| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Storyteller Hero |
Posted - 23 Mar 2019 : 23:32:04
I haven't been able to find any official announcements or 5e references about the continent of Laerakond (also known as Returned Abeir in 4th edition FR), so I've been analyzing the circumstances that might relate to whether the continent would have stayed or not during the Second Sundering.
First, the case of Tymanther, which (partially) stayed. Tymanther had known footholds of Toril's deities, particularly the church of Bahamut, at least by the 1470s DR, so there was definite interest in keeping its peoples on Toril. The god Enlil apparently interrupted Tymanther's transfer to Abeir during the re-separation process as well.
Merchants from Tarmalune in Laerakond had started establishing trade with the Sword Coast at least as early as the 1470s DR, according to Neverwinter Campaign Setting (4e). Missionaries of the gods in Faerun were likely to travel to Laerakond as a result of the trade between continents. A lot can happen in the decade following that point in time.
Dwarves and orcs could apparently be found on Laerakond, which would spark interest from the dwarven and orcish pantheons. The draconic pantheon would be interested in the dragons and dragonborn on Laerakond as well.
The elves of Evermeet, just north of Laerakond, might have spread their faith into the continent as a number of them would likely have explored the "mysterious continent" that had appeared so close to the elves' island.
The primordials sleeping in Laerakond were relatively few and dormant, seemingly content to rest away from the potential conflicts of Abeir, where Dawn Titans remain active.
If the faiths of Toril had spread throughout Laerakond during the century between the Spellplague and the Second Sundering, it's possible that either Ao would leave the continent alone or multiple gods with footholds within Laerakond might have intervened.
That's what I've got so far in trying to figure out what could have happened to Laerakond. It might also be that Laerakond was broken up into an archipelago with a partial exile back to Abeir.
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| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 07 Apr 2019 : 20:40:41
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
On that, in Abeir I'm saying that that area the Shaar came to occupy was the Underchasm in Abeir. So, in Abeir, it wasn't occupied land. I'm also having the areas of Chessenta/Threskel/Chondath that I'm listing as "transferred" (that many people thought were simply destroyed)
Because originally most of those places were destroyed. That was their intent in 4e. AFAIK, of those places you mention, the only one that was stated in 4e canon that was transferred/exchanged to Abeir was Chondath, that was exchanged with Akanūl. Then, they retconed that all those places were "transferred" for the Sundering's plot.
As for the Underchasm, we'd be ignoring a lot of canon there... but if we going by this idea, then you'd have to take into account this: the Shaar territories that were sent to Abeir may not have returned to Toril during the Sundering, as the Underchasm was filled by Grumbar, not exchanged back (like Unther, for instance). You may either chose to ignore the novels or device something around that.
As for your solutions, I like some of them, but I feel that those nations thrived in a land that doens't allow this kind of success. I mean, I know Tymanther (for instance) thrived after it was throw into Toril, but:
1. Toril is a more friendlier world than Abeir. People is more open to trade, and there aren't tyrants trying to conquer the world on a regular basis (and the few that do exist are foiled by good nations such as Cormyrnations that do not exist in Abeir: all that world is divided between dragon overlords and a few oppresive primordials)
2. The whole of Toril hasn't changed because of Tymanther. Heck, not even Faerūn has changed in any meaningful way (culturally, magically, etc.) because there is a nation of dragonborn out there. Tymanther is all but unknown in lands beyond its inmediate vicinity, and even within its home region is strungling to survive (because Unther).
The same applies to Laerakond, Akanūl, etc... (though, those places have it easy, as they don't have an enemy bent in exterminating them).
Why, then, the Faerūnians in Abeir should fare better in a land that is dozens of times more lethal and oppresive than Toril? For all we know, even powerful Halruaa had a hard time while on Abeir. This should be our model for the fate of the other nations there, to be faithful to the setting's flavor.
I feel that if we are going to continue this, we should open another topic. This one is for ideas about Laerakond.
Sounds good, and I've been considering reducing the footprint of my red wizards in the Shaar severely to occupy mostly the areas around the cliffside city of Peleveran and the edges of the landrise. Other areas may have Shaaryans or escaped Untherites/Chessentans/Mulhorandi etc.. in them. I'm thinking as well that I like the idea of having the red wizards having a focus on earth, air, and water based magic in the Shaar as well, such that maybe they learn a little more about earthmotes, and perhaps the edges of the landrise are dotted with such. Gotta go can some apple butter, but when I get back, I'd love to open a new topic and discuss options. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 07 Apr 2019 : 18:26:28
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
On that, in Abeir I'm saying that that area the Shaar came to occupy was the Underchasm in Abeir. So, in Abeir, it wasn't occupied land. I'm also having the areas of Chessenta/Threskel/Chondath that I'm listing as "transferred" (that many people thought were simply destroyed)
Because originally most of those places were destroyed. That was their intent in 4e. AFAIK, of those places you mention, the only one that was stated in 4e canon that was transferred/exchanged to Abeir was Chondath, that was exchanged with Akanūl. Then, they retconed that all those places were "transferred" for the Sundering's plot.
As for the Underchasm, we'd be ignoring a lot of canon there... but if we going by this idea, then you'd have to take into account this: the Shaar territories that were sent to Abeir may not have returned to Toril during the Sundering, as the Underchasm was filled by Grumbar, not exchanged back (like Unther, for instance). You may either chose to ignore the novels or device something around that.
As for your solutions, I like some of them, but I feel that those nations thrived in a land that doens't allow this kind of success. I mean, I know Tymanther (for instance) thrived after it was throw into Toril, but:
1. Toril is a more friendlier world than Abeir. People is more open to trade, and there aren't tyrants trying to conquer the world on a regular basis (and the few that do exist are foiled by good nations such as Cormyrnations that do not exist in Abeir: all that world is divided between dragon overlords and a few oppresive primordials)
2. The whole of Toril hasn't changed because of Tymanther. Heck, not even Faerūn has changed in any meaningful way (culturally, magically, etc.) because there is a nation of dragonborn out there. Tymanther is all but unknown in lands beyond its inmediate vicinity, and even within its home region is strungling to survive (because Unther).
The same applies to Laerakond, Akanūl, etc... (though, those places have it easy, as they don't have an enemy bent in exterminating them).
Why, then, the Faerūnians in Abeir should fare better in a land that is dozens of times more lethal and oppresive than Toril? For all we know, even powerful Halruaa had a hard time while on Abeir. This should be our model for the fate of the other nations there, to be faithful to the setting's flavor.
I feel that if we are going to continue this, we should open another topic. This one is for ideas about Laerakond. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 06 Apr 2019 : 23:57:10
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Here's what I see as the disconnect. I will say gods are not omniscient about everything happening in their planes. I would say the same thing about Primordials. Especially primordials that have gone to sleep.
I agree with this. However, this would apply to places such as Maztica or Halruaa. But places such as Mourktar or Chondath ended up way too close to Shyr, where there is an active primordial since before the Spellplague (Karshimis), for gods there to go doing what they want without being smashed on the spot, and for humans there to be doing their stuff without being enslaved by the Shyran genasi.
And as far as we know, the Mulhorandi and Untherans who survived the trip to Abeir were indeed enslaved by the Shyrans. Which mean that places such as Mourktar where taken over by Karshimis' forces in the end.
