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T O P I C    R E V I E W
Theodore Posted - 22 Jun 2020 : 08:54:23
In an ideal world I'd be able to make this post from my original account but I can't remember the email address so here we are.

Moving on i have some good news for everyone. Back in 2008 we had a convo about the hidden city of hope and Steven E and Bruce R were kind enough to join in.

The long and short of that talk was we have to see what wizards of the cost wants to do with it.

Fast Forward 12 years later we now have the DMs guild where realms Authors put out unofficial sources books all the time much to my hearts joy since we aren't getting novels anymore.

That being the case I messaged Ed and said I know you just released a book on the Border Kingdoms would you be willing to do one on Rhymanthiin. I said id love to im booked up for the next 4 years how about we talk to Steven since he created it.

At which point Steven joins the chat! I asked him would you be willing to make this for us to throw it up on DM's guild. He said listen its been on the back burner and in the back of my head for awhile I could probably have one done by the end of the year. Keep an eye on my website for details.

This is where we are at currently. 12 years of asking my friends and we are close than ever before and that's my update. If you want to see my original post from 2008 its called Hidden City of Hope.
30   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
sleyvas Posted - 28 Jun 2020 : 21:39:10
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

That's actually some neat suggestion, and intuitive too. Thanks for sharing.



Thanks for the feedback. A lot of times its people coming back and saying "I don't get why X would happen" that makes me think things through. It was actually Wooly saying repeatedly that he didn't get why Ao would want Leira to fake her death that made me think through some of these shenanigans actually. A lot of this is just fun to conjecture when I'm sitting around waiting in a waiting room, etc... and then an idea hits me, and I just start trying to put pieces together. The other day, I was stuck in an MRI machine for an hour (yay, no brain aneurysm) and my mind was just buzzing away with stories that you'll see in another thread for some NPC's from the moon.
Irennan Posted - 28 Jun 2020 : 20:43:22
That's actually some neat suggestion, and intuitive too. Thanks for sharing.
sleyvas Posted - 28 Jun 2020 : 20:26:53
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

Yeah, that's a positive and creative mindset; I wasn't arguing against trying to turn the Spellplague stuff into something that can work in your game (and Ao's wanting to move gods between Abeir and Toril is interesting, though I'm having troubles figuring out why he would want to do it in such a destructive way).



Personally, on that last part, I'm a BIG proponent of Ao is a liar. He's not as powerful as he lets on or as people believe. He can't just "snap his fingers" and things happen. He has to make them happen, and sometimes they don't exactly happen the way he figured they would. He also probably has less power over the "primordials" than he does the "gods". So, when he sends a few dozen gods over to Abeir, along with the mortals that they'll need for worship energy..... its kind of like someone playing a game of "Warcraft" who spawns up a bunch of high powered creatures and a lot of "support minions" and then just hurls that "horde" at the enemy and hopes it will wean them down a bit.... then he turns back to doing his build up again and not paying attention to exactly how some of those live and/or die.

So, in essence, why did Ao twin the worlds? Because he wanted one world that he could put under his thumb (Toril) with his gods, and another that held those beings that were a problem for him. Then he setup a bulwark of sorts between him and them, and slowly began marshalling forces. I suspect too that this isn't truly the first time lands have transferred back and forth, though a lot of those transferred lands may have been separated from Faerun proper.
Irennan Posted - 27 Jun 2020 : 21:11:01
Yeah, that's a positive and creative mindset; I wasn't arguing against trying to turn the Spellplague stuff into something that can work in your game (and Ao's wanting to move gods between Abeir and Toril is interesting, though I'm having troubles figuring out why he would want to do it in such a destructive way).

Mine was more of a side-observation re: the fact that the Spellplague is an incovenient plot device, since it requires so many shenanigans if you want to make something constructive out of it, while still maintaining a good explanation of why it's tied to the Spellplague. And this is not a statement against complexity; I really enjoy complexity and layers of lore and mysteries in a setting. It's just when this complexity is made up of bending over backwards to fit what ultimately was sketchy design, its value is not what it would be if it was designed with a specific goal in mind.
Like when someone doesn't fully plan a plot, and at a certain point has some idea that contradicts a previous event, and has to bend over backwards to try to reconcile the two.
sleyvas Posted - 27 Jun 2020 : 01:00:48
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

Props to you, Sleyvas, for coming up with such intricate explanations; I especially like the part about dream magic being used to restore some deities (though I'm generally fond of dream/mind shenanigans to affect reality), and the drow pantheon working to free some aspects from Lolth, like Zinzerena, which would explain her return in a really cool way. Though--unfortunately--Idk if it makes sense for Eilistraee to take part in those, not because she wouldn't, but because Ed explained that she remained on Toril and was powerless at the time. Regarding Vhaeraun and Lolth trapping him, or Vhaeraun giving up his freedom for Malyk (not sure if in-character for Vhaeraun, but w/e), this could work as a narrative, if 1)his followers didn't all of sudden become obedient and threw millennia of mindset and resistance out of the window 2)it was made clear in the source, and 3)it was made clear that Malyk's and Vhaeraun's churches (all of his old guard, and even those among his new followers who came to know of the truth from the old ones, and don't want to play nice) were working together to free him. Throw in Eilistraee too, given that it's what she would do, that Ed explained that she and Vhaeraun have reached a truce, and that she has the portfolio of freedom in addition to her old ones now. Zinzerena too. This way, the rebel faction would remain (it would even be enlarged, and they could be aiming to free Selvetarm too), the drow wouldn't be even more one note. Because yes, we can use this in a campaign, but WotC's presentation *utterly* fails, on all fronts (and is also incompatible with any explanation, because it straught retcons stuff).

All of this also makes me think how bad of a plot device the Spellplague was, that you have to come up with such convoluted theories to use it in a constructive manner that ties in with previous lore, and that even this way, it keeps failing. For example, we know Mystra knew of the Spellplague (through Savras, or however she learned about it)--if there were so many deities willing to come together and fix it, why didn't the just prevent it setting a trap for Cyric or something? It's the logical choice tbh. Ed had to come up with the fact that the renewal of the Weave was needed, but even in his version, it wouldn't have been catastrophic, and Cyric was the unexpected factor that led to the cataclysm.



