| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Dark_Lord |
Posted - 26 Jan 2003 : 21:59:49
I would like to know your opinion about who is the strongest god.. BANE or cyric..
I believe the Bane is the all powerful god and Cyric is just a foolish x-mortal with a mental problem and the scum of the earth as worshippers.. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Brimstone |
Posted - 09 Feb 2009 : 07:08:23
-Welcome to Candlekeep Drizztsmanchild.  Its nice to have another Cyricist in the fold. 
BRIMSTONE(FREE LORD CYRIC!)  |
| Drizztsmanchild |
Posted - 09 Feb 2009 : 06:50:13
Spoiler ahead don't read if you don't know where Cyric is in 4e.
When Cyric gets released I'm sure if it came down to a battle between Bane and Cyric well any god who can:
1. Murder Mystra on her own plane no less
2. Make pandamonium(synonym for Chaos by the way) his own plane.
3. Dim the essence of Ao and appear at the meeting in Ao's realm without being summoned(granted his was sorta disillusioned by the Holiest of Tomes but still have that power) is pretty much a Bada$$.
As for allies well I can think of 2 right off the bat.
Asmodeus who would accept another oppurtunity to appease his insatiable hunger for godflesh.
Shar: He's worked with her before. Though he definately wouldn't trust her this time.
All hail the Lord of Many spheres.:emp: |
| Lodis Knight |
Posted - 01 Feb 2009 : 16:21:11
With all the set backs Bane has, he keeps going... or coming back. And as much as I dislike 4E, Bane certain acquired a nice entourage. He needs to take out Kelemvor and bring back some fallen deities into his service. Just think of the Dark Triad being back in action and with corrupt and/or undead evil versions of Tyr, Helm, Ibrandul, Karsus or even a Mystra. You've got the Untheric, Mulhorandi and some non-human deity remains just floating around in the astral waiting to be nercomanced too. Some tulips and candles could go long a way you know
Cyric has no subservient deities. I guess I could see a new Dark Triad of Shar, Cyric and Ghaunadaur. Although Shar and Ghaunadar were better as evil behind the scene deities. Cyric does get points in my book for Tiax though. Now only if Tiax would rise up absorb Cyric...  |
| Edain Shadowstar |
Posted - 30 Jan 2009 : 12:28:41
Its rather hard to vigorous, even if youthful, when you are a grade A whack-a-doo.
Edit: Or perhaps, more saliently, its difficult to direct that vigor at one's enemies rather than at one's self, as Cyric seems so fond of doing. |
| Alisttair |
Posted - 30 Jan 2009 : 12:17:11
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigs13
I can live in denial
la la la happy thoughts .....
Back to the point,
Bane is surely the more powerful entity, with eons of knowledge and experience he would be able to destroy cyric 100 times over before the moratl pretender could even work out how to tie his shoes.
"Power without understanding is ultimately futile"
The vigor of youth might be the deciding factor though |
| Wrigs13 |
Posted - 30 Jan 2009 : 09:15:19
I can live in denial
la la la happy thoughts .....
Back to the point,
Bane is surely the more powerful entity, with eons of knowledge and experience he would be able to destroy cyric 100 times over before the moratl pretender could even work out how to tie his shoes.
"Power without understanding is ultimately futile" |
| ranger_of_the_unicorn_run |
Posted - 30 Jan 2009 : 00:34:37
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigs13
Why does nothing make sense in 4e? I was quite happy to accept the Bane to Cyric in 2e and Cyric to Bane in 3e, but 4e???
Well, you don't really have to pay attention to 4e if you don't want. There are a lot of people on here that go about there business as if 4e doesn't exist. If you want to talk about pre-4e lore, feel free. |
| Wrigs13 |
Posted - 29 Jan 2009 : 21:56:16
Why does nothing make sense in 4e? I was quite happy to accept the Bane to Cyric in 2e and Cyric to Bane in 3e, but 4e??? |
| Nerfed2Hell |
Posted - 29 Jan 2009 : 21:39:55
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Nerfed2Hell
I like Bane.
I didn't like Cyric as a mortal, and nothing from his ascension to divine status to the rediculous 4e nonsense wherein he supposedly kills the goddess of magic in her home plane has improved him in any way, shape, or form in my eyes.
