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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Aug 2017 : 15:00:46
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Bladesong used to be an ancient art. In fact, in older editions it was not oficially stated the time this style first appeared in Faerūn, but the existence of fey'ri and avariel bladesingers suggested it existed for a long time.
Using non-oficial sources (Sypa's), I linked the disappearance of the avariel with the Dracorage Mythal affair, and so the bladesong would be older than that. The bladesong origin suggested there also put the origin of bladesong before the Sundering, but the date of this event was moved to the future (after the Mythal event) in the Grand History of the Realms.
I solved this problem in my game by having the avariel developing their own style, similar in swordsmanship subtlety but not linked to magic in any way - using the eeaar of the Red Steel setting as a reference -, and keeping the fey'ri as bladesingers, since their corruption occurred later. I haven't read The Year of the Rogue Dragons trilogy, but I haven't found references of Taegan using magic, so my solution would not contradict the novels.
Besides, Sypa's archives stated that the style was probably created by an unknown moon elf in a long past. In my game there is a legend that says that this first bladesinger would be Tethrin Veraldé, sometimes considered a demigod and son of Corellon Larethian (other legends link the style to Corellon himself, or to his solar servitors Lashrael and Felarathael).
But then again, in 5e there is a statement saying that the bladesong style is quite new... Why this change now, and how to deal with it?
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"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2017 : 15:45:32
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Easiest spin is to say there are two forms of bladesong, and the 5E one is new.
Perhaps with all of the fluctuations to the Weave caused by the Spellplague and the second Sundering, a new form of bladesong was developed that wasn't as dependent on the Weave, perhaps by drawing on magic directly, or by drawing on the fighter's energies, instead.
Or it could simply be that it's simply different styles, like different schools of martial arts. One school may emphasize flowing moves and a primarily defensive posture, while another school is more aggressive and depends more on sudden or precise strikes. Going this way, the magic integration remains basically the same, it's just that the movements have changed. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2382 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2017 : 16:16:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
Bladesong used to be an ancient art. In fact, in older editions it was not oficially stated the time this style first appeared in Faerūn, but the existence of fey'ri and avariel bladesingers suggested it existed for a long time.
I'm not sure whether fey'ri bladesingers were explicitly mentioned. Though since avariel were gone into hiding before Crown Wars and fey'ri appeared after, this would at most confirm.
quote:
Using non-oficial sources (Sypa's), I linked the disappearance of the avariel with the Dracorage Mythal affair, and so the bladesong would be older than that.
It's not stated, but implied in Year of the Rogue Dragons.
quote:
I solved this problem in my game by having the avariel developing their own style, similar in swordsmanship subtlety but not linked to magic in any way - using the eeaar of the Red Steel setting as a reference -
They probably have something like this. As discussed in an older thread, being a ground-based style, it's unlikely to be widespread among the avariel who don't have to hide.
quote:
I haven't found references of Taegan using magic, so my solution would not contradict the novels.
Taegan Nightwind was explicitly called a bladesinger.
quote:
But then again, in 5e there is a statement saying that the bladesong style is quite new... Why this change now, and how to deal with it?
Like with anything that runs across all the lore - dismiss and mark the whole source as unreliable? |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
Edited by - TBeholder on 10 Aug 2017 03:47:48 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2017 : 17:26:01
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
4e and 5e chose to wipe the slate clean for lore and often came up with its own stuff that is irreconcilable with past editions.
So either accept 5e as the correct version and favour its lore over previous editions or accept previous lore as correct and ignore the new stuff.
In the past people tried to reconcile lore gaffs because they were just that, mistakes and oversights. 5e and 4e was a deliberate hatchet job so it seems a waste of time and energy trying to reconcile deliberate inconsistencies.
Or come up with a quick easy fix, like I did, rather than take yet another opportunity to bitch about changes.
And I wouldn't say it was a deliberate inconsistency, since that means someone explicitly wanted to violate prior canon. Unless you've got verifiable information to back up claims like this, please stop making them.
Issuing the same complaints and accusations ad nauseam is a waste of time at best, and irritating to people who have to read them over and over again at worst. None of us are happy about such things, but complaining about them all the time is pointless. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2017 : 18:05:29
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Considering the completely different nature of Avariel (ariel) combat (Do Fey'ri have wings? If so, they may have developed their own style from the Avariel's) from anything ground-based, I would definitely say there are a number of styles, and YES, some may have been developed to be Weave-free or even magic-free. We're talking about a race that is tens of thousands of years old, who individually live a thousand years (that still true?), and have spread just about everywhere in the multiverse.
