| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Icelander |
Posted - 12 Oct 2019 : 11:50:03
I'm wondering what kind of food, treats and delicacies would be remaining in the stores of a large band of adventurers about a week out of King's Reach and about 15 days out of Ravens Bluff. It's late Mirtul in 1373 DR, the Year of Rogue Dragons.
The PCs bought plenty of travelling rations in Ravens Bluff, as well as fresh food that they intended to eat the first days of the trip. In King's Reach, they added to their stores of fresh food. They are well-funded* and have a Bag of Holding that can store 1,500 lbs. available, as well as a baggage train of a dozen mules, six ponies and six light wagons.**
I haven't established exactly what their purchases bought them, beyond food to make them and their retinue as healthy and happy as possible, but roleplaying the preparation and, later, the eating of a feast on a road now makes it desirable I decide on the variety of foodstuffs on offer in greater detail.
My main issue is that I have a very limited grasp of the availability of various foodstuffs common in our world in the Vast and, even for those I determine to be available, I have no idea what kind of shelf life various tasty treats have without artificial preservatives, airtight containers or refrigeration.
The Realms are not medieval Europe, but they are not the modern West either, so neither historical research nor personal familiarity are much help. And while I've made notes of the foodstuffs explicitly mentioned in The City of Ravens Bluff, the best supplement for the area, any sourcebook can by its very nature only touch lightly on the surface of what a given culture and region is like. Basically, very few foodstuffs are mentioned and I'd like to know more about what kinds are available, common and practical.
In medieval Europe, all sorts of things that I think of as basic foodstuffs and/or flavorings just didn't exist***, e.g. corn (maize), tomatoes, green beans (pretty much all common beans, really), potatoes, chilies, cranberries, vanilla and chocolate. Also, in medieval Europe, without access to the cheap sugarcane from the New World, pure sugar as an ingredient in other food (as opposed to foods with sugar content) was infinitely rarer and more expensive.
In Ed's original Realms, there were certainly potatoes and the New World-Old World split of crops does not seem to have been a feature of the world as originally envisioned. However, the introduction of Maztica by TSR appears to have introduced the idea of chilies, chocolates, vanilla and possibly all kinds of other foodstuffs being canonically exclusively Maztican imports to Faerun. The result of which is that I am never sure whether a given fruit or vegetable which in the real world is a New World crop is native to somewhere in the Realms or not.
Added to which, there are certainly climactic considerations for where plants can grow and where they will flourish best, even in a fantasy world. It's absolutely canon that some fruits only grow in southerly regions of the Realms and so forth. So, when called upon to answer a player's question of whether he can buy a pear or a plum at market, in the absence of a canonical statement in a sourcebook, novel or by an author online about that fruit, the GM has to have some idea of how the climate of where the PCs are compares to the climate of some real-world ecological system.
Going by geography, rough position on a world map and descriptions in sourcebooks, I tend to feel like the weather and terrain of the Vast might be similar to the Balkans for the southern parts of it, such as Ravens Bluff and especially Procampur and Tsurlagol, and Central Europe (e.g. Austria, Czech Republic, Hungary and Slovakia) for the northern parts of the Vast, such as King's Reach and environs.
What does this mean for regional crops, cuisine and delicacies?
What are especially good foodstuffs that last about a week when carried in a Bag of Holding?
Most normal bread goes stale when stored that long, but on Earth, there are many regional methods used to bake bread that lasts longer. Ship's biscuit, most types of rye bread, pumpernickel bread, most types of sourdough bread, etc.
Which types of longer-lasting bread are popular in the Vast?
What desserts and sweet treats might people in the Vast make that could last a week or longer?
What are the fruits and berries that are in season in the Vast during spring and early summer?
*As in, merchant princes and nobility.
**Mostly empty on the way out, intended to carry treasure back.
***Because they are native to the New World, with which there was no trade or cultivar exchange until the era to which the 'medieval' descriptor can properly be applied had ended. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Icelander |
Posted - 31 Oct 2019 : 13:10:29
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Yes.
-- George Krashos
I'd ask if they eat them roasted or raw, but I suspect I'd receive the same answer. 
I have my southern Vast (from the Earthfast Mountains) orcs eating the heart of defeated foes whose courage they admire. Whether or not that is a custom shared by orcs in the central or northern Vast (Earthspurs or the lowlands) hasn't come up.
Of course, it's canonical that Grimmerfang spit-roasted and ate the last of his challengers for the title of Overking of Vastar, which is why I assigned ritual cannibalism to Vastar orc culture. It's also a lot more interesting if the orcs have cultural and ritualistic reasons for wanting to eat sapient meat, meaning that even sympathetic orcish characters might engage in the practice and defend it to outsiders.
My gray orcs in the Vast are meant to have a much more complex civilization than typical mountain orcs, as even if Vastar is long fallen, they still retain aspects of that cultural heritage. They are warlike, worship harsh gods and have the values of raiders and conquerors, but they are not merely culturally impoverished savages.