Gotcha, so your concerns aren't necessarily with the far off lands, its with possibly some of the stuff that I'm considering with the Shaar. I can respect that, but let me lay out some things, and lets see if there's a way to improve it.
On that, in Abeir I'm saying that that area the Shaar came to occupy was the Underchasm in Abeir. So, in Abeir, it wasn't occupied land. I'm also having the areas of Chessenta/Threskel/Chondath that I'm listing as "transferred" (that many people thought were simply destroyed) as either
(step 1) falling to Shyr and its people fleeing as refugees to other Chessentan cities such as Cimbar and Soorenar.
(step 2) the forces of Shyr (mortal forces) are sent to take Cimbar and Soorenar, but the gods Leira and Savras (in mortal avatar form possessing some humans, so not at full god power) have infiltrated the Tower Terrible in Soorenar, and they have managed to bring over Velsharoon also in mortal avatar form possessing a human female. Velsharoon taps into the spirit magic of this world (for necromancy is a similar art form) and calls upon local spirits of the dead to protect the people residing in Cimbar and Soorenar. During this time, the forces of Shyr are stretched thin capturing other territories, enslaving Mulhorand and Unther, etc...
(step 3) the people in Cimbar and Soorenar realize they're in danger, and they flee south into the Shaar and eventually come upon the ancient cliffside city of Peleverai built into the side of the landrise. The city has some kind of natural resistance to magical scrying, and there's also a strange local power source similar to the Athora of Thay. Some whisper that this local power source is the source of the collapse of Bhaerynden (aka now the Great Rift) and the creation of the underground river that flow from the rift lake and out the side of the land rise right next to Peleveran. Some whisper as well that this power source is also the source of a little known deity (primordial?) known as Khass who is a "rain god" of the Shaar (from the Complete Barbarian's Handbook). (homebrew, I'm having Khass known as a lot of different names by different Shaaryan tribes, Enku, Enkhassu, Khaasu, and Khanu).
(step 4) after a few decades and working with the enclaves in Maztica, Anchorome, etc... the area in the Shaar actually begins to make more traction.
(step 3) magic stabilizes. The go |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 06 Apr 2019 : 01:38:41
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Here's what I see as the disconnect. I will say gods are not omniscient about everything happening in their planes. I would say the same thing about Primordials. Especially primordials that have gone to sleep.
I agree with this. However, this would apply to places such as Maztica or Halruaa. But places such as Mourktar or Chondath ended up way too close to Shyr, where there is an active primordial since before the Spellplague (Karshimis), for gods there to go doing what they want without being smashed on the spot, and for humans there to be doing their stuff without being enslaved by the Shyran genasi.
And as far as we know, the Mulhorandi and Untherans who survived the trip to Abeir were indeed enslaved by the Shyrans. Which mean that places such as Mourktar where taken over by Karshimis' forces in the end. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 01 Apr 2019 : 22:18:53
Here's what I see as the disconnect. I will say gods are not omniscient about everything happening in their planes. I would say the same thing about Primordials. Especially primordials that have gone to sleep. Also, when I say a weave... I'm more or less saying "a bunch of interconnected lines of power... ley lines if you will... magical plumbing... or magical electrical lines". So, in essence, mortals from Toril setup a "weave" in that they learn how to harness raw magical power and adapt it. Within range of some of these things they can work magic in ways that are familiar to them. This might be comparable to a bunch of bees building a nest within the walls of a neighbors house (read Torilian land moved to Abeir) and expecting the neighbor down the street to realize its happening. In comparison to their power, its minute.
Also, as I was describing before, initially it might be that arcane casters are taking weeks to memorize all their spells if they're high level, and they can blow them all in a day. So while its a "weave" its not the equivalent of Mystra's weave (when these spellcasters return to Toril, they'll be amazed at "how easy magic is to access", except for those who had existed on both worlds). Some spellcasters may have even learned to emply "worldfire" in which they learned some means to channel power from Toril while still in Abeir (see Ed's article in dragon for more on worldfire).
The same concept goes for divine casters, in which they're not nearly casting spells willy nilly like they are on Toril using those priestess rules. The gods too that get transferred over, at first they should be amazingly weak and dependent on getting worshippers going to survive. But even an amazingly weak group of gods challenged by a mortal dragon might stand a very good chance of survival. If they're sticking to their "home turf"... i.e. staying where their worshippers are in lands native to Toril, then perhaps its not setting off enough alarm bells that any primordials are immediately rising up from their millenia long sleep to affect them. One of the ideas that I had with the weave development is that the gods of magic are helping the mortals extend this weave, but they're doing it via sacrifice. In other words worshippers create a "node" of some sort that can "tap" into raw magic and "convert" it into the weave... not anything huge... consider it like an adapter turning DC power into AC power. Its great where its available, but not world breaking. The gods then accept this sacrifice and actually go "plant" it in the transferred lands. Slowly they build up a "weave"/"network" that simply makes it easier for casters to access magic again.... not as easily as on Toril, but not so amazingly hard that it takes an entire day for a moderately powerful spellcaster to replenish spells.
By doing this, we can have people in Abeir that weren't overpowered by the existing denizens any more than the people who transferred from Abeir to Toril weren't slaughtered either. Perhaps near the end of the spellplague/arrival of the sundering the primordials of Abeir did begin to wake up more to the Torilians there. Maybe they even found themselves weak from their long sleep. That could work into a decent story as well, but honestly I think it might work best if the primordials awaken slowly and interact via servants. Maybe have one or two that might awaken fully, and maybe a couple gods die. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 31 Mar 2019 : 23:40:13
Well, that depends on your approach to the primordials. For instance, I use the canon approach (well, 4e canon, but it seems 5e lore about primordials remains unchanged). In canon, primordials are physical beings, tied to the physical matter and energy of the Elemental Chaos (and the Elemental Planes, in 5e). Unlike gods, who are conceptual beings tied to the conceptual Outer Planes, and depend, need and change according to the mortals beliefs. The primordials are so physical that they are linked to their worlds of origin and usually cannot move across the multiverse, unlike true gods that can spread across the multiverse. Meaning, the primordials of Abeir-Toril are unique to Abeir-Toril, the primordials of Nentir Vale are unique to Nentir Vale, and so on. Unlike gods, is really rare for them to move between crystal spheres. If you want, you can read more about this in Heroes of the Elemental Chaos (a 4e sourcebook).
So, even if mortals believe and want a Weave, the primordials of Abeir will not be affected by this belief. The only thing they will care about is whether this benefits them or not. And it does no benefit them to allow their enemies to get stronger by creating a Weave.
Now, dont get me wrong. Im not dismissing your idea. But I dont want another Faerūnians go to Maztica either. I mean, when the Amnians went to Maztica, somehow the Faerūnians were superior to the Maztican cuz reasons (to the point that even the Maztican magic systems are weaker when compared to the Faeūnian one
) and thrived in a completely different and hostile ambient cuz reasons. Heck, even the major villains from the novels were Faerūnian, because Maztica had to be weaker even in that regard. This makes no sense for me.