It would be ABSURD to think in all that time (and distance) that hundreds of 'variants' hadn't come about. Every time a group encountered a new culture, they would have adapted the style. If 5e mentions a 'new' Bladesinger discipline (the 5e version), then you can assume this is just one that grew out of the magical chaos that was the Spellplague (or rather, the need to use a style without depending on the magic). In fact, you'd need different styles within a single community, if some chose to use different weapon techniques (duel-wield, etc). Imagine someone's surprise when a reclusive group of savage wood elves used it using a pair of handaxes. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 09 Aug 2017 18:06:20 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2017 : 22:39:31
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| Curious enough, in 4e is stated that the art of the Bladesong is ancient... (in the Neverwinter Campaign Setting). |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2382 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2017 : 03:52:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And I wouldn't say it was a deliberate inconsistency, since that means someone explicitly wanted to violate prior canon. Unless you've got verifiable information to back up claims like this, please stop making them.
Because maybe the writers invited from comics that got no continuity to speak of did it out of consistent wilful ignorance - and then it's something else entirely!
Glad you finally jumped on thepiazza's shill train. Are you going to play crowd control for W...erfox the next time it's going to throw mud at Greenwood (right before 6e release, probably), too?
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
It wasnt a complaint. It was me pointing out that you cannot reconcile things that were never meant to be compatible.
Yeah, but the push is that now we have to "show respect" to whatever is sold today above what was published yesterday, even if the authors who churn it out don't care at all about Realms or about the authors who wrote before them. Otherwise thoughtcrime.
Don't you know?
Specifically, we're at the point where any mention of imperfections or inconsistencies in the newer materials will trigger someone to pop up and chide you for not being Inclusive enough, now even on Candlekeep.
And we all know how "ignore things that obviously don't fit for the sake of Inclusivity" invariably ends for things vastly greater than one modest fandom, no? |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
Edited by - TBeholder on 10 Aug 2017 05:48:14 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2017 : 04:23:21
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And I wouldn't say it was a deliberate inconsistency, since that means someone explicitly wanted to violate prior canon. Unless you've got verifiable information to back up claims like this, please stop making them.
Because maybe the writers invited from comics that got no continuity to speak of did it out of consistent wilful ignorance - and then it's something else entirely!
Prove your statement.
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
Glad you finally jumped on thepiazza's shill train. Are you going to play crowd control for W...erfox the next time it's going to throw mud at Greenwood (right before 6e release, probably), too?
I have no idea what you're talking about, here. I've criticized WotC a lot, in these halls, particularly for the way they've ignored continuity since 3E came out. I've caught a lot of fire for that, too, particularly when I coined the term "Sellplague."
Hell, I've accused them of lying, in two separate instances, where there were statements from WotC staffers/designers that were clearly proven to be wrong.
That said, I'm not going to sit back and watch as malicious intent is given for a motivation, especially when laziness and incompetence are much more likely explanations.
I'm also not going to ignore it when I see the exact same complaints offered for the 37,012th time.
Also, I am on record as saying I have issues with Ed Greenwood's writing. His world-building is incredible, and he creates some wonderful lore -- but his fiction does not work for me, at best, and I've actively disliked some of his Realms novels.
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
Yeah, but the push is that now we have to "show respect" to whatever is sold today above what was published yesterday, even if the authors who churn it out don't care at all about Realms or about the authors who wrote before them. Otherwise thoughtcrime.
Don't you know?
Show me where anyone said that.
There's a hell of a difference between saying "respect everything" and saying "hey, can we not have the same complaint offered every time it's even tangentially related to a topic?" If you can't see the difference between those two things, then you've a serious problem.
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
Specifically, we're at the point where any mention of imperfections or inconsistencies in the NuRealms materials will trigger someone to chide you even on Candlekeep.
Considering how many times just about all of us have brought up inconsistencies and flat out retcons, this is pure BS. Again, all I said was that a quick easy fix was preferable to the same damn complaints that had been uttered a thousand times before.