Thanks. On the E working with the others, I don't see it much either, but its still an option. For instance, what if the eyes that people saw on Toril was in fact some artifact of E's or someone using magic to appear to be an aspect of E. Just an idea, and one I'd pursue more only if I wanted to use Eilistraee on something else more specifically in Abeir.

On the "why didn't the gods prevent it", first they may not have had a CLEAR answer of what they needed to do. For instance, Leira may have simply have known she had to fake her death and infect Cyric as the Cyrinishad. Secondarily, and this one is one I'm of the mind for more, Ao himself WANTED to send gods to Abeir. The dragons and primordials were just TOO oppressive, and he wanted to give these mortal factions, such as the dragonborn who were opposing the dragons, another tool in their toolbox for working against the powers that be. To note, he is essentially doing this right after he's spanked the gods for screwing up their own jobs in the ToT (sure, 28 years later... an eyeblink in the eyes of Ao). So, perhaps SOME divine domains that attached to Abeir won't come back to Toril and those gods will stay. Also, SOME of the people that were on Toril that have now transferred BACK to Abeir may also help in this by bringing the worship of gods like Bahamut. Essentially, Ao made the gods separate like 35000 years ago, but that doesn't mean he intended it to STAY that way.

Oh, and yep, I totally agree with the statements that I'm having to do a lot of shenanigans to make this work. However, it also gives some reason for the gods to come back on Toril without it being what people are complaining about (i.e. "they're just back"). I guess I'm just trying to stay positive about the bag o' mess we were given with the spellplague and then the follow up sundering (which I'm glad for that follow up mind you), and instead come up with some way that it makes "sense" AND can also give us some significant changes in the places coming BACK in ways that maybe we might like. For instance, what if Nimbral had been in Abeir and it was visited by some god to protect it from the forces of Abeir (Maybe Leira, but also maybe Eilistraee, maybe some Seldarine god who was missing from Toril, etc...)? What if there were large portions of the moon settlements that transferred to Abeir, and these started using spelljamming vessels to work with Nimbral? What if we were to find out that the Knights of the Flying Hunt have more than a few special mounts... as in their pegasi are in fact werepegasi… a remnant of the fey folk who were on Nimbral when the Leirans came there (btw, this last one, I am currently making true).



Irennan Posted - 26 Jun 2020 : 16:52:53
Props to you, Sleyvas, for coming up with such intricate explanations; I especially like the part about dream magic being used to restore some deities (though I'm generally fond of dream/mind shenanigans to affect reality), and the drow pantheon working to free some aspects from Lolth, like Zinzerena, which would explain her return in a really cool way. Though--unfortunately--Idk if it makes sense for Eilistraee to take part in those, not because she wouldn't, but because Ed explained that she remained on Toril and was powerless at the time. Regarding Vhaeraun and Lolth trapping him, or Vhaeraun giving up his freedom for Malyk (not sure if in-character for Vhaeraun, but w/e), this could work as a narrative, if 1)his followers didn't all of sudden become obedient and threw millennia of mindset and resistance out of the window 2)it was made clear in the source, and 3)it was made clear that Malyk's and Vhaeraun's churches (all of his old guard, and even those among his new followers who came to know of the truth from the old ones, and don't want to play nice) were working together to free him. Throw in Eilistraee too, given that it's what she would do, that Ed explained that she and Vhaeraun have reached a truce, and that she has the portfolio of freedom in addition to her old ones now. Zinzerena too. This way, the rebel faction would remain (it would even be enlarged, and they could be aiming to free Selvetarm too), the drow wouldn't be even more one note. Because yes, we can use this in a campaign, but WotC's presentation *utterly* fails, on all fronts (and is also incompatible with any explanation, because it straught retcons stuff).

All of this also makes me think how bad of a plot device the Spellplague was, that you have to come up with such convoluted theories to use it in a constructive manner that ties in with previous lore, and that even this way, it keeps failing. For example, we know Mystra knew of the Spellplague (through Savras, or however she learned about it)--if there were so many deities willing to come together and fix it, why didn't the just prevent it setting a trap for Cyric or something? It's the logical choice tbh. Ed had to come up with the fact that the renewal of the Weave was needed, but even in his version, it wouldn't have been catastrophic, and Cyric was the unexpected factor that led to the cataclysm.
sleyvas Posted - 25 Jun 2020 : 14:03:25
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

Selvetarm's already there for that storyline. Even if WotC hadn't been ingoring LP ever since it was published, changing Vhaeraun like that is a bad development, worldbuilding-wise. Not only it sh*ts on his core concept, but brings redundancy, and makes the drow even more ridiculously one-note. Exploring a theoretical consequence of LP, Vhaeraun wouldn't have just been defeated, he would have become loyal, obedient, etc... He's even more passive than Selvetarm, who at least hates Lolth! Bsides, as I said, MToF presentes this as if it had always been the case.

The drow are already stupidly one note, it makes no sense for Lolth to be where she is (talk about exploring consequences, the consequences of Lolth having a completely idiotic, self-destructive society are never explored; everything goes back to how it was in the beginning whenever things go "wrong" for her. WoTSQ, for example, was a non-story). Vhaeraun's culture and opposition really didn't need to disappear in addition to that. As I said, WotC brought the hot situation they're in on themselves.

Re: Ed's quote, what follows is from Ed. Ofc, not even this is official. WotC is outright ignoring everything, as I said. They even retconned Eilistraee and Vhaeraun as Lolth's&Corellon's kids, and Selvetarm as Vhaeraun's son; claimed that drow souls just go poof after their death, etc...

quote:
[...]Mortals in the Realms can rarely know the doings and specifics of the gods with certainty, because clergies and even the gods themselves sometimes avoid the truth, or the whole truth, or slant what they say so much. So it is with the “deaths” of Eilistraee and Vhaeraun. Vhaeraun entered Eilistraee’s realm and sought to destroy her, but perished there by her hand, and she subsumed his portfolios—or so the story spread among drow. Most assumed that meant she became the drow deity of thievery, but in truth, Eilistraee (who pronounces her own name “AISLE-iss-try-ee,” by the way) defeated Vhaeraun with Mystra’s indirect aid [Mystra IS the Weave, and it was the Weave that frustrated and drank Vhaeraun’s magics, but augmented those of Eilistraee] but did not slay her brother. Rather, she trapped his sentience within the Weave, leaving him in an “endless dream” engineered by Mystra, who enfolded him. In this dream, Mystra slowly convinced Vhaeraun to cooperate in a pact with herself and Eilistraee so that they could all survive what was to come: the Sundering, wherein both Eilistraee and Mystra would be “slain,” magic would go wild, and the worlds of Abeir and Toril would pass through each other and then be sundered.

