| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Barastir |
Posted - 09 Aug 2017 : 15:00:46
Bladesong used to be an ancient art. In fact, in older editions it was not oficially stated the time this style first appeared in Faerūn, but the existence of fey'ri and avariel bladesingers suggested it existed for a long time.
Using non-oficial sources (Sypa's), I linked the disappearance of the avariel with the Dracorage Mythal affair, and so the bladesong would be older than that. The bladesong origin suggested there also put the origin of bladesong before the Sundering, but the date of this event was moved to the future (after the Mythal event) in the Grand History of the Realms.
I solved this problem in my game by having the avariel developing their own style, similar in swordsmanship subtlety but not linked to magic in any way - using the eeaar of the Red Steel setting as a reference -, and keeping the fey'ri as bladesingers, since their corruption occurred later. I haven't read The Year of the Rogue Dragons trilogy, but I haven't found references of Taegan using magic, so my solution would not contradict the novels.
Besides, Sypa's archives stated that the style was probably created by an unknown moon elf in a long past. In my game there is a legend that says that this first bladesinger would be Tethrin Veraldé, sometimes considered a demigod and son of Corellon Larethian (other legends link the style to Corellon himself, or to his solar servitors Lashrael and Felarathael).
But then again, in 5e there is a statement saying that the bladesong style is quite new... Why this change now, and how to deal with it? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Barastir |
Posted - 29 Aug 2017 : 12:03:25
This is a nice history entry, and cool styles. I've also made my own style's list a few years ago, including not only the present schools and masters and where can you find them, but also the stories of lost schools or styles. But 5e canon now brings something, in the SCAG. |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 20 Aug 2017 : 20:15:55
As for the origin of the bladesong, I usually go to the fey history of the elves, before they even walked on Toril but after they began settling material worlds.
I am partial to the myth that the art of the bladesong was created by Corellon himself at the Seelie Court, before he ascended to godhood. The impossibly thin seelie-knight most likely used the bladesong with his star-crafted sword sahandrian at that time, explosively carving the path for his later creations through giant and dragon infested universes.
I usually tie study of the bladesong to lodges, recognizable by their totem animal. These are in turn organised by the relic-weapons and their secret techniques passed down and/or copied at the totem animal lodge. The more popular Cat, Wolf and Lion lodges favor (baskethilted) shortswords, bastard swords, and longswords, while the rarely seen Bear and Boar lodges practice axes and cudgels, and the reclusive Hawk and Eagle lodges train with shortspear and its unorthodox techniques.
These ancient lodges are so respected largely because the trained techniques come from a time when fighting foes many times your size was commonplace since the world was dominated by giantkin and dragonkind who typically dwarf elves and the demi-human races in both size and elemental ability. This lead to the elves creating powerful arms and armor, and developing techniques to use them to both effectively and creatively against far mightier foes. The balanced forms and fortified enchantments probably worked as a anchor against the brute force of Giants and the dancelike evasive steps combined with timely abjurations might have frustrated dragon ferocity. Those early bladesingers surviving giant and dragon encounters could pass on the techniques that worked, and probably were essential in the early spread of the elven race across the multiverse.
Several members of those lodges might have settled on Toril during the interloping years of the elves. I named the Sun and Moon elven ones the White Lion, Black Cat and Grey Wolf lodges, while the Avariel and Sea-Elves had some time independently developing the lance based Sky Hawk and harpoon based Sea Hawk lodge. |
| Diffan |
Posted - 15 Aug 2017 : 01:40:07
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
IHMO, swordmages are the 4e duskblades. Mind, swordmages draw from many traditions. The Torilian swordmages (or duskblades in 3e) may have originated from a more melee oriented bladesingers, but the Abeiran swordmages (such as the Anarchs of Shyr) are heirs of a totally different tradition, unrelated with bladesingers (yet, incredibly similar to it).
I see that. The blending of weapon and spell in a harmonious style is definitely reminiscent of what the 3e Duskblade did. Really my only issue is with the Swordsage's penchant for light armor and using their Aegis and Warding features to bolster their defenses over traditional armor and shields. 3E Duskblades used both armor and shields. The 4E Eldritch Knight continues the tradition of heavy armor and shields while teleporting ALL over the place (really, they teleport a LOT more than the Swordmages, at least once per round!) and sort of supports the imagery from Eytan's wonderfully written article of them for the Realms.