It continuously amazes me that I have been attacked for not wanting to have WotC's baby, and I've been attacked for daring to suggest that maybe WotC isn't the source of all that is evil and loathsome in the world. I'm Schrodinger's fan, apparently: I somehow love and utterly despise WotC and everything it's done, simultaneously. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 10 Aug 2017 04:35:15 |
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idilippy
Senior Scribe
USA
417 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2017 : 04:35:41
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I think in general picking the interpretation you prefer when lore contradicts itself is the right way to go. They're your Realms, use the version of events that you prefer. You can always have multiple explanations be used in universe too, keeping an unreliable narrator feel to the lore. Maybe the 5e version with people saying that Bladesong is new is just due to poor knowledge of history, or lore being lost in the spellplague and then massive time jump and then sundering, or it's a parallel evolution of the technique, or a rediscovery of the technique and way of using it with how magic currently works.
4e gave a clean break from what came before, and then 5e went with a clean break from 4e and in addition has very little lore published compared to the vast library of previous edition materials. I say go with the simple solution and use the interpretation that you like best or make your own the way you did with the Avariel stuff whenever you run into inconsistencies. |
Edited by - idilippy on 10 Aug 2017 04:40:07 |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2382 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2017 : 06:20:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
Because maybe the writers invited from comics that got no continuity to speak of did it out of consistent wilful ignorance - and then it's something else entirely!
Prove your statement.
Which one?
Do you agree that War of the Spider Queen, Lady Penitent and other series of that era blatantly contradict the ways things used to work in the existing canon - even as big as "what happens if X dies when possessed by deity Y"? yes/no.
If yes, is it obviously a deliberate inconsistency?
I see only two ways the changes are not deliberate are:
A) Some sort of typos or mixed up notes just happened to crawl in while nobody looks and rearrange everything. But that's impossible to take seriously.
B) It was indeed done deliberately, but you insist on some word-twisting so that contrary to the obvious it somehow "does not count". But that's where my shout "bullcrap!" comes in.
I could have missed something, so you are welcome to point out whatever variant is not covered by (A) and (B) there is.
quote:
I have no idea what you're talking about, here. I've criticized WotC a lot, in these halls, particularly for the way they've ignored continuity since 3E came out. I've caught a lot of fire for that, too, particularly when I coined the term "Sellplague."
Which is why "now let's pretend someone didn't set things on the ears, they just... ended up on the ears, move along" is surprising when it comes from you.
quote:
That said, I'm not going to sit back and watch as malicious intent is given for a motivation, especially when laziness and incompetence are much more likely explanations.
Someone set things on the ears. Thoroughly and, yes, deliberately. It's an obvious observation.
quote:
Show me where anyone said that.
It's a summary of what's going on.
And by now it's not merely recognisable, but run-of-the-mill to the point of being boring.
quote:
There's a hell of a difference between saying "respect everything" and saying "hey, can we not have the same complaint offered every time it's even tangentially related to a topic?" If you can't see the difference between those two things, then you've a serious problem.
And there's also a hell of a difference between "the same complaint offered every time it's even tangentially related to a topic" and jumping into fray when someone mentions that the "canon" on the subject was broken with sledgehammer because all continuity was.
quote:
It continuously amazes me that I have been attacked for not wanting to have WotC's baby, and I've been attacked for daring to suggest that maybe WotC isn't the source of all that is evil and loathsome in the world. I'm Schrodinger's fan, apparently: I somehow love and utterly despise WotC and everything it's done, simultaneously.
Taking shots from all available sides is the natural and usually inevitable result of being belligerent about standing in the center, IMO.
Also, "maybe WotC isn't the source of all that is evil and loathsome in the world" is strawmanning. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2017 : 09:02:12
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Perhaps the 5E statement about bladesong style being new can be understood as speaking about one (new) bladesong style among many (older, established, classic, traditional) bladesong styles?
There are bladesingers of every elven subrace in the Realms.
I recall seeing a couple elf NPCs in Spelljammer and Planescape material who knew bladesong, although I can't recall if they were native to the Realms or elsewhere.
2E bladesong rules (introduced in PHBR8: Complete Book of Elves) stated that elves *might* teach bladesong to a foreign elf and even to a half-elf (though never a non-elf and never to any drow!), although they are extremely reluctant to do so and the teaching/learning takes so many years that's it's really a wasted effort on non-elves anyhow. And each practitioner has a unique style and one can often determine which master a bladesinger apprenticed under through shared/evolved stylistic elements, etc.