Likewise, that a bunch of Faerūnians go to Abeir, and automatically thrive and overpower the denizens of a totally alien world with different rules to that of Toril, makes no sense either. I mean, Tymanther and Akanūl barely are known outside the Sea of Fallen Stars area, and they had to work really hard for almost 100 years to achieve this. Its logical to assume that any Faerūnian nation thriving on Abeir would have done it in the same way, and would have accomplished it in a similar amount of time. Add to this the differences of power between primordials and gods, and we have a lot of work to do if we want to avoid giving Abeir the Maztica treatment.
And we dont know if Mystra III would be happy with this development (according to Ed, she is more picky and strict than the former Mystrasshe is fed up of being the Kenny of D&D). After all, there must be a reason why the other two Mystras and Mystril didnt expanded the Weave into Abeir before, even when they were always aware of the Abeiran flux of raw magic. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 31 Mar 2019 : 17:59:39
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
The grook with that idea is that it makes no sense to me. I mean, most of these gods are minor deities, and most primordials can easily overpower 3 to 5 greater deities fighting alone. None of these gods has a chance to survive a single primordial, even banding together.
You may point to "Gilgeam", but this Gilgeam was just a lucky guy who stole a few artifacts Graz'tz was interested in, and got a demon army. Without this army, Gilgeam would have had a dog's dead somewhere in Shyr. Even with the demon army, Namshita said that Gilgeam's chance of having won that battle wasn't 100%. Gilgeam may have got a dog's dead even with that army. Gilgeam's ass got literally saved by the Sundering.
So, I cannot picture how those gods would have been left to their own devices on Abeir, the world where the primordials reign supreme. I'm pretty sure they are still bitter for their defeat in the Dawn War, and I cannot picture Karshimis (a primordial active since before the Spellplague) not smashing any puny minor god trying to revive another gods on his turf. Or how those gods' worshipers may have survived a dragon attack long enough to create a cult big enough to give a god power to rival Karshimis (I'm reading the Rogue Dragons novels, and seeing all the chaos the dragons of Toril caused, I cannot picture an army of Faerūnians killing a single dragon of Abeir, who are stronger than their Torilian counterparts)
For this particular idea to work for me, I need to device really good explanations that makes sense lorewise.
You may have point in sending gods to Abeir, but I cannot picture them thriving there. Maybe some gods have influence there, but always in limited ways. The same kind of influence a god of Oerth would have on Toril.
Something like making a Weave there would not be abided by the Primordials, simply because it makes no sense. I mean, they gain nothing from that, as they don't need a Weave to cast magic. Why they would allow something that would make their enemies stronger? Even Mystra chose not to do it herself before the Spellplague, when she has some conection with the flux of raw magic in Abeir since always (according to Ed).
This makes me wonder if Lurue is a primordial...
Nothing says the primordials even really awoke to challenge these gods. Also, the primordials USED to be very powerful (and power levels probably varied by individual). They weakened without worshippers and their own mounts (the dragons) took some of them out. They went to sleep, ostensibly to survive on what energies they had stored up. As I was saying before, it may have been that these deities were sucked over, and no great god war got started because it was such a short time (granted 100 years sounds like a lot of time to a mortal, but to a primordial that's asleep, they may not have noticed the gods until they managed to escape). The ruler of Shyr might have been a threat, but if we propose the idea that say he'd have to take on a whole Metahel pantheon consisting of maybe 15 gods or so if he provoked one... he might let sleeping dogs lie. Then again, he may have had enough problems on his hands that he didn't actually delve into a pantheon of gods appearing on the other side of the world.
On the creation of a weave and whether the primordials would allow it, I posit another idea. Mortals have the power of will. Mortals wanted it. Mortals build it. The gods HELP the mortals build it. The gods GUIDE the mortals to build it. But ultimately its the will of the mortals getting it done. Even gods and primordials "must" bend to the will of mortals to some degree, despite how they may act about being all powerful. A lot of things are more bluster and lies to encourage BELIEF in the power of a being (or perhaps one of the best phrases I can relate is one by Ed that says ROUGHLY "Everyone lies, and gods are simply the best at it"... someone else can give the exact quote). It also starts out small and insignificant and localized enough to not draw attention, but through mortal will and effort, expands into new areas. Where it starts out in is "lands under the sway of gods" which may help hide this weave from the primordials. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 31 Mar 2019 : 17:40:25
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
some believe that the red knight was in Abeir and not Toril...
Is this something official? Or something you developed for your campaign? If is official, can you point me to the source?
Not official. The concept I have going here is one of uncertainty on the part of the mortals of the world. Basically, my Metahel worship a modified Norse Pantheon, and in it is a goddess Sifya modeled after Sif, goddess of "excellence and skill in battle". Sif was noted also as a "red goddess" (something to do with rowan berries/trees which were special to her, and which are related to real world magical beliefs). So, either the red knight was in Abeir and so was Sifya OR Sifya was posing as the red knight whenever Faerunians called to her OR there actually is some kind of link between Sifya and the Red Knight. The truth behind the matter is what someone wants to make of it.
In somewhat similar ways, I give descriptions of Thoros that could link him to various different Faerunian gods (such as Tempos
a heresy that those who link Sifya to the red knight particularly note... or even deities such as Talos, with whom he shares many traits and who was known absent from Toril). Other gods such as Lathander having a linkage to the God Faerthandir of the Metahel, Helm to Hemdahl, Anachtar to Tyr/Anachtyr, Leira to Alaeralie, Siamorphe to Snoedramorphe, Eldunna to an odd combination of both Eldath and Sune, Magnaer to Magnar the Bear, Valigor the Runtborn Giant to Valigan Thirdborn, Skaragos to Garagos, etc... Many of these gods were gone from Toril entirely during this timeframe, but others were rumored to still be there. There won't be an absolute statement that any were X or Y for the most part, but the idea is that the worshippers saw a similar deity with a very similar name, and so they simply believed that say Faerthandir IS Lathander, that Leira IS Alaeralie. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 31 Mar 2019 : 05:58:30
quote:
some believe that the red knight was in Abeir and not Toril...
Is this something official? Or something you developed for your campaign? If is official, can you point me to the source? |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 31 Mar 2019 : 05:05:58
The grook with that idea is that it makes no sense to me. I mean, most of these gods are minor deities, and most primordials can easily overpower 3 to 5 greater deities fighting alone. None of these gods has a chance to survive a single primordial, even banding together.
You may point to "Gilgeam", but this Gilgeam was just a lucky guy who stole a few artifacts Graz'tz was interested in, and got a demon army. Without this army, Gilgeam would have had a dog's dead somewhere in Shyr. Even with the demon army, Namshita said that Gilgeam's chance of having won that battle wasn't 100%. Gilgeam may have got a dog's dead even with that army. Gilgeam's ass got literally saved by the Sundering.
So, I cannot picture how those gods would have been left to their own devices on Abeir, the world where the primordials reign supreme. I'm pretty sure they are still bitter for their defeat in the Dawn War, and I cannot picture Karshimis (a primordial active since before the Spellplague) not smashing any puny minor god trying to revive another gods on his turf. Or how those gods' worshipers may have survived a dragon attack long enough to create a cult big enough to give a god power to rival Karshimis (I'm reading the Rogue Dragons novels, and seeing all the chaos the dragons of Toril caused, I cannot picture an army of Faerūnians killing a single dragon of Abeir, who are stronger than their Torilian counterparts)
For this particular idea to work for me, I need to device really good explanations that makes sense lorewise.
