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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe
USA
329 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Mar 2019 : 23:32:04
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I haven't been able to find any official announcements or 5e references about the continent of Laerakond (also known as Returned Abeir in 4th edition FR), so I've been analyzing the circumstances that might relate to whether the continent would have stayed or not during the Second Sundering.
First, the case of Tymanther, which (partially) stayed. Tymanther had known footholds of Toril's deities, particularly the church of Bahamut, at least by the 1470s DR, so there was definite interest in keeping its peoples on Toril. The god Enlil apparently interrupted Tymanther's transfer to Abeir during the re-separation process as well.
Merchants from Tarmalune in Laerakond had started establishing trade with the Sword Coast at least as early as the 1470s DR, according to Neverwinter Campaign Setting (4e). Missionaries of the gods in Faerun were likely to travel to Laerakond as a result of the trade between continents. A lot can happen in the decade following that point in time.
Dwarves and orcs could apparently be found on Laerakond, which would spark interest from the dwarven and orcish pantheons. The draconic pantheon would be interested in the dragons and dragonborn on Laerakond as well.
The elves of Evermeet, just north of Laerakond, might have spread their faith into the continent as a number of them would likely have explored the "mysterious continent" that had appeared so close to the elves' island.
The primordials sleeping in Laerakond were relatively few and dormant, seemingly content to rest away from the potential conflicts of Abeir, where Dawn Titans remain active.
If the faiths of Toril had spread throughout Laerakond during the century between the Spellplague and the Second Sundering, it's possible that either Ao would leave the continent alone or multiple gods with footholds within Laerakond might have intervened.
That's what I've got so far in trying to figure out what could have happened to Laerakond. It might also be that Laerakond was broken up into an archipelago with a partial exile back to Abeir.
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2019 : 00:02:34
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When I asked Ed about the fate of Laerakond, he said that currently anything Laerakond is under NDA. However, Chris Perkins said that not all of Abeir was sent back to Abeir in the Sundering, to give DMs room to add cool things to their Realms if they want to. Besides Tymanther, which other parts of Abeir remained in Toril is up to the DM.
Guess the biggest issue here is not how remained, but where.
We do know Laerakond exists in Ed's Realms, though its located in a different place than where Maztica is located. That's is a potential fix: change its location. We can blame the Sundering for its new location, or have it there since always.
Once this is solved, then the how is really easy. If a powerless deity such as Enlil could save Tymanther, any god with an established church and a lot of worshipers can save Laerakond with closed eyes. Even the primordials can save Laerakond, if they don't want to go back.
IMC, my players are planning to save the places they like from the 4e Realms (such as Laerakond or Myth Drannor) and are searching for the artifact known as the "Shadow of Ao" (FRCG, p.210), so they could do it themselves (my campaign is still in the 4e timeframe, so the Sundering is yet to happen). |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 24 Mar 2019 00:05:04 |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2019 : 01:08:58
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| My hopes have always been about being additive rather than subtractive. What would we rathe have, more trackless sea or a cool realm of mighty dragons? And this coming from someone who is no fan of 4e lore... |
Follow the Maztica (Aztec/Maya) and Anchorome (Indigenous North America) Campaigns on DMsGuild!
The Maztica Campaign
The Anchorome Campaign |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2019 : 18:12:08
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Yeah, we had some discussions maybe a year or two back as to WHERE to put Laerakond. The reason was that Laerakond was defined as being roughly where Maztica was AND it had a somewhat similar shape (minus the connection of Anchorome and Lopango). BUT, we wanted Maztica/Anchorome/Lopango/Katashaka back (and the assumption was that ALL of that was gone since you didn't hear any references of any of it and it was all very nearby to Maztica). Also there was this weird thing where an empty Evermeet had ALSO appeared right on the shores of Laerakond, but to my knowledge nothing really got done with that. So, like Zero just said, the best option is to have it somehow get "displaced" upon the return... or perhaps people didn't QUITE have it right when they said that it had been "where Maztica was"... let's face it, they didn't exactly have GPS coordinates and so much ELSE had just changed that their references would have been kablewy. My first thoughts were to put in in the north near Evermeet and say that the return "dragged" it north. However, it was a very humid/jungle environment, so I actually appreciate Markustay's idea of putting it near Chult (though he actually later tried to incorporate it to replace some of Samarach, etc... which I don't agree with). Also, since some folks may not WANT Laerakond, it makes it hard to ignore. So, with time behind me, I think the best idea is to have it stay.... but staying WEST of Maztica. This opens it up for using it as an established platform from which one can then expand into a lot of undiscovered territory. I've actually recently been talking with Seethyr about making a giant map covering from "Osse" in the west to Nimbral in the East, and this was partly because I had no good map to cover the various territories that I'd been playing with the last few years. This covers a LOT of undiscovered/unmapped land. I placed Laerakond's rough shape on it. The idea was to put in those things that HAVE definitive mapping already established, and then leave blank slate for others. I could then maybe put it up on DM's Guild for others to use to fill in what they want. This would be different than say some of the maps that I've seen by others (such as the one by Handsome Rob), so that people who don't want to adhere to a general concept that was created by a mapmaker without supporting material to explain the layout. In doing this, one could leave whole sections of the map empty for later expansion.
