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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Oct 2019 : 11:50:03
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I'm wondering what kind of food, treats and delicacies would be remaining in the stores of a large band of adventurers about a week out of King's Reach and about 15 days out of Ravens Bluff. It's late Mirtul in 1373 DR, the Year of Rogue Dragons.
The PCs bought plenty of travelling rations in Ravens Bluff, as well as fresh food that they intended to eat the first days of the trip. In King's Reach, they added to their stores of fresh food. They are well-funded* and have a Bag of Holding that can store 1,500 lbs. available, as well as a baggage train of a dozen mules, six ponies and six light wagons.**
I haven't established exactly what their purchases bought them, beyond food to make them and their retinue as healthy and happy as possible, but roleplaying the preparation and, later, the eating of a feast on a road now makes it desirable I decide on the variety of foodstuffs on offer in greater detail.
My main issue is that I have a very limited grasp of the availability of various foodstuffs common in our world in the Vast and, even for those I determine to be available, I have no idea what kind of shelf life various tasty treats have without artificial preservatives, airtight containers or refrigeration.
The Realms are not medieval Europe, but they are not the modern West either, so neither historical research nor personal familiarity are much help. And while I've made notes of the foodstuffs explicitly mentioned in The City of Ravens Bluff, the best supplement for the area, any sourcebook can by its very nature only touch lightly on the surface of what a given culture and region is like. Basically, very few foodstuffs are mentioned and I'd like to know more about what kinds are available, common and practical.
In medieval Europe, all sorts of things that I think of as basic foodstuffs and/or flavorings just didn't exist***, e.g. corn (maize), tomatoes, green beans (pretty much all common beans, really), potatoes, chilies, cranberries, vanilla and chocolate. Also, in medieval Europe, without access to the cheap sugarcane from the New World, pure sugar as an ingredient in other food (as opposed to foods with sugar content) was infinitely rarer and more expensive.
In Ed's original Realms, there were certainly potatoes and the New World-Old World split of crops does not seem to have been a feature of the world as originally envisioned. However, the introduction of Maztica by TSR appears to have introduced the idea of chilies, chocolates, vanilla and possibly all kinds of other foodstuffs being canonically exclusively Maztican imports to Faerun. The result of which is that I am never sure whether a given fruit or vegetable which in the real world is a New World crop is native to somewhere in the Realms or not.
Added to which, there are certainly climactic considerations for where plants can grow and where they will flourish best, even in a fantasy world. It's absolutely canon that some fruits only grow in southerly regions of the Realms and so forth. So, when called upon to answer a player's question of whether he can buy a pear or a plum at market, in the absence of a canonical statement in a sourcebook, novel or by an author online about that fruit, the GM has to have some idea of how the climate of where the PCs are compares to the climate of some real-world ecological system.
Going by geography, rough position on a world map and descriptions in sourcebooks, I tend to feel like the weather and terrain of the Vast might be similar to the Balkans for the southern parts of it, such as Ravens Bluff and especially Procampur and Tsurlagol, and Central Europe (e.g. Austria, Czech Republic, Hungary and Slovakia) for the northern parts of the Vast, such as King's Reach and environs.
What does this mean for regional crops, cuisine and delicacies?
What are especially good foodstuffs that last about a week when carried in a Bag of Holding?
Most normal bread goes stale when stored that long, but on Earth, there are many regional methods used to bake bread that lasts longer. Ship's biscuit, most types of rye bread, pumpernickel bread, most types of sourdough bread, etc.
Which types of longer-lasting bread are popular in the Vast?
What desserts and sweet treats might people in the Vast make that could last a week or longer?
What are the fruits and berries that are in season in the Vast during spring and early summer?
*As in, merchant princes and nobility.
**Mostly empty on the way out, intended to carry treasure back.
***Because they are native to the New World, with which there was no trade or cultivar exchange until the era to which the 'medieval' descriptor can properly be applied had ended.
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Nilus Reynard
Learned Scribe
Canada
137 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2019 : 07:12:11
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| Salted meats, of all kinds, but mostly pork or beef can last a very long time on the trail. Armies used it for centuries because of the salt's ability to repel any sort of pest that would normally attack food stores, even rats wouldn't touch it. Salt could then be removed through soaking/ washing or boiling. |
Nilus Reynard
Doom Master of Beshaba, Hand of Despair.
P24 Hm CN
(2nd Edition AD&D) |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2019 : 14:53:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Nilus Reynard
Salted meats, of all kinds, but mostly pork or beef can last a very long time on the trail. Armies used it for centuries because of the salt's ability to repel any sort of pest that would normally attack food stores, even rats wouldn't touch it. Salt could then be removed through soaking/ washing or boiling.
Yes, it's plausible that fresh meat carefully packed in salt would last seven days and later on the trip, salted, smoked and cured meat will form an important staple of their traveling rations.
I wonder if there are other storage methods used in the Vast for high-quality steaks. In the real world, we age steaks for weeks, but as far as I understand, that process uses modern technology. I wonder if there are Realmsian method of preparing meat that allows for more appetizing meals a week after buyibg it than salting, smoking, curing or drying.
Also, of course, I'm looking for any and all variety of foodstuffs affluent noble retinues would have available on the road. Bread, vegetables, fruits, desserts and delicacies. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2019 : 15:51:57
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There is pickling, Sugaring (for some fruits it appears), Jellying, drying and canning of goods.
How long and types of foods vary. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Cards77
Senior Scribe
USA
745 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2019 : 16:37:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
I'm wondering what kind of food, treats and delicacies would be remaining in the stores of a large band of adventurers about a week out of King's Reach and about 15 days out of Ravens Bluff. It's late Mirtul in 1373 DR, the Year of Rogue Dragons.
The PCs bought plenty of travelling rations in Ravens Bluff, as well as fresh food that they intended to eat the first days of the trip. In King's Reach, they added to their stores of fresh food. They are well-funded* and have a Bag of Holding that can store 1,500 lbs. available, as well as a baggage train of a dozen mules, six ponies and six light wagons.**
I haven't established exactly what their purchases bought them, beyond food to make them and their retinue as healthy and happy as possible, but roleplaying the preparation and, later, the eating of a feast on a road now makes it desirable I decide on the variety of foodstuffs on offer in greater detail.
My main issue is that I have a very limited grasp of the availability of various foodstuffs common in our world in the Vast and, even for those I determine to be available, I have no idea what kind of shelf life various tasty treats have without artificial preservatives, airtight containers or refrigeration.
The Realms are not medieval Europe, but they are not the modern West either, so neither historical research nor personal familiarity are much help. And while I've made notes of the foodstuffs explicitly mentioned in The City of Ravens Bluff, the best supplement for the area, any sourcebook can by its very nature only touch lightly on the surface of what a given culture and region is like. Basically, very few foodstuffs are mentioned and I'd like to know more about what kinds are available, common and practical.