2E magic and spellcasting rules (as expanded in PO: Spells & Magic) said much the same thing about styles in regards to spellcraft. Which makes some sense since bladesingers can cast spells as they move/dance/fight.
And all these rules were optional.
I like the idea of adapting Red Steel/Savage Coast (optional) rules for fencing/duelling/swordsmanship towards bladesinging, they could add a lot more personal "style" and uniqueness to each bladesinger than merely picking an unusual weapon. I would also adapt (optional) rules for martial arts (like those in 1E OA or 2E PO:C&T) for even greater variety and versatility. And I don't think this would really overpower bladesingers or break any character/game balance because while a bladesinger might be able to master a weapon, master a martial art, master special fighting maneuvers, and master melee spellcasting, he/she would still have limited points to distribute (and prereqs to meet) on all of these things.
So I would go with each elven subrace having a substantially different bladesong style
- all bladesingers would obviously share many "common" elements in movement and combat and casting, though their temperaments and philosophies would be expressed in different ways
- gold elves could have a boldly assertive style which emphasizes graceful movements, dominant momentum, arrogant verbal monologue, and effortlessly decisive attacks
- silver elves could have a fluid style which flows with and around opponents, emphasizing advantageous positioning, opportunistic openings, and unexpected precision strikes
- copper elves could have a savagely "berserk" style which seems wildly passionate and unpredictable, presses relentlessly, and maintains a constant flurry of rapid attacks interspersed with spontaneous heavy hits
- drow could have a deceptive and treacherous style with stealth-like spidery movements, surprising ferocity, feinting lulls and glancing blows, ruthless exploitation of lethal strike points, and venom-coated blades
Yes, the drow do have their own bladesinging style (or something similar) in some Underdark material. Although no elf would ever knowingly teach bladesong to a drow, and I doubt an elf could be fooled by a drow throughout many decades of bladesinging apprenticeship. (And if an elf could be so "easily" fooled then perhaps bladesong has also been taught to gnomish illusionists, dopplegangers, liches, and vampires?)
It's not hard to imagine elves in Krynn having their own bladesongs. Even elves in boring old Greyhawk. Elves are graceful and agile, lovers of music and beauty, imagine how confidently and how distinctly an individual elf could express himself through dance or martial arts or spellcraft after decades or centuries of practice.
Bladesong could be given from the Seldarine, taught to the "first" elves or some "chosen" elves every generation, practiced in dreams/visions/reverie or just "naturally" evolving over lifetimes of elven focus and practice. Perhaps (like any other performance-based skill) it can only be learned from a teacher up to a certain point, after which it must be learned only through self-directed challenge and exploration (and even, past another yet another certain point, learned only by teaching to other students).
I say that of course there's going to be variations for each subrace, each settlement, each "school" or "academy" or "tradition" or "discipline", each line of masters and apprentices. Now there's a "new" 5E version, lol, that's fine with me. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2017 : 09:38:52
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
Because maybe the writers invited from comics that got no continuity to speak of did it out of consistent wilful ignorance - and then it's something else entirely!
Prove your statement.
Which one?
Do you agree that War of the Spider Queen, Lady Penitent and other series of that era blatantly contradict the ways things used to work in the existing canon - even as big as "what happens if X dies when possessed by deity Y"? yes/no.
If yes, is it obviously a deliberate inconsistency?
I see only two ways the changes are not deliberate are:
A) Some sort of typos or mixed up notes just happened to crawl in while nobody looks and rearrange everything. But that's impossible to take seriously.
B) It was indeed done deliberately, but you insist on some word-twisting so that contrary to the obvious it somehow "does not count". But that's where my shout "bullcrap!" comes in.
I could have missed something, so you are welcome to point out whatever variant is not covered by (A) and (B) there is.
quote:
I have no idea what you're talking about, here. I've criticized WotC a lot, in these halls, particularly for the way they've ignored continuity since 3E came out. I've caught a lot of fire for that, too, particularly when I coined the term "Sellplague."
Which is why "now let's pretend someone didn't set things on the ears, they just... ended up on the ears, move along" is surprising when it comes from you.
quote:
That said, I'm not going to sit back and watch as malicious intent is given for a motivation, especially when laziness and incompetence are much more likely explanations.