I haven't gotten far yet. This is what I made in just a day, but then I had some surgery, so I've been kind of out of it this past 2 weeks.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1mD8TQaLgqPaoIOPjkSze1Xja-IHDi-8I
The actual file is HUGE (the jpeg is like 70 meg and that's empty), but the campaign cartographer file is pretty small. I just made a quick snip though to put up a relatively small jpeg just to show the placement of Laerakond (its in red). Points to anyone besides Seethyr who spots the other continent that I added AND can tell me what product it corresponds to (hint, Markustay turned me onto it). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4429 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2019 : 20:34:58
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| My Laerakond never left after having been deposited on Faerūn but were it to be moved, I'd say that huge continent towards the far bottom left of the map, seems like no one knows anything about that place and it's as good as any for Laerakond to fill. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2019 : 20:52:25
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The placement seems ok. My only grook with it is that it may disrupt trade between Laerakond and Faerūnunless that channel between Maztica and Lopango is navigable.
On the other hand, it may open trade with Kara-tur and Osse (if the Osse...ians (?) do trade, that its). |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 26 Mar 2019 20:54:04 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2019 : 20:55:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
My Laerakond never left after having been deposited on Faerūn but were it to be moved, I'd say that huge continent towards the far bottom left of the map, seems like no one knows anything about that place and it's as good as any for Laerakond to fill.
You mean Katashaka? There, or near there, can be a good location as well. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 26 Mar 2019 20:56:30 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2019 : 21:59:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
The placement seems ok. My only grook with it is that it may disrupt trade between Laerakond and Faerūnunless that channel between Maztica and Lopango is navigable.
On the other hand, it may open trade with Kara-tur and Osse (if the Osse...ians (?) do trade, that its).
Maztica and Lopango are connected, but Lopango and Katashaka aren't. They could traverse that path OR go the other route around Zakhara. There's also portals, skyships/spelljammers, possibly underdark paths, etc.. In the end, Maztica was seen as "far away" by Faerun already, so one must assume that they felt the same about Laerakond. I'd honestly wonder how much the two groups interacted (it didn't seem like they did much, but I didn't exactly follow 4e, so maybe you know of something more on that than me Zero).
However, yeah, you hit on exactly what I was looking at. Essentially this puts Laerakond in a great position to interact with Osse, Kara-Tur, Maztica, Lopango, Anchorome, that mystery place I added that noone spotted yet  , Myrmidune (that's what I think we've collectively accepted as the name of the small continent west of Anchorome). Then there's also that mysterious "Sea of Corynactis" that the original Shalarin came from that's "west of Maztica" and which is involved with Dagon. So, that might bring in some other interesting things, if the dragons of Laerakond basically have to deal with an undersea threat.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2019 : 22:16:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
My Laerakond never left after having been deposited on Faerūn but were it to be moved, I'd say that huge continent towards the far bottom left of the map, seems like no one knows anything about that place and it's as good as any for Laerakond to fill.
Just one thing to bear in mind as well, that drawing I made.... I tried to roughly keep things to scale when it came to the additions. I will not say that I even REMOTELY calculated, but I did know that Laerakond and Maztica were roughly the same size. I then did a copy in of Laerakond's map on a layer, sized it over Maztica's image, and then slid it west. I also copied in maps of Maztica, Anchorome, Evermeet, Nimbral, etc... as layers so that I could trace them over the scholar's guide to Toril map (which I think better defined things). So, that big continent that we've all (most?) collectively called Osse IS huge. Its ROUGHLY the equivalent of Faerun from the sword coast halfway through the Hordelands and down to the shaar. Laerakond would be hard set to conquer all of that unless the people there are too primitive to put up any fight (which may be the case, as the only thing we know of Osse is from Gunggari Ulmarra in one realms novel "Lady of Poison")
Oh, and Zero.. people from Osse are Oslanders. Also, for myself to peruse later... looks like there's seven pages of what to do with Osse from 2010 here
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13657
Oh, and literally, what I'm looking to develop of Osse is that SMAAALLLLL string of like 5 islands (maybe something about the size of the Moonshaes) off its eastern coast (which ironically would be a in a great position to have to deal with Laerakond when it "shifts" closer). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 26 Mar 2019 22:28:12 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2019 : 00:36:33
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
it didn't seem like they did much, but I didn't exactly follow 4e, so maybe you know of something more on that than me Zero
The Neverwinter Campaign Setting states that Tarmalune and Lylorn have trade deals with Neverwinter and Luskan, respectively. The Tarmalune Trade House is featured in the MMO.
Ed Greenwood's Backdrop: Tarmalune implies that Tarmalune has indeed made many trade deals with many other coastal nations, such as Amn, Chult, or the nations of the Shining South. They also trade with Baldur's Gate and Waterdeep (the Tarralune see the Deep as inferior to Tarmalune, in fact). They only avoid places where slavery is legal, such as Calimshan. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 27 Mar 2019 01:15:22 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2019 : 17:44:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
it didn't seem like they did much, but I didn't exactly follow 4e, so maybe you know of something more on that than me Zero
The Neverwinter Campaign Setting states that Tarmalune and Lylorn have trade deals with Neverwinter and Luskan, respectively. The Tarmalune Trade House is featured in the MMO.
Ed Greenwood's Backdrop: Tarmalune implies that Tarmalune has indeed made many trade deals with many other coastal nations, such as Amn, Chult, or the nations of the Shining South. They also trade with Baldur's Gate and Waterdeep (the Tarralune see the Deep as inferior to Tarmalune, in fact). They only avoid places where slavery is legal, such as Calimshan.
