| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 19 Feb 2017 : 05:33:48
I just saw this and thought it was very interesting. Especially if compared against the concept that maybe Shar wants to be Ao's equal. I know there's nothing to it, but...
The most important gods of the Polynesian pantheon were those associated with creation myths and legends. Best known were Rangi (Father Sky) and Papa (Mother Earth), the two supreme creator gods of the Maori people of New Zealand. According to Maori legend, Rangi and Papa served as the source from which all things came.
The counterparts of Rangi and Papa in Hawaiian mythology were Ao and Po. Ao represented the male force in the universe and was associated with the sky, the day, and light. Po, the feminine force, was linked with the earth, darkness, and night. According to Hawaiian myth, a creator god named Ku separated Ao from Po. Ku then worked with Lono, god of the heavens, and Kane, the chief god of generation and growth, to create the earth and all living things. After Kane made the first man and woman, he became angry at their bad behavior and decided that humans would be subject to death. He then left the earth and went to live in heaven.
Read more: http://www.mythencyclopedia.com/Pa-Pr/Polynesian-Mythology.html#ixzz4Z6eJCNux |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 05 Mar 2017 : 18:24:38
weird, I keep running across different Ao's. I was just reading on the concept of "the world turtle"... i.e. the concept that many have of a turtle that the world rests upon
Ao (Chinese: #40140;, Áo) is a large marine turtle in Chinese mythology. He was thought to have lived in the South China Sea during the time of the formation of the world. When the goddess Nüwa, creator of mankind, was repairing the sky after a disaster, she chopped off Ao’s four legs and used them as supports.
Another myth claims that Ao still lives and resides in the Bohai Sea, where he carries the three islands of the Eight Immortals (Penglai, Fangzhang, and Yingzhou) upon his back.[1]
He is thought to have been an influence on the later half-dragon, half-turtle figure of Bixi in imperial Chinese sculpture. Bixi was considered a son of the Dragon King who was able to carry enormous weights upon his back; figures of the dragon-turtle bearing memorial stelae are common monuments throughout East Asia.
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| sleyvas |
Posted - 27 Feb 2017 : 01:35:47
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Well, one thing I'm stressing in the other thread I just started is that what we're hearing about Ao is not from Ao and its not from the gods. Its from sages hearing stories and "putting together the big picture". I personally think those sages got it all wrong, for the reasons like you state.
I'm starting to think Ao didn't create Abeir. I'm starting to think something happened when Asgorath/Io "touched their breath" to that "ice moon"/"crystal sun"/"giant waiting egg in the sky". I'm starting to wonder.... did that BIRTH alternate realities.... did that BIRTH Mystryl... did that FRAGMENT THE WORLD SERPENT (and is this world serpent related in any way to Asgorath... the "sages" think Asgorath was a primordial, but was she/he?)... Hell, did this not only birth Abeir, but possibly even other crystal spheres (like Krynn and Greyhawk)... though I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that that last bit won't be favored by others.
On the one hand, it would make sense that it was all 'one event' - that there was one major 'kablooey' that shattered the First World, and gave birth to all the others... and I'm totally down with that (and its not really my theory - it was proposed in the very first issue of Dragon magazine). But because of Abeir's very different nature - and the fact that it IS in the same Crystal Sphere - makes me think its creation has to be something different than what created all those other settings/worlds (because why didn't it get its own crystal sphere)?
So Occam's Razor doesn't work so neatly here, because its apples and oranges, even if the orange looks a lot like the apple. Its a conundrum, because it appears they should have all been created at the same time (immediately following the Godwar).
So once again, we need to "use the lore to fix the lore". Toril is different. I've always known that, because everything points to it (its connected to just about everything else in the multiverse, directly). I think the Moonwells ('Wells of Power') are a big part of that (some sort of primal conduits link Toril to other planes and their energy sources). If you think of the multiverse as a computer network, Toril's not just 'a hub', its THE Hub... maybe even the router. everything goes through IT. So if Toril - and by extension Realmspace - is so different then the rest of the Spheres, it makes sense that Abeir is as well.
If Toril's some sort of router (bus might be a better analogy), then perhaps Abeir is some sort of Recycling Bin? Not that it was setup to be that way, it just wound up as one (a pasted-together world using cast-off bits of other worlds). I think Abeir is our Tarterus - its where our 'Titans' were confined. The shell on the outside where mortals live - thats just the crust that Ao built on top of the prison. It was probably not originally meant to be that way; Ao just used what was available to him.
So the Great Wheel is built around one prison -Sigil - which confines THE 'uber Ebil', and then you have Abeir, where it's minions/henchmen/allies were sent. Thats the vibe I am getting from all this. {Conjecture here}
The only problem I am have reconciling all of this is that why isn't Toril (and Abeir) part of the Great Wheel? Why is it a crystal sphere, just like any other Crystal Sphere? was that a mistake on 2e's part? To make it just one more world in a vast sea of similar worlds? Even Realmspace itself is very different and important to the greater Spelljamming universe - it has stuff no other crystal sphere does (like that giant skull, or the rock of Bral). Was 'Realmspace' the battleground for the Godwar? Is that why its different? After the First World was shattered, Toril was just too loaded with 'god energy' to be easily contained, unlike most of the other pieces/worlds?