In medieval Europe, all sorts of things that I think of as basic foodstuffs and/or flavorings just didn't exist***, e.g. corn (maize), tomatoes, green beans (pretty much all common beans, really), potatoes, chilies, cranberries, vanilla and chocolate. Also, in medieval Europe, without access to the cheap sugarcane from the New World, pure sugar as an ingredient in other food (as opposed to foods with sugar content) was infinitely rarer and more expensive.
In Ed's original Realms, there were certainly potatoes and the New World-Old World split of crops does not seem to have been a feature of the world as originally envisioned. However, the introduction of Maztica by TSR appears to have introduced the idea of chilies, chocolates, vanilla and possibly all kinds of other foodstuffs being canonically exclusively Maztican imports to Faerun. The result of which is that I am never sure whether a given fruit or vegetable which in the real world is a New World crop is native to somewhere in the Realms or not.
Added to which, there are certainly climactic considerations for where plants can grow and where they will flourish best, even in a fantasy world. It's absolutely canon that some fruits only grow in southerly regions of the Realms and so forth. So, when called upon to answer a player's question of whether he can buy a pear or a plum at market, in the absence of a canonical statement in a sourcebook, novel or by an author online about that fruit, the GM has to have some idea of how the climate of where the PCs are compares to the climate of some real-world ecological system.
Going by geography, rough position on a world map and descriptions in sourcebooks, I tend to feel like the weather and terrain of the Vast might be similar to the Balkans for the southern parts of it, such as Ravens Bluff and especially Procampur and Tsurlagol, and Central Europe (e.g. Austria, Czech Republic, Hungary and Slovakia) for the northern parts of the Vast, such as King's Reach and environs.
What does this mean for regional crops, cuisine and delicacies?
What are especially good foodstuffs that last about a week when carried in a Bag of Holding?
Most normal bread goes stale when stored that long, but on Earth, there are many regional methods used to bake bread that lasts longer. Ship's biscuit, most types of rye bread, pumpernickel bread, most types of sourdough bread, etc.
Which types of longer-lasting bread are popular in the Vast?
What desserts and sweet treats might people in the Vast make that could last a week or longer?
What are the fruits and berries that are in season in the Vast during spring and early summer?
*As in, merchant princes and nobility.
**Mostly empty on the way out, intended to carry treasure back.
***Because they are native to the New World, with which there was no trade or cultivar exchange until the era to which the 'medieval' descriptor can properly be applied had ended.
I have given this alot of thought, and also created my own 'trail rations" for our gaming group.
Here are some ideas, some of these are mine but a GREAT inspiration is Aurora's Whole Realms Catalog
Meats smoked mutton, pork and otherwise cold smoke meats of all kinds. Sausages, hams, and smoked bacon. Even whole smoke chickens or game hens.
Duck, goose, pheasant, grouse, quail etc.
corned beef, pickles herring or cod, smoked same. Smoked salmon
Breads hard unleavened breads or stout raised breads. Think hard tack.
One of my creations is "honey tack" a halfling recipe. It's traditional hard tack but the honey adds flavor and a natural preservative.
Various other takes on travel breads like Elven Way Bread from LoTR etc.
Hard biscuits travel well
Fruit cakes with raisins, cherries, and nuts.
Sourdough can be baked on the trail and is ubiquitous throughout history and the known world for capturing wild yeast.
A bit of water, flour can make this on the trail.
Cheese: Hard cheeses travel extremely well in all sizes of wheels. Rothe cheese or goat cheese.
Nut cheeses are very popular in the north: add hickory nuts, walnuts, chestnuts.
fruit Depending on the season: apples, pears, quince, plum, grapes, cherries, berries.
Vegetables
Cabbage: Medievals it is found as cabbage cultivars including cauliflower, kale, broccoli, etc; soups, stews, salads; pickled; cooked; juiced
Lettuce: Medievals: salads
Turnips: Medievals: cooked; stews; pickled;
Parsnips:Medievals: cooked; preserved; juiced for sweet essence
Beets: Medievals cultivated varietals into chard; eaten cooked, sauces, soups;
Radishes: Medievals eaten as salad, cooked, sauces, soups, stews;
Gourds:Medievals: soups, stews, cooked
Asparagus: Medievals: cooked, fried
Mushrooms: Medievals: cooked, fried, salads, dried
I will add to this various wild varieties of garlic and onion but not as we know them today.
Various other herbs were grown or gathered locally: sorrel, mint, watercress, too many to list.
Cereals grown wild or cultivated: oats, wheat, etc
working from my personal experience i have gathered these foods and cooked them: elderberries, huckleberry, chokecherry, indian celery, cat tails, mint, watercress, crab apple, hawthorne, apples, pears, plums, many kinds of mushrooms, even hops.
Here is a link to some of the rations I've created
https://imgur.com/gallery/BWnHF
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2019 : 16:37:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
There is pickling, Sugaring (for some fruits it appears), Jellying, drying and canning of goods.
How long and types of foods vary.
Jellies, jams and preserves are no doubt mainstays of winter cuisines for the better off anywhere in the Realms. Does anyone have an idea of the fruits and berries most common in the Vast?
Pickled onions can be made anywhere, but which other vegetables grow in the Vast that are good eating pickled?
Pure sugar is extremely expensive in an economy without the massive sugarcane infrastructure (mostly slave driven) of the New World on Earth (or the mechanical sugar industry which replaced it). Refining sugar from beets (or other alternatives that are available in temperate climates) is far less efficient. That's not to say it wouldn't be affordable for the PCs, but it makes it less likely that large amounts would be available for sale, as such expensive treats wouldn't be a common part of the cuisine for people in King's Reach.
Canning is a 19th century technology on Earth and I've always assumed it's not available in the Realms. Is that a wrong assumption? |
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Cards77
Senior Scribe
USA
745 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2019 : 16:54:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
There is pickling, Sugaring (for some fruits it appears), Jellying, drying and canning of goods.
How long and types of foods vary.
Jellies, jams and preserves are no doubt mainstays of winter cuisines for the better off anywhere in the Realms. Does anyone have an idea of the fruits and berries most common in the Vast?
Pickled onions can be made anywhere, but which other vegetables grow in the Vast that are good eating pickled?
Pure sugar is extremely expensive in an economy without the massive sugarcane infrastructure (mostly slave driven) of the New World on Earth (or the mechanical sugar industry which replaced it). Refining sugar from beets (or other alternatives that are available in temperate climates) is far less efficient. That's not to say it wouldn't be affordable for the PCs, but it makes it less likely that large amounts would be available for sale, as such expensive treats wouldn't be a common part of the cuisine for people in King's Reach.
Canning is a 19th century technology on Earth and I've always assumed it's not available in the Realms. Is that a wrong assumption?
Honey can and was used as a direct substitute for sugar all throughout history.
Almost anything that calls for sugar can use honey instead.