Hmmm, so interestingly enough, they seemed to focus more on the southern lands (which makes sense, if it was near where Maztica had been). With the placement I had just done, it could make sense for the Laerakondans to stop off in Maztica, pick up trade goods there that southern and northern Faerun would like, and then travel on. The trip itself might take a decent amount longer (maybe double).
I placed it where I did purely for aesthetic reasons, but I could also drag it closer to where Maztica is (like where I have the text that says "the continent of Katashaka" being the bottom of Laerakond). It would then be slightly southwest of Lopango & Maztica, directly west/northwest of Northern Katashaka, and actually south/southeast of Myrmidune. That would make trade with Maztica really easy, but it might affect the cultures there more. But it would be a brand new thing (i.e. the two weren't close until the end of the spellplague/second sundering). That being said, they'd be closer to Katashaka in that instance as well, so they'd probably vest themselves more into that continent. Do you think that would be a better or worse placement?
Since a picture is worth a thousand words. Compare the above to this latest iteration. Which is the better placement?
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1jBI_p1Td55MIB2EYxoQiHkjW8Fg2kLQu/view?usp=sharing |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 27 Mar 2019 18:01:19 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2019 : 18:21:19
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Is there something in Katashaka?
The placement seems ok. Far too west for my tastes, but since there was nothing there to begin with, it can be an interesting choice. And as Laerakond's culture is somewhat similar to Faerūn'sa little bit alien with all those draconic-ruled states, but pretty much similar nonetheless), it can make for an interesting base of sorts for people exploring those utterly diferent places such as Osse and Kara-Tur. In fact, for the trade focused cities of the Dusk and Windrise ports, the new placement is like a golden opportunity for expanding their trade routes.
I do see some Laerakondan traders (specially from Tarmalune) taking the Zakharan route, even if is the largest one, just to get the chance to trade with Zakhara. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 27 Mar 2019 18:30:00 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2019 : 21:45:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Is there something in Katashaka?
The placement seems ok. Far too west for my tastes, but since there was nothing there to begin with, it can be an interesting choice. And as Laerakond's culture is somewhat similar to Faerūn'sa little bit alien with all those draconic-ruled states, but pretty much similar nonetheless), it can make for an interesting base of sorts for people exploring those utterly diferent places such as Osse and Kara-Tur. In fact, for the trade focused cities of the Dusk and Windrise ports, the new placement is like a golden opportunity for expanding their trade routes.
I do see some Laerakondan traders (specially from Tarmalune) taking the Zakharan route, even if is the largest one, just to get the chance to trade with Zakhara.
Which version did you favor? I have two copies up now
This is where I was originally thinking about it (its aesthetically centralized, so pleasing to the eye)
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1mD8TQaLgqPaoIOPjkSze1Xja-IHDi-8I
This is where I was thinking about after you mentioned trading still with Faerun (don't want to break anyone's canon)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1jBI_p1Td55MIB2EYxoQiHkjW8Fg2kLQu/view?usp=sharing
Nothing defined in Katashaka outside of some development by people like me who have no real influence. My development of Katashaka and some additions to Seethyr's Lopango would be some Mulan(rebel red wizard) settlements that were built during the time in Abeir and some Metahel (read "northmen") settlements also in similar areas. Katashaka itself would be very "african", but with beast folk. Humanity in the area is a relatively new thing to them, and actually humanity has brought the area some technological advancements that they lacked and made their lives somewhat better (yet humanity has also brought their own darkness).
If we did this where it would be THIS close, there would definitely be interaction between the two groups, and it would be something relatively new (we're in what year 5 since the sundering?).
It would be a very interesting interaction, especially since a lot of Maztica/Lopango (and even my Katashaka) believes in the concept of taking slaves, ritual sacrifice, etc... meanwhile, other areas are more civilized (less so technologically though). How are the Laerakond populations? I know a lot were dragonborn servants to dragons, correct? I would need to reread that.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 27 Mar 2019 21:46:37 |
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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe
USA
329 Posts |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2019 : 00:07:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
About the placement of Laerakond - the 4e FR Campaign Guide places the continent right near Evermeet but doesn't specify a particular direction. Since Evermeet is to the east of Anchorome/Maztica, I would place Laerakond to the south of Evermeet and east of Maztica, making the Windrise Ports a potential stop between Maztica and Faerūn.
Careful, I fell into that trap as well, but I can't outright remember all the statements that made me think it moved. I don't think Evermeet during 4e was where Evermeet was prior to the spellplague. Let me hunt down where it said it moved in addition to the being empty, etc.. to doublecheck that statement.
I could have sworn there was another reference, but in essence in the below we have Maztica leaving, Laerakond arriving where Maztica was, Evermeet going to the Feywild, and some "echo" of Evermeet appearing near Laerakond. Given how Evermeet first appeared (i.e. the original sundering tearing apart whole continents and flinging things all over), its not surprising then if the "echo" of Evermeet is not in the original spot of Evermeet. The continent to the west of Evermeet is Anchorome (Gold and Glory establishes that... there may be other references as well). Maztica is the smaller n-shaped landmass (which by the way is roughly the same general size and shape of Laerakond) at the bottom of Anchorome. Note, there's also references to Anchorome having islands, and said continent does have islands off its shore.