It makes sense that if all these worlds/settings were part of a greater whole at one point (Midgard - the 'First World', which was actually just an unsundered Prime Material), then something must have happened on the piece that became Toril, OR it was already important for some reason on the First World ('the throne of God', the 'main laboratory', etc). Maybe Toril was D&D's version of 'Mount Olympus' on that First World. Who knows?
Just to play devil's advocate here (I too am not all that thrilled with the idea that I espoused), but perhaps the reason that Abeir and Greyhawk and Dragonlance are different is simply the extent to which their "world" got completed in the balance of things. In a mass explosion of sorts, you can have a lot of different "effects" happen. Perhaps some worlds were created that are just not "complete", and thus those worlds were just made "on a different wavelength" or out of phase. Along these lines, we might even find out that there's a few other worlds besides just Abeir and Toril..... In fact, the shadowfell and feywild have portions which mirror Toril (granted this is supposedly the same for all crystal spheres).... and even Raveloft has some form of realm copying going on.
Again, not really big on the idea, but its worth perusing. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 27 Feb 2017 : 00:12:42
Krynnspace and Greyspace also had things the others didn't... And the Rock of Bral was originally not set in Realmspace; its location was left undetermined. Steven Schend is the one who brought it into the Realms.
As I recall, Greyspace had two very unique astrological features, very different from anything in the other spheres. There is the Habitat, something inhabited by unknown creatures and unreachable through magical or physical means. You can see it, but space is warped around it, so once you get too close, you're suddenly traveling away from it. And there is also a formation of stars called The Sisters. If a ship passes between them, it will be flung elsewhere and elsewhen -- literally transported to a different point in time and space, possibly even a different sphere.
Krynnspace has mysterious black clouds that are harmless unless you try to touch them, and that wipe your memories of passage thru them. It has a group of asteroids connected by magical bridges that can't be damaged. And it has some utter ridiculousness, too, like planets being used as scrying devices by the gods and a 6-inch tall superstrong flying gnome called Little Biggnome. (There are reasons I consider that supplement to be the worst of the three setting-specific Spelljammer resources.) |
| Markustay |
Posted - 26 Feb 2017 : 23:47:07
Re-reading what I wrote above this morning, I can't help imagining Toril actually being what I think it is - the center of the Universe. What if the world were truly flat - what if Toril was the Outlands? 
I'm not saying that it is - no matter how many straws I tried to grasp there is no way of making that work, aside from a major retcon. But still, its fun to think about. If we looked at a world map, The 'Endless Spire' would fall out somewhere in the Fallen Kingdom of Guge - an area depicted on the back cover of the Fonstad Atlas. I suppose if we were to use an actual map of Toril, rather than just the main continent (that also includes K-T and Zakhara), we'd have to picture the map being surrounded by a ring of land with the gate towns. Of course, if we just ignore the wheel and imagine something new, then the Gate Towns could be anywhere. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 26 Feb 2017 : 18:20:26
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Well, one thing I'm stressing in the other thread I just started is that what we're hearing about Ao is not from Ao and its not from the gods. Its from sages hearing stories and "putting together the big picture". I personally think those sages got it all wrong, for the reasons like you state.
I'm starting to think Ao didn't create Abeir. I'm starting to think something happened when Asgorath/Io "touched their breath" to that "ice moon"/"crystal sun"/"giant waiting egg in the sky". I'm starting to wonder.... did that BIRTH alternate realities.... did that BIRTH Mystryl... did that FRAGMENT THE WORLD SERPENT (and is this world serpent related in any way to Asgorath... the "sages" think Asgorath was a primordial, but was she/he?)... Hell, did this not only birth Abeir, but possibly even other crystal spheres (like Krynn and Greyhawk)... though I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that that last bit won't be favored by others.
On the one hand, it would make sense that it was all 'one event' - that there was one major 'kablooey' that shattered the First World, and gave birth to all the others... and I'm totally down with that (and its not really my theory - it was proposed in the very first issue of Dragon magazine). But because of Abeir's very different nature - and the fact that it IS in the same Crystal Sphere - makes me think its creation has to be something different than what created all those other settings/worlds (because why didn't it get its own crystal sphere)?
So Occam's Razor doesn't work so neatly here, because its apples and oranges, even if the orange looks a lot like the apple. Its a conundrum, because it appears they should have all been created at the same time (immediately following the Godwar).
So once again, we need to "use the lore to fix the lore". Toril is different. I've always known that, because everything points to it (its connected to just about everything else in the multiverse, directly). I think the Moonwells ('Wells of Power') are a big part of that (some sort of primal conduits link Toril to other planes and their energy sources). If you think of the multiverse as a computer network, Toril's not just 'a hub', its THE Hub... maybe even the router. everything goes through IT. So if Toril - and by extension Realmspace - is so different then the rest of the Spheres, it makes sense that Abeir is as well.