You may have point in sending gods to Abeir, but I cannot picture them thriving there. Maybe some gods have influence there, but always in limited ways. The same kind of influence a god of Oerth would have on Toril.
Something like making a Weave there would not be abided by the Primordials, simply because it makes no sense. I mean, they gain nothing from that, as they don't need a Weave to cast magic. Why they would allow something that would make their enemies stronger? Even Mystra chose not to do it herself before the Spellplague, when she has some conection with the flux of raw magic in Abeir since always (according to Ed).
This makes me wonder if Lurue is a primordial... |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 31 Mar 2019 : 04:26:38
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Or from the bodies of fallen gods. Most primordials are stronger that even greater deities. That's why the gods banded togheter in groups of 3 to 5 during to Dawn War to face just a single primordial, and why most primordials were sealed instead of killed during that war; and why Ao deemed the creation of Abeir a necessety after the gods won: the few remaining primordials were still a threat for the gods (Entropy was used as a deterrent for the whole Faerūnian pantheon, for instance). So, in a conflict between gods and primordials, the gods are always on the losing side.
Even if those dead gods and primordials were later restored to life during the Sundering, is posible that the corpses of their former incarnations remained. And that the memory of their temporal dead haunts them still.
One option too is that many of the gods that people assumed were dead during the spellplague years and which have returned... were in Abeir. For instance, what if most of the gods of magic were in Abeir? What if some of the gods not traditionally thought of as gods of magic, became "gods of magic" while on Abeir. By that I mean let's throw out the idea that Savras, Leira, Deneir (as a god of glyphs, symbols, spellbooks, etc...), Karsus, Finder (as a god of bardic magic), and possibly Velsharoon (I got a whole story in mind for that, revolving around Velsharoon and Mellifleur... thus the "Velsharoon" slain by the Simbul may not have been "Velsharoon") and others were all in Abeir working to restore a weave there. Maybe even some gods from other pantheons POSED as Faerunians gods to Faerunians in order to get their worship (for instance, some believe that the red knight was in Abeir and not Toril... but maybe it was a goddess of the Metahel posing as the red knight... or maybe there's a deeper secret there). While in Abeir, maybe this version of the red knight also became a "god of magic" by becoming a "goddess of spell strategy".
So, the reason for me bring this all up is that in essence, they weren't "brought back to life by Ao". They were instead coming back to Toril with the sundering. Also, maybe some gods who had "died" in Toril were "resurrected" with the aid of other gods and their followers while on Abeir in order to replenish their own numbers to prepare for a primordial strike (and maybe that attack never happened, because the primordials were slowly waking up, and a mere century wasn't long enough for them to come fully awake. In fact, maybe certain gods of magic (ahem... Velsharoon..) and what they actually control were key to bringing "dead gods" back. Maybe other gods of similar bent who were stripped from the Torilian pantheons (such as Kiaransalee) were also brought back because of being able to help. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 31 Mar 2019 : 04:05:40
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Plane Shift: Ixalan is a good example of pre-Columbian fantasy cultures well done. I guess that document is a good guide to create a Maztica that has a Pre-Columbian flavor without making it "not-colonial LatinAmerica but with elves".
https://media.wizards.com/2018/downloads/magic/plane-shift_ixalan.pdf
Definitely agree, and I'm looking at some of that more for Katashaka. The imagery in that is wonderful. One of the big things I'm wanting to see in some of the undeveloped areas is to lessen human influence and instead give it to beast folk races. For instance, up in Anchorome, maybe farther north there's a lot of forests. What if these forests are filled with hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of Kercpa who are basically savage defenders of the wild (Kercpa are basically sentient squirrels who are literally the size of squirrels). Maybe there's a fox folk, a coyote folk, hybsils, various remnants of the aearee, bear folk who are essentially relatives of Quaggoths that never descended into the underdark, etc... Then how do we make these beast folk not just humans that look different? |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 31 Mar 2019 : 00:04:31
quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Also bear in mind, that in those places, they've had 100 years in Abeir, so they may also be coming back changed. Populations may have become more savvy or even changed races entirely, etc... So, yeah, I'd agree, this opens up a lot of possibilities. Exactly how to deal with them is the question, but I can say most people weren't happy with the direct correlation to the Americas that was done. But we also don't want to see the place become just Faerun 2.0.
The gods of Anchorome/Maztica could have traveled together with the peoples of Anchorome/Maztica, in which case there could have been some conflict with the primordials in Abeir, and the people may be advancing their culture with materials taken from the bodies of fallen primordials.
That is in fact my take on the area, which is a little different from Seethyr's. One twist to that is that I believe Ubtao IS Qotal, and Ubtao IS a primordial. If you look at most of the other children of Maztica, they could all easily be called primordials (Kukul = sky, Maztica = Earth, Qotal = Air/wind, Azul = Rain, Plutoq = earth/stone, Tezca = Sun/Fire, Eha = Wind, Watil = Wood/Plants, Nula = Animals, Zaltec = Bloodthirsty animals & the end of life). The one who might be hard to explain away is Kiltzi. So, they may be Primordials who reappeared to their worshippers AT TIMES to defend them or guide them, or simply to encourage their worship.
Along these same lines, I think the great spirits of Anchorome might also have appeared to their worshippers, and I've been developing a pantheon for the metahel which would also have been with their people while in Abeir. Along similar lines, I'm doing something similar with some of the Untheric deities and the Mulan people who transferred over (which remember, prior to the ToT, all of these deities were manifestations on the world). I've also been developing beings of power for Katashaka to have worshipped (whether they were gods, primordials, archfey, primal spirits, etc... might vary from individual to individual).
One of the chief things that I'm pushing as an idea is that there were no CLERICS while on Abeir. There were PRIESTS ala this handy idea (Priestess: Ancient World Divine Class) made by someone else on DM's Guild. Link Below
https://www.dmsguild.com/product/192760/Priestess-Ancient-World-Divine-Class?term=priestess+ancient+&filters=45469_0_0_0_0_0_0_0
Its in essence a divine spellcaster who ONLY gets spells by sacrificing to an idol that represents some linkage to their god. So, the gods NEEDED worship while in Abeir, and they couldn't grant a lot of power, so they defaulted to making people priests. So, some farmer breaks his leg, and on Toril, he'd just have to go to the local temple and ask for healing, maybe offer a prayer and some minor service. But, while they were on Abeir, maybe that farmer will have to offer to feed the temple for a month, which they offer up as food for the god in sacrifice. Maybe the farmer has to offer up 3 cows to be slaughtered, their blood drained on the altar and hearts left for the gods to eat. Maybe the farmer's family has to pay some adventurers to go capture some of those evil non-religious Abeirans to sacrifice on the altar.
sidebar on that idea, while in Abeir, arcane casters also are not as powerful. They maybe don't have to sacrifice, but maybe they have to memorize spells according to second edition rules. By that I mean maybe they had to spend 10 minutes per spell level memorizing EACH spell to put it into their heads. This is a HUGE change from 3rd edition wherein, because for any wizard above 3rd level this means that they now have to spend MORE THAN an hour each day to renew all their spells. For high level wizards, it COULD take a WEEK OR WEEKS to renew all their spells. Furthermore, there were no "cantrips" that a wizard could repeatedly cast in Abeir. While this may sound stringent to some, this is basically how 2nd edition wizards had to memorize spells (though 2nd edition spells were more broken than 3rd edition in general). This in essence though puts wizards in a precarious situation where they can't rely solely on their magic. Meanwhile, sorcerers on Abeir didn't have these restrictions, but just as they were on Toril... they knew few spells.