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
So, having eldritch knights (swordmages/duskblades) alongside bladesingers in 5e is a totally cool decision.
Agreed! I love that there's multiple ways to play a similar concept. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 15 Aug 2017 : 01:17:05
IHMO, swordmages are the 4e duskblades. Mind, swordmages draw from many traditions. The Torilian swordmages (or duskblades in 3e) may have originated from a more melee oriented bladesingers, but the Abeiran swordmages (such as the Anarchs of Shyr) are heirs of a totally different tradition, unrelated with bladesingers (yet, incredibly similar to it).
So, having eldritch knights (swordmages/duskblades) alongside bladesingers in 5e is a totally cool decision. |
| Diffan |
Posted - 15 Aug 2017 : 00:23:44
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Then you have the 4e Swordmages, whose techniques (at least, the Torilian ones) are originated from the bladesinger traditions as well.
I wish they did more flavor and lore for the 4E Eldritch Knights. It was just a Dragon article but its a lot of fun and really fit the concept that the Duskblade filled (conceptually speaking). |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 14 Aug 2017 : 21:46:53
Then you have the 4e Swordmages, whose techniques (at least, the Torilian ones) are originated from the bladesinger traditions as well. |
| Starshade |
Posted - 14 Aug 2017 : 21:15:05
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070228
I suddenly remembered this article. Duskblades is described as a martial tradition originating from bladesinger traditions, according to this article. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 14 Aug 2017 : 12:50:25
quote:
Originally posted by Starshade
Ayrik: you mean like in real martial arts, right? MA's learn from each other, adapting.
My experience though: You got right.
Though real MA's in my experience is not often that "honest", about age, lineage or where they have learnt it. The question is, are elves more honest than humans? 
Of course. Elves will tell you to your face how they are definitely more honest than humans. Also they will tell humans how superior elven magic is in all ways to human magic. Also, they will tell humans how much better they are at s3x. Oh, and of course their wines are also better, and their art. Naturally, it must all be true or they wouldn't say it.
Oh, excuse me, someone wants to talk to me about buying a bridge at a very good price. Wow, its a really nice, big bridge, and he says I could charge everyone that uses it a toll, even the local baron. Oh, won't that be funny, him paying taxes to me for once. The guys just has to sell it right away too because he needs quick cash to help his poor sick grandmother. |
| Diffan |
Posted - 14 Aug 2017 : 09:05:08
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
If bladesong is associated (through myth) with the Seldarine or (through legend) with distant events like the Crown Wars then it might also have "religious" significance to elves, a thing to be revered and preserved and respected (and studied and debated intensely over many elven lifetimes), a thing so important to remember as it is that it simply cannot be twisted and forgotten. If bladesong was ever instrumental in assuring elven survival or domination then it might also be a fiercely protected "secret" which would never be disseminated to outsiders.
Elves are generally quite content to allow foreign-elves, non-elves, and other ignorant folks remain woefully ignorant (and even dangerously misinformed/disinformed) about something that (in the elven view) is meant to concern only elves.
That's the way I've always viewed it. Aside from the novel Bladesinger, where there actually was a school for bladesingers, its usually passed down from one master to a pupil for intimate study and practice. This is also see in most of the mechanics of Bladesingers as you need to be elf or half-elf to partake (sans 4e "officially" but I made it so anyways).
Its also a great reason why we have approximations in terms of other "gish" styles. For example take 3rd Edition's Eldritch Knight prestige class and Duskblade. It's not a Bladesinger and yet blends the fighting of magic and steel. Same with 4e's Swordmage class and and 5e's version of Eldritch Knight too. I've always taken this a humanity's attempt to simulate or replicate Elven Bladesong. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 14 Aug 2017 : 04:49:35
Elven lifetimes are measured in multiple centuries (or millennia). So it would take elves a much longer time to "forget" the origins of an art or its masters and the art itself could propagate much further before it fell from memory to history to legend to myth. Humans hardly live a single century and can barely seem to remember anyone more than two generations removed, so to humans a 200-year-old martial art could be thought as "ancient" and have grown to mythical (even ridiculous) stature.