The gray orcs the PCs travel with cook and appear to have a robust cuisine of their own, most of which is perfectly palatable to humans living in the same general area, with most of the same incredients plentiful. Granted, the orcs can eat all sorts of things humans can't (or won't), but I imagine that the orcs prefer high-quality foodstuffs over scraps and various sources of nutrients found in caverns, even if the latter are eaten in lean times. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 31 Oct 2019 : 10:52:30
Yes.
-- George Krashos |
| Icelander |
Posted - 31 Oct 2019 : 08:22:41
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I have the hobgoblins of the Giantspires eating sapients.
-- George Krashos
Ceremonially or as a matter of culinary preference? |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 31 Oct 2019 : 04:15:51
I have the hobgoblins of the Giantspires eating sapients.
-- George Krashos |
| Icelander |
Posted - 31 Oct 2019 : 02:22:33
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I bet gorgon burgers are great for cases of diarrhea. Otherwise they may cause constipation.
I do kind of wonder if the claw meat of giant scorpions might not be a delicacy (wonder if they'll regenerate claws like crabs... apparently some scorpions do in our world though its rare)…. not necessarily in the vast mind you.
Many monsters are toxic or otherwise dangerous to eat, but in general, the more they resemble giant versions of ordinary animals, the more likely they are to be edible.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I can definitely see roasted axebeak with its decorative feathers as a centerpieces in some places.
I'm sure axebeaks and other massive, flightless birds can be found somewhere on Toril, but is there anything canonical that suggests they are found in the Heartlands or anywhere around the Sea of Fallen Stars?
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I can definitely see the hobgoblins and orcs of the vast region having some rather interesting recipes involving spitting and cooking intelligent species.
From Ed Greenwood's replies and passages in Elminster's Ecologies, orcs and hobgoblins generally prefer wild game or livestock to intelligent species. Eating sapients is something some tribes do, of course, and in times of famine most goblinoids and orcs would probably eat nearly anything, but those who eat people by choice seem to be in a minority. Goblins seem more likely to eat sapient flesh than orcs, from what I recall in various Realms sources.
Of course, there are probably orc shamans who preach unending warfare and the eating of slain foes for religious reasons, but these are not exactly typical orcs.
Certainly, the way I present gray orcs from the Vast in my campaign, humans are not a regular feature of their diet. However, the ceremonial eating of a formidable foe slain in battle or an honoured forefather is very much a part of their culture, but that is done for cultural and religious reasons, in order to absorb the power of the person eaten.
Indiscriminate eating of sapient flesh is considered vulgar by my Vastar orcs, the mark of primitive goblinkin or stupid ogres. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 23 Oct 2019 : 17:15:14
quote:
Originally posted by BadLuckBugbear
RE natural evolution, age of Abeir-Toril, etc.
I figure evolutionary changes do happen but the timescale only allows for micro-evolution. Many types of beings were created ( meaning created swiftly, rather than creation through slow evolutionary processes) by the gods or Creator Races, and within those types, adaptations and variations related to the environment have occurred. The Creator Races created new types and races from old ur-types (that much is canon, yes?).
Yes, that last is canon and I agree with what conclusions you draw.
quote:
Originally posted by BadLuckBugbear
My guess is that there have been three ages of creation, or great waves of overlapping generative activity: Primordials, early deities, and then Creator Races. I imagine the planet and the whole crystal sphere and solar system is maybe 100K years old.
I don't know about this whole Primordial thing, it seems like a typical 4e addition (ill-thought out and hard to reconcile with existing canon).
I prefer to think that Selune and Shar are the oldest beings in existence, with Mystryl following closely behind. Anything else, deity or Primordial, comes later. And I definitely consider Selune and Shar deities, not anything else.
As for the age of the Realms, I really don't have much of an idea. It's entirely possible for the time of Selune and Shar to have been billions of years (or to have existed out of time) and the world under the Fist Sun might have existed for a lot longer than the current Realms.
quote:
Originally posted by BadLuckBugbear
But of course this is all speculative. And it ought to remain so as far as canon goes, I think. Creation and the deepest part of prehistory are mysteries best left up to DMs, if they come up at all outside the in-game mythologies of various cultures and the speculations or sages.
Agreed.
---
We... we were talking about crops, foodstuffs and cuisine in the Vast? |
| BadLuckBugbear |
Posted - 21 Oct 2019 : 01:48:56
RE natural evolution, age of Abeir-Toril, etc.
I figure evolutionary changes do happen but the timescale only allows for micro-evolution. Many types of beings were created ( meaning created swiftly, rather than creation through slow evolutionary processes) by the gods or Creator Races, and within those types, adaptations and variations related to the environment have occurred. The Creator Races created new types and races from old ur-types (that much is canon, yes?).
My guess is that there have been three ages of creation, or great waves of overlapping generative activity: Primordials, early deities, and then Creator Races. I imagine the planet and the whole crystal sphere and solar system is maybe 100K years old.