This in essence would put Torilians who were in Abeir at a severe disadvantage, BUT in a time of crisis, they could still call on massive magical power. Thus, they could still defend themselves. The general idea though that I have is that over time, these restrictions weakened. For instance, nearing the time of the sundering perhaps memorizing spells was going MUCH faster (maybe even to the "memorize all your spells in an hour" timeframe of 3rd edition). Maybe the amount a priest needed to sacrifice wasn't nearly as much as it was 80 years prior.
|
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 30 Mar 2019 : 04:58:53
Or from the bodies of fallen gods. Most primordials are stronger that even greater deities. That's why the gods banded togheter in groups of 3 to 5 during to Dawn War to face just a single primordial, and why most primordials were sealed instead of killed during that war; and why Ao deemed the creation of Abeir a necessety after the gods won: the few remaining primordials were still a threat for the gods (Entropy was used as a deterrent for the whole Faerūnian pantheon, for instance). So, in a conflict between gods and primordials, the gods are always on the losing side.
Even if those dead gods and primordials were later restored to life during the Sundering, is posible that the corpses of their former incarnations remained. And that the memory of their temporal dead haunts them still. |
| Storyteller Hero |
Posted - 30 Mar 2019 : 02:46:46
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Also bear in mind, that in those places, they've had 100 years in Abeir, so they may also be coming back changed. Populations may have become more savvy or even changed races entirely, etc... So, yeah, I'd agree, this opens up a lot of possibilities. Exactly how to deal with them is the question, but I can say most people weren't happy with the direct correlation to the Americas that was done. But we also don't want to see the place become just Faerun 2.0.
The gods of Anchorome/Maztica could have traveled together with the peoples of Anchorome/Maztica, in which case there could have been some conflict with the primordials in Abeir, and the people may be advancing their culture with materials taken from the bodies of fallen primordials.
|
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 30 Mar 2019 : 00:19:46
Plane Shift: Ixalan is a good example of pre-Columbian fantasy cultures well done. I guess that document is a good guide to create a Maztica that has a Pre-Columbian flavor without making it "not-colonial LatinAmerica but with elves".
https://media.wizards.com/2018/downloads/magic/plane-shift_ixalan.pdf |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 29 Mar 2019 : 22:52:12
Also bear in mind, that in those places, they've had 100 years in Abeir, so they may also be coming back changed. Populations may have become more savvy or even changed races entirely, etc... So, yeah, I'd agree, this opens up a lot of possibilities. Exactly how to deal with them is the question, but I can say most people weren't happy with the direct correlation to the Americas that was done. But we also don't want to see the place become just Faerun 2.0. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 29 Mar 2019 : 20:57:19
Well... We can always use other options.
Anyway, the more I think about this idea the more I like it. There is a lot of potential in this idea. What I like the most is that people from Laerakond, because of their philosophy and customs, will go to Maztica, Lopango, Katashaka and perhaps even Anchorome as traders instead of would-be conquerors (unless you're planning to use the dragons instead of humanoids), and this is something that I really welcome. What I don't like of 2e Maztica is that its flavor is "the Conquest but with elves".
The downside, however, is that there is no way that at this point culture in these places isn't going to be affected in some way or another. But well, Ed said that now (the 1500s) is a time of change in the Realms... |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 29 Mar 2019 : 14:23:17
Well, tried it, but also as I was installing the viewer, noted this in the legaleeze.... so I can't (even if doing it for free) put up the file in CC3+ format on DMS Guild, but if I save it as JPEG or PNG, looks like I can. I'll just need to figure a way to get the files smaller. It would have been nice for them though, since I bet they'd get more purchasers of their software if the file itself could be freely distributed so that people could edit the actual map. Then again, people COULD do what I did and import the jpeg in as a layer, but then they have no ability to modify the general land shapes (such as moving Laerakond), remove existing cities, move text, etc... still options are there and I'd bet most people would be just taking a smaller region and focusing in on it.
LEGAL STUFF
USE OF SYMBOLS AND ARTWORK
This software product includes a large amount of symbols, fill-styles and other artwork in a variety of file formats (OUR ARTWORK). This section sets out how you can distribute maps containing OUR ARTWORK.
(i) Subject to the restrictions in section ii and iii, you may freely distribute the maps you create using OUR ARTWORK in CC3 format, but not the source image files (PNG and bitmap artwork) associated with them. You may freely distribute flat files (for example BMP and PNG) exported from CC3 containing OUR ARTWORK. You may publish such maps for commercial gain.
(ii) You may not redistribute any map that in our sole opinion is, or appears to be, for the purpose of disseminating OUR ARTWORK. Think of your maps as documents, and our symbols as fonts. You can print a document containing Times New Roman font, but you can't give the font file away, or produce a "font book".
(iii) You may not produce commercial products which consist predominantly of floorplan-resolution exports OUR ARTWORK without written permission from ProFantasy Software Ltd. This includes but is not limited to PDF dungeon tiles. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 29 Mar 2019 : 13:29:33
Zero,
THANK YOU! You are a great resource, and I love bouncing ideas off you because you aren't afraid to give feedback, and that improves things. I agree, it should impact the realms, BUT until we have something that makes it officially there, its probably best if we develop around the idea that "there's a reason we haven't heard much from them YET". Up until year 5 since the sundering (again, thinking that's where we're at), we've heard Nada, but if in year 6 they suddenly return in a vengeance, it can make sense with what we're doing so far. Whereas if they were almost directly butting up on the Moonshaes, Evermeet, the isles of the northmen, etc... there's no way there wouldn't be a furor around it already. It would be news of the realm.
Gotta start work, but this makes me want to read the dragon articles
and that dungeon article and its Elminster-like figure sounds interesting. I think after work today I'm gonna do some more map work to fill in Maztica/Anchorome/Lopango and then I'm gonna start filling in Laerakond where it currently sits and then the isles of Evermeet where they sit currently. That should get me all the KNOWN lands filled in on this map, and then I can share it up and different people can do different things with it as they wish to expand into different regions (i.e. you want to fill in Aurune, go ahead... you want to fill in Anchorome.... go ahead... you want to fill in Osse.. go ahead), and then turn around and use the map in their product with their own updates.