Mortal Cyric is part of why I don't like divine Cyric. He was an opportunistic git, willing to leave others hanging out to dry for the sake of his own convenience. I see him as being more pathetic than anything else -- he'd be pitiable, if it wasn't for how pathetic he is.
See, the "opportunistic git" part actually made him a perfect replacement for the Dead Three at the end of the Time of Troubles... but perfect replacement does not equate to being an awesome god. He was good as a substitute who should have been deposed by a better god (or gods) in short order, or at least been a constant disgrace to the title of divinity. |
| Ghost King |
Posted - 29 Jan 2009 : 04:12:49
Bhaal was just a better god of murder and a cooler sounding name to boot. But what are you going to do?
Cyric is just a nut job and while he is always unpredictable, you can always count on him being as such, therefore, he is really predictable.
Anyways, as for Bane vs. Cyric, doesn't matter they're both dead, they just don't know it yet. RSE is the overdeity of Ao and it makes the rules. Even if they don't make logical sense (except for changing editions). |
| Drew |
Posted - 29 Jan 2009 : 04:00:48
Bane wins hands down... Bane can get longer lasting allies, and if he sweetens the deal, will off intrigue and deception back to Mask for his help, illusions to Shar... I'm sure Bane would keep murder and possibly lies for himself.
What alliances can Cyric seriously pull off when his power is going to be divided up like that... |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 29 Jan 2009 : 03:18:02
quote:
Originally posted by Edain Shadowstar
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert:
...he'd be pitiable, if it wasn't for how pathetic he is.
Is that even possible? I mean, wow...that's really pathetic.
If someone does all the right things, and/or simply fails to do anything wrong, and still gets the shaft, then you can pity them. When someone causes trouble for himself (making himself crazy by reading the Cyrinishad, or by choosing expediency over honor and moral) mostly out of their own pettiness, then they are pathetic.
Cyric had a chance to be be noble and rise above his past. If he had tried and failed, he could be pitied. He didn't try, though. He failed, and then basically revelled in it by becoming more and more evil. That's what makes him pathetic. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 29 Jan 2009 : 03:12:58
quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
... Looks like I forgot about the main topic, my apologies.
Bane could not beat Cyric because he is in fact his tender son, Iyatchu Xvim, impersonating him since he died during the time of trouble. By doing this, Ao allowed him to get some his dead father's portfolios back from Cyric, but he doesn't have his father's intelligence or wisdom, making him a lesser foe than Cyric, the expert manipulator.
I know I know, none of this is cannon, but it should be.
It's my favorite theory about Bane's return.  |
| Edain Shadowstar |
Posted - 29 Jan 2009 : 02:42:41
Frankly, I'm rather shocked that Cyric's church has not eviscerated itself already. I found that part at the beginning of Crucible really funny, when the Cyricists laid siege to Candlekeep. I mean, Cyricists...working together? |
| Arion Elenim |
Posted - 29 Jan 2009 : 01:58:31
I will say this - Bane does seem to lose. A lot. But as we said before, Cyric's only happy if he's rending his OWN flesh. So I think an-all battle between the two churches would leave them both in ruins, as much from self-destruction due to a constant need come up in the ranks as anything else... |
| Edain Shadowstar |
Posted - 28 Jan 2009 : 23:39:48
quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan:
Let me remind you of an important fact. The reason ALL the gods were cast down was not because of the tablet's theft in itself. Ao did it to teach a most important lesson that ALL the gods needed to learn, take care of your followers. The gods, all of them, forgot their role, which is to serve the mortals, not the other way around. They have been given their power to preserve the balance, and in exchange the mortals can worship them (or they can choose not to, though they will suffer the consequence later, but they do have a choice). Since the time of trouble, the god's power is directly proportional to his portfolio AND the quantity/power of his worshiper. It serve has a reminder of that harsh lesson, so they won't forget again.