But of course this is all speculative. And it ought to remain so as far as canon goes, I think. Creation and the deepest part of prehistory are mysteries best left up to DMs, if they come up at all outside the in-game mythologies of various cultures and the speculations or sages.
|
| Icelander |
Posted - 21 Oct 2019 : 01:26:40
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
Does it? Separation of Evermeet (and all those island chains) and Faerun is not the same as separation of Maztica and Faerun.
It was just "pull a big island away", which already implies there was an ocean, no?
As per the Grand History of the Realms, the great Ice Age ended approximately -35,000 DR. At that time, Faerûn was joined with Kara-Tur, Maztica, and Zakhara as part of the super-continent Merrouroboros.
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
It may be a normal part of garden greens in some area, but it's not the same as everywhere. Which applies to all plants someone eats, since they have many natural limitations. More so without many things pushing said limitations, like large scale irrigation, greenhouses with artificial illumination to take care of seedlings before they can survive outside, etc.
And my point is, since we don't know areas where this or that crop or vegetable grows, we don't have enough to even meaningfully speculate about differences between it being grown e.g. "since before the King-Killer", "since Imaskari exodus" or "since Netherese exodus", only note there are many different possibilities.
From using the search function on what Realms sourcebook I have on PDF and flipping through physical copies, searching for mentions of 'tomatoes', the balance of evidence seems to suggest that they are a common foodstuff, part of the regular fare of cheaper inns and taverns, in places as widely seperated as Waterdeep, Luiren and Ravens Bluff.
As tomatoes would most likely be much more expensive if imported to Ravens Bluff (they are cheap enough for a dive bar to offer tomato and onions on the side as a popular sauce/salad), I'm comfortable assuming tomatoes are grown near Ravens Bluff. This means that they are very likely to grow elsewhere in the Vast, at least anywhere where the climate isn't harsher.
They may not grow as easily near King's Reach, but, then again, greenhouses are Roman era technology and King's Reach is a very affluent mining community, so if there is any demand for tomatoes there, they could easily be grown locally. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 20 Oct 2019 : 16:36:44
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Yeah, but noone's yet asked the question..... does fried cockatrice taste like chicken?
The roasted cockatrice recipie on p. 151 of Volo's Guide to Waterdeep certainly seems suitable for chicken and Ed Greenwood notes that when he tries out recipies, he substitutes real world materials for things like cockatrice, which I assume means he uses chicken.
I bet gorgon burgers are great for cases of diarrhea. Otherwise they may cause constipation.
I do kind of wonder if the claw meat of giant scorpions might not be a delicacy (wonder if they'll regenerate claws like crabs... apparently some scorpions do in our world though its rare)…. not necessarily in the vast mind you.
I can definitely see roasted axebeak with its decorative feathers as a centerpieces in some places.
I can definitely see the hobgoblins and orcs of the vast region having some rather interesting recipes involving spitting and cooking intelligent species. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 20 Oct 2019 : 16:15:50
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
On Toril, the separation of Maztica and Faerun dates back only just over thirty millennia.
Does it? Separation of Evermeet (and all those island chains) and Faerun is not the same as separation of Maztica and Faerun.
It was just "pull a big island away", which already implies there was an ocean, no?
quote:
So, barring magic or intelligent design, we shouldn't really expect Toril to have different flora and fauna in the different continents that were actually connected only a geological and evolutionary biological blink of an eye ago.
Species seem to mostly propagate via import by gods and wizards of the stuff they liked, yes.
quote:
Well, tomatoes might be a regional thing, but Ed Greenwood seems to suggest that they are a normal part of garden greens in the Realms, often being sold by haflings to humans wherever they live.
It may be a normal part of garden greens in some area, but it's not the same as everywhere. Which applies to all plants someone eats, since they have many natural limitations. More so without many things pushing said limitations, like large scale irrigation, greenhouses with artificial illumination to take care of seedlings before they can survive outside, etc.
And my point is, since we don't know areas where this or that crop or vegetable grows, we don't have enough to even meaningfully speculate about differences between it being grown e.g. "since before the King-Killer", "since Imaskari exodus" or "since Netherese exodus", only note there are many different possibilities. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 20 Oct 2019 : 14:39:47
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Yeah, but noone's yet asked the question..... does fried cockatrice taste like chicken?
The roasted cockatrice recipie on p. 151 of Volo's Guide to Waterdeep certainly seems suitable for chicken and Ed Greenwood notes that when he tries out recipies, he substitutes real world materials for things like cockatrice, which I assume means he uses chicken. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 20 Oct 2019 : 00:50:20
quote:
Originally posted by BadLuckBugbear
Does 'normal, biological evolution' have anything much to do with Toril?
Or most D&d settings?
Does it even occur at all?
Does it occur at a greatly accelerated rate?
It's an interesting question.
As far as I know, physics, natural laws and biological processes work the same in all worlds of the multiverse except as specifically noted. So, the such worlds as the world of the Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk or any random layer of the Abyss have gravity, a breathable atmosphere and everything else matching Earth, unless some source specifies otherwise (or assumptions derived from textual evidence leads to a different conclusion).