Which reminds me, I also want to install this program on my laptop that doesn't have the CC3+ program installed and then copy the map to that laptop and see if I'm able to view the map
https://www.profantasy.com/library/dpv.asp
I know not everyone is going to have this CC3+ software, but if they can get a viewer then at least they can view the file if not edit it (which makes the file a HELLUVA lot smaller than a jpeg or png file). In fact, if you, Seethyr, Diffan, or Storyteller Hero want to be a guinea pig and don't own the editing software but want to see if you can view the files, I'm willing to email the half-baked version of the map file while I'm still filling things in. If that's the case, just PM me (don't feel obligated, just throwing it out as an option). |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 28 Mar 2019 : 21:08:08
I also believe that the point of having Laerakond remaining in Toril is to have it impacting the Realms. Even if you don't play there, it should contribute somehow to your campaign. If you play in Waterdeep, perhaps there is a small branch of the Tarmalune Trade House in town, for instace.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Hmmm, I'm not following LFR, can you point me to links for LFR adventures that specifically mention details on returned abeir as a place (i.e. less adventure content, more lore content). Also, you mentioned that Ed (and or possibly others) had done some dragon articles focused on Laerakond. IF it wouldn't be a pain to find, do you have those edition numbers? My interest in the place grows.
The LFR adventures set in Laerakond are the MINI1 series (set in the Windrise Ports), the QUES2 adventure (set in Gontal and Fimbrul), and the ABER4 series (set in the Dusk Ports). The MINI1 adventures have appendixes that have info about the cities each adventure takes place. Sadly, the other series' adventures don't have this.
You can download them from there:
Year 3 to 6 adventures (the ABER4 Series are here)
http://www.livingforgottenrealms.com/
Year 1 and 2 adventures (the MINI1 and QUES are here)
http://www.livingforgottenrealms.com/adventures.html
The Dragon articles expanding the lore about Laerakond are:
DR366: Gontal (by Bruce R. Cordell and Ed Greenwood) this super mysterious place that don't has any info in the FRCG.
DR372: Backdrop: Tarmalune (by Ed Greenwood) expands the info about this city from the FRCG
DR375: Gontal, Dominions of Nehu (by Bruce R. Cordell) This article expands the info about the Plagueland in Gontal.
DR376: Adventurers of the Realms: Tarmalune and the Windrise Ports (by Chris Tulach) this article canonizes and expands the info from the LFR MINI1 series. The info about Tarmalune is the same from Ed's article with a few bits of info here and there, but there is new info about the other Windrise Ports (that didn't had much info besides their small paragraphs in the FRCG).
There is also an "Eye on the Realms" article by Ed in Dungeon 193, named "The Winking Eyes of Rhauron" that adds this mysterious item to the Realmslore, adds an Elminster-like (but evil) figure to Laerakond, and canonizes the name "Laerakond", in fact. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 28 Mar 2019 : 13:37:27
quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
It's the word "still" on page 84's quote that leads me to believe that Evermeet actually maintained its relative position rather than moving during the Spellplague.
Another possibility to consider for the location of Laerakond is that it was where Maztica is, then moved during the Second Sundering, from west/southwest of Evermeet to more directly south of Evermeet to make room for Maztica.
Yeah, that's what I originally went with, and for almost EXACTLY the same reasons you're thinking. I also had an interest in having Laerakond and Balduran Bay/Fort Flame interacting. It also actually sounds really good in the head, but then when you start placing it, it brings up a lot of issues. Just to further the discussion, as I've said before picture is worth a thousand words.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZzNe9gotQSplke3fayqvnz7pGIf8RZdP/view?usp=sharing
Again, I didn't exactly "measure" Laerakond for this, because the scholar's guide map was a good bit off. I might be able to shrink Laerakond maybe 20%. But still, this is a good representation I feel.
So, look at the red circled area south of Evermeet. Now consider what's EAST of that. Already, you can see that one portion of that's pretty much inline with Nimbral. So, this would pretty much put Laerakond as a pretty much "in your face" threat for the islands of the northmen and the Moonshaes and Lantan. It would also be unignorable threat to Evermeet as well. This wouldn't be something that I feel most people could ignore, and it would be news to the rest of the realms I'm feeling. In short, if this were true, we'd have seen news about it. This is why I also am inclined to stay away from putting it either integrated into the arm leading out of the Chultan Peninsula OR to the west of Chult. Its purely because nothing has been said to indicate it is there, so it opens up issues of "why hasn't anyone noticed".
However, if its west of Maztica... well, its SUDDENLY got 5 huge continents that just materialized along its northern, eastern, and southern borders (i.e. Anchorome, Maztica, Lopango, Katashaka, Myrmidune). Continents that LITERALLY dwarf it, and since it wasn't a unified place before, it would have to get its own houses in order. So, if noone's heard much from Laerakond the last five years, maybe that's because they've been assessing threats, sending out cartographers and explorers in the hundreds, trying to negotiate peace and alliances amongst their own countries, training people in entirely new languages, opening trade relations locally rather than in far flung ports, maybe even acquiring new territories. It becomes believable that for a few years, the people of Faerun were busy with their own changes, and maybe they heard small snippets from Laerakond. Maybe they even saw a couple ships. However, maybe the ships of Laerakond that were trying to come to Faerun have actually been getting hijacked by returning folks from Maztica, Lopango, Katashaka, Nimbral, Lantan, etc... all of which have suddenly appeared between them and Faerun. For all we know, Lantan might now have "techno-pirates" patrolling the seas with golems helping man their ships. The Nimbraii may have pirates that are using illusions to sneak up on ships and take them, seeking to build a navy out of captured ships.
Anyway, I guess the question I'm putting forth isn't just "should Laerakond stay", but more "if it stays, how is it affecting the rest of Toril, AND how is the rest of Toril affecting it". Because in my mind, the question of should it stay is easy. Yes. It was a valuable addition. 4e people liked it, and while I'm not a huge 4e fan, I'm not wanting to push anyone away from the table. But, before it was this "island unto itself". So was Maztica. So was Anchorome. Why? Those were all designed as "a contained thing". However, we've had enough time to explore them, understand their base workings, realize that some of their ideas (in all of them) were unoriginal and could use improvement. Moreso, I don't think any of these are golden cows that the FR community for the most part would say "you can't change a hair of it". This is different from say the story of Unther and Mulhorand which was just getting interesting in 3.5 and suddenly the whole storyline was just tossed aside. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 28 Mar 2019 : 13:02:58
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
It depends. Laerakond has only two trade-focused powers, the Windrise Ports and the Dusk Ports. The other nations are either not insterested in making their own trade companies, or lack the resources to do it, depending on the Ports for their imports/exports needs
The people of the Windrise Ports are more insterested in trade. Getting new goods and selling their own, and getting rich. That kind of stuff is their primary concern. The worst they would do is smuggling and selling stuff overpriced.
The Dusk Ports are insterested in trade as well, but they are also shadier than the people of the Windrise Ports. They often deal in piracy, slave-trading, and this kind of shaddy stuff.
Colonizing maybe is a good prospect for escaped slaves and young dragons wanting to create their own fiefs.
The Zaltec idea seems ok. But, Zaltec may have to deal with rivals from Faerūnian pantheon (the year one LFR adventures in the Windrise Ports list a few gods from Faerūn that had active cults in the Windrise Ports as of 1479; since those are year one adventures, anything there is canon). Zaltec's work won't be easy dealing with Tiamat, for instance.
Hmmm, I'm not following LFR, can you point me to links for LFR adventures that specifically mention details on returned abeir as a place (i.e. less adventure content, more lore content). Also, you mentioned that Ed (and or possibly others) had done some dragon articles focused on Laerakond. IF it wouldn't be a pain to find, do you have those edition numbers? My interest in the place grows. |
| Storyteller Hero |
Posted - 28 Mar 2019 : 07:16:27
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
About the placement of Laerakond - the 4e FR Campaign Guide places the continent right near Evermeet but doesn't specify a particular direction. Since Evermeet is to the east of Anchorome/Maztica, I would place Laerakond to the south of Evermeet and east of Maztica, making the Windrise Ports a potential stop between Maztica and Faerūn.