This opens the door for all kinds of delicious desserts. Jams, jellies, tarts, pie, cakes, etc. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2019 : 16:56:17
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| It is hard to recall if the Realms have canning. However in some ways while modern canning was invented about 1803, there was dry storage canning of grains or other easy foods much older. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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shades of eternity
Learned Scribe
288 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2019 : 16:58:21
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Ever since Aurora's whole realms catalog, I worked on the assumption that food is kinda in the same boat as turn of the early 20th century just before refrigeration became common, at least in the big cities.
Food is mostly fairly localized, but it's possible to transport food from one end of the realms to another while preserving it (heck I'm surprised we don't have more wall of ice transports).
Since jars are available through Aurora, pickling is possible as is available in the catalog, and a relatively cheap means to preserve.
Spices have also spread from far off and exotic locations, as they in our world a means to spice up otherwise humdrum food (and after eating the provisions of create food and water after the 8th day, you want something to spice it up). Heck one of the reasons for New Amn and the Waterdeep colony's in Anchorome was a means to grow these spice and unusual crops.
I'm pretty sure Maize and Potatos are now available in Faerun because of how long contact has taken place, but it might be more of an Empires of the Sands thing.
After Anchorome and Maztica disappeared, they switched to trying to grow them on the Chult Peninsula.
I can also see the desired pleasure of a chef having prestidigitation in case he can't get his vaunted ingredients, but knows exactly what he wants.
There will also the changing of localized foods. Second to third generation Mazticans in Amn would be most likely have created a dish that would be the equivelent of ginger beef: a food inspired by their original homeland, but invented in their new home.
Plus it should be fairly easy to do to do food preservation because
https://www.thevintagenews.com/2018/03/21/napoleon-food/
The technology is very available in the realms. The only reason it might not be because there might be a magic equivelent which sometimes stiffles technological innovation.
But with the Trade way stretching across the sword coast and hundreds of years of usage, there will be transplanting of food and innovation because of it.
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check out my post-post apocalyptic world at www.drevrpg.com |
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Cards77
Senior Scribe
USA
745 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2019 : 17:00:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
There is pickling, Sugaring (for some fruits it appears), Jellying, drying and canning of goods.
How long and types of foods vary.
Jellies, jams and preserves are no doubt mainstays of winter cuisines for the better off anywhere in the Realms. Does anyone have an idea of the fruits and berries most common in the Vast?
Pickled onions can be made anywhere, but which other vegetables grow in the Vast that are good eating pickled?
Pure sugar is extremely expensive in an economy without the massive sugarcane infrastructure (mostly slave driven) of the New World on Earth (or the mechanical sugar industry which replaced it). Refining sugar from beets (or other alternatives that are available in temperate climates) is far less efficient. That's not to say it wouldn't be affordable for the PCs, but it makes it less likely that large amounts would be available for sale, as such expensive treats wouldn't be a common part of the cuisine for people in King's Reach.
Canning is a 19th century technology on Earth and I've always assumed it's not available in the Realms. Is that a wrong assumption?
No no canning. Food preservation would be limited to: smoking, salting, pickling, drying and corning.
Glass would have been too expensives. Think ceramic crocks, small barrels, packed with pickled or salted foods.
Smoke shacks were common and hams, bacon etc were all hung and cold smoked to keep longer. |
Edited by - Cards77 on 13 Oct 2019 17:01:04 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11694 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2019 : 18:56:01
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For the area in which you're talking, it might be best to also look into the nearby towns. Kurth for instance is noted as suffering from water shortages and their local beer having an odd taste because they "recirculate their water"... which I read as recycling their "waste" magically.
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Kurth_(town)
Then there's Blanaer, a town noted for smelling like dung or "stinks like Blanaer", due to the cattle and sheep herding (as well as other agricultural venues).
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Blanaer
From City of Raven's Bluff you can find most of the above. There's also
Dead Tree Hollow is today a sleepy little wooded village, known for its fiddlehead (in season) and fern-frond soup, exotic mushrooms (much prized by gourmets around the Dragon Reach), and its excellent wagonworks.
In Stormrime there's "The Boar's Head Inn"
A carved wooden boar's head greets customers in the lobby, beyond which is a small, cozy restaurant running to nice booths and too many pillars, breaking up a room that always smells of sizzling bacon. As long as you like pork in its various guises (including a marvelous leek-and-hock soup), this is the place for you. They have handrolls of black bread with strong cheese, just to liven things up, and for dessert a savory dish of chilled almond cream; a choice only the gods (well, some gods) could improve upon. If you don#146;t mind literally being on the edge of the city, these are accommodations that#146;ll please you#151;and you can ride off with fresh-cut or smoked meats to go (Boch Cedmac maintains a smokehouse not far away).
Hunting
Boar, deer, and black-masked bear roam the forests of the Vast and can be found, well roasted, on local inn tables. The Vast is known around the Inner Sea for its succulent roast stag, the meat being of the highest quality and size. Traditionally, this dish is served on large platters, the first bearing the full rack of antlers to the tables, surrounded by sweetmeats and choice cuts.
The city of Maerstar is known for horsebreeding, and I wouldn't be surprised to find out that older horses or wounded horses get turned into sausage, steaks, jerky, etc...
The city of Sendrin would be another place for various well kept meats since it has cattle ranchers
Known today primarily as a place of basketweavers, cattle-ranchers, and furniture-makers, Sendrin boasts a surprising number of large and important-looking stone
houses and shops, all built when Sendrin was a town of magic, long ago
Sevenecho has an inn of note
Guests here can sleep, get good filling meals (the soups and stews are justly famous), and take scentwater baths in huge copper tubs. One can also buy fine smoked meats, homebrewed beer, and the strong-flavored local Obaleth cheese.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Nilus Reynard
Learned Scribe
Canada
137 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2019 : 09:45:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Nilus Reynard
Salted meats, of all kinds, but mostly pork or beef can last a very long time on the trail. Armies used it for centuries because of the salt's ability to repel any sort of pest that would normally attack food stores, even rats wouldn't touch it. Salt could then be removed through soaking/ washing or boiling.
Yes, it's plausible that fresh meat carefully packed in salt would last seven days and later on the trip, salted, smoked and cured meat will form an important staple of their traveling rations.
I wonder if there are other storage methods used in the Vast for high-quality steaks. In the real world, we age steaks for weeks, but as far as I understand, that process uses modern technology. I wonder if there are Realmsian method of preparing meat that allows for more appetizing meals a week after buyibg it than salting, smoking, curing or drying.
Also, of course, I'm looking for any and all variety of foodstuffs affluent noble retinues would have available on the road. Bread, vegetables, fruits, desserts and delicacies.
Fruit leather can last for up to a week without any sort of refrigeration.
Honey cured fruits last much longer than other kinds of raw or cooked fruit, up to several days in some cases. (ie. Honey Dates)
Nuts, especially if left in the shell, can last up to a year. Some sorts of nuts would be so expensive that the average adventurer could not reasonably afford them & would be considered delicacies.