Someone set things on the ears. Thoroughly and, yes, deliberately. It's an obvious observation.
quote:
Show me where anyone said that.
It's a summary of what's going on.
And by now it's not merely recognisable, but run-of-the-mill to the point of being boring.
quote:
There's a hell of a difference between saying "respect everything" and saying "hey, can we not have the same complaint offered every time it's even tangentially related to a topic?" If you can't see the difference between those two things, then you've a serious problem.
And there's also a hell of a difference between "the same complaint offered every time it's even tangentially related to a topic" and jumping into fray when someone mentions that the "canon" on the subject was broken with sledgehammer because all continuity was.
quote:
It continuously amazes me that I have been attacked for not wanting to have WotC's baby, and I've been attacked for daring to suggest that maybe WotC isn't the source of all that is evil and loathsome in the world. I'm Schrodinger's fan, apparently: I somehow love and utterly despise WotC and everything it's done, simultaneously.
Taking shots from all available sides is the natural and usually inevitable result of being belligerent about standing in the center, IMO.
Also, "maybe WotC isn't the source of all that is evil and loathsome in the world" is strawmanning.
Again, I want proof that someone at WotC was fully aware of all relevant lore and decided to simply ignore it. Until you can prove that to me, I'm assuming the more logical cause of sheer incompetence or laziness.
I don't see how not assuming that every decision WotC makes is a deliberate attempt to piss off their fans and thus put themselves out of business is strawmanning.
And I refuse to attack WotC without cause and suggest others should do the same. I'll criticize poor decisions and have done so frequently, but I refuse to act like WotC is out to deliberately piss everyone off. If you're going to call that "being belligerent about standing in the center" then it shows there is no point to continuing this discussion.
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6643 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2017 : 11:04:11
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Relax guys. TBeholder enjoys making pointed criticisms behind the internet veil and Wooly likes a middle road of discourse which is difficult when passions are high. Get back to talking about the origins of bladesinging - it's nicer that way.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2017 : 15:31:28
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Thanks, mr. Krashos. And my intention was not to start an argument, but try to understand if there would be a solution for this apparent contradiction, as the one Wooly brought about (thanks, Wooly). And it was interesting that TBeholder brought about that older thread. More interesting is that it was another thread I launched myself... And I didn't remember it... 
As for avariel having bladesong variants, I can see it. And I know the novels called Taegan a bladesinger, but maybe he fought a similar style (the avariel style) and told people it was (the more famous) bladesong (to get more students, as usually the elves are strict about teaching bladesong to others - although I read Taegan taught the traditional fencing, to humans), or even humans translated his style's name as "bladesong" and he bought it. Besides, my doubt about him casting a spell in the novels was lifted with an answer in the old thread about him casting in flight. But then again, has he cast a spell while fighting? (I'm still curious about that!)
Anyway: my avariel style is an airborne style, and besides, the bladesong style IS practiced by non-bladesingers in its fighting techniques only (not necessarily linked to spellcasting) since its first appearance in The Complete Book of Elves.
Tbeholder, fey'ri bladesingers are mentioned in the Cloak and Dagger 2e sourcebook. dazzlerdal, the bladesingers mentioned in the 5e source (the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide) are clearly elven. Ayrik, in an internet page there is a nice (albeit non-official) take on bladesingers in Krynn (look for The N'ath El-ojim).
Finally, I just read again the SCAG bladesinger entry. It actually says that "Even the newer styles are hundreds of years old". As later it says these syles' creators are still alive, and a three hundred years old style is mentioned, I misunderstood the entry and thought they were all new (for a few hundred years are nothing, to an elf). My bad!
Thanks anyway, guys, for all of your answers. And please tell me more about Taegan's spellcasting! 
EDIT: format |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 10 Aug 2017 16:30:30 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3736 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2017 : 04:52:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
So I would go with each elven subrace having a substantially different bladesong style
I say that of course there's going to be variations for each subrace, each settlement, each "school" or "academy" or "tradition" or "discipline", each line of masters and apprentices. Now there's a "new" 5E version, lol, that's fine with me.
-Everything is hazy based on like a decade of not caring, but I vaguely recall there being different "racial" versions of bladesingers. I am remembering from somewhere some guy, I think he was a bad guy (Fey'ri?), that was a bladesinger and used a heavy sword. I remember there was a Sun/Moon Elf that used two swords, and there was that Avariel I think used a rapier.