Careful, I fell into that trap as well, but I can't outright remember all the statements that made me think it moved. I don't think Evermeet during 4e was where Evermeet was prior to the spellplague. Let me hunt down where it said it moved in addition to the being empty, etc.. to doublecheck that statement.
I could have sworn there was another reference, but in essence in the below we have Maztica leaving, Laerakond arriving where Maztica was, Evermeet going to the Feywild, and some "echo" of Evermeet appearing near Laerakond. Given how Evermeet first appeared (i.e. the original sundering tearing apart whole continents and flinging things all over), its not surprising then if the "echo" of Evermeet is not in the original spot of Evermeet. The continent to the west of Evermeet is Anchorome (Gold and Glory establishes that... there may be other references as well). Maztica is the smaller n-shaped landmass (which by the way is roughly the same general size and shape of Laerakond) at the bottom of Anchorome. Note, there's also references to Anchorome having islands, and said continent does have islands off its shore.
So, it would appear that Evermeet in 4e wasn't where Evermeet was prior to the spellplague, but its back now and that strange "echo" land is now gone. You know, one thing that kind of pops in my head based on this discussion. What if the "echo" land was actually occupying where Maztica was and Laerakond was actually where I'm showing it now (i.e. a little bit more south and west). It wouldn't be like anyone had points of reference to compare. It may very well be that the "echo" of Evermeet is now back in Abeir, and there could be gates connecting the echo and current Evermeet (allowing passage between the two worlds if one could access Evermeet's gate system).
4e FRCG page 84
The fey isle of Evermeet still lies more than a thousand miles west of the Sword Coastbut now the world has lost contact with this refuge, which has been relocated to the Feywild.
4e FRCG page 132
Arcana DC 40: Evermeet in fact survives in the Feywild. An echo of the fey refuge remains in Toril as an isle with the same shape and diameter, lying off the coast of the unfamiliar continent of Returned Abeir. The echo is empty of structures and has few residents. Evermeet fey can step back and forth between the echo and the Feywilds Evermeet as they choose.
4e FRCG page 87
The greatest portion of the returning world, however, replaced Maztica, the continent west of Faerūn. Now, a savage land breathes beneath a steely sky across the Trackless Sea: Returned Abeir. Here, ancient primordials sleep while their rapacious dragon mounts of old rule vast empires. It is from Abeir that dragonborn and genasi hail, steeped in lore previously unknown in Faerūn
It's the word "still" on page 84's quote that leads me to believe that Evermeet actually maintained its relative position rather than moving during the Spellplague.
Another possibility to consider for the location of Laerakond is that it was where Maztica is, then moved during the Second Sundering, from west/southwest of Evermeet to more directly south of Evermeet to make room for Maztica.
|
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 28 Mar 2019 : 02:52:56
It depends. Laerakond has only two trade-focused powers, the Windrise Ports and the Dusk Ports. The other nations are either not insterested in making their own trade companies, or lack the resources to do it, depending on the Ports for their imports/exports needs
The people of the Windrise Ports are more insterested in trade. Getting new goods and selling their own, and getting rich. That kind of stuff is their primary concern. The worst they would do is smuggling and selling stuff overpriced.
The Dusk Ports are insterested in trade as well, but they are also shadier than the people of the Windrise Ports. They often deal in piracy, slave-trading, and this kind of shaddy stuff.
Colonizing maybe is a good prospect for escaped slaves and young dragons wanting to create their own fiefs.
The Zaltec idea seems ok. But, Zaltec may have to deal with rivals from Faerūnian pantheon (the year one LFR adventures in the Windrise Ports list a few gods from Faerūn that had active cults in the Windrise Ports as of 1479; since those are year one adventures, anything there is canon). Zaltec's work won't be easy dealing with Tiamat, for instance. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 28 Mar 2019 : 01:50:45
Hmmm, and since everyone seems interested in Laerakond and Osse, looking at the remake of the map I just did, I note 3 large "islands" that are from the Scholar's view that I simply transferred over. While not as big as say Nimbral they might be comparable to some of the smaller Moonshae isles. They could make great places for Laerakond to conquer and setup as ports for trade with Osse (essentially they setup a way stop where ships from Osse and ships from Laerakond meet here, conduct trade, and then go home). It could even be something where different nations of Laerakond own different islands. Maybe one focuses on slave trading. Maybe others focus on other trade. Maybe privateers from the different countries snipe against rival islands. Given that their only reference is the Scholar's View of Abeir-Toril I could also easily increase the size of them to say double that shown and just say it was an imperfect drawing (because trust me, that thing IS an imperfect drawing when you try comparing maps, but its the best we have for a world view right now). Some of those islands could be almost comparable to the size of some of the countries in Laerakond, and there might even be some of them that are shared islands with one country controlling one side and another controlling the other side and maybe impassable mountains blocking interior travel.
What might they be getting from Osse? Maybe they're raping the land for lumber. Maybe they're gathering zoo animals. Maybe they're taking slaves. Maybe they're just seeking to gain new land to colonize and farm. Maybe they've heard of the Osse studies in dream magic and they think its an important discipline. Maybe they've heard of the great spirit Olorubo as a dawn titan from Abeir's past. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 28 Mar 2019 : 01:29:03
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Which version did you favor? I have two copies up now
I like the second one. Close to Maztica enough that people saying "Returned Abeir replaced Maztica" makes sense (and without GPS this mistake is understandable), yet also in proximity to Osse, so the Laerakondans may have an interest in that land.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
It would be a very interesting interaction, especially since a lot of Maztica/Lopango (and even my Katashaka) believes in the concept of taking slaves, ritual sacrifice, etc... meanwhile, other areas are more civilized (less so technologically though). How are the Laerakond populations? I know a lot were dragonborn servants to dragons, correct? I would need to reread that.
There are the Windrise Ports, that are free states and super cosmopolitan. Think, Laerakond's Sword Coast equivalent. There are the Sword Lands that are somewhat an equivalent to Faerūn's Heartlands. There is also Gontal, super misterious country ruled by a good-aligned wizard, and ravaged by a big plagueland (that may still persist post-Sundering, if we go by something Ed said on Twitter). These regions are dragon-free and they dislike slavery in general.
Then, there is Eskorn, that all believe is a backwater region, and while there is no dragon lord there, dragons are common enough that the place may be reconquered at any moment (as Skelkor is just north of it). People there may or may not see slavery with good eyes. Depends on the city.
There are Relmaur and Fimbrul, that are non-human realms. Relmaur is a dragonborn-ruled nation, so no slavery there (dragonborn are fed up about slavery); while Fimbrul is a nation divided by realms of giants, orcs and dwarves, so their stance may depend.
