| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| AuldDragon |
Posted - 10 Sep 2017 : 04:11:08
Are there any canonical locations of (relatively) large kenku populations in the Realms from around the 1360s or so?
Jeff |
| 17 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 12 Sep 2017 : 18:44:40
Also, Mindulgulph Company has kenku troops in Gold and Glory. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 12 Sep 2017 : 13:48:41
gotcha, so other than calling them handsome, there's nothing to indicate what they look like. They could be "handsome" just because they (unlike the crow and hawk headed kenku) have beautiful mandarin duck-like/parrot-like/hummingbird-like/Hildebrandt starling-like/parakeet-like/peacock-like colorations.... and yes, the reason why I posted all those was to make you go look at pretty bird pictures in google.... I'm insidious like that.
Also, I may have misspoke on the Krestung in that it doesn't say anything about having arms or being humanoid. They could simply be a giant beast like rocs, manticores and chimera, but with a vulture body, long neck like a vulture but possibly even longer, and a somewhat wolf-like head. |
| BadCatMan |
Posted - 12 Sep 2017 : 12:49:41
That's the one. But as for the picture, I figured it was meant to be Xithiaz Jui, the wu jen of Tu Pe, "who can change men into beasts and fly". It's no stretch to imagine the artist read it as "who can change into beasts and fly". It was the closest match, but its too much of a supposition for the purposes of the wiki) to think it's the birdmen who shape-shift.
All the pictures in the KTCS are ambiguous and not adjacent to what they might represent, unfortunately. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 12 Sep 2017 : 12:20:55
quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan
And of course tengu come in two kinds: short crow-heads and taller, human-heads (though still kind of long-nosed and beaky). So variation in breed is built into them.
I've often wondered about the "bird-men" in the Vorkani Mountains of Koryo in Kara-Tur. Too handsome to be tengu, they could be some other race, or retroactively avariel or raptorans (the Koryo chapter of the KTCS tended to make up new, unstatted monsters rather than use existing monsters, which opens possibilities but isn't helpful).
Not much to do with kenku, but I'm reminded of the demonic hawk-men with their mouths in their chests that devour those they embrace in Beastmaster (movie and series). Creepy AF. And they're allies. 
Just wondering, are you talking about these entries from Kara-Tur: The Eastern Realms boxed set?
I used to daydream of the birdmen, those handsome rulers of the highest peaks. You know, I saw the skeleton of a birdman on display at the Nikanii bazaar, and the man who had it said he had killed a giant spider and found it in the thing#146;s lair. The Krestung haunt the deeper recesses of Vorkani, a mighty vulture with a neck like a serpent and the head of a wolf! They fly in packs and have raided well-protected caravans, carrying off whole horses and even men! I#146;ve seen hideous pictures of those evil things.
If so, yeah, there is very little to go on for the "handsome rulers of the highest peaks". The previous page shows a picture of some kind of mix of different birds in transitional phases. If anything, I'd say they're shapechangers or lyncanthropes who can change into variously doves and/or cranes from the picture. It is definitely cranes... the doves, well, it could be any songbird actually. In fact, were I to ever do anything with it, I'd make it some fey race like the lythari, but with the ability to change into birds instead of wolves.
The Krestung actually sound a lot like the marrashi. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 12 Sep 2017 : 00:41:42
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Well, thats what I was saying - the Manni have no arms (they have wings instead, just like a real bird), so we can easily 'fudge' the lore by saying there were always two kinds of Kenku, and if we don't mind losing a redundant species, we could say the two branches of Kenku are the armed Dire Corby (usually simply referred to as 'Kenku'), and the winged variety, known as Manni (normally - but not always - seen in the east). I suppose if we crossed a raptoran with a kenku we could get one that was both winged and armed (perhaps some sort of 'epic' variant?) EDIT: I just realized - thats an Aarakocra.* 
And how do you get a raptoran? Its when an Avariel 'gets frisky' with a kenku. 