So, it would appear that Evermeet in 4e wasn't where Evermeet was prior to the spellplague, but its back now and that strange "echo" land is now gone. You know, one thing that kind of pops in my head based on this discussion. What if the "echo" land was actually occupying where Maztica was and Laerakond was actually where I'm showing it now (i.e. a little bit more south and west). It wouldn't be like anyone had points of reference to compare. It may very well be that the "echo" of Evermeet is now back in Abeir, and there could be gates connecting the echo and current Evermeet (allowing passage between the two worlds if one could access Evermeet's gate system).
4e FRCG page 84
The fey isle of Evermeet still lies more than a thousand miles west of the Sword Coastbut now the world has lost contact with this refuge, which has been relocated to the Feywild.
4e FRCG page 132
Arcana DC 40: Evermeet in fact survives in the Feywild. An echo of the fey refuge remains in Toril as an isle with the same shape and diameter, lying off the coast of the unfamiliar continent of Returned Abeir. The echo is empty of structures and has few residents. Evermeet fey can step back and forth between the echo and the Feywilds Evermeet as they choose.
4e FRCG page 87
The greatest portion of the returning world, however, replaced Maztica, the continent west of Faerūn. Now, a savage land breathes beneath a steely sky across the Trackless Sea: Returned Abeir. Here, ancient primordials sleep while their rapacious dragon mounts of old rule vast empires. It is from Abeir that dragonborn and genasi hail, steeped in lore previously unknown in Faerūn |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 28 Mar 2019 00:55:37 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2019 : 00:45:08
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Which version did you favor? I have two copies up now
I like the second one. Close to Maztica enough that people saying "Returned Abeir replaced Maztica" makes sense (and without GPS this mistake is understandable), yet also in proximity to Osse, so the Laerakondans may have an interest in that land.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
It would be a very interesting interaction, especially since a lot of Maztica/Lopango (and even my Katashaka) believes in the concept of taking slaves, ritual sacrifice, etc... meanwhile, other areas are more civilized (less so technologically though). How are the Laerakond populations? I know a lot were dragonborn servants to dragons, correct? I would need to reread that.
There are the Windrise Ports, that are free states and super cosmopolitan. Think, Laerakond's Sword Coast equivalent. There are the Sword Lands that are somewhat an equivalent to Faerūn's Heartlands. There is also Gontal, super misterious country ruled by a good-aligned wizard, and ravaged by a big plagueland (that may still persist post-Sundering, if we go by something Ed said on Twitter). These regions are dragon-free and they dislike slavery in general.
Then, there is Eskorn, that all believe is a backwater region, and while there is no dragon lord there, dragons are common enough that the place may be reconquered at any moment (as Skelkor is just north of it). People there may or may not see slavery with good eyes. Depends on the city.
There are Relmaur and Fimbrul, that are non-human realms. Relmaur is a dragonborn-ruled nation, so no slavery there (dragonborn are fed up about slavery); while Fimbrul is a nation divided by realms of giants, orcs and dwarves, so their stance may depend.
Then there are the dragon-dominated lands. Skelkor is the most powerful of the remaining dragon empires of Laerakond, yet is the smallest. Full of small dragon ruled states, with many cities full of slaves (Tymanther was once located here, for instance). Melabrauth is not as powerful and civilized as Skelkor, but is biggest (albeit full of wilderness and ruins). The Dusk Ports, rivals of the Windrise Ports, are a protectorate of Melabrauth. All of these nations are pro-slavery, though I recall the dracolich emperor of Melabrauth isn't fond of dragonborn slaves since the slave rebelion during the Wailing Years.
On a side note, I guess Melauthaur may have an artifact made from Petron's corpse, seeing the fate that befell Djerad Kusold. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 28 Mar 2019 01:03:17 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2019 : 01:12:46
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Ok, I do too. I think I'm going to leave it there. Also, remember when we were discussing the idea of "Plumed Dragonborn" and the idea of the aearee civilization still existent to some degree up in Anchorome. What if Qotal was an Aearee deity (and to note, there's possible linkages for Qotal and Ubtao), and these dragonborn are Abeiran Dragonborn who come to embrace the worship of Qotal. The "dragons" of Maztica/Anchorome are also likely to be feathered and not necessarily resembling what we consider dragons, and it may be that they stood against the dragons of Abeir as a nurturing people. Within Maztica and Anchorome, they may have "gone to sleep" in the land similar to what happened with the dawn titans/primordials in Abeir, and woke up when the transfer happened. Making them very "fey" dragons would seem to work. For that matter, the Dawn Titans/Primordials were known to have extremely powerful dragons as mounts. If Qotal/Ubtao was a primordial who betrayed the other primordials, maybe he put his draconic servants to sleep. Mirage Dragons, Giant Couatls, Amber dragons with their barklike skin, etc... would all fit and maybe he awakens them to protect his chosen people while they are in Abeir.
Now, I'm not looking to turn Maztica into a whole dragon infested place, but a few key and extremely powerful dragons might have been able to make the dragons of Abeir take pause. Also, if Qotal did appear amongst his worshippers and he had several dragons that might also help protect these civiliztions while in Abeir. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2019 : 01:29:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Which version did you favor? I have two copies up now
I like the second one. Close to Maztica enough that people saying "Returned Abeir replaced Maztica" makes sense (and without GPS this mistake is understandable), yet also in proximity to Osse, so the Laerakondans may have an interest in that land.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
It would be a very interesting interaction, especially since a lot of Maztica/Lopango (and even my Katashaka) believes in the concept of taking slaves, ritual sacrifice, etc... meanwhile, other areas are more civilized (less so technologically though). How are the Laerakond populations? I know a lot were dragonborn servants to dragons, correct? I would need to reread that.