I'd tend to agree that it's unlikely that life on Toril evolved naturally into what it is now, with the role of gods and the like.
quote:
Originally posted by BadLuckBugbear
How old is Toril?
Tens of thousands of years at least, right?
Maybe it's less than 100K years old, though. Is there any reason to assume it's been around longer than that?
Essentially, we don't know if the pre-history of Toril, i.e. the untold millennia of the Progenitors under the First Sun and the great Ice Age, covers a few thousand years or billions of years.
However, the fact that Merrouroboros (the Toril equivalent of Pangea) was still one continent only 37,000 years ago certainly suggests that Toril's pre-history is much shorter than Earth's pre-history. If I had to guess, personally, I'd say that mammals (and consequently humans) had existed on Toril only in the period under the new sun and thus not long enough to evolve biologically. So I'd personally consider the vast majority of life on Toril created in their current forms, not evolved, as on Earth. |
| BadLuckBugbear |
Posted - 19 Oct 2019 : 22:23:14
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Yeah, but noone's yet asked the question..... does fried cockatrice taste like chicken?
There's probably an official Realmslore article all about the fried monster-meats of Faerun and the daring entrepreneurs who run the restaurants that serve such delicacies. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 19 Oct 2019 : 22:01:47
Yeah, but noone's yet asked the question..... does fried cockatrice taste like chicken? |
| BadLuckBugbear |
Posted - 19 Oct 2019 : 20:47:29
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
In context of Netheril dabbling in space travel, quotes are very much called for here, indeed.
So let's consider what this does really mean. Amnians were not the first people from Faerun who knew that Maztica exists. They were the first humans from Faerun who visited Maztica, created permanent bases there and didn't go native (yet). Remove one of 3 criteria, and we can reasonably expect that someone was there and did that.
Thus, Netheril could have plants from Maztica. But the Netherese agriculture was destroyed, except what exodus groups took with them, and successfully grow wherever they settled.
Thus any of those may fall anywhere in range from lost and forgotten to widespread all over the continent ever since.
Sure, that's not implausible, but there is an even larger issue.
On Earth, the reason for the 'Old World'/'New World' distinction in flora and fauna is that the continents that once formed the super-continent of Pangea have been separated for hundreds of millions of years, meaning that different plant or animal species have had millions of years to evolve into very distinct specimens.
On Toril, the separation of Maztica and Faerun dates back only just over thirty millennia. That's about 1/10,000th of the time and it is, crucially, far too short a time to explain extensive species differentiation through normal biological evolution. Aside from deliberate genetic manipulation through selective breeding, there is really little difference between species as they existed 33,000 years ago and their descendants today.
So, barring magic or intelligent design, we shouldn't really expect Toril to have different flora and fauna in the different continents that were actually connected only a geological and evolutionary biological blink of an eye ago.
Honestly, it's most plausible that potatoes were already being grown in various dragon-ruled realms of 33,000 years ago, both in areas that ended up in Faerun and Maztica. And, frankly, the same might apply for a lot of other crops that on Earth are 'New World' crops only, as long as the climate was favorable to them.
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
Well, it can be interpreted in different ways. The priests of Chauntea are said to be very knowledgeable about growing anything. And it's more noteworthy when the subject is sufficiently uncommon that not many people are so knowledgeable about it.
We know there are places when tomatoes are definitely not treated as exotic or expensive, but they still may be a regional thing. Depends on how well people learned to store them, too.
Well, tomatoes might be a regional thing, but Ed Greenwood seems to suggest that they are a normal part of garden greens in the Realms, often being sold by haflings to humans wherever they live.
Does 'normal, biological evolution' have anything much to do with Toril?
Or most D&d settings?
Does it even occur at all?
Does it occur at a greatly accelerated rate?
How old is Toril?
Tens of thousands of years at least, right?
Maybe it's less than 100K years old, though. Is there any reason to assume it's been around longer than that?
|
| Icelander |
Posted - 19 Oct 2019 : 19:02:26
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
I suspect those rothe owned by dragons are penned in by geography in a large inaccessible valley or an island, otherwise they would quickly deplete their food supply and require someone to look after them (which might also be true)
Well, yes.
I feel that the ability of herds of deep rothé in the Underdark to subsist on moss and fungi strongly implies that surface rothé might also be able to live off a wider range of food than real-world cattle. And the rich ecology of caverns, tunnels and high mountainous terrain in the Realms suggests that nourishment, in the form of non-photosynthetic plants and fungi, is much more plentiful on Toril than Earth.
So, for humans or other species who can't necessarily eat moss or similar food sources that rothé derive nourishment from, the rothé provide a way to convert 'useless' moss into valuable protein and calories. I'm assuming that without rothé, orcs and dwarves living in the Underdark or high mountains couldn't be nearly as numerous.