I think elves are no less prone than humans towards exaggeration, elaboration, and fabrication. They just have a "smaller" community and a stronger continuity, it's more difficult to be misinformed/disinformed, or to misinform/disinform others, when they (and all they know) are interconnected through fewer degrees of separation. For the legend (and "lost" style) of a bladesinger (and his "blade") to become as "mythical" to elves as a figure like King Arthur (along with Excalibur) is to humans would take many, many millennia. We've seen countless nations and peoples and even a few civilizations come and go since King Arthur's time, the world circa 2017AD is incomprehensibly distant from the world circa 500AD, but elves could easily bridge such a distance (vicariously) through conversations with their own parents and grandparents.
If bladesong is associated (through myth) with the Seldarine or (through legend) with distant events like the Crown Wars then it might also have "religious" significance to elves, a thing to be revered and preserved and respected (and studied and debated intensely over many elven lifetimes), a thing so important to remember as it is that it simply cannot be twisted and forgotten. If bladesong was ever instrumental in assuring elven survival or domination then it might also be a fiercely protected "secret" which would never be disseminated to outsiders.
Elves are generally quite content to allow foreign-elves, non-elves, and other ignorant folks remain woefully ignorant (and even dangerously misinformed/disinformed) about something that (in the elven view) is meant to concern only elves. |
| Starshade |
Posted - 13 Aug 2017 : 21:48:26
Ayrik: you mean like in real martial arts, right? MA's learn from each other, adapting.
My experience though: You got right.
Though real MA's in my experience is not often that "honest", about age, lineage or where they have learnt it. The question is, are elves more honest than humans? |
| Diffan |
Posted - 13 Aug 2017 : 13:30:00
Yeah I've always pictured Bladesingers wielding either a rapier or longsword (unfortunately using Longsword with Dex is still a conundrum even in 5e *sigh*) and wielding arcane magic. From the depictions in Realms literature, such as Josidiah Starym in Guenhwyvar and Taen from Bladesinger[/i) to Yldar Nathalan in ([i]the Greater Treasure), to the requirements and mechanics of Dungeons and Dragons (weapon focus for longsword/rapier in 3e to the Blade Magic feature in 4e) I think it's evident that swords of any variety are sort of pushed thematically. Still the idea of seeing a "Blade"singer wielding a flail or a Nunchaku would be pretty surprising and funny. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 13 Aug 2017 : 02:24:11
Longsword is the traditional weapon of heroic D&D fighters. Shortsword is less epic but comes in close second. And elves have affinity with both, they gain a racial (+1 to-hit) bonus with these weapons (and bows), I think the PHBR8 explaination was that elves spend decades of their "childhood" practicing and refining their skills with these iconic weapons.
But I recall PHBR8 also stated that many or most bladesingers choose to focus on another weapon. Something unusual, a sort of "signature" weapon to compliment their "unique" expression of style in combat. Javelins, axes, whips, whatever - the more distinctively nontraditional ("un-elflike") the better.
But I suppose the word "bladesinger" suggests use of blades or bladed weapons. Can't really have elven "sai-singers" or "chainsingers" or "whipsingers" championing noble elven causes, lol. |
| Diffan |
Posted - 12 Aug 2017 : 06:35:03
So from my knowledge of 3e's bladesingers (Races of Faerūn, Complete Warrior, and Tom Costa/Erik Scott de Bie Duskblade variant), 4e's bladesingers (Neverwinter Campaign Setting), and now 5e's bladesingers (Sword Coast Adventure Guide) everything seems to be the same barring slignt differences based on mechanics. Still need 1 hand free, still uses 1-handed swords (Avariel notwithstanding), still need to be an Elf or half-elf though 4e and 5e are more lenient on this requirement.
Nothing has tarnished the or wiped previous lore's info. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 12 Aug 2017 : 01:30:46
I think we've all overlook something basic ...
Human warriors spend a lot of time practicing, refining their skills, learning from each other, sometimes coming up with something new. Human militaries do the same thing on larger scales.
They also sometimes observe what the competition is doing. Or get their butts kicked in battle when the encounter superior fighting methods. Those who survive - or those who study the fallen or the battle in detail - learn from the experience.
I'm certain every stratagem, every tactic, every maneuver, every mistake, every cheap and dirty trick our warriors know was learned through this process. Every martial art (along with the countless exotic weapons and tactics they've mastered) probably evolved through the same process. Even the battlefields and paradigms of warfare have evolved, our warriors carefully select even the kind of war they will fight.