There are the Windrise Ports, that are free states and super cosmopolitan. Think, Laerakond's Sword Coast equivalent. There are the Sword Lands that are somewhat an equivalent to Faerūn's Heartlands. There is also Gontal, super misterious country ruled by a good-aligned wizard, and ravaged by a big plagueland (that may still persist post-Sundering, if we go by something Ed said on Twitter). These regions are dragon-free and they dislike slavery in general.
Then, there is Eskorn, that all believe is a backwater region, and while there is no dragon lord there, dragons are common enough that the place may be reconquered at any moment (as Skelkor is just north of it). People there may or may not see slavery with good eyes. Depends on the city.
There are Relmaur and Fimbrul, that are non-human realms. Relmaur is a dragonborn-ruled nation, so no slavery there (dragonborn are fed up about slavery); while Fimbrul is a nation divided by realms of giants, orcs and dwarves, so their stance may depend.
Then there are the dragon-dominated lands. Skelkor is the most powerful of the remaining dragon empires of Laerakond, yet is the smallest. Full of small dragon ruled states, with many cities full of slaves (Tymanther was once located here, for instance). Melabrauth is not as powerful and civilized as Skelkor, but is biggest (albeit full of wilderness and ruins). The Dusk Ports, rivals of the Windrise Ports, are a protectorate of Melabrauth. All of these nations are pro-slavery, though I recall the dracolich emperor of Melabrauth isn't fond of dragonborn slaves since the slave rebelion during the Wailing Years.
On a side note, I guess Melauthaur may have an artifact made from Petron's corpse, seeing the fate that befell Djerad Kusold.
So, just spitballing some things here. The western shore of Maztica in the area that was Nexal has been savage for the last 100 years supposedly with theoretically the descendants of orcs, trolls, and jagres (big ogres that can shapechange into jaguars) occupying that area. I could see some dragons relocating into this chaos to make slaves of these creatures and then trying to use them to reconquer their lands in Laerakond. I could also see something where Zaltec "occupies" a dragon and uses it as a kind of avatar, or he produces something and forces them to serve. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2019 : 01:50:45
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Hmmm, and since everyone seems interested in Laerakond and Osse, looking at the remake of the map I just did, I note 3 large "islands" that are from the Scholar's view that I simply transferred over. While not as big as say Nimbral they might be comparable to some of the smaller Moonshae isles. They could make great places for Laerakond to conquer and setup as ports for trade with Osse (essentially they setup a way stop where ships from Osse and ships from Laerakond meet here, conduct trade, and then go home). It could even be something where different nations of Laerakond own different islands. Maybe one focuses on slave trading. Maybe others focus on other trade. Maybe privateers from the different countries snipe against rival islands. Given that their only reference is the Scholar's View of Abeir-Toril I could also easily increase the size of them to say double that shown and just say it was an imperfect drawing (because trust me, that thing IS an imperfect drawing when you try comparing maps, but its the best we have for a world view right now). Some of those islands could be almost comparable to the size of some of the countries in Laerakond, and there might even be some of them that are shared islands with one country controlling one side and another controlling the other side and maybe impassable mountains blocking interior travel.
What might they be getting from Osse? Maybe they're raping the land for lumber. Maybe they're gathering zoo animals. Maybe they're taking slaves. Maybe they're just seeking to gain new land to colonize and farm. Maybe they've heard of the Osse studies in dream magic and they think its an important discipline. Maybe they've heard of the great spirit Olorubo as a dawn titan from Abeir's past. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 28 Mar 2019 01:55:44 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2019 : 02:52:56
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It depends. Laerakond has only two trade-focused powers, the Windrise Ports and the Dusk Ports. The other nations are either not insterested in making their own trade companies, or lack the resources to do it, depending on the Ports for their imports/exports needs
The people of the Windrise Ports are more insterested in trade. Getting new goods and selling their own, and getting rich. That kind of stuff is their primary concern. The worst they would do is smuggling and selling stuff overpriced.
The Dusk Ports are insterested in trade as well, but they are also shadier than the people of the Windrise Ports. They often deal in piracy, slave-trading, and this kind of shaddy stuff.
Colonizing maybe is a good prospect for escaped slaves and young dragons wanting to create their own fiefs.
The Zaltec idea seems ok. But, Zaltec may have to deal with rivals from Faerūnian pantheon (the year one LFR adventures in the Windrise Ports list a few gods from Faerūn that had active cults in the Windrise Ports as of 1479; since those are year one adventures, anything there is canon). Zaltec's work won't be easy dealing with Tiamat, for instance. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 28 Mar 2019 02:57:31 |
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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2019 : 07:16:27
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
About the placement of Laerakond - the 4e FR Campaign Guide places the continent right near Evermeet but doesn't specify a particular direction. Since Evermeet is to the east of Anchorome/Maztica, I would place Laerakond to the south of Evermeet and east of Maztica, making the Windrise Ports a potential stop between Maztica and Faerūn.
Careful, I fell into that trap as well, but I can't outright remember all the statements that made me think it moved. I don't think Evermeet during 4e was where Evermeet was prior to the spellplague. Let me hunt down where it said it moved in addition to the being empty, etc.. to doublecheck that statement.