Dragons, obviously, can eat almost everything, but most strongly prefer meat over moss or fungi. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 19 Oct 2019 : 17:44:20
I suspect those rothe owned by dragons are penned in by geography in a large inaccessible valley or an island, otherwise they would quickly deplete their food supply and require someone to look after them (which might also be true) |
| Icelander |
Posted - 19 Oct 2019 : 17:33:15
quote:
Originally posted by shades of eternity
Ha I used rothé in the Stonelands for my Minotaurs, complete with Roaming Rhonda, the meanest Rothe any Low Level PC had to deal with. :)
so are they domesticated or hunted wild?
If so, do entire groups end up treating them like walking supermarkets for what they can split off them? Maybe using Paddocks, or Rothe Jumps?
Both surface and deep rothé exist in the wild as well as being domesticated by humans, dwarves and a variety of other races.
I should expect that tribal peoples in the North survive off herds of rothé much as Sami with reindeer, so 'walking supermarket' is not far off.
There are also sources that note dragons penning herds of rothé in inaccessible mountain valleys, as a stored food source for the future. |
| shades of eternity |
Posted - 18 Oct 2019 : 05:01:22
Ha I used rothé in the Stonelands for my Minotaurs, complete with Roaming Rhonda, the meanest Rothe any Low Level PC had to deal with. :)
so are they domesticated or hunted wild?
If so, do entire groups end up treating them like walking supermarkets for what they can split off them? Maybe using Paddocks, or Rothe Jumps? |
| Icelander |
Posted - 18 Oct 2019 : 01:24:50
quote:
Originally posted by shades of eternity
This is one of those wierd tales that you might have use of.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1DcYIppSJQ
https://allaboutbison.com/bison-world-news/europe/siberia/
Canadian Wood Buffalo were transported by Plane to Siberia and there are there to replace extinct herds.
I guess what I'm asking is if they are at a rough geographic location in the realms, are their bison in the Vaast?
I shouldn't imagine there were bison in the Vast, no, although rothé are Realmsian wild herbivores that are somewhat similar and likely exist in numbers in the northern, mountainous parts of the Vast. If not for the rothé that fill an almost identical ecological role, however, and handle mountainous terrain better, no doubt bison would roam into the Vast.
The more central areas of the Vast probably resembles the great woods that covered most of historical Europe, complete with deer, great stags, wild boar, black bears and numerous smaller animals. Not to mention all the domesticated cattle, sheep, goats and fowl found around the human settlements.
|
| shades of eternity |
Posted - 18 Oct 2019 : 01:02:53
This is one of those wierd tales that you might have use of.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1DcYIppSJQ
https://allaboutbison.com/bison-world-news/europe/siberia/
Canadian Wood Buffalo were transported by Plane to Siberia and there are there to replace extinct herds.
I guess what I'm asking is if they are at a rough geographic location in the realms, are their bison in the Vaast? |
| Icelander |
Posted - 17 Oct 2019 : 21:46:30
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
In context of Netheril dabbling in space travel, quotes are very much called for here, indeed.
So let's consider what this does really mean. Amnians were not the first people from Faerun who knew that Maztica exists. They were the first humans from Faerun who visited Maztica, created permanent bases there and didn't go native (yet). Remove one of 3 criteria, and we can reasonably expect that someone was there and did that.
Thus, Netheril could have plants from Maztica. But the Netherese agriculture was destroyed, except what exodus groups took with them, and successfully grow wherever they settled.
Thus any of those may fall anywhere in range from lost and forgotten to widespread all over the continent ever since.
Sure, that's not implausible, but there is an even larger issue.
On Earth, the reason for the 'Old World'/'New World' distinction in flora and fauna is that the continents that once formed the super-continent of Pangea have been separated for hundreds of millions of years, meaning that different plant or animal species have had millions of years to evolve into very distinct specimens.
On Toril, the separation of Maztica and Faerun dates back only just over thirty millennia. That's about 1/10,000th of the time and it is, crucially, far too short a time to explain extensive species differentiation through normal biological evolution. Aside from deliberate genetic manipulation through selective breeding, there is really little difference between species as they existed 33,000 years ago and their descendants today.
So, barring magic or intelligent design, we shouldn't really expect Toril to have different flora and fauna in the different continents that were actually connected only a geological and evolutionary biological blink of an eye ago.
Honestly, it's most plausible that potatoes were already being grown in various dragon-ruled realms of 33,000 years ago, both in areas that ended up in Faerun and Maztica. And, frankly, the same might apply for a lot of other crops that on Earth are 'New World' crops only, as long as the climate was favorable to them.
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
Well, it can be interpreted in different ways. The priests of Chauntea are said to be very knowledgeable about growing anything. And it's more noteworthy when the subject is sufficiently uncommon that not many people are so knowledgeable about it.
We know there are places when tomatoes are definitely not treated as exotic or expensive, but they still may be a regional thing. Depends on how well people learned to store them, too.