Different types of vegetables can be dried & then re-hydrated later on. The same with noodles.
This is what I can think of off the top of my head. |
Nilus Reynard
Doom Master of Beshaba, Hand of Despair.
P24 Hm CN
(2nd Edition AD&D) |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2382 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2019 : 13:14:32
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| Perhaps not canned as such, but packing meats and vegetables in oil (that is, in kegs/jars). |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Cards77
Senior Scribe
USA
745 Posts |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2019 : 23:17:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Nilus Reynard
Fruit leather can last for up to a week without any sort of refrigeration.
I hadn't even heard of fruit leather before this.
Yay, learning!
I've gotten at least one interesting note for my upcoming session from this scroll.
quote:
Originally posted by Nilus Reynard
Honey cured fruits last much longer than other kinds of raw or cooked fruit, up to several days in some cases. (ie. Honey Dates)
Don't a lot of perfectly ordinary fruit last for days and even weeks, depending on when they are picked?
Apples were stored for months in the real world, after all, even before refrigeration.
Not that the PCs wouldn't have bought candied and honeyed fruit for their trip, but it doesn't seem like that would necessarily be among the fresher food that they need to cook on the seventh day out of King's Reach, before it starts to spoil. At least, I thought candied fruit lasted a lot longer than a week.
quote:
Originally posted by Nilus Reynard
Nuts, especially if left in the shell, can last up to a year. Some sorts of nuts would be so expensive that the average adventurer could not reasonably afford them & would be considered delicacies.
'Average adventurer' is sort of like 'average NFL player' (except NFL players don't have literally superhuman abilities, like characters with levels in adventurer classes), in that even the 'poorest' of them have revenues an order of magnitude above what normal people earn.* Adventurers may be disreputable compared to established nobility, but they are disreputable in the way that venture capitalists are considered disreputable, i.e. not actually poors.
There can absolutely be comparatively 'poor' adventurers, living hand-to-mouth between their occasional scores, but they'll be the sort of high-income, high-expenses hand-to-mouth people that you see in professional sports or the celebrity world on Earth, not someone who simply can't earn very much. After all, when you have supernatural abilities that the vast majority of people can't and never will have, you really need to work at it to avoid being rich.
Basically, I'd expect adventurers in the Realms to be a core demographic in the market for any kind of delicacies that travel well and can be stored for a reasonable time. Nobles have less reason to care if new supplies need to be brought in every few days, as they rarely travel without a household, but adventurers are both extremely resource rich compared to 98% of the population and in a position where they have to care about the logistics behind their meals.
*The minimum salary in the NFL is $480,000 a year, roughly fifteen times the average yearly personal income in the US.
quote:
Originally posted by Nilus Reynard
Different types of vegetables can be dried & then re-hydrated later on. The same with noodles.
This is what I can think of off the top of my head.
Okay, but what kinds of delicacies and foodstuffs would be available in the Vast that naturally last a few days, up to a week, and would be among the fresh supplies that the PCs and their retinues are cooking on the seventh day before they start spoiling?
Wild game is a given, but what kind of fruit and vegetables?
Is it closer to what would have been available in the medieval Balkans or what is available in the real world Southeastern Europe in the modern day?
Or are there no similarities to any real-world region, which is pretty problematic, as that means that I don't have any basis for deciding what grows there and what doesn't, beyond the minuscule number of vegetables that have been mentioned in sourcebooks?
The Dalelands aren't all that far away and the climate must be similar, so it wouldn't be illogical to assume that the same fruits and vegetables grow in the Vast as the Dalelands.
Does that mean that any of the following are locally grown in the Vast?
Plums
Pears
Cherries
Strawberries
Cranberries
Any type of melon
Leeks
Tomatoes
String beans
Cucumbers
Squash
Not to mention literally thousands of other possibilities... |
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Cards77
Senior Scribe
USA
745 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2019 : 01:24:19
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Well there are several dozen suggestions here. I do not believe there is a "canon" for what kind of delicacies would be in the particular region at that particular time.
So I would just make your own. Baklava, candied dates, the possibilities are endless. Just do what you think fits your flavor of your game, maybe even make them in real life and serve to your group |
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Nilus Reynard
Learned Scribe
Canada
137 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2019 : 11:07:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Nilus Reynard
Fruit leather can last for up to a week without any sort of refrigeration.
I hadn't even heard of fruit leather before this.
Yay, learning!
I've gotten at least one interesting note for my upcoming session from this scroll.
quote:
Originally posted by Nilus Reynard
Honey cured fruits last much longer than other kinds of raw or cooked fruit, up to several days in some cases. (ie. Honey Dates)
Don't a lot of perfectly ordinary fruit last for days and even weeks, depending on when they are picked?
Apples were stored for months in the real world, after all, even before refrigeration.
Not that the PCs wouldn't have bought candied and honeyed fruit for their trip, but it doesn't seem like that would necessarily be among the fresher food that they need to cook on the seventh day out of King's Reach, before it starts to spoil. At least, I thought candied fruit lasted a lot longer than a week.
quote:
Originally posted by Nilus Reynard
Nuts, especially if left in the shell, can last up to a year. Some sorts of nuts would be so expensive that the average adventurer could not reasonably afford them & would be considered delicacies.
'Average adventurer' is sort of like 'average NFL player' (except NFL players don't have literally superhuman abilities, like characters with levels in adventurer classes), in that even the 'poorest' of them have revenues an order of magnitude above what normal people earn.* Adventurers may be disreputable compared to established nobility, but they are disreputable in the way that venture capitalists are considered disreputable, i.e. not actually poors.
There can absolutely be comparatively 'poor' adventurers, living hand-to-mouth between their occasional scores, but they'll be the sort of high-income, high-expenses hand-to-mouth people that you see in professional sports or the celebrity world on Earth, not someone who simply can't earn very much. After all, when you have supernatural abilities that the vast majority of people can't and never will have, you really need to work at it to avoid being rich.
Basically, I'd expect adventurers in the Realms to be a core demographic in the market for any kind of delicacies that travel well and can be stored for a reasonable time. Nobles have less reason to care if new supplies need to be brought in every few days, as they rarely travel without a household, but adventurers are both extremely resource rich compared to 98% of the population and in a position where they have to care about the logistics behind their meals.
*The minimum salary in the NFL is $480,000 a year, roughly fifteen times the average yearly personal income in the US.
quote:
Originally posted by Nilus Reynard
Different types of vegetables can be dried & then re-hydrated later on. The same with noodles.
This is what I can think of off the top of my head.
Okay, but what kinds of delicacies and foodstuffs would be available in the Vast that naturally last a few days, up to a week, and would be among the fresh supplies that the PCs and their retinues are cooking on the seventh day before they start spoiling?
Wild game is a given, but what kind of fruit and vegetables?
Is it closer to what would have been available in the medieval Balkans or what is available in the real world Southeastern Europe in the modern day?