True, but the theft of the tablets was the catalyst to whole daisy chain that lead to Ao kicking the gods to the curb, and therefore are linked directly to the response. One might, in fact, argue that the theft of the tablets was the proof Ao needed to come to the conclusion that the gods had strayed from the true way of the divine, which is pretty screwed up considering one can readily expect Bane to eventually try stealing them in a power play. Thus I see it as sorta screwing Bane for being Bane, something that seems out of whack, considering that gods are not just expected, but obliged (as demonstrated in Crucible) to act in accordance with their portfolios. I suppose this argument is sort of a chicken and the egg thing (from my position), in that if the determination that the gods needed punishment was precipitated directly from the theft of the tablets (as I believe) then its screwed up, because it faults Bane for behaving as he is required. If it is, on the other hand, something Ao believed needed doing before Bane made his play, then its seems pretty weird that he waited until someone gave him public pretext, he is after all the Overgod, its not an elected position and he doesn't need cover to smote some divinities.
quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan:
Attacking a symbol is in my humble opinion much worse than attacking someone, or a group of people. Yes, killing Mystra had disastrous consequences, but by stealing the tablets (from his "boss" no less) Bane figuratively spat at Ao's face and his (un)holy has a god. But, as stated above, this was only part of the reasons of Ao's wrath.
I absolutely agree about the importance of symbols. That having been said, I find it hard to believe any symbol is more important that the continued existence of the Realms, which seems to have been threatened by the Spellplague. More than that however, the annihilation of the variety of the deities unable to protect themselves from the Spellplague seems likely to have presented a serious threat to the balance of divine power between the various forces. Then again, that may simply be my own interpretation.
quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
There you go, I think that sentence concludes this "debate". I may seem like I defend the spellplague, but I don't. I try to stay rational on the matter even though I hate it. I just think that Cyric's punishment and Ao's reaction about it is as it should be.
I suppose my point about changes to justify edition changes was that they serve to achieve their primary objective first and foremost (provide a lord explanation for changes made to the game) and any sense of internal consistency as a distant second, and little more than that. I was, I suppose, trying to hedge myself with regards to the meta-reasoning behind the Cyric-Mystra-Spellplague thing, rather than the internal, setting-based reasoning (i.e. would Ao do this; did Shar doing that exceed her authority; etc.). I guess it was sort of conflating two different arguments. |
| Kilvan |
Posted - 28 Jan 2009 : 23:32:42
... Looks like I forgot about the main topic, my apologies.
Bane could not beat Cyric because he is in fact his tender son, Iyatchu Xvim, impersonating him since he died during the time of trouble. By doing this, Ao allowed him to get some his dead father's portfolios back from Cyric, but he doesn't have his father's intelligence or wisdom, making him a lesser foe than Cyric, the expert manipulator.
I know I know, none of this is cannon, but it should be. |
| Kilvan |
Posted - 28 Jan 2009 : 23:23:33
quote:
Originally posted by Edain Shadowstar
I suppose my greatest issue is that Bane steals some tablets (with his buddy's help) for reasons well within his portfolio's limit and all the gods get booted from the heavens. Cyric kill Mystra because he hates her because she liked Kelemvor more than him back when they were mortals (okay, I'm being unfair here, but its more fun to cast it this way) and so he kill hers, an act well within his portfolio's mandates and all he gets is house a rest for a minute.
Let me remind you of an important fact. The reason ALL the gods were cast down was not because of the tablet's theft in itself. Ao did it to teach a most important lesson that ALL the gods needed to learn, take care of your followers. The gods, all of them, forgot their role, which is to serve the mortals, not the other way around. They have been given their power to preserve the balance, and in exchange the mortals can worship them (or they can choose not to, though they will suffer the consequence later, but they do have a choice). Since the time of trouble, the god's power is directly proportional to his portfolio AND the quantity/power of his worshiper. It serve has a reminder of that harsh lesson, so they won't forget again
quote:
Originally posted by Edain Shadowstar
One guy attacks something that is merely a symbol, another puts the very safety of the Realms in real jeopardy .
Attacking a symbol is in my humble opinion much worse than attacking someone, or a group of people. Yes, killing Mystra had disastrous consequences, but by stealing the tablets (from his "boss" no less) Bane figuratively spat at Ao's face and his (un)holy duty as a god. But, as stated above, this was only part of the reasons of Ao's wrath.
quote:
Originally posted by Edain Shadowstar
Well, I guess there's no point arguing with changes made to justify a new edition.