Well, tomatoes might be a regional thing, but Ed Greenwood seems to suggest that they are a normal part of garden greens in the Realms, often being sold by haflings to humans wherever they live. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 17 Oct 2019 : 08:12:56
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
clearly pre-date the 'discovery' of Maztica
In context of Netheril dabbling in space travel, quotes are very much called for here, indeed.
So let's consider what this does really mean. Amnians were not the first people from Faerun who knew that Maztica exists. They were the first humans from Faerun who visited Maztica, created permanent bases there and didn't go native (yet). Remove one of 3 criteria, and we can reasonably expect that someone was there and did that.
Thus, Netheril could have plants from Maztica. But the Netherese agriculture was destroyed, except what exodus groups took with them, and successfully grow wherever they settled.
Thus any of those may fall anywhere in range from lost and forgotten to widespread all over the continent ever since.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
While it is true that these could theoretically describe tomatoes transported from Maztica (there are no dates), it seems extremely unlikely, especially as the priests of Chauntea are said to be very knowledgeable about growing the tomatoes.
Well, it can be interpreted in different ways. The priests of Chauntea are said to be very knowledgeable about growing anything. And it's more noteworthy when the subject is sufficiently uncommon that not many people are so knowledgeable about it.
We know there are places when tomatoes are definitely not treated as exotic or expensive, but they still may be a regional thing. Depends on how well people learned to store them, too. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 17 Oct 2019 : 00:09:49
quote:
Originally posted by shades of eternity
Saw this and it kinda reminded me what the gray forest would be like:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUf10mWmwTs
not technically culinary related, but can you imagine some of the forest stuff that would be harvested, to say the insane bio-diversity for food stocks?
Well, climate-wise, the Grey Forest seems to be quite a bit further to the south in Faerun than Bialowieza Forest is in Europe. As in, Tsurlagol and Procampur are probably similar in terms of weather to the coastal cities of Croatia, like Split or Dubrovnik. It's well over five hundred miles of north-south distance from a place where the climate matches the southern Vast to a place similar to the Bialowieza Forest, i.e. on a similar latitude as Berlin, Irktusk, Newfoundland or Alaska.
I'd imagine that the Rawlinswood was a lot better Realms analogue for Bialowieza Forest, as that would get you a similar climate. If you want to look closer to King's Reach, the northerly parts of Cormanthyr, closest to the Moonsea, as well as the woods on the eastern side of the River Lisen, might have some similarities. |
| shades of eternity |
Posted - 16 Oct 2019 : 23:38:37
Saw this and it kinda reminded me what the gray forest would be like:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUf10mWmwTs
not technically culinary related, but can you imagine some of the forest stuff that would be harvested, to say the insane bio-diversity for food stocks? |
| Icelander |
Posted - 16 Oct 2019 : 22:04:48
quote:
Originally posted by Cards77
Based on all the various canon (not including novels) if you canvas the Volos guides and such, MOSTLY everything available sticks to "old world" foods per my prior post, medieval
There ARE exceptions but they are noted as very rare like "tarbean tea" ie coffee being a super rare indulgent delicacy only served to the nobility and the like.
This is how I deal with it.
Use my post above for the foods available and create dishes you think would fit that region and then consider rare delicacies.
Well, potatoes are mentioned in a huge number of Realmslore sources, clearly pre-date the 'discovery' of Maztica and are a cheap, common food consumed by normal people in the sources.
And in the 1360s DR, i.e. in the years immediately following the 'discovery' of Maztica, the priests of Goldenfields, outside Waterdeep, are not only growing tomatoes along with their carrots (with neither treated as more remarkable than the other), but are specifically mentioned as having a remarkable depth of knowledge about methods of agriculture suitable for various crops, including the tomatoes. That seems to make it very implausible that tomatoes didn't exist in Faerun before 1361 DR.
Also, there does exist coffee from Maztica, but coffee also comes from other areas, like the Shining South, Utter East and even Anauroch. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 16 Oct 2019 : 21:51:30
quote:
Originally posted by shades of eternity
If we use our real-world as an analogue, any new world food would probably be anomalies that Faerun would have no clue to actually prepare (I remember an old Black Adder episode where they thought you smoked potatoes and it's probably closer to the historical truth).
1492 set off the age of discovery, but Francis Drake introduced potatoes into England in 1580 so you can justify saying no new world imports for at least a century, barring adventurers of course.
Eh, maybe. Keep in mind that in places like Ravens Bluff, gates to Earth have had enough of an impact for there to be 'patisseries' there, explicitly named for what Elminster says they call pastry bakeries 'in a far place indeed'.
The Realms have 40,000 years of recorded history, four times longer than any kind of human history we know about on Earth, and planewalkers and adventurers have probably brought an incredible profusion of ideas back in that time. There are deities who limit technological advancement, but they do not seem opposed to people bringing back recipes or merely the idea that they should use a given plant to flavor something.
That being said, the twelve years elapsed between the 'discovery' of Maztica and the events of my campaign are probably far too short for any Maztican crops to have become part of cuisines around the Inner Sea. Adventurous nobles and fad-driven merchant princes might experiment with imported exotics, but King's Reach or the Vast in general is not really somewhere I'd expect to find a huge market of Maztican delicacies.