Eilistraee emerged from her battle with her brother as The Masked Lady, and fulfilled her own portfolios of song, beauty, dance, swordwork, hunting, moonlight, and those of her brother, too: thievery, trickery, drow poisoners and poisons, drow males, and evil doings in the surface world. The death of Qilué Veladorn robbed her of some of her divine essence for a time (it leaked into the Weave, and only returned to her when Mystra herself recovered and could direct it back to its rightful home), but Eilistraee wasn’t slain, merely reduced to manifestations.

So from the end of 1375 to the summer of 1379, The Masked Lady has her “full” powers, and from late Flamerule of 1379 to the same month in 1489 DR, she is much reduced, being seen by mortals almost exclusively as her manifestation of a moving black mask outlined in a silver radiance and with two eyes of silver flame, that appears and silently guides (by pointing and touching and by imparting visions). After Flamerule 1489, Vhaeraun and Eilistraee are separate deities with the same powers and portfolios they had before 1375, but a new understanding, respect, and even friendship for each other. Some of their followers still war with each other, but the two deities do not. Thus far, Eilistraee’s teachings after the Sundering are the same as before the Sundering.


http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19841&whichpage=22#476639



Thanks Irennan. I don't know that Ed realized the openings he used with that wording, but its pumping ideas into me. Just to get them out, I'm going to bullet them, and please anyone feel free to shoot at them. Obviously, not everyone will like what I do, but some may find pieces that they want to use.

1) Auppenser is a god of psionics, but he's also got some control of dreams. Perhaps he absorbed the Finnish deity of sleep and dreams (Untamo) who had a temple in Medinat Muskawoon in the desert of desolation. Auppenser lived in Dweomerheart. Dweomerheart transitioned to Abeir. Mystra was waking up Auppenser prior to the spellplague, but even she didn't know WHY she was doing it. Auppenser would be a critical piece of restoring gods, since dream magic is a powerful thing in Abeir, and he could help anchor the weave to Abeir using it. Also, these entities were responsible for making sure that the "dawn titans" of Abeir continue to "sleep".

2) Cyric was "infected" by Leira in the form of the madness from the lies of the Cyrinishad. Thus, when he made his step to kill Mystra, Leira acted in the way which had been predicted to her by....

3) Savras predicted the spellplague. He informed Leira that she would have to fake her death. He informed Mystra that she would have to face Helm and temporarily have another occupy her position. He informed her via Azuth, who still held him in his staff.

4) Azuth escaped Dweomerheart and allowed himself to be taken over by another powerful entity because he was told he would have to in order to serve as an anchor back to Toril. It would be torture for him, but eventually he counted on the act that Mystra would feed him enough power that he would start to "overload" the being containing him and force a split again. (NOTE: this can use some work/help).

5) Mask, via Leira, was involved with these intrigues, for he hates Shar and sought to do anything in his power to prevent Shar destroying the world. He didn't directly work with the other gods of magic, but he DID directly work with other gods of similar ethos, and he did help enable Leira to fake her death and "ride" Cyric. To note here, Mask is one of the few gods of both the Faerunian and Mulhorandi pantheon. I see his role as being an acquirer and raider who helps the god find, steal, and restore gods via artifacts and information gathering via intrigues.

6) Deneir, as dweomerheart was tearing from Toril (and the weave with it), did "write" himself INTO the weave and thus was he carried along to Abeir to help bring knowledge and learning to the people of Toril brought to Abeir through transcribing books and helping restore the weave.

7) Velsharoon's Tower Terrible in Soorenar holds a phylactery that he used to become a god (its just one of Mellifleur's phylacteries, which Velsharoon "acquired" for his own use). When it goes to Abeir, Mellifleur is freed on Toril (and uses Velsharoon's name), and Velsharoon is trapped in his phylactery on Abeir. It takes the actions of mortals acting as avatars to free him. Velsharoon actually becomes a critical key link initially by using his powers over "life and death magic" to resurrect some deities in an "unliving" fashion. Thus, he helps restore some "death gods" like Kiaransalee, Ereshkigal, etc... with a requirement that they help restore other gods to help defend against the awakening of the dawn titans.

8) Cyric was "officially" taken by Tyr, Sune, and Lathander and punished by being entrapped in the Supreme Throne. I propose that, much like Karsus attacking Mystryl with the weave, Cyric attacking Midnight with the staff of Azuth caused a "conundrum". It was this that unanchored dweomerheart. I also propose that like Karsus, Cyric didn't survive this encounter unscathed. Maybe he was absorbed by the Staff of Azuth as Savras had been and someone else "occupied" his godly form. Maybe he was pushed to the Supreme Throne, where another entity took advantage of a foolish weakened god being and took him over (such as Valigan Thirdborn). Maybe Leira overwrote his mind. Some kind of story can be written, but essentially, I prefer he was the patsy of Shar, but also of the servants of Mystra as he failed to complete his mission properly.

Many similar types of things happened to bring Tyr, Helm, Lathander, Talos, the whole Mulhorandi pantheon, etc... who were "living" deities of Toril to Abeir.

The Ship of the Gods (as in the island in the Alamber sea) also went to Abeir. The Ship of the Gods is another thing that impacted from the sky into the face of Toril. It might be one of Selune's tears. It might be something else (comet, dead god "pulled" from the astral, etc...). Maybe its the "body" of the titan Prometheus (also had a temple in Medinat Muskawoon in the nearby desert of Raurin). Maybe it was one place that actually existed in both worlds at the same time UNTIL the spellplague. However, during the time of the spellplague, the primordials cannot approach it, and the "gods" are working through "lesser avatars".... as in mortals holding god's souls.... to acquire god related artifacts and bring them to the ship of the gods so that they may be "rebirthed" (and I use that term for a reason, as in some ways both Lathander and Prometheus have ties to "rebirth" and fire).