There you go, I think that sentence concludes this "debate". I may seem like I defend the spellplague, but I don't. I try to stay rational on the matter even though I hate it. I just think that Cyric's punishment and Ao's reaction about it is as it should be. |
| Edain Shadowstar |
Posted - 28 Jan 2009 : 23:21:24
quote:
Originally posted by Wooley Rupert:
...he'd be pitiable, if it wasn't for how pathetic he is.
Is that even possible? I mean, wow...that's really pathetic.
I would agree that Cyric is, in my opinion, unappealing because Cyric, more than others, seems to be under the influence of all his mortal baggage, despite being the Lord of Murder and way past needing to care if mommy loved him. Plus, I've never warmed to the concept of someone often characterized as ax crazy or near to it as being so capable of always having his plans succeed (I find the idea of him orchestrating the Helm/Tyr thing especially absurd).
quote:
Originally posted by Brynweir:
Perhaps with the tablets there was a punishment from Ao because they were told specifically not to touch them - "bad kiddies". At no time, that I know of, did Ao tell them not to murder each other... Heck, it's their jobs for some of them- so long as the balance is maintained.
Maybe, but it strikes me as somewhat unfair, or rather unbalanced if you prefer, to create a system of power and then say if you try tampering with it you get spanked. I mean, for most gods that's okay, but does it not somewhat unfairly single out the Supreme Tyrant, who's very portfolio enjoins him to usurp authority and establish his ultimate tyranny, for a hard spanking. Sure, its fine for Tyr the Just, Helm the Guardian, Torm, the Loyal Fury and even guys like Bhaal, Lord of Murder, and Myrkul, Old Lord Skull, but its sorta setting up Bane to fail, and thats not very balanced.
Hmmm...I guess I should stop now. I've sorta meandered off the path of this thread. |
| Brimstone |
Posted - 28 Jan 2009 : 23:10:14
quote:
Originally posted by Brynweir
Perhaps with the tablets there was a punishment from Ao because they were told specifically not to touch them - "bad kiddies". At no time, that I know of, did Ao tell them not to murder each other... Heck, it's their jobs for some of them- so long as the balance is maintained.
As for who's better... neither. Cyric is so unpredictable that even he doesn't know what he's doing half the time, and Bane, well, I really don't know that he's any better, even if he makes more sense. Both are just sort of "meh, so what?" for me.
Personally, I think Emperor Jagang- the Dreamwalker- would make a much better replacement for either of them
(Sorry about the outside reference, but that dude scares the hell out of me... )
-That does make some sense. See I hate the TSR version of Cyric. They made him out to be an idiot. I like the new and improved direction Wizards has taken him. FREE LORD CYRIC!
BRIMSTONE |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 28 Jan 2009 : 23:08:44
quote:
Originally posted by Nerfed2Hell
I like Bane.
I didn't like Cyric as a mortal, and nothing from his ascension to divine status to the rediculous 4e nonsense wherein he supposedly kills the goddess of magic in her home plane has improved him in any way, shape, or form in my eyes.
Mortal Cyric is part of why I don't like divine Cyric. He was an opportunistic git, willing to leave others hanging out to dry for the sake of his own convenience. I see him as being more pathetic than anything else -- he'd be pitiable, if it wasn't for how pathetic he is. |
| Brynweir |
Posted - 28 Jan 2009 : 23:06:33
Perhaps with the tablets there was a punishment from Ao because they were told specifically not to touch them - "bad kiddies". At no time, that I know of, did Ao tell them not to murder each other... Heck, it's their jobs for some of them- so long as the balance is maintained.
As for who's better... neither. Cyric is so unpredictable that even he doesn't know what he's doing half the time, and Bane, well, I really don't know that he's any better, even if he makes more sense. Both are just sort of "meh, so what?" for me.
Personally, I think Emperor Jagang- the Dreamwalker- would make a much better replacement for either of them
(Sorry about the outside reference, but that dude scares the hell out of me... ) |
| Brimstone |
Posted - 28 Jan 2009 : 23:05:57
-Beware of Cyric and a toothpick.
BRIMSTONE |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 28 Jan 2009 : 23:05:57
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
-Bane would lose because he is predictable.  Cyric isn't.
BRIMSTONE
Being unpredictable just means that your opponent has to be smarter about choosing his battle. You can be as unpredictable as anything, but if your choices are limited to a few selected by your opponent, you've got no advantage there. |
| Nerfed2Hell |
Posted - 28 Jan 2009 : 23:01:39
I like Bane.