That being said, I've found references to both potatoes and tomatoes in the Realms that obviously refer to crops that predate the 'discovery' of Maztica. Any suggestion in Aurora's Whole Realms Catalog that these exclusively exist in Faerun as Maztican imports is therefore likely an error (or a lie) perpetrated by the in-world writer of the catalog.
It's possible that Maztican cultivars are different in some way, but potatoes, for example, are a very common food in all the Heartlands and have been since long before 1361 DR.
Tomatoes, meanwhile, are mentioned as being pictured on the sigil of a realm in the Border Kingdoms and being grown in Goldenfields. While it is true that these could theoretically describe tomatoes transported from Maztica (there are no dates), it seems extremely unlikely, especially as the priests of Chauntea are said to be very knowledgeable about growing the tomatoes.
quote:
Originally posted by shades of eternity
I see nothing in the realms that says that granulated sugar occurred at all, much less at the rates historically.
I'd expect it to be much more expensive than we are used to, but Realmslore sources do mention sugared fruit, berries and even bread sprinkled with sugar (as a very common side dish). People in Ravens Bluff also apparently put sugar in tea.
quote:
Originally posted by shades of eternity
I'd argue that cash crop cultivation would be escalated by the Sundering when Anarchrome/Maztica literally disappeared and they want/need their fix.
Are you talking about something that happened in the history of the 1350s to 1370s DR Realms?
In my campaign, set in 1373 DR, nothing has happened to Maztica and no Sundering has occurred since the elvish catastrophe in the eighteenth millennia before the raising of the Standing Stone.
As I don't expect to ever play out a century of adventuring, no Sundering can be expected in my campaign, either.
quote:
Originally posted by shades of eternity
Tethyr has become a breadbasket of sorts though. Lands of intrigue list cherries, quinces, plums and all manner of berries grown there. I can see unsugared jams and jelly's being a major trade good from that area. Not sure about what they use for preservation though.
Sugar can be processed from beets, among other things. It's just much more expensive than if you have a massive source of sugar cane and a rapidly industrializing process of converting it into granulated sugar.
The Realmsian diet, at least for anyone other than nobility and merchant princes, will be much lower in sugar than a modern diet, but there is no reason that there can't be some used. Especially when it's such a good method for preserving fruit and berries.
quote:
Originally posted by shades of eternity
As for the Vaast, it's a hop, skip and a jump away from Sembia, so I'd imagine there are some serious naval trade routes in the sea of fallen stars.
So this means, amongst other things, barrel's of pickled fish (thank you PHB 2nd edition). :D
Working with the idea that one region away by land or sea would be relatively tradable:
Crackers
Fruit cakes
Hard Tack
Sourdough
Cheeses:
Arabellan Chedder
Chetessan Lotus Cheese
Death Cheese
Darmite Red is right on the edge of accessibility. Would leave that up to the GM.
Turmish Brick
Vihon Blanc
Ales and Beers:
Bitter Black
Wines:
Arabellian dry
Blood Wine
Fire wine might be - but serious edge case
Westgate Ruby
All good points and, remember, the transport of something a mile overland by ox cart or wagon is about as expensive as eight miles by river and 64 miles on an oceanic shipping route.
So, any foodstuff located close to a port on the Inner Sea is likely to be 'closer' in economic terms to Ravens Bluff and Tantras than something that grows 50 miles inland. Pretty much all the food in King's Reach that isn't strictly locally grown will be transported up the River Vesper and may have originally come from the Dalelands or Sembia.
quote:
Originally posted by shades of eternity
edit: plus some eastern europian food inferences
https://www.tripsavvy.com/traditional-eastern-european-foods-1501559
I'm assuming Cabbagerolls are a thing. :D
Hope that helps. :)
Yeah, I'm planning on sneaking in a lot of influences from Austrian, Bohemian and Balkan food for the area around King's Reach, given the probable similarity in terrain and climate.
And yes, this helps, thanks a lot. It always helps to have someone to bounce ideas off. |
| Cards77 |
Posted - 16 Oct 2019 : 21:26:40
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Some quick thoughts
I've made some decisions on what foodstuffs were available for sale in King's Reach when the PCs and their retinue stopped there to refresh their stocks.
Plums. The common plum (Prunus domestica) seems to flourish in most temperate regions and would absolutely grow in the Vast. In late Mirtul, it might not be the height of plum season, but early ones should be available.
Pears. Cultivated in cool temperate climates since the earliest days of humans on Earth, pears seem ideal for the Vast and they can even grow in the foothills and valleys of the Earthspur Mountains, just as pears grow in alpine countries on Earth. Again, late Mirtul is at the very beginning of their harvest, which might mean that they are a bit green, but probably available. A bonus is that the pears they bought in King's Reach will keep well, as for the first fortnight, the fruit are still ripening.