How does this tie in with Malyk, Vhaeraun, Zinzerena, etc... the ideas would be that these deities are "rebirthed" via dream magic, via artifacts brought to the isle of the gods, via avatars raiding Lolth's divine domain which may have transferred to Abeir (not her abyssal domain, her separate divine domain), etc... I'm very much picturing there being a storyline where a lot of gods are brought back on Abeir... and then subsequently die again protecting their mortal charges from uncaring Titans and power hungry dragons. In the case of Malyk, it may be that he's restored using the guardian's tear, and then he goes on to help restore Vhaeraun from the weave. Perhaps the two of them, with possibly help from Velsharoon and Leira, then restore Kiaransalee. Maybe these drow deities (Malyk, Vhaeraun, Kiaransalee… Maybe Eilistraee...) then raid Lolth's domain and try to free aspects of her like Zinzerena.

The exact storyline doesn't necessarily need to be nailed down, but suffice it to say, some of these drow deities may have been brought back, may have fought the dawn titans, and they may have died. They may have bequeathed their name/power onto another deity. Some selfish deities, such as Lolth, may have actually have killed some of them, or entrapped them in her realm, etc... This may very well be what happened to Vhaeraun, is perhaps in order to help others escape, he sacrificed his own freedom... a freedom that he "gave" to Malyk. Vhaeraun as such may be a "shell of his former self" now, and it could be a grand adventure for the followers of Malyk that they must weaken Lolth's hold by freeing him. Maybe Kiaransalee would seek to "find the tongue of Vhaeraun" which is an artifact and use it to "restore his voice".

As another odd storyline, in the transfer to Abeir, we have the Mulhorandi pantheon getting transferred. Bast/Sharess is amongst that pantheon, and she is actually the collective of numerous other gods, including an elven demipower of passionate love (Zandilar the Dancer) and Felidae the cat goddess. These separate entities might have all been reborn in Abeir as their own entities. Again, some of them may not have survived. However, its worth thinking about how their stories might be used for something other than backstory for a deity.
Gary Dallison Posted - 24 Jun 2020 : 22:02:46
I hope Steven's book is set pre spellplague.

Really interested to see what lore he's been hiding in his head for decades.
Irennan Posted - 24 Jun 2020 : 21:12:50
Those 2 books are TSR's, though. Mid 3e is when WotC started to decide that non-Drizzt, non-Lolth drow lore had to be underplayed, discarded, or trashed, because Drizzt wasn't "special enough".

So, WotC aren't truly drow-happy, they favor Lolth/Drizzt and will use them nonstop, but they really dislike Eilistraee and Vhaeraun. Whenever those 2 appear in the more recent sources, it's either for them to lose, or to get crapped on in the portrayal (or both in the case of Eilistraee).

In the beginning their beef was more with Eilistraee (hence why the incredible misportrayal in books 4-6 of WotSQ and LP, and why you get stuff like Athans including all the drow gods in his reader's guide to Drizzt, but pretending that Eilistraee doesn't exist). As soon as RAS decided that Drizzt needed to be an inspiration for drow males (more or less when the MToF was being written), they went afer Vhaeraun. They had already brought him back in 2015 with the SCAG, but that wouldn't stop them from completely ruining him in the MToF, by removing him as an advocate of male independence among the drow, so that Drizzt could be the one in that role. Eilistraee was also reduced to utter nonrelevance by stating that nearly no drow is even aware that she exists.
Wooly Rupert Posted - 24 Jun 2020 : 20:34:25
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

I suspect the only reason why WotC did that, is that RAS's narrative was pushing Drizzt as the inspiration and savior of the drow males back in 2017-2018, when the MToF was being written.

WotC has always shafted drow lore and the other drow factions in the name of "muh Drizzt", ever since mid 3e.



I'd say it goes back further -- I doubt we'd've had the first* Drow of the Underdark book or the Menzoberranzan boxed set without him. They've pretty much been drow-happy, "must cater to Drizzt fans!" since 2E -- to the point they almost published a non-RAS Drizzt novel, when he wouldn't play ball with them.


*Ye dancing gods, I hate WotC's habit of reusing sourcebook names!
Irennan Posted - 24 Jun 2020 : 20:08:05
I suspect the only reason why WotC did that, is that RAS's narrative was pushing Drizzt as the inspiration and savior of the drow males back in 2017-2018, when the MToF was being written.

WotC has always shafted drow lore and the other drow factions in the name of "muh Drizzt", ever since mid 3e.
Irennan Posted - 24 Jun 2020 : 19:55:15
Selvetarm's already there for that storyline. Even if WotC hadn't been ingoring LP ever since it was published, changing Vhaeraun like that is a bad development, worldbuilding-wise. Not only it sh*ts on his core concept, but brings redundancy, and makes the drow even more ridiculously one-note. Exploring a theoretical consequence of LP, Vhaeraun wouldn't have just been defeated, he would have become loyal, obedient, etc... He's even more passive than Selvetarm, who at least hates Lolth! Bsides, as I said, MToF presentes this as if it had always been the case.

The drow are already stupidly one note, it makes no sense for Lolth to be where she is (talk about exploring consequences, the consequences of Lolth having a completely idiotic, self-destructive society are never explored; everything goes back to how it was in the beginning whenever things go "wrong" for her. WoTSQ, for example, was a non-story). Vhaeraun's culture and opposition really didn't need to disappear in addition to that. As I said, WotC brought the hot situation they're in on themselves.

Re: Ed's quote, what follows is from Ed. Ofc, not even this is official. WotC is outright ignoring everything, as I said. They even retconned Eilistraee and Vhaeraun as Lolth's&Corellon's kids, and Selvetarm as Vhaeraun's son; claimed that drow souls just go poof after their death, etc...

quote:
[...]Mortals in the Realms can rarely know the doings and specifics of the gods with certainty, because clergies and even the gods themselves sometimes avoid the truth, or the whole truth, or slant what they say so much. So it is with the “deaths” of Eilistraee and Vhaeraun. Vhaeraun entered Eilistraee’s realm and sought to destroy her, but perished there by her hand, and she subsumed his portfolios—or so the story spread among drow. Most assumed that meant she became the drow deity of thievery, but in truth, Eilistraee (who pronounces her own name “AISLE-iss-try-ee,” by the way) defeated Vhaeraun with Mystra’s indirect aid [Mystra IS the Weave, and it was the Weave that frustrated and drank Vhaeraun’s magics, but augmented those of Eilistraee] but did not slay her brother. Rather, she trapped his sentience within the Weave, leaving him in an “endless dream” engineered by Mystra, who enfolded him. In this dream, Mystra slowly convinced Vhaeraun to cooperate in a pact with herself and Eilistraee so that they could all survive what was to come: the Sundering, wherein both Eilistraee and Mystra would be “slain,” magic would go wild, and the worlds of Abeir and Toril would pass through each other and then be sundered.