-And then, there was also the big difference in how bladesingers were presented in some sources, kind of an art passed down from individual teacher to individual student(s) and I think it was the novel Bladesinger, where they were being taught in like an academy setting or something. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2017 : 08:16:45
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jhaamdath sucks. nuff said. moving on from that.
avariel did have a bladesong style if memory recalls they used a spear....
well it wasnt in the comepelte elves book... so where did I see it. could have sworn I sawi t somewhere.... |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
Edited by - sfdragon on 11 Aug 2017 08:41:54 |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2017 : 12:21:32
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| In the old thread mentioned by TBelholder there is this suggestion by Ayrik of a spear style by the avariel. He also says which weapons would make sense for them, and which ones would be unlikely. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2382 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2017 : 12:59:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
As for avariel having bladesong variants, I can see it. And I know the novels called Taegan a bladesinger, but maybe he fought a similar style (the avariel style)
Taegan comes from a tribe that had to hide and wasn't numerous, generally living much like wood elves, except less content with this (at least some) because hey, they can fly.
Which is why they retained tradition of a fencing, dancing solo ground fighting style bladesong is.
For the "high" avariel it could be an exotic art, because they can use their wings more or less freely.
quote:
Anyway: my avariel style is an airborne style,
I see 4 tactical situations for the flyers even on the basic level:
vs. flyers, slower (or equal, but less manoeuvrable) - using this advantage to buzz in and out;
vs. flyers, equal or faster - got to meet them more or less head on;
vs. ground, flat (allows fast fly-by) - exciting, sometimes necessary, but useless on terrains that aren't flat;
vs. ground, with cover - careful hit & run, maybe just projectiles.
So there are niches for multiple solutions, and that's before getting into specific types of opponents.
quote:
and besides, the bladesong style IS practiced by non-bladesingers in its fighting techniques only
Indeed it is.
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Thanks anyway, guys, for all of your answers. And please tell me more about Taegan's spellcasting!
From the first fight - Taegan pre-cast Protection from Normal Missiles Arrows, then had to enchant the rapier while already using it.
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
So im picturing the elves before the crown wars as being like humans and broken up into different countries and regions, each with their own culture, religion, language variants, etc.
The crown wars did for the elves what the netherese and jhaamdath diaspora has started for the humans - a period of unification which will eventually result in a single language and single pantheon.
So illefarn would have had its own blade song style, so would myeritar, illythiir, etc, etc.
Agreed, but it was of a different nature than exchange and cross-fertilisation of different human expansions.
The Crown Wars must have produced some military adaptations, but otherwise ended the elven era of growth, including sideways.
The whole huddling together ("As I would think, so shall ye") of "The People" seems to become a thing only after the elvenkind was broken almost beyond repair. Which makes sense.
Moreover, it's the most obvious factor that inhibited their further development in any direction - other than minor adaptations of what already was there. Or desperate flailing (such as Fey'ri breeding program or Myth Drannor) when someone not lulled into self-adoring busy inactivity had power.
Thus the major new styles (beyond inevitable drift of the local schools) had to appear in the Crown Wars at the latest, maybe with specific exception of responses to the new threats (endless waves of goblinoids). |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2017 : 15:58:23
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Thinking more, if bladesong is present in all elven cultures (drow have a lost bardic tradition that may count), including far off and isolated groups like the avariel, then one can only conclude that its origins lie before the elves split (which means it is pre arrival on Toril.
It may not be the highly developed bladesong we recognise but a more primitive ritual dance that all elves practiced which then developed into bladesong in all elven communities.
It's a reasonable conclusion... But elves have long been rather magically inclined, so trying to combine magic and swordplay isn't that much of a stretch. Convergent evolution is a possibility, as well. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2017 : 17:09:56
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Convergent evolution of ideas is possible in one or maybe two isolated instances (didnt the telephone or electricity get invented two separate times).
But in this instance if all elves have their own unrelated racial tradition then that is convergebt evolution of ideas to the extreme (avarial, gold, moon, wild, dark, plus more).
So the test is do the most isolated of elves have bladesong. Avariels yes. Lythari ?. Star elves?.
If its yes to all or maybe 2 out of 3 then that seems a strong indicator of a common pre torilian origin for bladesong.
Meh, I don't see that it's such a stretch for highly magical types who use swords to think combining the two might be a good idea.