Or are there no similarities to any real-world region, which is pretty problematic, as that means that I don't have any basis for deciding what grows there and what doesn't, beyond the minuscule number of vegetables that have been mentioned in sourcebooks?
The Dalelands aren't all that far away and the climate must be similar, so it wouldn't be illogical to assume that the same fruits and vegetables grow in the Vast as the Dalelands.
Does that mean that any of the following are locally grown in the Vast?
Plums
Pears
Cherries
Strawberries
Cranberries
Any type of melon
Leeks
Tomatoes
String beans
Cucumbers
Squash
Not to mention literally thousands of other possibilities...
Fruit leather is pretty tasty, we (my sister & I) have eaten it since we were small children. I still buy apple & plum fruit leather all the time. Great camping food.
As to everything else, I have no further suggestions for you. That's all I have. |
Nilus Reynard
Doom Master of Beshaba, Hand of Despair.
P24 Hm CN
(2nd Edition AD&D) |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2019 : 11:18:20
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quote:
Originally posted by shades of eternity
Ever since Aurora's whole realms catalog, I worked on the assumption that food is kinda in the same boat as turn of the early 20th century just before refrigeration became common, at least in the big cities.
That seems rather advanced, but equivalent to early 20th century is at least closer to accurate for international trade in the Realms than the medieval mindset all too many people (and some less knowledgeable authors) imagine applies to the Realms.
Personally, I imagine that the levels of international trade in the Realms are around 19th century levels on Earth, in, as you say, big cities and anywhere with active shipping routes, but unlike historical Earth, this is happening without an Industrial Revolution and with contact with a 'New World' only very recent.
Aurora's Whole Realm Catalog posits magical teleportation, which is frankly an insane method of moving foodstuffs around, given that wizards capable of such powerful magics are exceedingly rare and can become fantastically rich in dozens of ways, which means that magically transported food will always be orders of magnitude more expensive than 'normal' food. It's the equivalent of Earth billionaires having rare delicacies flown to whereever they are with private jets and helicopters, not something that has any application to local cuisines.
quote:
Originally posted by shades of eternity
Food is mostly fairly localized, but it's possible to transport food from one end of the realms to another while preserving it (heck I'm surprised we don't have more wall of ice transports).
Basically, any foodstuff that requires the attention of a wizard, especially one of 5th level or higher (about the time wizards become worth thousands of gold pieces per month), will quickly become more expensive than gold.
Only in markets where there are significant numbers of buyers rich enough to eat something more valuable than gold is it worthwhile to spend that much to transport exotic foodstuffs there. The PCs I'm discussing are technically rich enough to do so, but since they didn't prepare any such transport ahead of time, they are limited to whatever market exists in King's Reach for exotic, unseasonable delicacies. So, it's likely that most of the food that was available for them to buy was actually locally grown (albeit certainly the best quality local food).
quote:
Originally posted by shades of eternity
Since jars are available through Aurora, pickling is possible as is available in the catalog, and a relatively cheap means to preserve.
One would imagine that jars are available in most cities and areas with trade with industrial centers, entirely independent of Aurora's.
quote:
Originally posted by shades of eternity
Spices have also spread from far off and exotic locations, as they in our world a means to spice up otherwise humdrum food (and after eating the provisions of create food and water after the 8th day, you want something to spice it up). Heck one of the reasons for New Amn and the Waterdeep colony's in Anchorome was a means to grow these spice and unusual crops.
I'm pretty sure Maize and Potatos are now available in Faerun because of how long contact has taken place, but it might be more of an Empires of the Sands thing.
After Anchorome and Maztica disappeared, they switched to trying to grow them on the Chult Peninsula.
I can also see the desired pleasure of a chef having prestidigitation in case he can't get his vaunted ingredients, but knows exactly what he wants.
There will also the changing of localized foods. Second to third generation Mazticans in Amn would be most likely have created a dish that would be the equivelent of ginger beef: a food inspired by their original homeland, but invented in their new home.
My game is set in 1373 DR. That's only twelve years after the Amnian 'discovery' of Maztica, so it's not like there are communities of Maztican immigrants in Faerun.
Potatoes, however, have canonically been grown in Faerun since long before Maztica was discovered. Ed Greenwood's original Realms didn't have an 'Old World' / 'New World' distinction between crops.
Unfortunately, the later addition of Maztica and TSR's (and later WotC's) lack of attention to consistent worldbuilding has made it very difficult to know which real-world crops exist in Faerun and which do not.
quote:
Originally posted by shades of eternity
Plus it should be fairly easy to do to do food preservation because
https://www.thevintagenews.com/2018/03/21/napoleon-food/
The technology is very available in the realms. The only reason it might not be because there might be a magic equivelent which sometimes stiffles technological innovation.
Unless I had an explicit statement in canon that canning exists in the Realms, I'd feel weird including it, as it technically is a later technological development than the steam engine, optical telegraph or the submarine and belongs to the same era as photography or automobiles with internal combustion engines.
The Realms are highly advanced in international trade, but various other technologies are in the 15th to 17th century range, with huge swathes of the Realms also being so backward and poor that they actually have little technology that did not exist in medieval Europe.
Various wild 'humanoid' races like orcs and goblins are effectively 'medieval' in technology, as are particularly poor 'barbarian' peoples like the Tuigan/Taangan, Nars, Reghedmen, Uthgardt, Rashemi and Raumviri.
quote:
Originally posted by shades of eternity
But with the Trade way stretching across the sword coast and hundreds of years of usage, there will be transplanting of food and innovation because of it.
Civilization has existed in Faerun for at least four times as long as it has on Earth. Any crop that grows anywhere on the mainland of Faerun has certainly spread to other areas of it, anywhere the climate allows it to thrive.
The difference between Toril and Earth, however, is that technology makes it possible to grow crops out of season and in a much wider range of climates, which contributes to us modern children of Earth having a very skewed idea of the availability and range of various crops.
In the northern Vast, the climate will be a certain way, in my opinion, probably close to the Earth climate of such Central European areas as Austria, Slovenia, Slovakia and the Czech Republic. That will, in turn, mean that without magic, only certain vegetables and fruit are available there in the spring and early summer.
Yes, magic can 'cheat' and either create them there or transport them from elsewhere, but it seems to me extremely unlikely that King's Reach has an existing market in magical foodstuffs or teleported exotic delicacies. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2019 : 09:42:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Cards77
Well there are several dozen suggestions here. I do not believe there is a "canon" for what kind of delicacies would be in the particular region at that particular time.
So I would just make your own. Baklava, candied dates, the possibilities are endless. Just do what you think fits your flavor of your game, maybe even make them in real life and serve to your group
The point is that there are, presumably, all sorts of canon clues about climate and terrain, which realistically would impact what kind of crops grow in a given region.
When I'm reading or otherwise consuming fiction, it bothers me a lot if the author didn't care enough about his setting to think through background details. Like, for example, having 20th century cuisines in a world where there is no technology to support the cheap sugar and artificially grown out-of-season crops that this requires.