Eilistraee emerged from her battle with her brother as The Masked Lady, and fulfilled her own portfolios of song, beauty, dance, swordwork, hunting, moonlight, and those of her brother, too: thievery, trickery, drow poisoners and poisons, drow males, and evil doings in the surface world. The death of Qilué Veladorn robbed her of some of her divine essence for a time (it leaked into the Weave, and only returned to her when Mystra herself recovered and could direct it back to its rightful home), but Eilistraee wasn’t slain, merely reduced to manifestations.

So from the end of 1375 to the summer of 1379, The Masked Lady has her “full” powers, and from late Flamerule of 1379 to the same month in 1489 DR, she is much reduced, being seen by mortals almost exclusively as her manifestation of a moving black mask outlined in a silver radiance and with two eyes of silver flame, that appears and silently guides (by pointing and touching and by imparting visions). After Flamerule 1489, Vhaeraun and Eilistraee are separate deities with the same powers and portfolios they had before 1375, but a new understanding, respect, and even friendship for each other. Some of their followers still war with each other, but the two deities do not. Thus far, Eilistraee’s teachings after the Sundering are the same as before the Sundering.


http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19841&whichpage=22#476639
sleyvas Posted - 24 Jun 2020 : 19:42:18
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

WotC retconned the whole LP thing, so I don't think the MToF took that in account. Ed explained how things went in regard to Eilistraee and Vhaeraun; they didn't merge (even in the novels, it was arguable), but Eilistraee temporarily took Vhaeraun's portfolio, and Mystra helped her trap her brother's "soul" in a dream within the Weave. This was part of Mystra's plan to protect her allies, like Eilistraee, though it didn't go as well as planned because 1)when Qilué was killed, as Ed recently explained, she became a Weaveghost, and brought a large part of Eilistraee's&Vhaeraun's power to the Weave (since she was acting as a really powerful avatar of Eilistraee when that happened, and Eilistraee also held Vhaeraun's portfolio at the time). The Weave was then stranded with the Spellplague, therefore sealing that power for a century, leaving Vhaeraun trapped, and Eilistraee powerless. After Mystra recovered and the Weave was restored, she gave Eilistraee and Vhaeraun their own power back. So it's not a clone as much as Vhaeraun awakening and regaining his old power.

I wouldn't say that MToF does really paint Vhaeraun as being bullied; it describes him as "what a drow male should be"--swift, deadly, obedient, and it implies--as you quote--that the origins of his mask is that he's been reduced into submission by Lolth. Which is clearly BS and a retcon, because he's been masked for a FAR longer time.

I do mind the new direction for Vhaeraun, A LOT. First, because it sh*ts on the core concept of his character and associates him with stuff that is totally antithetical to him, much like LP did with Eilistraee. Second, because the drow are SUPER dated worldbuilding, definitely not up to the modern standards. They lack nuance, their concept falls apart once you start asking yourself questions that do as much as scratching the surface. And they lend themselves to problematic interpretations and messages. Making them EVEN more one note was, in all honestly, a braindead move. MToF surely contributied to corner WotC in the situation they're now.

Seriously, they could have portrayed a loosely allied front with Eilistraee (who gained the portfolio of freedom), Vhaeraun, Malyk (with his appealing to mages, and having the protfolio of rebellion) and Zinzerena, which would have been a good opposition to Lolth, and not "LOL, only <1% follow anything other than Lolth, and we call that a nuanced race", but hey, WotC still very much was in the "b-but muh Drizzt..." camp. They totally invited the flak they're catching.

I do like your theory that links Malyk to Mystra, though. Since Ed explained in Silverfall how Mystra is interested in helping all magical creatures prosper (including drow, and Lolth only makes them wither, so it's natural for Mystra to oppose her--even more after Lolth mindlessly tried to steal the Weave and failed miserably), this probably exlains the reason of her alliance with Eilistraee (aside from Qilué), the fact that Msytra is sharing the Weave with Eilistraee (among others) post-Sundering, and the help that she gave to Vhaeraun. With that already in place, I could easily see her being tied to Malyk's re-emergence.



My take on him is mainly IF we're going to say that the previous events happened, and now he's facing repercussions. It opens up to a storyline in which he can be taken out from under Lolth's thumb.

Do you by chance have that actual quote from Ed about Vhaeraun and being sucked into a dream in the weave? I'm especially interested in the wording, because one of the big things I've been playing with is the idea that while in Abeir a lot o these gods were brought back via some version of dream magic, often in combination with artifacts related to those gods that might have "gone to Abeir". I'm picturing Auppenser (and Nanna-Sin's wife Ningal, and a "dead" god named Untamo found in the Desert of Desolation) as having ties to dreams, and possibly being critical in a lot of these gods returning.
Irennan Posted - 24 Jun 2020 : 16:57:37
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind

I've learned to never mind retcons when they deal with myths that much. But I guess more lore on the miyeritari elves, such as descriptions of ruined temples to Eilistraee, ancient spells and their 'high magic after effects', enchanted blades and arrows lost in a High Hunt and lost songs of starlit promenades would provide ample material to expand our understanding of Eilistraee future.

I'd be disappointed if WotC decided to drop Eilistraee lore to the side.



Btw, the retcons are not only about myths, they are who Vhaeraun is, what he stands for, what his followers do. Same as LP tried to do with Eilistraee. It's not some fantastic tale of events past, it's about solid and important elements in-setting.
Wooly Rupert Posted - 24 Jun 2020 : 16:45:31
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind

I've learned to never mind retcons when they deal with myths that much. But I guess more lore on the miyeritari elves, such as descriptions of ruined temples to Eilistraee, ancient spells and their 'high magic after effects', enchanted blades and arrows lost in a High Hunt and lost songs of starlit promenades would provide ample material to expand our understanding of Eilistraee future.