Then there are the dragon-dominated lands. Skelkor is the most powerful of the remaining dragon empires of Laerakond, yet is the smallest. Full of small dragon ruled states, with many cities full of slaves (Tymanther was once located here, for instance). Melabrauth is not as powerful and civilized as Skelkor, but is biggest (albeit full of wilderness and ruins). The Dusk Ports, rivals of the Windrise Ports, are a protectorate of Melabrauth. All of these nations are pro-slavery, though I recall the dracolich emperor of Melabrauth isn't fond of dragonborn slaves since the slave rebelion during the Wailing Years.
On a side note, I guess Melauthaur may have an artifact made from Petron's corpse, seeing the fate that befell Djerad Kusold.
So, just spitballing some things here. The western shore of Maztica in the area that was Nexal has been savage for the last 100 years supposedly with theoretically the descendants of orcs, trolls, and jagres (big ogres that can shapechange into jaguars) occupying that area. I could see some dragons relocating into this chaos to make slaves of these creatures and then trying to use them to reconquer their lands in Laerakond. I could also see something where Zaltec "occupies" a dragon and uses it as a kind of avatar, or he produces something and forces them to serve. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 28 Mar 2019 : 01:12:46
Ok, I do too. I think I'm going to leave it there. Also, remember when we were discussing the idea of "Plumed Dragonborn" and the idea of the aearee civilization still existent to some degree up in Anchorome. What if Qotal was an Aearee deity (and to note, there's possible linkages for Qotal and Ubtao), and these dragonborn are Abeiran Dragonborn who come to embrace the worship of Qotal. The "dragons" of Maztica/Anchorome are also likely to be feathered and not necessarily resembling what we consider dragons, and it may be that they stood against the dragons of Abeir as a nurturing people. Within Maztica and Anchorome, they may have "gone to sleep" in the land similar to what happened with the dawn titans/primordials in Abeir, and woke up when the transfer happened. Making them very "fey" dragons would seem to work. For that matter, the Dawn Titans/Primordials were known to have extremely powerful dragons as mounts. If Qotal/Ubtao was a primordial who betrayed the other primordials, maybe he put his draconic servants to sleep. Mirage Dragons, Giant Couatls, Amber dragons with their barklike skin, etc... would all fit and maybe he awakens them to protect his chosen people while they are in Abeir.
Now, I'm not looking to turn Maztica into a whole dragon infested place, but a few key and extremely powerful dragons might have been able to make the dragons of Abeir take pause. Also, if Qotal did appear amongst his worshippers and he had several dragons that might also help protect these civiliztions while in Abeir. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 28 Mar 2019 : 00:45:08
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Which version did you favor? I have two copies up now
I like the second one. Close to Maztica enough that people saying "Returned Abeir replaced Maztica" makes sense (and without GPS this mistake is understandable), yet also in proximity to Osse, so the Laerakondans may have an interest in that land.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
It would be a very interesting interaction, especially since a lot of Maztica/Lopango (and even my Katashaka) believes in the concept of taking slaves, ritual sacrifice, etc... meanwhile, other areas are more civilized (less so technologically though). How are the Laerakond populations? I know a lot were dragonborn servants to dragons, correct? I would need to reread that.
There are the Windrise Ports, that are free states and super cosmopolitan. Think, Laerakond's Sword Coast equivalent. There are the Sword Lands that are somewhat an equivalent to Faerūn's Heartlands. There is also Gontal, super misterious country ruled by a good-aligned wizard, and ravaged by a big plagueland (that may still persist post-Sundering, if we go by something Ed said on Twitter). These regions are dragon-free and they dislike slavery in general.
Then, there is Eskorn, that all believe is a backwater region, and while there is no dragon lord there, dragons are common enough that the place may be reconquered at any moment (as Skelkor is just north of it). People there may or may not see slavery with good eyes. Depends on the city.
There are Relmaur and Fimbrul, that are non-human realms. Relmaur is a dragonborn-ruled nation, so no slavery there (dragonborn are fed up about slavery); while Fimbrul is a nation divided by realms of giants, orcs and dwarves, so their stance may depend.
Then there are the dragon-dominated lands. Skelkor is the most powerful of the remaining dragon empires of Laerakond, yet is the smallest. Full of small dragon ruled states, with many cities full of slaves (Tymanther was once located here, for instance). Melabrauth is not as powerful and civilized as Skelkor, but is biggest (albeit full of wilderness and ruins). The Dusk Ports, rivals of the Windrise Ports, are a protectorate of Melabrauth. All of these nations are pro-slavery, though I recall the dracolich emperor of Melabrauth isn't fond of dragonborn slaves since the slave rebelion during the Wailing Years.
On a side note, I guess Melauthaur may have an artifact made from Petron's corpse, seeing the fate that befell Djerad Kusold. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 28 Mar 2019 : 00:07:04
quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
About the placement of Laerakond - the 4e FR Campaign Guide places the continent right near Evermeet but doesn't specify a particular direction. Since Evermeet is to the east of Anchorome/Maztica, I would place Laerakond to the south of Evermeet and east of Maztica, making the Windrise Ports a potential stop between Maztica and Faerūn.
Careful, I fell into that trap as well, but I can't outright remember all the statements that made me think it moved. I don't think Evermeet during 4e was where Evermeet was prior to the spellplague. Let me hunt down where it said it moved in addition to the being empty, etc.. to doublecheck that statement.
I could have sworn there was another reference, but in essence in the below we have Maztica leaving, Laerakond arriving where Maztica was, Evermeet going to the Feywild, and some "echo" of Evermeet appearing near Laerakond. Given how Evermeet first appeared (i.e. the original sundering tearing apart whole continents and flinging things all over), its not surprising then if the "echo" of Evermeet is not in the original spot of Evermeet. The continent to the west of Evermeet is Anchorome (Gold and Glory establishes that... there may be other references as well). Maztica is the smaller n-shaped landmass (which by the way is roughly the same general size and shape of Laerakond) at the bottom of Anchorome. Note, there's also references to Anchorome having islands, and said continent does have islands off its shore.
So, it would appear that Evermeet in 4e wasn't where Evermeet was prior to the spellplague, but its back now and that strange "echo" land is now gone. You know, one thing that kind of pops in my head based on this discussion. What if the "echo" land was actually occupying where Maztica was and Laerakond was actually where I'm showing it now (i.e. a little bit more south and west). It wouldn't be like anyone had points of reference to compare. It may very well be that the "echo" of Evermeet is now back in Abeir, and there could be gates connecting the echo and current Evermeet (allowing passage between the two worlds if one could access Evermeet's gate system).
4e FRCG page 84
The fey isle of Evermeet still lies more than a thousand miles west of the Sword Coastbut now the world has lost contact with this refuge, which has been relocated to the Feywild.
4e FRCG page 132
Arcana DC 40: Evermeet in fact survives in the Feywild. An echo of the fey refuge remains in Toril as an isle with the same shape and diameter, lying off the coast of the unfamiliar continent of Returned Abeir. The echo is empty of structures and has few residents. Evermeet fey can step back and forth between the echo and the Feywilds Evermeet as they choose.
4e FRCG page 87
The greatest portion of the returning world, however, replaced Maztica, the continent west of Faerūn. Now, a savage land breathes beneath a steely sky across the Trackless Sea: Returned Abeir. Here, ancient primordials sleep while their rapacious dragon mounts of old rule vast empires. It is from Abeir that dragonborn and genasi hail, steeped in lore previously unknown in Faerūn |
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