Ed Greenwood cares enough about the Realms to think about this sort of thing, but various splat-books appear to sell much better than the kind of setting detail that I would like. Hopefully, however, the scribes of Candlekeep have more knowledge about the less marketable aspects of Ed's world than I can find in sourcebooks. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2019 : 13:54:52
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Some quick thoughts
I've made some decisions on what foodstuffs were available for sale in King's Reach when the PCs and their retinue stopped there to refresh their stocks.
Plums. The common plum (Prunus domestica) seems to flourish in most temperate regions and would absolutely grow in the Vast. In late Mirtul, it might not be the height of plum season, but early ones should be available.
Pears. Cultivated in cool temperate climates since the earliest days of humans on Earth, pears seem ideal for the Vast and they can even grow in the foothills and valleys of the Earthspur Mountains, just as pears grow in alpine countries on Earth. Again, late Mirtul is at the very beginning of their harvest, which might mean that they are a bit green, but probably available. A bonus is that the pears they bought in King's Reach will keep well, as for the first fortnight, the fruit are still ripening.
Cherries. Wild cherries (Prunus avium) were historically cultivated from Asia to Britain and should easily grow in the Vast. Mirtul also ought to be the start of cherry season in a temperate climate like the Vast.
Strawberries. While the well-known garden strawberry is an Early Modern era creation of humans on Earth (and therefore might or might not exist on Toril), wild strawberries (Fragaria vesca) have long grown in areas on Earth which seem climatically similar to the Vast and the Earthspur Mountains, such as the Balkans and the Alps.
Cranberries. The common cranberry (Vaccinium oxycoccos) or fenberry should grow well around Ylraphon and the Flooded Forest, for example. As they are harvested in the autumn, however, fresh cranberries are probably not available in King's Reach in the spring or early summer, though preserves, juice or other products may be. Interestingly, no technology is required to store cranberries frozen, so it might be possible for affluent gourmands living in places above the snowline to buy them from Ylraphon and store them in cold high places. I think that a noble NPC who lives in Kurth, Vurthan Aldimar (of the Tantras Aldimar), might have found his favorite tipple, a mixture of highly sweetened cranberry juice, clear corn liquor and glacial ice.
Any type of melon. From what I can tell, there are no types of melon cultivars commonly grown that seem likely to flourish north of Tsurlagol and Procampur and they would require some care even there. Not available, I decide.
Leeks. Multiple cultivars of the leek (Allium ampeloprasum) historically grew all over temperate Europe and seem plausible in the Vast as well.
Tomatoes. On Earth, a 'New World' crop that didn't exist in Europe before the discovery of the Americas. Is anyone aware of the canon position of tomatoes in the Forgotten Realms? Do they grow in the Heartlands (and elsewhere) or are they a new fruit from Maztica?
String beans. Same question as for tomatoes.
Cucumbers. Given that cucumber cultivars appear to have originated at one of the cradles of civilization on Earth and spread into Europe and Asia along with agriculture, I'm guessing it also grows anywhere in the Realms where climatically possible. Interestingly, the fondness of Roman emperors for cucumbers is responsible for the first greenhouses of which I'm aware, so... I guess rich communities in the Realms (like dwarven ones) wanting a wider selection of foodstuffs than are in season or can be grown locally might well use greenhouse technology even without electricity.
Squash. Same question as tomatoes. |
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shades of eternity
Learned Scribe
288 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2019 : 17:30:51
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before I respond, I have a question.
What year was Aurora's Whole Realms catalogue supposed to have been published?
I know it's during the 2nd edition era in the year 1992 (and believe there is some sort of relation between what year it is in the realms and published materials). |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2019 : 18:00:53
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quote:
Originally posted by shades of eternity
before I respond, I have a question.
What year was Aurora's Whole Realms catalogue supposed to have been published?
I know it's during the 2nd edition era in the year 1992 (and believe there is some sort of relation between what year it is in the realms and published materials).
I'm not sure of the exact Dale Reckoning date the first catalogue would have been published, but Aurora's Emporium flourished in the 1360s and was still going strong at 1370 DR. |
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shades of eternity
Learned Scribe
288 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2019 : 20:44:41
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If we use our real-world as an analogue, any new world food would probably be anomalies that Faerun would have no clue to actually prepare (I remember an old Black Adder episode where they thought you smoked potatoes and it's probably closer to the historical truth).
1492 set off the age of discovery, but Francis Drake introduced potatoes into England in 1580 so you can justify saying no new world imports for at least a century, barring adventurers of course.
I see nothing in the realms that says that granulated sugar occurred at all, much less at the rates historically.
I'd argue that cash crop cultivation would be escalated by the Sundering when Anarchrome/Maztica literally disappeared and they want/need their fix.
Tethyr has become a breadbasket of sorts though. Lands of intrigue list cherries, quinces, plums and all manner of berries grown there. I can see unsugared jams and jelly's being a major trade good from that area. Not sure about what they use for preservation though.
As for the Vaast, it's a hop, skip and a jump away from Sembia, so I'd imagine there are some serious naval trade routes in the sea of fallen stars.
So this means, amongst other things, barrel's of pickled fish (thank you PHB 2nd edition). :D
Working with the idea that one region away by land or sea would be relatively tradable:
Crackers
Fruit cakes
Hard Tack
Sourdough
Cheeses:
Arabellan Chedder
Chetessan Lotus Cheese
Death Cheese
Darmite Red is right on the edge of accessibility. Would leave that up to the GM.
Turmish Brick
Vihon Blanc
Ales and Beers:
Bitter Black
Wines:
Arabellian dry
Blood Wine
Fire wine might be - but serious edge case
Westgate Ruby
edit: plus some eastern europian food inferences
https://www.tripsavvy.com/traditional-eastern-european-foods-1501559
I'm assuming Cabbagerolls are a thing. :D
Hope that helps. :) |
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Edited by - shades of eternity on 16 Oct 2019 20:57:06 |
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Cards77
Senior Scribe
USA
745 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2019 : 21:26:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Some quick thoughts
I've made some decisions on what foodstuffs were available for sale in King's Reach when the PCs and their retinue stopped there to refresh their stocks.
Plums. The common plum (Prunus domestica) seems to flourish in most temperate regions and would absolutely grow in the Vast. In late Mirtul, it might not be the height of plum season, but early ones should be available.
Pears. Cultivated in cool temperate climates since the earliest days of humans on Earth, pears seem ideal for the Vast and they can even grow in the foothills and valleys of the Earthspur Mountains, just as pears grow in alpine countries on Earth. Again, late Mirtul is at the very beginning of their harvest, which might mean that they are a bit green, but probably available. A bonus is that the pears they bought in King's Reach will keep well, as for the first fortnight, the fruit are still ripening.