I'd be disappointed if WotC decided to drop Eilistraee lore to the side.



They're pretty much dropping all lore to the side, unless there is a specific need to reference it in their newest adventure -- and even then, they feel no obligation to stick to prior lore.
Irennan Posted - 24 Jun 2020 : 16:42:45
They've already done that, when Athans/Smedman were greenlit to crap all over her character and faith with a grossly smearing and false portrayal, that depicted her culture as a weird caricature of Lolth's (and that's telling a lot) with a facade of goodness. They're continuing now in 5e, when even with her re-emergence, she's described as a loser who will never get anything done (also, her followers just disappear after dying now, and no one knows what happens to them. LOL). She's barely mentioned in books like the SCAG, MToF, and 2 of Ed's novels, but the main portrayal of the drow is like she is nothing. It's impossible to do worse than that, because they're already ignoring her. If anything, dramatically increasing the size of her culture, having new Eilistraean settlements Miyeritar-style, would be a good *first step* towards making the drow more nuanced (and only a first step). But they ultimately are only after Drizzt, so I fear they'll just have Drizzt&co use some shenanigans and magically convince half of the drow to forget Lolth (maybe they will even use talk-no-jutsu, to make things even more laughable) so that Drizzt-land will actually be a thing even in-universe.
Bladewind Posted - 24 Jun 2020 : 15:45:57
I've learned to never mind retcons when they deal with myths that much. But I guess more lore on the miyeritari elves, such as descriptions of ruined temples to Eilistraee, ancient spells and their 'high magic after effects', enchanted blades and arrows lost in a High Hunt and lost songs of starlit promenades would provide ample material to expand our understanding of Eilistraee future.

I'd be disappointed if WotC decided to drop Eilistraee lore to the side.
Irennan Posted - 24 Jun 2020 : 15:37:50
Selvetarm is still in the picture. He's the god of drow warriors, and a bloodthirsty, frenzied deity. Also, Lolth's watchdog as always. Vhaeraun just joined him. Stupid, really...
Wooly Rupert Posted - 24 Jun 2020 : 15:30:35
Yeah, I'm not liking this new spin on Vhaeraun, either... His independence from and opposition to Lolth was what made him interesting, and it gave the drow some nice options.

Does this book address why Selvetarm is no longer in the picture?

Mayhaps its just me, but "Malyk" just doesn't sound like a drow name.
Irennan Posted - 24 Jun 2020 : 15:25:28
WotC retconned the whole LP thing, so I don't think the MToF took that in account. Ed explained how things went in regard to Eilistraee and Vhaeraun; they didn't merge (even in the novels, it was arguable), but Eilistraee temporarily took Vhaeraun's portfolio, and Mystra helped her trap her brother's "soul" in a dream within the Weave. This was part of Mystra's plan to protect her allies, like Eilistraee, though it didn't go as well as planned because 1)when Qilué was killed, as Ed recently explained, she became a Weaveghost, and brought a large part of Eilistraee's&Vhaeraun's power to the Weave (since she was acting as a really powerful avatar of Eilistraee when that happened, and Eilistraee also held Vhaeraun's portfolio at the time). The Weave was then stranded with the Spellplague, therefore sealing that power for a century, leaving Vhaeraun trapped, and Eilistraee powerless. After Mystra recovered and the Weave was restored, she gave Eilistraee and Vhaeraun their own power back. So it's not a clone as much as Vhaeraun awakening and regaining his old power.

I wouldn't say that MToF does really paint Vhaeraun as being bullied; it describes him as "what a drow male should be"--swift, deadly, obedient, and it implies--as you quote--that the origins of his mask is that he's been reduced into submission by Lolth. Which is clearly BS and a retcon, because he's been masked for a FAR longer time.

I do mind the new direction for Vhaeraun, A LOT. First, because it sh*ts on the core concept of his character and associates him with stuff that is totally antithetical to him, much like LP did with Eilistraee. Second, because the drow are SUPER dated worldbuilding, definitely not up to the modern standards. They lack nuance, their concept falls apart once you start asking yourself questions that do as much as scratching the surface. And they lend themselves to problematic interpretations and messages. Making them EVEN more one note was, in all honestly, a braindead move. MToF surely contributied to corner WotC in the situation they're now.

Seriously, they could have portrayed a loosely allied front with Eilistraee (who gained the portfolio of freedom), Vhaeraun, Malyk (with his appealing to mages, and having the protfolio of rebellion) and Zinzerena, which would have been a good opposition to Lolth, and not "LOL, only <1% follow anything other than Lolth, and we call that a nuanced race", but hey, WotC still very much was in the "b-but muh Drizzt..." camp. They totally invited the flak they're catching.

I do like your theory that links Malyk to Mystra, though. Since Ed explained in Silverfall how Mystra is interested in helping all magical creatures prosper (including drow, and Lolth only makes them wither, so it's natural for Mystra to oppose her--even more after Lolth mindlessly tried to steal the Weave and failed miserably), this probably exlains the reason of her alliance with Eilistraee (aside from Qilué), the fact that Msytra is sharing the Weave with Eilistraee (among others) post-Sundering, and the help that she gave to Vhaeraun. With that already in place, I could easily see her being tied to Malyk's re-emergence.
sleyvas Posted - 24 Jun 2020 : 14:57:02
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Irennan



As for change in Lolthite society, AFAIK the 4e version is exactly the same as the 3e one, so is the 5e one (with the exception that in 5e Zinzerena and Malyk are there sowing chaos and intrigues against Lolth too--Zinzererna has returned and is CN--while Vhaeraun has been retconned into Lolth's bodyguard, and Eilistraee is just her usual self, just downplayed even more than she already was).


Vhaeraun is Lolth's bodyguard? What happened to Selvetarm, and given how against Lolth Vhaeraun is, why would he bodyguard her?



Its somewhat portrayed as he's been bullied into the role (which I'm fine with mind you, but I'm thinking might get retroactively rewritten even though its relatively new info). In some respects, I'll give them props for this. At least things got changed to reflect that he challenged Lolth and is somehow suffering for it. He is separate from Eilistraee again, so either somehow she did separate him out OR this Vhaeraun is not THE son that she had. One could almost buy an argument that this is metaphysically the equivalent of a clone of Vhaeraun whose "soul" has been clawed back into a body, ritually maimed to warn it against ever doing something similar like "his last incarnation did" but kept in place to give drow rogues someone to worship.