I could have sworn there was another reference, but in essence in the below we have Maztica leaving, Laerakond arriving where Maztica was, Evermeet going to the Feywild, and some "echo" of Evermeet appearing near Laerakond. Given how Evermeet first appeared (i.e. the original sundering tearing apart whole continents and flinging things all over), its not surprising then if the "echo" of Evermeet is not in the original spot of Evermeet. The continent to the west of Evermeet is Anchorome (Gold and Glory establishes that... there may be other references as well). Maztica is the smaller n-shaped landmass (which by the way is roughly the same general size and shape of Laerakond) at the bottom of Anchorome. Note, there's also references to Anchorome having islands, and said continent does have islands off its shore.
So, it would appear that Evermeet in 4e wasn't where Evermeet was prior to the spellplague, but its back now and that strange "echo" land is now gone. You know, one thing that kind of pops in my head based on this discussion. What if the "echo" land was actually occupying where Maztica was and Laerakond was actually where I'm showing it now (i.e. a little bit more south and west). It wouldn't be like anyone had points of reference to compare. It may very well be that the "echo" of Evermeet is now back in Abeir, and there could be gates connecting the echo and current Evermeet (allowing passage between the two worlds if one could access Evermeet's gate system).
4e FRCG page 84
The fey isle of Evermeet still lies more than a thousand miles west of the Sword Coastbut now the world has lost contact with this refuge, which has been relocated to the Feywild.
4e FRCG page 132
Arcana DC 40: Evermeet in fact survives in the Feywild. An echo of the fey refuge remains in Toril as an isle with the same shape and diameter, lying off the coast of the unfamiliar continent of Returned Abeir. The echo is empty of structures and has few residents. Evermeet fey can step back and forth between the echo and the Feywilds Evermeet as they choose.
4e FRCG page 87
The greatest portion of the returning world, however, replaced Maztica, the continent west of Faerūn. Now, a savage land breathes beneath a steely sky across the Trackless Sea: Returned Abeir. Here, ancient primordials sleep while their rapacious dragon mounts of old rule vast empires. It is from Abeir that dragonborn and genasi hail, steeped in lore previously unknown in Faerūn
It's the word "still" on page 84's quote that leads me to believe that Evermeet actually maintained its relative position rather than moving during the Spellplague.
Another possibility to consider for the location of Laerakond is that it was where Maztica is, then moved during the Second Sundering, from west/southwest of Evermeet to more directly south of Evermeet to make room for Maztica.
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2019 : 13:02:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
It depends. Laerakond has only two trade-focused powers, the Windrise Ports and the Dusk Ports. The other nations are either not insterested in making their own trade companies, or lack the resources to do it, depending on the Ports for their imports/exports needs
The people of the Windrise Ports are more insterested in trade. Getting new goods and selling their own, and getting rich. That kind of stuff is their primary concern. The worst they would do is smuggling and selling stuff overpriced.
The Dusk Ports are insterested in trade as well, but they are also shadier than the people of the Windrise Ports. They often deal in piracy, slave-trading, and this kind of shaddy stuff.
Colonizing maybe is a good prospect for escaped slaves and young dragons wanting to create their own fiefs.
The Zaltec idea seems ok. But, Zaltec may have to deal with rivals from Faerūnian pantheon (the year one LFR adventures in the Windrise Ports list a few gods from Faerūn that had active cults in the Windrise Ports as of 1479; since those are year one adventures, anything there is canon). Zaltec's work won't be easy dealing with Tiamat, for instance.
Hmmm, I'm not following LFR, can you point me to links for LFR adventures that specifically mention details on returned abeir as a place (i.e. less adventure content, more lore content). Also, you mentioned that Ed (and or possibly others) had done some dragon articles focused on Laerakond. IF it wouldn't be a pain to find, do you have those edition numbers? My interest in the place grows. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2019 : 13:37:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
It's the word "still" on page 84's quote that leads me to believe that Evermeet actually maintained its relative position rather than moving during the Spellplague.
Another possibility to consider for the location of Laerakond is that it was where Maztica is, then moved during the Second Sundering, from west/southwest of Evermeet to more directly south of Evermeet to make room for Maztica.
Yeah, that's what I originally went with, and for almost EXACTLY the same reasons you're thinking. I also had an interest in having Laerakond and Balduran Bay/Fort Flame interacting. It also actually sounds really good in the head, but then when you start placing it, it brings up a lot of issues. Just to further the discussion, as I've said before picture is worth a thousand words.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZzNe9gotQSplke3fayqvnz7pGIf8RZdP/view?usp=sharing
Again, I didn't exactly "measure" Laerakond for this, because the scholar's guide map was a good bit off. I might be able to shrink Laerakond maybe 20%. But still, this is a good representation I feel.
So, look at the red circled area south of Evermeet. Now consider what's EAST of that. Already, you can see that one portion of that's pretty much inline with Nimbral. So, this would pretty much put Laerakond as a pretty much "in your face" threat for the islands of the northmen and the Moonshaes and Lantan. It would also be unignorable threat to Evermeet as well. This wouldn't be something that I feel most people could ignore, and it would be news to the rest of the realms I'm feeling. In short, if this were true, we'd have seen news about it. This is why I also am inclined to stay away from putting it either integrated into the arm leading out of the Chultan Peninsula OR to the west of Chult. Its purely because nothing has been said to indicate it is there, so it opens up issues of "why hasn't anyone noticed".