Why shouldn't one tribe or nation or race of elves develop their own bladesong after observing other elves doing the same? It seems almost inevitable. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 12 Aug 2017 : 01:12:00
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
In the old thread mentioned by TBelholder there is this suggestion by Ayrik of a spear style by the avariel. He also says which weapons would make sense for them, and which ones would be unlikely.
lol, I'd forgotten about that post. And so did google. |
| Starshade |
Posted - 11 Aug 2017 : 19:49:36
Dazzlerdal: could be.
I don't think there is enough info on the styles to rule out either possibility.
Most cultures, do transmit material, and social culture by contact, not just by evolution of older practices. Take the UK and jig; it's transmitted, and evolved into different styles. Due to history, we know the "Irish jig" is originally, a British dance. We just don't think of it that way.
If bladesong was defined, and we'd have the songs themselves, perhaps we would know the origin. Could quickly be some odd result, as ancestral to all elves (arrived with the elves), or invented y one subrace, and transmitted to all of them, including Avariels. All of the options could be combined in various ways. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 11 Aug 2017 : 17:09:56
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Convergent evolution of ideas is possible in one or maybe two isolated instances (didnt the telephone or electricity get invented two separate times).
But in this instance if all elves have their own unrelated racial tradition then that is convergebt evolution of ideas to the extreme (avarial, gold, moon, wild, dark, plus more).
So the test is do the most isolated of elves have bladesong. Avariels yes. Lythari ?. Star elves?.
If its yes to all or maybe 2 out of 3 then that seems a strong indicator of a common pre torilian origin for bladesong.
Meh, I don't see that it's such a stretch for highly magical types who use swords to think combining the two might be a good idea.
We've always been told, and seen in the lore, that elves have a connection to magic shared by no other race, aside from dragons. Magic is part of who elves are, and we've already seen that they've thought up ways of using it that no one else has or can do.
So to me, extending their magic use to swordplay is practically an obvious, foregone conclusion.
Granted, this doesn't rule out a common origin -- but it's too obvious a development. We can't rule out divergent evolution without more information; it's too likely a possibility. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 11 Aug 2017 : 16:42:53
Convergent evolution of ideas is possible in one or maybe two isolated instances (didnt the telephone or electricity get invented two separate times).
But in this instance if all elves have their own unrelated racial tradition then that is convergebt evolution of ideas to the extreme (avarial, gold, moon, wild, dark, plus more).
So the test is do the most isolated of elves have bladesong. Avariels yes. Lythari ?. Star elves?.
If its yes to all or maybe 2 out of 3 then that seems a strong indicator of a common pre torilian origin for bladesong. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 11 Aug 2017 : 15:58:23
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Thinking more, if bladesong is present in all elven cultures (drow have a lost bardic tradition that may count), including far off and isolated groups like the avariel, then one can only conclude that its origins lie before the elves split (which means it is pre arrival on Toril.
It may not be the highly developed bladesong we recognise but a more primitive ritual dance that all elves practiced which then developed into bladesong in all elven communities.
It's a reasonable conclusion... But elves have long been rather magically inclined, so trying to combine magic and swordplay isn't that much of a stretch. Convergent evolution is a possibility, as well. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 11 Aug 2017 : 15:08:21
Thinking more, if bladesong is present in all elven cultures (drow have a lost bardic tradition that may count), including far off and isolated groups like the avariel, then one can only conclude that its origins lie before the elves split (which means it is pre arrival on Toril.
It may not be the highly developed bladesong we recognise but a more primitive ritual dance that all elves practiced which then developed into bladesong in all elven communities. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 11 Aug 2017 : 12:59:30
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
As for avariel having bladesong variants, I can see it. And I know the novels called Taegan a bladesinger, but maybe he fought a similar style (the avariel style)
Taegan comes from a tribe that had to hide and wasn't numerous, generally living much like wood elves, except less content with this (at least some) because hey, they can fly.
Which is why they retained tradition of a fencing, dancing solo ground fighting style bladesong is.