What I'm seeing though is that they've placed the role Vhaeraun had on Malyk. I will add that this can work for me as well, as I plan on having Malyk taking a role very much similar to Velsharoon in service to Mystra. From canon lore, Malyk is a dark elf who was raised up (like Velsharoon) by the aid of Talos, as the god of wild and destructive magic, but unlike Velsharoon he was then absorbed by Talos. I would use some twisted storyline in which Talos' disappearance had him in Abeir, and that his return was in part because Malyk was returned (as in bringing Talos back was a necessary evil). This would involve the tear of Helm (an artifact known from VGtatM as the Guardian's Tear and the rock of blue fire), which was shed at the death of Mystra and portrayed the epice battle between the two gods. To note, all of these gods (Helm, Mystra, Talos, Malyk) are all gone during the spellplague and now all are back, and according to MToF the symbol of Malyk is a "a flame in a tear or a multihued vortex".

In this role, I can see Mystra having multiple servant deities, and not all of them good. Leira, Velsharoon, Malyk, etc... all likely are servitor deities of Mystra. That being said, I also use the term servitor loosely. I think many deities who serve her may serve multiple gods and she may not have direct control of them (for instance, Deneir serves Oghma, the Red Knight serves Tempus, but both are servitors of the goddess of magic as well). Think of service to Mystra as joining a private organization outside of your job. You get some benefits, you do what you can without it impacting your main responsibilities, and in return maybe your "boss" is a little more understanding that you may have other interests than pushing their goals.

Below from Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes about Vhaeraun
Due to his high status in the Dark Seldarine (for a male} and because of his arrogance, a few of his worshipers look on him as an advocate of equality between male and female drow. That heresy, when it is expressed openly. is liable to be savagely crushed by the priestesses of Lolth. So most of Vhaeraun's male followers honor him simply by trying to carve out better lives for themselves, and that activity is tolerated. Even so, adherents of Vhaeraun don't appear in public without wearing masks. This practice exists in part because Vhaeraun is never portrayed unmasked, and partly because anonymity is a wise precaution when one challenges the social structure of the drow in even a small way.

To quash any challenge to the matriarchy that Vhaeraun might inspire in his followers, some drow communities preach that he wears a mask to hide the terrible scars from the wounds inflicted on him by Lolth as punishment for his arrogance. His silence, too, is part of his punishment, for his tongue was removed for questioning Lolth's orders. Worshipers of Vhaeraun who believe this dogma sometimes ritually scar and silence themselves as signs of their devotion, and then serve as voiceless, masked bodyguards for the matrons of their house.
Irennan Posted - 24 Jun 2020 : 14:46:17
He's Lolth's bodyguard too. Lolth has 2 bodyguards in 5e.
Wooly Rupert Posted - 24 Jun 2020 : 00:23:50
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan



As for change in Lolthite society, AFAIK the 4e version is exactly the same as the 3e one, so is the 5e one (with the exception that in 5e Zinzerena and Malyk are there sowing chaos and intrigues against Lolth too--Zinzererna has returned and is CN--while Vhaeraun has been retconned into Lolth's bodyguard, and Eilistraee is just her usual self, just downplayed even more than she already was).


Vhaeraun is Lolth's bodyguard? What happened to Selvetarm, and given how against Lolth Vhaeraun is, why would he bodyguard her?
Irennan Posted - 23 Jun 2020 : 21:03:18
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

The Dark Elves were less than a blip on the radar. Setting aside the fact that they never made any sense for Eilistraee--that the very concept of race-changing the drow was antithetical to Eilistraee and all she stands for--according to the novel itself, only a few hundreds were transformed. This means that, even among Eilistraee's followers (a few thousands, being her a lesser goddess), only a minority was transformed--and into something that is hardly different from a wood elf.

So, the ones who were changed either remained with their fellow Eilistraean drow (and drow + elf most likely give birth to a drow, which means that they never made any noticeable difference setting-wise), or went off to mix with humans and elves (which would be the same as some wood elves moving in, so nothing relevant), or died in the Underdark. In any case, their impact would be next to 0. And I mean, they were just drow with a lighter skin, there was no big deal there. Eilistraee has never been interested in doing something like this (on the contrary, she embraced being drow, and became one of her people), so she's not creating other of them as of her re-emergence. This was the result of the will of the spirit in that Kiira, only affected those of pure Miyeritari descent (not mixed with Ilythiir, who were but a few hundreds, as stated in the novels), and stopped there.

In hindsight, it was obvious that that they would be ignored; WotC was only trying to get rid of Eilistraee and her followers, so that they wouldn't have to touch them ever more, and the way they did it--"goodness is but a shade lighter"--was something that should have never seen the light of the day in 2008.


-Agreed, only a small, weirdly defined group would have been affected (worshipers of Eilistraee and those not somehow tainted by Wendonai's curse if I remember correctly), but it could have very easily been used as the explanation for all of the random changes that just inexplicably occurred to the Drow/Drow society during the 3e/4e transition, and even the 4e/5e transition (which I was not around for, so I'm much less familiar with what was going on). Like "Oops, this Matron Mother randomly transformed and lost all of her Drow powers and it caused some massive upheaval in [insert city they just randomly changed without explanation]". Just another missed opportunity.



Not even all Eilistraee's followers. The transformed ones were stated to be a few hundreds by those angels, which is a minority even among the Eilistraeans--in fact, Eilistraee and her people are still drow now that she has returned (or simply re-emerged going by Ed's lore).

As for change in Lolthite society, AFAIK the 4e version is exactly the same as the 3e one, so is the 5e one (with the exception that in 5e Zinzerena and Malyk are there sowing chaos and intrigues against Lolth too--Zinzererna has returned and is CN--while Vhaeraun has been retconned into Lolth's bodyguard, and Eilistraee is just her usual self, just downplayed even more than she already was).