Cherries. Wild cherries (Prunus avium) were historically cultivated from Asia to Britain and should easily grow in the Vast. Mirtul also ought to be the start of cherry season in a temperate climate like the Vast.
Strawberries. While the well-known garden strawberry is an Early Modern era creation of humans on Earth (and therefore might or might not exist on Toril), wild strawberries (Fragaria vesca) have long grown in areas on Earth which seem climatically similar to the Vast and the Earthspur Mountains, such as the Balkans and the Alps.
Cranberries. The common cranberry (Vaccinium oxycoccos) or fenberry should grow well around Ylraphon and the Flooded Forest, for example. As they are harvested in the autumn, however, fresh cranberries are probably not available in King's Reach in the spring or early summer, though preserves, juice or other products may be. Interestingly, no technology is required to store cranberries frozen, so it might be possible for affluent gourmands living in places above the snowline to buy them from Ylraphon and store them in cold high places. I think that a noble NPC who lives in Kurth, Vurthan Aldimar (of the Tantras Aldimar), might have found his favorite tipple, a mixture of highly sweetened cranberry juice, clear corn liquor and glacial ice.
Any type of melon. From what I can tell, there are no types of melon cultivars commonly grown that seem likely to flourish north of Tsurlagol and Procampur and they would require some care even there. Not available, I decide.
Leeks. Multiple cultivars of the leek (Allium ampeloprasum) historically grew all over temperate Europe and seem plausible in the Vast as well.
Tomatoes. On Earth, a 'New World' crop that didn't exist in Europe before the discovery of the Americas. Is anyone aware of the canon position of tomatoes in the Forgotten Realms? Do they grow in the Heartlands (and elsewhere) or are they a new fruit from Maztica?
String beans. Same question as for tomatoes.
Cucumbers. Given that cucumber cultivars appear to have originated at one of the cradles of civilization on Earth and spread into Europe and Asia along with agriculture, I'm guessing it also grows anywhere in the Realms where climatically possible. Interestingly, the fondness of Roman emperors for cucumbers is responsible for the first greenhouses of which I'm aware, so... I guess rich communities in the Realms (like dwarven ones) wanting a wider selection of foodstuffs than are in season or can be grown locally might well use greenhouse technology even without electricity.
Squash. Same question as tomatoes.
Based on all the various canon (not including novels) if you canvas the Volos guides and such, MOSTLY everything available sticks to "old world" foods per my prior post, medieval
There ARE exceptions but they are noted as very rare like "tarbean tea" ie coffee being a super rare indulgent delicacy only served to the nobility and the like.
This is how I deal with it.
Use my post above for the foods available and create dishes you think would fit that region and then consider rare delicacies.
|
| shades of eternity |
Posted - 16 Oct 2019 : 20:44:41
If we use our real-world as an analogue, any new world food would probably be anomalies that Faerun would have no clue to actually prepare (I remember an old Black Adder episode where they thought you smoked potatoes and it's probably closer to the historical truth).
1492 set off the age of discovery, but Francis Drake introduced potatoes into England in 1580 so you can justify saying no new world imports for at least a century, barring adventurers of course.
I see nothing in the realms that says that granulated sugar occurred at all, much less at the rates historically.
I'd argue that cash crop cultivation would be escalated by the Sundering when Anarchrome/Maztica literally disappeared and they want/need their fix.
Tethyr has become a breadbasket of sorts though. Lands of intrigue list cherries, quinces, plums and all manner of berries grown there. I can see unsugared jams and jelly's being a major trade good from that area. Not sure about what they use for preservation though.
As for the Vaast, it's a hop, skip and a jump away from Sembia, so I'd imagine there are some serious naval trade routes in the sea of fallen stars.
So this means, amongst other things, barrel's of pickled fish (thank you PHB 2nd edition). :D
Working with the idea that one region away by land or sea would be relatively tradable:
Crackers
Fruit cakes
Hard Tack
Sourdough
Cheeses:
Arabellan Chedder
Chetessan Lotus Cheese
Death Cheese
Darmite Red is right on the edge of accessibility. Would leave that up to the GM.
Turmish Brick
Vihon Blanc
Ales and Beers:
Bitter Black
Wines:
Arabellian dry
Blood Wine
Fire wine might be - but serious edge case
Westgate Ruby
edit: plus some eastern europian food inferences
https://www.tripsavvy.com/traditional-eastern-european-foods-1501559
I'm assuming Cabbagerolls are a thing. :D
Hope that helps. :) |
| Icelander |
Posted - 16 Oct 2019 : 18:00:53
quote:
Originally posted by shades of eternity
before I respond, I have a question.
What year was Aurora's Whole Realms catalogue supposed to have been published?
I know it's during the 2nd edition era in the year 1992 (and believe there is some sort of relation between what year it is in the realms and published materials).
I'm not sure of the exact Dale Reckoning date the first catalogue would have been published, but Aurora's Emporium flourished in the 1360s and was still going strong at 1370 DR. |
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