For the "high" avariel it could be an exotic art, because they can use their wings more or less freely.
quote:
Anyway: my avariel style is an airborne style,
I see 4 tactical situations for the flyers even on the basic level:
vs. flyers, slower (or equal, but less manoeuvrable) - using this advantage to buzz in and out;
vs. flyers, equal or faster - got to meet them more or less head on;
vs. ground, flat (allows fast fly-by) - exciting, sometimes necessary, but useless on terrains that aren't flat;
vs. ground, with cover - careful hit & run, maybe just projectiles.
So there are niches for multiple solutions, and that's before getting into specific types of opponents.
quote:
and besides, the bladesong style IS practiced by non-bladesingers in its fighting techniques only
Indeed it is.
quote:
Thanks anyway, guys, for all of your answers. And please tell me more about Taegan's spellcasting! 
From the first fight - Taegan pre-cast Protection from Normal Missiles Arrows, then had to enchant the rapier while already using it.
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
So im picturing the elves before the crown wars as being like humans and broken up into different countries and regions, each with their own culture, religion, language variants, etc.
The crown wars did for the elves what the netherese and jhaamdath diaspora has started for the humans - a period of unification which will eventually result in a single language and single pantheon.
So illefarn would have had its own blade song style, so would myeritar, illythiir, etc, etc.
Agreed, but it was of a different nature than exchange and cross-fertilisation of different human expansions.
The Crown Wars must have produced some military adaptations, but otherwise ended the elven era of growth, including sideways.
The whole huddling together ("As I would think, so shall ye") of "The People" seems to become a thing only after the elvenkind was broken almost beyond repair. Which makes sense.
Moreover, it's the most obvious factor that inhibited their further development in any direction - other than minor adaptations of what already was there. Or desperate flailing (such as Fey'ri breeding program or Myth Drannor) when someone not lulled into self-adoring busy inactivity had power.
Thus the major new styles (beyond inevitable drift of the local schools) had to appear in the Crown Wars at the latest, maybe with specific exception of responses to the new threats (endless waves of goblinoids). |
| Barastir |
Posted - 11 Aug 2017 : 12:21:32
In the old thread mentioned by TBelholder there is this suggestion by Ayrik of a spear style by the avariel. He also says which weapons would make sense for them, and which ones would be unlikely. |
| sfdragon |
Posted - 11 Aug 2017 : 08:16:45
jhaamdath sucks. nuff said. moving on from that.
avariel did have a bladesong style if memory recalls they used a spear....
well it wasnt in the comepelte elves book... so where did I see it. could have sworn I sawi t somewhere.... |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 11 Aug 2017 : 08:05:16
At some point im intending to break the elves and other demi humans into regions rather than subraces.
We already have a few extra long lost elven gods that were around the heartlands regions 20000+ years ago but their worship died out (mythrien i think).
So im picturing the elves before the crown wars as being like humans and broken up into different countries and regions, each with their own culture, religion, language variants, etc.
The crown wars did for the elves what the netherese and jhaamdath diaspora has started for the humans - a period of unification which will eventually result in a single language and single pantheon.
So illefarn would have had its own blade song style, so would myeritar, illythiir, etc, etc. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 11 Aug 2017 : 04:52:53
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
So I would go with each elven subrace having a substantially different bladesong style
I say that of course there's going to be variations for each subrace, each settlement, each "school" or "academy" or "tradition" or "discipline", each line of masters and apprentices. Now there's a "new" 5E version, lol, that's fine with me.
-Everything is hazy based on like a decade of not caring, but I vaguely recall there being different "racial" versions of bladesingers. I am remembering from somewhere some guy, I think he was a bad guy (Fey'ri?), that was a bladesinger and used a heavy sword. I remember there was a Sun/Moon Elf that used two swords, and there was that Avariel I think used a rapier.
-And then, there was also the big difference in how bladesingers were presented in some sources, kind of an art passed down from individual teacher to individual student(s) and I think it was the novel Bladesinger, where they were being taught in like an academy setting or something. |
| Barastir |
Posted - 10 Aug 2017 : 15:31:28
Thanks, mr. Krashos. And my intention was not to start an argument, but try to understand if there would be a solution for this apparent contradiction, as the one Wooly brought about (thanks, Wooly). And it was interesting that TBeholder brought about that older thread. More interesting is that it was another thread I launched myself... And I didn't remember it... 