However, if its west of Maztica... well, its SUDDENLY got 5 huge continents that just materialized along its northern, eastern, and southern borders (i.e. Anchorome, Maztica, Lopango, Katashaka, Myrmidune). Continents that LITERALLY dwarf it, and since it wasn't a unified place before, it would have to get its own houses in order. So, if noone's heard much from Laerakond the last five years, maybe that's because they've been assessing threats, sending out cartographers and explorers in the hundreds, trying to negotiate peace and alliances amongst their own countries, training people in entirely new languages, opening trade relations locally rather than in far flung ports, maybe even acquiring new territories. It becomes believable that for a few years, the people of Faerun were busy with their own changes, and maybe they heard small snippets from Laerakond. Maybe they even saw a couple ships. However, maybe the ships of Laerakond that were trying to come to Faerun have actually been getting hijacked by returning folks from Maztica, Lopango, Katashaka, Nimbral, Lantan, etc... all of which have suddenly appeared between them and Faerun. For all we know, Lantan might now have "techno-pirates" patrolling the seas with golems helping man their ships. The Nimbraii may have pirates that are using illusions to sneak up on ships and take them, seeking to build a navy out of captured ships.
Anyway, I guess the question I'm putting forth isn't just "should Laerakond stay", but more "if it stays, how is it affecting the rest of Toril, AND how is the rest of Toril affecting it". Because in my mind, the question of should it stay is easy. Yes. It was a valuable addition. 4e people liked it, and while I'm not a huge 4e fan, I'm not wanting to push anyone away from the table. But, before it was this "island unto itself". So was Maztica. So was Anchorome. Why? Those were all designed as "a contained thing". However, we've had enough time to explore them, understand their base workings, realize that some of their ideas (in all of them) were unoriginal and could use improvement. Moreso, I don't think any of these are golden cows that the FR community for the most part would say "you can't change a hair of it". This is different from say the story of Unther and Mulhorand which was just getting interesting in 3.5 and suddenly the whole storyline was just tossed aside. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2019 : 21:08:08
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I also believe that the point of having Laerakond remaining in Toril is to have it impacting the Realms. Even if you don't play there, it should contribute somehow to your campaign. If you play in Waterdeep, perhaps there is a small branch of the Tarmalune Trade House in town, for instace.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Hmmm, I'm not following LFR, can you point me to links for LFR adventures that specifically mention details on returned abeir as a place (i.e. less adventure content, more lore content). Also, you mentioned that Ed (and or possibly others) had done some dragon articles focused on Laerakond. IF it wouldn't be a pain to find, do you have those edition numbers? My interest in the place grows.
The LFR adventures set in Laerakond are the MINI1 series (set in the Windrise Ports), the QUES2 adventure (set in Gontal and Fimbrul), and the ABER4 series (set in the Dusk Ports). The MINI1 adventures have appendixes that have info about the cities each adventure takes place. Sadly, the other series' adventures don't have this.
You can download them from there:
Year 3 to 6 adventures (the ABER4 Series are here)
http://www.livingforgottenrealms.com/
Year 1 and 2 adventures (the MINI1 and QUES are here)
http://www.livingforgottenrealms.com/adventures.html
The Dragon articles expanding the lore about Laerakond are:
DR366: Gontal (by Bruce R. Cordell and Ed Greenwood) this super mysterious place that don't has any info in the FRCG.
DR372: Backdrop: Tarmalune (by Ed Greenwood) expands the info about this city from the FRCG
DR375: Gontal, Dominions of Nehu (by Bruce R. Cordell) This article expands the info about the Plagueland in Gontal.
DR376: Adventurers of the Realms: Tarmalune and the Windrise Ports (by Chris Tulach) this article canonizes and expands the info from the LFR MINI1 series. The info about Tarmalune is the same from Ed's article with a few bits of info here and there, but there is new info about the other Windrise Ports (that didn't had much info besides their small paragraphs in the FRCG).
There is also an "Eye on the Realms" article by Ed in Dungeon 193, named "The Winking Eyes of Rhauron" that adds this mysterious item to the Realmslore, adds an Elminster-like (but evil) figure to Laerakond, and canonizes the name "Laerakond", in fact. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 28 Mar 2019 22:29:56 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2019 : 13:29:33
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Zero,
THANK YOU! You are a great resource, and I love bouncing ideas off you because you aren't afraid to give feedback, and that improves things. I agree, it should impact the realms, BUT until we have something that makes it officially there, its probably best if we develop around the idea that "there's a reason we haven't heard much from them YET". Up until year 5 since the sundering (again, thinking that's where we're at), we've heard Nada, but if in year 6 they suddenly return in a vengeance, it can make sense with what we're doing so far. Whereas if they were almost directly butting up on the Moonshaes, Evermeet, the isles of the northmen, etc... there's no way there wouldn't be a furor around it already. It would be news of the realm.
Gotta start work, but this makes me want to read the dragon articles
and that dungeon article and its Elminster-like figure sounds interesting. I think after work today I'm gonna do some more map work to fill in Maztica/Anchorome/Lopango and then I'm gonna start filling in Laerakond where it currently sits and then the isles of Evermeet where they sit currently. That should get me all the KNOWN lands filled in on this map, and then I can share it up and different people can do different things with it as they wish to expand into different regions (i.e. you want to fill in Aurune, go ahead... you want to fill in Anchorome.... go ahead... you want to fill in Osse.. go ahead), and then turn around and use the map in their product with their own updates.