This cuts both ways, however. As in, diverging breeds would average on the common ancestor.
E.g. if you put 10 different breeds of guppies in one aquarium, you'll see generic greyish mongrels in 2 generations at most, and in 2 more these will be all young guppies you see there. Or, a bunch of dogs left alone, etc.
quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan
I've often wondered about the "bird-men" in the Vorkani Mountains of Koryo in Kara-Tur. Too handsome to be tengu, they could be some other race, or retroactively avariel or raptorans (the Koryo chapter of the KTCS tended to make up new, unstatted monsters rather than use existing monsters, which opens possibilities but isn't helpful).
Not even retroactively - they appeared with some differences back before AD&D1, if you count the "Al Karak Elam" from Dragon #51 and Ee'aar.
(Avariel thread), (Aearee thread), (Creator Races thread) |
| Markustay |
Posted - 11 Sep 2017 : 15:50:49
To add to the confusion, I went looking in Zakhara for a similar creature, and although they don't exactly have a 'birdman', their Simurgh are a lot more 'humanoid' than the traditional ones - although still very much 'a bird' (with FOUR wings), they have human faces. Almost like the opposite of the tengu.
Perhaps their (Zakharan) simurghs found and crossbred with some harpies - who knows? Not that the two should get along...
I forgot how many very cool creatures Zakhara had... we need to borrow some.  |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 11 Sep 2017 : 12:28:18
Yeah, so we have the ORIGINAL aarakocra & Manni all as the "wings instead of arms", but each a different kind of bird. Then we have the NEW aarakocra and the ORIGINAL Kenku and Tengu having wings and arms. We also have the marrashi and raptorans as the same as aarakocra, but with a different head (marrashi being canine-headed, and raptoran being humanoid) and arms resembling the head. Then we had the dire corbies and NEW Kenku which were basically crowheaded and wingless. I agree... let's chalk it up to people not knowing what to call things and the names getting mixed up by people over time. Its seems to be what's happened in real life. |
| BadCatMan |
Posted - 11 Sep 2017 : 09:44:18
And of course tengu come in two kinds: short crow-heads and taller, human-heads (though still kind of long-nosed and beaky). So variation in breed is built into them.
I've often wondered about the "bird-men" in the Vorkani Mountains of Koryo in Kara-Tur. Too handsome to be tengu, they could be some other race, or retroactively avariel or raptorans (the Koryo chapter of the KTCS tended to make up new, unstatted monsters rather than use existing monsters, which opens possibilities but isn't helpful).
Not much to do with kenku, but I'm reminded of the demonic hawk-men with their mouths in their chests that devour those they embrace in Beastmaster (movie and series). Creepy AF. And they're allies. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 11 Sep 2017 : 06:46:17
Well, thats what I was saying - the Manni have no arms (they have wings instead, just like a real bird), so we can easily 'fudge' the lore by saying there were always two kinds of Kenku, and if we don't mind losing a redundant species, we could say the two branches of Kenku are the armed Dire Corby (usually simply referred to as 'Kenku'), and the winged variety, known as Manni (normally - but not always - seen in the east). I suppose if we crossed a raptoran with a kenku we could get one that was both winged and armed (perhaps some sort of 'epic' variant?) EDIT: I just realized - thats an Aarakocra.*
And how do you get a raptoran? Its when an Avariel 'gets frisky' with a kenku.
This particualr discussion is getting me in the mood to play a 'hawkman' character the next time I get to be a player. Not DC comics Hawkman, more like Flash Gordon (winged Vikings). And then there is 'Bird Person' from Rick & Morty. Now THERE is a show we need to draw more inspiration from - the whole thing is about 'going on adventures'.