The only change I can recall from 4e is Quenthel killing Triel and some rearrangements in the houses tier in Menzo, but I don't think that would have needed explanation beyond internal conflicts.
sleyvas Posted - 23 Jun 2020 : 20:33:11
Just curious, the lack of any involvement of the city with the realms since the end of Blackstaff, are you going to be playing that off into the spellplague and having it also get thrown to the Feywild or something? Maybe its just returned, like Evermeet, and thus the name of this thread of Rhymanthiin Returned (kind of like Returned Abeir for Laerakond)?
Lord Karsus Posted - 23 Jun 2020 : 20:31:33
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

The Dark Elves were less than a blip on the radar. Setting aside the fact that they never made any sense for Eilistraee--that the very concept of race-changing the drow was antithetical to Eilistraee and all she stands for--according to the novel itself, only a few hundreds were transformed. This means that, even among Eilistraee's followers (a few thousands, being her a lesser goddess), only a minority was transformed--and into something that is hardly different from a wood elf.

So, the ones who were changed either remained with their fellow Eilistraean drow (and drow + elf most likely give birth to a drow, which means that they never made any noticeable difference setting-wise), or went off to mix with humans and elves (which would be the same as some wood elves moving in, so nothing relevant), or died in the Underdark. In any case, their impact would be next to 0. And I mean, they were just drow with a lighter skin, there was no big deal there. Eilistraee has never been interested in doing something like this (on the contrary, she embraced being drow, and became one of her people), so she's not creating other of them as of her re-emergence. This was the result of the will of the spirit in that Kiira, only affected those of pure Miyeritari descent (not mixed with Ilythiir, who were but a few hundreds, as stated in the novels), and stopped there.

In hindsight, it was obvious that that they would be ignored; WotC was only trying to get rid of Eilistraee and her followers, so that they wouldn't have to touch them ever more, and the way they did it--"goodness is but a shade lighter"--was something that should have never seen the light of the day in 2008.


-Agreed, only a small, weirdly defined group would have been affected (worshipers of Eilistraee and those not somehow tainted by Wendonai's curse if I remember correctly), but it could have very easily been used as the explanation for all of the random changes that just inexplicably occurred to the Drow/Drow society during the 3e/4e transition, and even the 4e/5e transition (which I was not around for, so I'm much less familiar with what was going on). Like "Oops, this Matron Mother randomly transformed and lost all of her Drow powers and it caused some massive upheaval in [insert city they just randomly changed without explanation]". Just another missed opportunity.
Lord Karsus Posted - 23 Jun 2020 : 20:23:00
quote:
Originally posted by Theodore

It makes perfect sense to me that nothing was done with it not that I agree with it mind you. It's the same reason we don't get novels anymore. Hasbro is a gaming company and they don't care about the novels. They didn't turn enough of a profit from us as readers for it to matter.

I say this as someone that bought the books hard cover and paper back and now i own them digital. A lot of our favorite authors have told us on these very forums sometimes they sold just enough to cover the advance. So I don't like it but I get it. So I'm thankful we can at least still get source books via DM's guild.


-I'm talking like 10 years ago. Blackstaff came out in mid-late 2006 and about a year later 4e was announced. We didn't know how drastically they'd change things, but with the vagueness of the FRCG and how seemingly important the events of the book were, it seemed ripe to be picked back up in a novel or web enhancement, or something. Just (weirdly, in my opinion) never was.
Irennan Posted - 23 Jun 2020 : 12:50:47
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

-I am honestly very surprised that literally nothing has been done with the city in the 15+ years/two editions since Blackstaff. Given when it was created, it always felt to me like there were giant flashing neon arrows pointing down on it basically shouting out "This place is gonna be important in future novel/sourcebook/adventure/web article/whatever" and then...nothing. But, the same can be said about other stuff from that point in time that seemed important but had no actual follow up, like the Dark Elves, so I guess not.



The Dark Elves were less than a blip on the radar. Setting aside the fact that they never made any sense for Eilistraee--that the very concept of race-changing the drow was antithetical to Eilistraee and all she stands for--according to the novel itself, only a few hundreds were transformed. This means that, even among Eilistraee's followers (a few thousands, being her a lesser goddess), only a minority was transformed--and into something that is hardly different from a wood elf.

So, the ones who were changed either remained with their fellow Eilistraean drow (and drow + elf most likely give birth to a drow, which means that they never made any noticeable difference setting-wise), or went off to mix with humans and elves (which would be the same as some wood elves moving in, so nothing relevant), or died in the Underdark. In any case, their impact would be next to 0. And I mean, they were just drow with a lighter skin, there was no big deal there. Eilistraee has never been interested in doing something like this (on the contrary, she embraced being drow, and became one of her people), so she's not creating other of them as of her re-emergence. This was the result of the will of the spirit in that Kiira, only affected those of pure Miyeritari descent (not mixed with Ilythiir, who were but a few hundreds, as stated in the novels), and stopped there.

In hindsight, it was obvious that that they would be ignored; WotC was only trying to get rid of Eilistraee and her followers, so that they wouldn't have to touch them ever more, and the way they did it--"goodness is but a shade lighter"--was something that should have never seen the light of the day in 2008.
Theodore Posted - 23 Jun 2020 : 02:27:43
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

-I am honestly very surprised that literally nothing has been done with the city in the 15+ years/two editions since Blackstaff. Given when it was created, it always felt to me like there were giant flashing neon arrows pointing down on it basically shouting out "This place is gonna be important in future novel/sourcebook/adventure/web article/whatever" and then...nothing. But, the same can be said about other stuff from that point in time that seemed important but had no actual follow up, like the Dark Elves, so I guess not.



It makes perfect sense to me that nothing was done with it not that I agree with it mind you. It's the same reason we don't get novels anymore. Hasbro is a gaming company and they don't care about the novels. They didn't turn enough of a profit from us as readers for it to matter.

I say this as someone that bought the books hard cover and paper back and now i own them digital. A lot of our favorite authors have told us on these very forums sometimes they sold just enough to cover the advance. So I don't like it but I get it. So I'm thankful we can at least still get source books via DM's guild.
Lord Karsus Posted - 23 Jun 2020 : 00:58:38
-I am honestly very surprised that literally nothing has been done with the city in the 15+ years/two editions since Blackstaff. Given when it was created, it always felt to me like there were giant flashing neon arrows pointing down on it basically shouting out "This place is gonna be important in future novel/sourcebook/adventure/web article/whatever" and then...nothing. But, the same can be said about other stuff from that point in time that seemed important but had no actual follow up, like the Dark Elves, so I guess not.

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