As for avariel having bladesong variants, I can see it. And I know the novels called Taegan a bladesinger, but maybe he fought a similar style (the avariel style) and told people it was (the more famous) bladesong (to get more students, as usually the elves are strict about teaching bladesong to others - although I read Taegan taught the traditional fencing, to humans), or even humans translated his style's name as "bladesong" and he bought it. Besides, my doubt about him casting a spell in the novels was lifted with an answer in the old thread about him casting in flight. But then again, has he cast a spell while fighting? (I'm still curious about that!)
Anyway: my avariel style is an airborne style, and besides, the bladesong style IS practiced by non-bladesingers in its fighting techniques only (not necessarily linked to spellcasting) since its first appearance in The Complete Book of Elves.
Tbeholder, fey'ri bladesingers are mentioned in the Cloak and Dagger 2e sourcebook. dazzlerdal, the bladesingers mentioned in the 5e source (the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide) are clearly elven. Ayrik, in an internet page there is a nice (albeit non-official) take on bladesingers in Krynn (look for The N'ath El-ojim).
Finally, I just read again the SCAG bladesinger entry. It actually says that "Even the newer styles are hundreds of years old". As later it says these syles' creators are still alive, and a three hundred years old style is mentioned, I misunderstood the entry and thought they were all new (for a few hundred years are nothing, to an elf). My bad!
Thanks anyway, guys, for all of your answers. And please tell me more about Taegan's spellcasting!
EDIT: format |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 10 Aug 2017 : 11:04:11
Relax guys. TBeholder enjoys making pointed criticisms behind the internet veil and Wooly likes a middle road of discourse which is difficult when passions are high. Get back to talking about the origins of bladesinging - it's nicer that way.
-- George Krashos |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 10 Aug 2017 : 09:38:52
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
Because maybe the writers invited from comics that got no continuity to speak of did it out of consistent wilful ignorance - and then it's something else entirely!
Prove your statement.
Which one?
Do you agree that War of the Spider Queen, Lady Penitent and other series of that era blatantly contradict the ways things used to work in the existing canon - even as big as "what happens if X dies when possessed by deity Y"? yes/no.
If yes, is it obviously a deliberate inconsistency?
I see only two ways the changes are not deliberate are:
A) Some sort of typos or mixed up notes just happened to crawl in while nobody looks and rearrange everything. But that's impossible to take seriously.
B) It was indeed done deliberately, but you insist on some word-twisting so that contrary to the obvious it somehow "does not count". But that's where my shout "bullcrap!" comes in.
I could have missed something, so you are welcome to point out whatever variant is not covered by (A) and (B) there is.
quote:
I have no idea what you're talking about, here. I've criticized WotC a lot, in these halls, particularly for the way they've ignored continuity since 3E came out. I've caught a lot of fire for that, too, particularly when I coined the term "Sellplague."
Which is why "now let's pretend someone didn't set things on the ears, they just... ended up on the ears, move along" is surprising when it comes from you.
quote:
That said, I'm not going to sit back and watch as malicious intent is given for a motivation, especially when laziness and incompetence are much more likely explanations.
Someone set things on the ears. Thoroughly and, yes, deliberately. It's an obvious observation.
quote:
Show me where anyone said that.
It's a summary of what's going on.
And by now it's not merely recognisable, but run-of-the-mill to the point of being boring.
quote:
There's a hell of a difference between saying "respect everything" and saying "hey, can we not have the same complaint offered every time it's even tangentially related to a topic?" If you can't see the difference between those two things, then you've a serious problem.
And there's also a hell of a difference between "the same complaint offered every time it's even tangentially related to a topic" and jumping into fray when someone mentions that the "canon" on the subject was broken with sledgehammer because all continuity was.
quote:
It continuously amazes me that I have been attacked for not wanting to have WotC's baby, and I've been attacked for daring to suggest that maybe WotC isn't the source of all that is evil and loathsome in the world. I'm Schrodinger's fan, apparently: I somehow love and utterly despise WotC and everything it's done, simultaneously.
Taking shots from all available sides is the natural and usually inevitable result of being belligerent about standing in the center, IMO.
Also, "maybe WotC isn't the source of all that is evil and loathsome in the world" is strawmanning.