Cherries. Wild cherries (Prunus avium) were historically cultivated from Asia to Britain and should easily grow in the Vast. Mirtul also ought to be the start of cherry season in a temperate climate like the Vast.
Strawberries. While the well-known garden strawberry is an Early Modern era creation of humans on Earth (and therefore might or might not exist on Toril), wild strawberries (Fragaria vesca) have long grown in areas on Earth which seem climatically similar to the Vast and the Earthspur Mountains, such as the Balkans and the Alps.
Cranberries. The common cranberry (Vaccinium oxycoccos) or fenberry should grow well around Ylraphon and the Flooded Forest, for example. As they are harvested in the autumn, however, fresh cranberries are probably not available in King's Reach in the spring or early summer, though preserves, juice or other products may be. Interestingly, no technology is required to store cranberries frozen, so it might be possible for affluent gourmands living in places above the snowline to buy them from Ylraphon and store them in cold high places. I think that a noble NPC who lives in Kurth, Vurthan Aldimar (of the Tantras Aldimar), might have found his favorite tipple, a mixture of highly sweetened cranberry juice, clear corn liquor and glacial ice.
Any type of melon. From what I can tell, there are no types of melon cultivars commonly grown that seem likely to flourish north of Tsurlagol and Procampur and they would require some care even there. Not available, I decide.
Leeks. Multiple cultivars of the leek (Allium ampeloprasum) historically grew all over temperate Europe and seem plausible in the Vast as well.
Tomatoes. On Earth, a 'New World' crop that didn't exist in Europe before the discovery of the Americas. Is anyone aware of the canon position of tomatoes in the Forgotten Realms? Do they grow in the Heartlands (and elsewhere) or are they a new fruit from Maztica?
String beans. Same question as for tomatoes.
Cucumbers. Given that cucumber cultivars appear to have originated at one of the cradles of civilization on Earth and spread into Europe and Asia along with agriculture, I'm guessing it also grows anywhere in the Realms where climatically possible. Interestingly, the fondness of Roman emperors for cucumbers is responsible for the first greenhouses of which I'm aware, so... I guess rich communities in the Realms (like dwarven ones) wanting a wider selection of foodstuffs than are in season or can be grown locally might well use greenhouse technology even without electricity.
Squash. Same question as tomatoes.
Based on all the various canon (not including novels) if you canvas the Volos guides and such, MOSTLY everything available sticks to "old world" foods per my prior post, medieval
There ARE exceptions but they are noted as very rare like "tarbean tea" ie coffee being a super rare indulgent delicacy only served to the nobility and the like.
This is how I deal with it.
Use my post above for the foods available and create dishes you think would fit that region and then consider rare delicacies.
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2019 : 21:51:30
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quote:
Originally posted by shades of eternity
If we use our real-world as an analogue, any new world food would probably be anomalies that Faerun would have no clue to actually prepare (I remember an old Black Adder episode where they thought you smoked potatoes and it's probably closer to the historical truth).
1492 set off the age of discovery, but Francis Drake introduced potatoes into England in 1580 so you can justify saying no new world imports for at least a century, barring adventurers of course.
Eh, maybe. Keep in mind that in places like Ravens Bluff, gates to Earth have had enough of an impact for there to be 'patisseries' there, explicitly named for what Elminster says they call pastry bakeries 'in a far place indeed'.
The Realms have 40,000 years of recorded history, four times longer than any kind of human history we know about on Earth, and planewalkers and adventurers have probably brought an incredible profusion of ideas back in that time. There are deities who limit technological advancement, but they do not seem opposed to people bringing back recipes or merely the idea that they should use a given plant to flavor something.
That being said, the twelve years elapsed between the 'discovery' of Maztica and the events of my campaign are probably far too short for any Maztican crops to have become part of cuisines around the Inner Sea. Adventurous nobles and fad-driven merchant princes might experiment with imported exotics, but King's Reach or the Vast in general is not really somewhere I'd expect to find a huge market of Maztican delicacies.
That being said, I've found references to both potatoes and tomatoes in the Realms that obviously refer to crops that predate the 'discovery' of Maztica. Any suggestion in Aurora's Whole Realms Catalog that these exclusively exist in Faerun as Maztican imports is therefore likely an error (or a lie) perpetrated by the in-world writer of the catalog.
It's possible that Maztican cultivars are different in some way, but potatoes, for example, are a very common food in all the Heartlands and have been since long before 1361 DR.
Tomatoes, meanwhile, are mentioned as being pictured on the sigil of a realm in the Border Kingdoms and being grown in Goldenfields. While it is true that these could theoretically describe tomatoes transported from Maztica (there are no dates), it seems extremely unlikely, especially as the priests of Chauntea are said to be very knowledgeable about growing the tomatoes.
quote:
Originally posted by shades of eternity
I see nothing in the realms that says that granulated sugar occurred at all, much less at the rates historically.
I'd expect it to be much more expensive than we are used to, but Realmslore sources do mention sugared fruit, berries and even bread sprinkled with sugar (as a very common side dish). People in Ravens Bluff also apparently put sugar in tea.
quote:
Originally posted by shades of eternity
I'd argue that cash crop cultivation would be escalated by the Sundering when Anarchrome/Maztica literally disappeared and they want/need their fix.
Are you talking about something that happened in the history of the 1350s to 1370s DR Realms?
In my campaign, set in 1373 DR, nothing has happened to Maztica and no Sundering has occurred since the elvish catastrophe in the eighteenth millennia before the raising of the Standing Stone.
As I don't expect to ever play out a century of adventuring, no Sundering can be expected in my campaign, either.
quote:
Originally posted by shades of eternity
Tethyr has become a breadbasket of sorts though. Lands of intrigue list cherries, quinces, plums and all manner of berries grown there. I can see unsugared jams and jelly's being a major trade good from that area. Not sure about what they use for preservation though.
Sugar can be processed from beets, among other things. It's just much more expensive than if you have a massive source of sugar cane and a rapidly industrializing process of converting it into granulated sugar.
The Realmsian diet, at least for anyone other than nobility and merchant princes, will be much lower in sugar than a modern diet, but there is no reason that there can't be some used. Especially when it's such a good method for preserving fruit and berries.
quote:
Originally posted by shades of eternity
As for the Vaast, it's a hop, skip and a jump away from Sembia, so I'd imagine there are some serious naval trade routes in the sea of fallen stars.
So this means, amongst other things, barrel's of pickled fish (thank you PHB 2nd edition). :D
Working with the idea that one region away by land or sea would be relatively tradable:
Crackers
Fruit cakes
Hard Tack
Sourdough
Cheeses:
Arabellan Chedder
Chetessan Lotus Cheese
Death Cheese
Darmite Red is right on the edge of accessibility. Would leave that up to the GM.
Turmish Brick
Vihon Blanc
Ales and Beers:
Bitter Black
Wines:
Arabellian dry
Blood Wine
Fire wine might be - but serious edge case
Westgate Ruby
All good points and, remember, the transport of something a mile overland by ox cart or wagon is about as expensive as eight miles by river and 64 miles on an oceanic shipping route.