*And now looking at THEM, I see the Aarakocra have also been tweaked over the years - their hands used to be at the ends of their wings, but now they have both arms and wings. Weird. |
| AuldDragon |
Posted - 11 Sep 2017 : 05:40:23
Manni are also in MC11 Forgotten Realms Appendix II, where they have a flying speed and clearly have wings. Now, unlike 2nd Ed Kenku, they don't have extra arms, and they could have lost the extra wing structure to become the wingless kenku, but they clearly are capable of flight on that monster sheet.
Jeff |
| Markustay |
Posted - 11 Sep 2017 : 05:24:40
The Manni of The Hordelands are the armless (winged) Kenku. We could now chalk up the two types to 'in-setting confusion' (uncertain 3rd person reporting), rather than say they were changed. Given the relative closeness of the Hordelands to Veldorn, I would hazard to guess some high 'bird-man' activity in the Giant's belt Mountain region (the chain separating those two areas). Or you can go to town and say one is a debased (corrupted) form of the other (perhaps some archmage's hybrid project - giving arms to Manni by crossing it with a Dire Corby) And as BatCatMan pointed out, on the other side of the Hordelands we have Kara-Tur, with the slightly different birdfolk, the Tengu. Or maybe they're all 'leftovers' from the Aeree creators.
Manni (also called kara) can be found in the extended bestiary (MM's) for The Hordelands found in Dragon Magazine #163, "A Hoard for the Horde" (no pg.# because it was a pull-out section). |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 11 Sep 2017 : 02:03:06
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19959 |
| Gyor |
Posted - 10 Sep 2017 : 18:32:19
Well in 5e they look like crow people and are cursed.
Quirlinn and other Gods of the Aaree are probably long gone after they're, empires collapsed. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 10 Sep 2017 : 11:56:35
Hmmm, not sure where to take this info yet BadCatMan, but thank you... I had not realized that they had mixed up a couple different groups.
So, both the Kenku and the dire corby were introduced in the original TSR fiend folio. The Kenku had a hawk head, not a raven one, and it had wings. The dire corby was wingless and black. In 3rd edition, they seem to have tried to bring the "dire corby" to the surface and meld it with the kenku story of being thieves.
Then there's the Tengu which are from the 1e oriental adventures, and were like mini-kenku (2-3 feet tall) but with crow heads.
I think I like the idea that "Kenku" is a race and "dire corbie" is a subset of that race who have been cursed, and that the Tengu are the uncursed version of the "dire corbie", and that rumors of their height in OA were off and that they are medium.
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| BadCatMan |
Posted - 10 Sep 2017 : 07:07:29
The Beastlands is the name given to Veldorn in 4th edition. Slightly bigger, more developed, and changed, but the same monster land.
Then there's the tengu in Kara-Tur, which might be the ancestors of the western kenku. I'm inclined to treat them all as related races. And, you know, birds of a feather flock together.  (I sorted out the whole kenku/kenku/tengu situation for the wiki last year, and I'm eager to demonstrate.)
If bringing Quorlinn into the Time of Troubles, there's a potential explanation for the change in the kenku: they lost their wings in the Time of Troubles, and changed from hawks to ravens, as a result of Quorlinn's misadventures. Perhaps a scrape with Pazuzu saw their wings stolen and their natures corrupted. |
| AuldDragon |
Posted - 10 Sep 2017 : 06:40:47
Well, I'm trying to decide on where Quorlinn's avatar appeared during the Time of Troubles, and would assume he would appear in the most established population of kenku. For this I'm inclined to ignore the differences and assume that they're all the same and let DMs choose which version they prefer for their games.
Zazesspur would probably work well for my purposes since I'm far more familiar with it than Estagund, and I have no idea what the Beastlands are. :)
Jeff |
| BadCatMan |
Posted - 10 Sep 2017 : 04:17:06
Do you want 1st/2nd-edition kenku or 3rd/4th-edition kenku?
The original winged kenku have appeared in the Realms, but never really been said to live anywhere in particular.
The later wingless kenku have been said to live in Zazesspur, and in the Shining Lands of Estagund and Veldorn, eventually having their own community in the Beastlands in 4th edition. |
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