Again, I want proof that someone at WotC was fully aware of all relevant lore and decided to simply ignore it. Until you can prove that to me, I'm assuming the more logical cause of sheer incompetence or laziness.
I don't see how not assuming that every decision WotC makes is a deliberate attempt to piss off their fans and thus put themselves out of business is strawmanning.
And I refuse to attack WotC without cause and suggest others should do the same. I'll criticize poor decisions and have done so frequently, but I refuse to act like WotC is out to deliberately piss everyone off. If you're going to call that "being belligerent about standing in the center" then it shows there is no point to continuing this discussion.
|
| Ayrik |
Posted - 10 Aug 2017 : 09:02:12
Perhaps the 5E statement about bladesong style being new can be understood as speaking about one (new) bladesong style among many (older, established, classic, traditional) bladesong styles?
There are bladesingers of every elven subrace in the Realms.
I recall seeing a couple elf NPCs in Spelljammer and Planescape material who knew bladesong, although I can't recall if they were native to the Realms or elsewhere.
2E bladesong rules (introduced in PHBR8: Complete Book of Elves) stated that elves *might* teach bladesong to a foreign elf and even to a half-elf (though never a non-elf and never to any drow!), although they are extremely reluctant to do so and the teaching/learning takes so many years that's it's really a wasted effort on non-elves anyhow. And each practitioner has a unique style and one can often determine which master a bladesinger apprenticed under through shared/evolved stylistic elements, etc.
2E magic and spellcasting rules (as expanded in PO: Spells & Magic) said much the same thing about styles in regards to spellcraft. Which makes some sense since bladesingers can cast spells as they move/dance/fight.
And all these rules were optional.
I like the idea of adapting Red Steel/Savage Coast (optional) rules for fencing/duelling/swordsmanship towards bladesinging, they could add a lot more personal "style" and uniqueness to each bladesinger than merely picking an unusual weapon. I would also adapt (optional) rules for martial arts (like those in 1E OA or 2E PO:C&T) for even greater variety and versatility. And I don't think this would really overpower bladesingers or break any character/game balance because while a bladesinger might be able to master a weapon, master a martial art, master special fighting maneuvers, and master melee spellcasting, he/she would still have limited points to distribute (and prereqs to meet) on all of these things.
So I would go with each elven subrace having a substantially different bladesong style
- all bladesingers would obviously share many "common" elements in movement and combat and casting, though their temperaments and philosophies would be expressed in different ways
- gold elves could have a boldly assertive style which emphasizes graceful movements, dominant momentum, arrogant verbal monologue, and effortlessly decisive attacks
- silver elves could have a fluid style which flows with and around opponents, emphasizing advantageous positioning, opportunistic openings, and unexpected precision strikes
- copper elves could have a savagely "berserk" style which seems wildly passionate and unpredictable, presses relentlessly, and maintains a constant flurry of rapid attacks interspersed with spontaneous heavy hits
- drow could have a deceptive and treacherous style with stealth-like spidery movements, surprising ferocity, feinting lulls and glancing blows, ruthless exploitation of lethal strike points, and venom-coated blades
Yes, the drow do have their own bladesinging style (or something similar) in some Underdark material. Although no elf would ever knowingly teach bladesong to a drow, and I doubt an elf could be fooled by a drow throughout many decades of bladesinging apprenticeship. (And if an elf could be so "easily" fooled then perhaps bladesong has also been taught to gnomish illusionists, dopplegangers, liches, and vampires?)
It's not hard to imagine elves in Krynn having their own bladesongs. Even elves in boring old Greyhawk. Elves are graceful and agile, lovers of music and beauty, imagine how confidently and how distinctly an individual elf could express himself through dance or martial arts or spellcraft after decades or centuries of practice.
Bladesong could be given from the Seldarine, taught to the "first" elves or some "chosen" elves every generation, practiced in dreams/visions/reverie or just "naturally" evolving over lifetimes of elven focus and practice. Perhaps (like any other performance-based skill) it can only be learned from a teacher up to a certain point, after which it must be learned only through self-directed challenge and exploration (and even, past another yet another certain point, learned only by teaching to other students).
I say that of course there's going to be variations for each subrace, each settlement, each "school" or "academy" or "tradition" or "discipline", each line of masters and apprentices. Now there's a "new" 5E version, lol, that's fine with me. |
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