We've always been told, and seen in the lore, that elves have a connection to magic shared by no other race, aside from dragons. Magic is part of who elves are, and we've already seen that they've thought up ways of using it that no one else has or can do.
So to me, extending their magic use to swordplay is practically an obvious, foregone conclusion.
Granted, this doesn't rule out a common origin -- but it's too obvious a development. We can't rule out divergent evolution without more information; it's too likely a possibility. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 11 Aug 2017 17:18:08 |
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Starshade
Learned Scribe
Norway
279 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2017 : 19:49:36
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Dazzlerdal: could be.
I don't think there is enough info on the styles to rule out either possibility.
Most cultures, do transmit material, and social culture by contact, not just by evolution of older practices. Take the UK and jig; it's transmitted, and evolved into different styles. Due to history, we know the "Irish jig" is originally, a British dance. We just don't think of it that way.
If bladesong was defined, and we'd have the songs themselves, perhaps we would know the origin. Could quickly be some odd result, as ancestral to all elves (arrived with the elves), or invented y one subrace, and transmitted to all of them, including Avariels. All of the options could be combined in various ways. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2017 : 01:12:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
In the old thread mentioned by TBelholder there is this suggestion by Ayrik of a spear style by the avariel. He also says which weapons would make sense for them, and which ones would be unlikely.
lol, I'd forgotten about that post. And so did google. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2017 : 01:30:46
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I think we've all overlook something basic ...
Human warriors spend a lot of time practicing, refining their skills, learning from each other, sometimes coming up with something new. Human militaries do the same thing on larger scales.
They also sometimes observe what the competition is doing. Or get their butts kicked in battle when the encounter superior fighting methods. Those who survive - or those who study the fallen or the battle in detail - learn from the experience.
I'm certain every stratagem, every tactic, every maneuver, every mistake, every cheap and dirty trick our warriors know was learned through this process. Every martial art (along with the countless exotic weapons and tactics they've mastered) probably evolved through the same process. Even the battlefields and paradigms of warfare have evolved, our warriors carefully select even the kind of war they will fight.
Why shouldn't one tribe or nation or race of elves develop their own bladesong after observing other elves doing the same? It seems almost inevitable. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4427 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2017 : 06:35:03
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So from my knowledge of 3e's bladesingers (Races of Faerūn, Complete Warrior, and Tom Costa/Erik Scott de Bie Duskblade variant), 4e's bladesingers (Neverwinter Campaign Setting), and now 5e's bladesingers (Sword Coast Adventure Guide) everything seems to be the same barring slignt differences based on mechanics. Still need 1 hand free, still uses 1-handed swords (Avariel notwithstanding), still need to be an Elf or half-elf though 4e and 5e are more lenient on this requirement.
Nothing has tarnished the or wiped previous lore's info. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2017 : 02:24:11
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Longsword is the traditional weapon of heroic D&D fighters. Shortsword is less epic but comes in close second. And elves have affinity with both, they gain a racial (+1 to-hit) bonus with these weapons (and bows), I think the PHBR8 explaination was that elves spend decades of their "childhood" practicing and refining their skills with these iconic weapons.
But I recall PHBR8 also stated that many or most bladesingers choose to focus on another weapon. Something unusual, a sort of "signature" weapon to compliment their "unique" expression of style in combat. Javelins, axes, whips, whatever - the more distinctively nontraditional ("un-elflike") the better.
But I suppose the word "bladesinger" suggests use of blades or bladed weapons. Can't really have elven "sai-singers" or "chainsingers" or "whipsingers" championing noble elven causes, lol. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4427 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2017 : 13:30:00
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| Yeah I've always pictured Bladesingers wielding either a rapier or longsword (unfortunately using Longsword with Dex is still a conundrum even in 5e *sigh*) and wielding arcane magic. From the depictions in Realms literature, such as Josidiah Starym in Guenhwyvar and Taen from Bladesinger[/i) to Yldar Nathalan in ([i]the Greater Treasure), to the requirements and mechanics of Dungeons and Dragons (weapon focus for longsword/rapier in 3e to the Blade Magic feature in 4e) I think it's evident that swords of any variety are sort of pushed thematically. Still the idea of seeing a "Blade"singer wielding a flail or a Nunchaku would be pretty surprising and funny. |
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Origins of bladesong