So, any foodstuff located close to a port on the Inner Sea is likely to be 'closer' in economic terms to Ravens Bluff and Tantras than something that grows 50 miles inland. Pretty much all the food in King's Reach that isn't strictly locally grown will be transported up the River Vesper and may have originally come from the Dalelands or Sembia.
quote:
Originally posted by shades of eternity
edit: plus some eastern europian food inferences
https://www.tripsavvy.com/traditional-eastern-european-foods-1501559
I'm assuming Cabbagerolls are a thing. :D
Hope that helps. :)
Yeah, I'm planning on sneaking in a lot of influences from Austrian, Bohemian and Balkan food for the area around King's Reach, given the probable similarity in terrain and climate.
And yes, this helps, thanks a lot. It always helps to have someone to bounce ideas off. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2019 : 22:04:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Cards77
Based on all the various canon (not including novels) if you canvas the Volos guides and such, MOSTLY everything available sticks to "old world" foods per my prior post, medieval
There ARE exceptions but they are noted as very rare like "tarbean tea" ie coffee being a super rare indulgent delicacy only served to the nobility and the like.
This is how I deal with it.
Use my post above for the foods available and create dishes you think would fit that region and then consider rare delicacies.
Well, potatoes are mentioned in a huge number of Realmslore sources, clearly pre-date the 'discovery' of Maztica and are a cheap, common food consumed by normal people in the sources.
And in the 1360s DR, i.e. in the years immediately following the 'discovery' of Maztica, the priests of Goldenfields, outside Waterdeep, are not only growing tomatoes along with their carrots (with neither treated as more remarkable than the other), but are specifically mentioned as having a remarkable depth of knowledge about methods of agriculture suitable for various crops, including the tomatoes. That seems to make it very implausible that tomatoes didn't exist in Faerun before 1361 DR.
Also, there does exist coffee from Maztica, but coffee also comes from other areas, like the Shining South, Utter East and even Anauroch. |
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shades of eternity
Learned Scribe
288 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2019 : 23:38:37
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Saw this and it kinda reminded me what the gray forest would be like:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUf10mWmwTs
not technically culinary related, but can you imagine some of the forest stuff that would be harvested, to say the insane bio-diversity for food stocks? |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2019 : 00:09:49
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quote:
Originally posted by shades of eternity
Saw this and it kinda reminded me what the gray forest would be like:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUf10mWmwTs
not technically culinary related, but can you imagine some of the forest stuff that would be harvested, to say the insane bio-diversity for food stocks?
Well, climate-wise, the Grey Forest seems to be quite a bit further to the south in Faerun than Bialowieza Forest is in Europe. As in, Tsurlagol and Procampur are probably similar in terms of weather to the coastal cities of Croatia, like Split or Dubrovnik. It's well over five hundred miles of north-south distance from a place where the climate matches the southern Vast to a place similar to the Bialowieza Forest, i.e. on a similar latitude as Berlin, Irktusk, Newfoundland or Alaska.
I'd imagine that the Rawlinswood was a lot better Realms analogue for Bialowieza Forest, as that would get you a similar climate. If you want to look closer to King's Reach, the northerly parts of Cormanthyr, closest to the Moonsea, as well as the woods on the eastern side of the River Lisen, might have some similarities. |
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Edited by - Icelander on 17 Oct 2019 00:11:23 |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2382 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2019 : 08:12:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
clearly pre-date the 'discovery' of Maztica
In context of Netheril dabbling in space travel, quotes are very much called for here, indeed.
So let's consider what this does really mean. Amnians were not the first people from Faerun who knew that Maztica exists. They were the first humans from Faerun who visited Maztica, created permanent bases there and didn't go native (yet). Remove one of 3 criteria, and we can reasonably expect that someone was there and did that.
Thus, Netheril could have plants from Maztica. But the Netherese agriculture was destroyed, except what exodus groups took with them, and successfully grow wherever they settled.
Thus any of those may fall anywhere in range from lost and forgotten to widespread all over the continent ever since.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
While it is true that these could theoretically describe tomatoes transported from Maztica (there are no dates), it seems extremely unlikely, especially as the priests of Chauntea are said to be very knowledgeable about growing the tomatoes.
Well, it can be interpreted in different ways. The priests of Chauntea are said to be very knowledgeable about growing anything.  And it's more noteworthy when the subject is sufficiently uncommon that not many people are so knowledgeable about it.
We know there are places when tomatoes are definitely not treated as exotic or expensive, but they still may be a regional thing. Depends on how well people learned to store them, too. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2019 : 21:46:30
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
In context of Netheril dabbling in space travel, quotes are very much called for here, indeed.
So let's consider what this does really mean. Amnians were not the first people from Faerun who knew that Maztica exists. They were the first humans from Faerun who visited Maztica, created permanent bases there and didn't go native (yet). Remove one of 3 criteria, and we can reasonably expect that someone was there and did that.
Thus, Netheril could have plants from Maztica. But the Netherese agriculture was destroyed, except what exodus groups took with them, and successfully grow wherever they settled.
Thus any of those may fall anywhere in range from lost and forgotten to widespread all over the continent ever since.
Sure, that's not implausible, but there is an even larger issue.
On Earth, the reason for the 'Old World'/'New World' distinction in flora and fauna is that the continents that once formed the super-continent of Pangea have been separated for hundreds of millions of years, meaning that different plant or animal species have had millions of years to evolve into very distinct specimens.
On Toril, the separation of Maztica and Faerun dates back only just over thirty millennia. That's about 1/10,000th of the time and it is, crucially, far too short a time to explain extensive species differentiation through normal biological evolution. Aside from deliberate genetic manipulation through selective breeding, there is really little difference between species as they existed 33,000 years ago and their descendants today.
So, barring magic or intelligent design, we shouldn't really expect Toril to have different flora and fauna in the different continents that were actually connected only a geological and evolutionary biological blink of an eye ago.
Honestly, it's most plausible that potatoes were already being grown in various dragon-ruled realms of 33,000 years ago, both in areas that ended up in Faerun and Maztica. And, frankly, the same might apply for a lot of other crops that on Earth are 'New World' crops only, as long as the climate was favorable to them.
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
Well, it can be interpreted in different ways. The priests of Chauntea are said to be very knowledgeable about growing anything. And it's more noteworthy when the subject is sufficiently uncommon that not many people are so knowledgeable about it.
We know there are places when tomatoes are definitely not treated as exotic or expensive, but they still may be a regional thing. Depends on how well people learned to store them, too.
Well, tomatoes might be a regional thing, but Ed Greenwood seems to suggest that they are a normal part of garden greens in the Realms, often being sold by haflings to humans wherever they live. |
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shades of eternity
Learned Scribe
288 Posts |
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Vast Crops, Cuisine and Delicacies
