business ethic.
Ah, that makes a lot more sense. I didn't have access to the 1e manual of the planes when I was that young, that came later when I had more spare change to pick up used books. I don't think I ever gave it a lot of attention because the planescape stuff was what started defining the planes to me more (but even that I didn't have a lot of money for, and so my planar knowledge is a haphazard mix from across editions). I'm going to take some time later to flip through the original. Also, thank you both for the reminder on the name of the 2e book. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 10 Dec 2020 : 01:06:01
My mistake ... the material about Aspects & Avatars was actually in the 1E Manual of the Planes, the last few pages before the index.
Legends & Lore was early 2E. But it was a shameless reprint of (2nd printing, non-Cthulhu, non-Elric, non-Nehwon) 1E Deities & Demigods, nearly identical with new cover art and thoroughly lazy copypasta reformatted into 2E game stats (basically just new ability score tables, a few changed spell details, and no psionics). As I recall, it was actually the very first time I purchased a TSR product which made me question the quality of their business ethic. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 09 Dec 2020 : 23:30:09
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
@sleyvas 1E Deities & Demigods ... most of the book is descriptions of deities and pantheons, but the mechanical nitty gritty is all near the beginning or the end of the book.
Yeah, I was looking at the version that has the cthulhu mythos, and I didn't see anything involving avatars or aspects. The reason why I was looking was that I didn't think I'd ever heard the term avatar until the ToT happened, and I was surprised when you said that they actually had some terms talking about lesser gods with avatars and greater gods with aspects in D&DG. I just kind of wanted to read the original thoughts on those subjects versus the ideas that came later, etc... Then again, I know there was another deities and demigods in 2nd edition (at least I think they called it that in that edition) that was more formalized. I don't think I have that one handy though. I'll have to hunt.
Both versions of Deities & Demigods were 1e books. The version that came out in 2e was Legends & Lore.
I can't speak to the similarities, there; I didn't replace my copy of Legends & Lore and I'd not looked through it in a long time when I lost it. I replaced my copy of the Cthulhu/Elric Deities & Demigods, though -- got a great deal on it by finding an eBay seller who didn't appear to know there were different versions. |
| bloodtide_the_red |
Posted - 09 Dec 2020 : 22:02:47
In Planescape:
Each god lives on a plane in a pure form. A deity is a complex life form made up of a lot of views.
Many deities join(or are created or born as part of) a pantheon, for aid, defense and such. As part of the pantheon, the deity "fits in" with the pantheon. The dwarf gods choose to look like dwarves, the 'Norse' gods all choose a 'viking like' look. In a general sense the "Pantheon Deity" is most often the default deity. For the couple of deities that are loners also pick "default standards" for themselves.
When a pantheon moves to get worshipers on a world, most often the whole pantheon moves as a single unit.
Some times, a deity feels brave, and will go out on their own: test the waters on an unknown planet. Most often a deity will keep it simple and assume their default home plane form on the new world. Some times they would tweak it a bit....and some times they would change it up a lot.
The end result is that there is just a single deity on it's homeplane, that simply "plays a role on each world". |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 09 Dec 2020 : 21:22:20
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
@sleyvas 1E Deities & Demigods ... most of the book is descriptions of deities and pantheons, but the mechanical nitty gritty is all near the beginning or the end of the book.
Yeah, I was looking at the version that has the cthulhu mythos, and I didn't see anything involving avatars or aspects. The reason why I was looking was that I didn't think I'd ever heard the term avatar until the ToT happened, and I was surprised when you said that they actually had some terms talking about lesser gods with avatars and greater gods with aspects in D&DG. I just kind of wanted to read the original thoughts on those subjects versus the ideas that came later, etc... Then again, I know there was another deities and demigods in 2nd edition (at least I think they called it that in that edition) that was more formalized. I don't think I have that one handy though. I'll have to hunt. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 09 Dec 2020 : 16:19:58
@sleyvas 1E Deities & Demigods ... most of the book is descriptions of deities and pantheons, but the mechanical nitty gritty is all near the beginning or the end of the book. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 09 Dec 2020 : 12:44:02
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Ye olde 1E Deities & Demigods had "rules" which defined the abilities of deities. Lesser deities could create Avatars of themselves. Greater deities could create Aspects of themselves - essentially a "cloned" or "spawned" or "forked" version of themselves, one invested with a portion of the deity's power and portfolios. Realmslore described Azuth as an Aspect of Mystra - he was an ascended mortal given part of Mystra's power and her dominion over wizards.
Hey Ayrik, there's nothing wrong with what you said, and I agree with it, but I was just surprised that they had THAT level of detail back in 1e and wanted to read it. Do you remember where that's at? I was just looking and all I could find was the old rules of only certain levels of spells coming from gods of certain power levels. |
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