Which reminds me, I also want to install this program on my laptop that doesn't have the CC3+ program installed and then copy the map to that laptop and see if I'm able to view the map
https://www.profantasy.com/library/dpv.asp
I know not everyone is going to have this CC3+ software, but if they can get a viewer then at least they can view the file if not edit it (which makes the file a HELLUVA lot smaller than a jpeg or png file). In fact, if you, Seethyr, Diffan, or Storyteller Hero want to be a guinea pig and don't own the editing software but want to see if you can view the files, I'm willing to email the half-baked version of the map file while I'm still filling things in. If that's the case, just PM me (don't feel obligated, just throwing it out as an option). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 29 Mar 2019 13:41:31 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2019 : 14:23:17
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Well, tried it, but also as I was installing the viewer, noted this in the legaleeze.... so I can't (even if doing it for free) put up the file in CC3+ format on DMS Guild, but if I save it as JPEG or PNG, looks like I can. I'll just need to figure a way to get the files smaller. It would have been nice for them though, since I bet they'd get more purchasers of their software if the file itself could be freely distributed so that people could edit the actual map. Then again, people COULD do what I did and import the jpeg in as a layer, but then they have no ability to modify the general land shapes (such as moving Laerakond), remove existing cities, move text, etc... still options are there and I'd bet most people would be just taking a smaller region and focusing in on it.
LEGAL STUFF
USE OF SYMBOLS AND ARTWORK
This software product includes a large amount of symbols, fill-styles and other artwork in a variety of file formats (OUR ARTWORK). This section sets out how you can distribute maps containing OUR ARTWORK.
(i) Subject to the restrictions in section ii and iii, you may freely distribute the maps you create using OUR ARTWORK in CC3 format, but not the source image files (PNG and bitmap artwork) associated with them. You may freely distribute flat files (for example BMP and PNG) exported from CC3 containing OUR ARTWORK. You may publish such maps for commercial gain.
(ii) You may not redistribute any map that in our sole opinion is, or appears to be, for the purpose of disseminating OUR ARTWORK. Think of your maps as documents, and our symbols as fonts. You can print a document containing Times New Roman font, but you can't give the font file away, or produce a "font book".
(iii) You may not produce commercial products which consist predominantly of floorplan-resolution exports OUR ARTWORK without written permission from ProFantasy Software Ltd. This includes but is not limited to PDF dungeon tiles. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2019 : 20:57:19
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Well... We can always use other options.
Anyway, the more I think about this idea the more I like it. There is a lot of potential in this idea. What I like the most is that people from Laerakond, because of their philosophy and customs, will go to Maztica, Lopango, Katashaka and perhaps even Anchorome as traders instead of would-be conquerors (unless you're planning to use the dragons instead of humanoids), and this is something that I really welcome. What I don't like of 2e Maztica is that its flavor is "the Conquest but with elves".
The downside, however, is that there is no way that at this point culture in these places isn't going to be affected in some way or another. But well, Ed said that now (the 1500s) is a time of change in the Realms... |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 30 Mar 2019 00:11:33 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2019 : 22:52:12
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| Also bear in mind, that in those places, they've had 100 years in Abeir, so they may also be coming back changed. Populations may have become more savvy or even changed races entirely, etc... So, yeah, I'd agree, this opens up a lot of possibilities. Exactly how to deal with them is the question, but I can say most people weren't happy with the direct correlation to the Americas that was done. But we also don't want to see the place become just Faerun 2.0. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2019 : 00:19:46
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Plane Shift: Ixalan is a good example of pre-Columbian fantasy cultures well done. I guess that document is a good guide to create a Maztica that has a Pre-Columbian flavor without making it "not-colonial LatinAmerica but with elves".
https://media.wizards.com/2018/downloads/magic/plane-shift_ixalan.pdf |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2019 : 02:46:46
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Also bear in mind, that in those places, they've had 100 years in Abeir, so they may also be coming back changed. Populations may have become more savvy or even changed races entirely, etc... So, yeah, I'd agree, this opens up a lot of possibilities. Exactly how to deal with them is the question, but I can say most people weren't happy with the direct correlation to the Americas that was done. But we also don't want to see the place become just Faerun 2.0.
The gods of Anchorome/Maztica could have traveled together with the peoples of Anchorome/Maztica, in which case there could have been some conflict with the primordials in Abeir, and the people may be advancing their culture with materials taken from the bodies of fallen primordials.
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2019 : 04:58:53
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Or from the bodies of fallen gods. Most primordials are stronger that even greater deities. That's why the gods banded togheter in groups of 3 to 5 during to Dawn War to face just a single primordial, and why most primordials were sealed instead of killed during that war; and why Ao deemed the creation of Abeir a necessety after the gods won: the few remaining primordials were still a threat for the gods (Entropy was used as a deterrent for the whole Faerūnian pantheon, for instance). So, in a conflict between gods and primordials, the gods are always on the losing side.
Even if those dead gods and primordials were later restored to life during the Sundering, is posible that the corpses of their former incarnations remained. And that the memory of their temporal dead haunts them still. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 30 Mar 2019 05:02:01 |
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The Case for Laerakond Remaining in 1490s DR