I didn't like Cyric as a mortal, and nothing from his ascension to divine status to the rediculous 4e nonsense wherein he supposedly kills the goddess of magic in her home plane has improved him in any way, shape, or form in my eyes. |
| Brimstone |
Posted - 28 Jan 2009 : 22:49:40
-Bane would lose because he is predictable. Cyric isn't.
BRIMSTONE |
| lowtech |
Posted - 28 Jan 2009 : 21:43:58
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Oh, and while Cyric does have the craziness going for him, Bane's got more style with being all about tyranny. I tend to think that both of them are of the "Ooh, evil is scary!" mold, so neither one really works for me. But if I had to choose between the two, I think Bane is more effective and easier to understand, and thus the better deity.
I think Bane corresponds well enough to successful "evil" ideologies and political/social systems of the real world to make him believable as a greater power dependent on the the size and enthusiasm of his worshipers; Cyric is not (he might be able to attract enough people to make it as a lesser power, though). I prefer to assume that he and similar evil gods present a much more "moderate" front than is commonly portrayed (human sacrifice is officially denied,etc)and that their power is partially dependent on the degree to which their portfolio permeates the prime material plane. |
| Edain Shadowstar |
Posted - 28 Jan 2009 : 21:23:45
quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan:
You seem to forget that Cyric is the god of murder. Why should Ao punish him because he killed someone? Correct me if I'm wrong, but Ao played no part in emprisoning him for 1000 years, Tyr and his allies did. In other words, did Cyric mess up the realms? Yes. Did he overstepped his portfolios? No. The balance is preserved.. I guess, if they restore a new god of the weave (riiiiiight)
In of itself, I can agree that Cyric's actions are within the purview of his divine ethos, him being the Lord of Murder. But by the same token, stealing the Tablets of Fate and making a grab for ultimate power (that seeming to have been how Bane viewed it, whether or not said view was in line with reality) is not exactly something I would call outside the expected behavior of the Supreme Tyrant.
I suppose my greatest issue is that Bane steals some tablets (with his buddy's help) for reasons well within his portfolio's limit and all the gods get booted from the heavens. Cyric kill Mystra because he hates her because she liked Kelemvor more than him back when they were mortals (okay, I'm being unfair here, but its more fun to cast it this way) and so he kill hers, an act well within his portfolio's mandates and all he gets is house a rest for a minute.
One guy attacks something that is merely a symbol, another puts the very safety of the Realms in real jeopardy . Both act in accordance with expected norms from the Lord of Tyranny and Lord of Murder, respectively, and yet Cyric get a slap on the wrist from some divine avenging rangers (Tyr, Lathander and Sune...SUNE?! Okay...) and Bane steals a powerless symbol and Ao expels everyone from the heavens. I guess I find it somewhat inconsistent.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooley Rupert:
...and letting Shar usurp his position by not letting a new deity of magic arise...
Color me shocked that a deity was allowed to overstep the rules to allow for the elimination of the hated Mystra. In the context of Realms history, the whole Mystra dying thing always puzzled me. She's bit the big one twice before and there's always been a replacement, but third death is the trick? Bam, no more goddess of magic? What, is she like the Doctor or something? Only with only two regenerations and not thirteen? Well, I guess there's no point arguing with changes made to justify a new edition. |
| Arion Elenim |
Posted - 28 Jan 2009 : 19:42:30
quote:
You seem to forget that Cyric is the god of murder. Why should Ao punish him because he killed someone? Correct me if I'm wrong, but Ao played no part in emprisoning him for 1000 years, Tyr and his allies did. In other words, did Cyric mess up the realms? Yes. Did he overstepped his portfolios? No. The balance is preserved.. I guess, if they restore a new god of the weave (riiiiiight)
Exactly. It does seem fishy.
In what was originally another short story and what is now shaping up to be a full-length novel I'm throwing together right now, I'm putting a different spin on the whole fiasco. Just wanted to see if some fellow scribes thought that Cyric's imprisonment and the apparent lack of 'penalties' beyond that seem a little distorted... |
| Brimstone |
Posted - 28 Jan 2009 : 19:27:58
-Maybe AO read the Cyrininshad(sp )! 
BRIMSTONE |
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