If Toril's some sort of router (bus might be a better analogy), then perhaps Abeir is some sort of Recycling Bin? Not that it was setup to be that way, it just wound up as one (a pasted-together world using cast-off bits of other worlds). I think Abeir is our Tarterus - its where our 'Titans' were confined. The shell on the outside where mortals live - thats just the crust that Ao built on top of the prison. It was probably not originally meant to be that way; Ao just used what was available to him.
So the Great Wheel is built around one prison -Sigil - which confines THE 'uber Ebil', and then you have Abeir, where it's minions/henchmen/allies were sent. Thats the vibe I am getting from all this. {Conjecture here}
The only problem I am have reconciling all of this is that why isn't Toril (and Abeir) part of the Great Wheel? Why is it a crystal sphere, just like any other Crystal Sphere? was that a mistake on 2e's part? To make it just one more world in a vast sea of similar worlds? Even Realmspace itself is very different and important to the greater Spelljamming universe - it has stuff no other crystal sphere does (like that giant skull, or the rock of Bral). Was 'Realmspace' the battleground for the Godwar? Is that why its different? After the First World was shattered, Toril was just too loaded with 'god energy' to be easily contained, unlike most of the other pieces/worlds?
It makes sense that if all these worlds/settings were part of a greater whole at one point (Midgard - the 'First World', which was actually just an unsundered Prime Material), then something must have happened on the piece that became Toril, OR it was already important for some reason on the First World ('the throne of God', the 'main laboratory', etc). Maybe Toril was D&D's version of 'Mount Olympus' on that First World. Who knows? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 26 Feb 2017 : 16:07:53
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
My biggest problem with the whole Ao thing is that he seem to be THE God in a lot of ways, even making rules for multispheric (non-FR specific) powers. Also, what I suspected all along about FR - thats its some sort of 'fulcrum' of the multiverse - has become fact in 5e, which makes Ao WAY more powerful be default. And at the same time, if he has powers/influence beyond Realmspace, then who is his 'Boss'?
He only makes rules for the local aspects of multispheric powers, though... So he can tell Corellon where to stick it, in Realmspace, but in Greyspace, Corellon is not bound by those rules.
It's kinda like traveling to a foreign country. Yeah, in your home country of Aylandia, you may be able to do pretty much what ever you want. Beelandia will let you do most of the same things, but not all, and in Ceelandia, you'll be lucky if you're only thrown in jail for some of the stuff you can do in Beelandia. Once you get the heck out of Ceelandia, of course, you are no longer bound by their laws. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 26 Feb 2017 : 15:32:49
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
My biggest problem with the whole Ao thing is that he seem to be THE God in a lot of ways, even making rules for multispheric (non-FR specific) powers. Also, what I suspected all along about FR - thats its some sort of 'fulcrum' of the multiverse - has become fact in 5e, which makes Ao WAY more powerful be default. And at the same time, if he has powers/influence beyond Realmspace, then who is his 'Boss'?
Back in early 2e they said there were other 'overpowers' on Toril itself (which they quickly did away with), which made him only slightly higher-up the food chain than deities. By the end of 2e, he was THE God... but only of Realmspace. Now he seems to have a LOT of power - like creating Abeir and even affecting other settings - that I don't think he should have. Maybe the Ao in the novels and the beginning of 2e 'got fired', or rather, got re-absorbed into something greater, that is now taking a more direct hand in things itself? (meaning, Ao was also an 'avatar' of an uber-overpower, which works for me only because I think EVERYTHING is part of something higher up - the universe is just one big Ponzi Scheme). I mean, he went from feeling a wee bit threatened by Cyric, to changing the memories of entire crystal Spheres, to creating worlds whole-cloth, AND rules over a goddess who has a minion (Azuth) that got absorbed by Asmodeus, and that gave Asmodeus enough power to change the entirety of the Cosmology and rearrange planes. So if one of Ao's underlings has a minion that had that much power, than what the hell is Ao? 
And better yet, just what the heck is/was Mystra/Mystryl? That stuff goes WAY beyond deity-level power. Perhaps even beyond Overgod power.
Well, one thing I'm stressing in the other thread I just started is that what we're hearing about Ao is not from Ao and its not from the gods. Its from sages hearing stories and "putting together the big picture". I personally think those sages got it all wrong, for the reasons like you state.
I'm starting to think Ao didn't create Abeir. I'm starting to think something happened when Asgorath/Io "touched their breath" to that "ice moon"/"crystal sun"/"giant waiting egg in the sky". I'm starting to wonder.... did that BIRTH alternate realities.... did that BIRTH Mystryl... did that FRAGMENT THE WORLD SERPENT (and is this world serpent related in any way to Asgorath... the "sages" think Asgorath was a primordial, but was she/he?)... Hell, did this not only birth Abeir, but possibly even other crystal spheres (like Krynn and Greyhawk)... though I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that that last bit won't be favored by others.
We can gather that at the time that Asgorath/Asgoroth did their thing with the big round thing in the sky, they then died. I can buy that if an "overgod/great primordial/big bad dude" KILLS THEMSELVES that maybe they can spin off some alternate world/universe. In fact, I kind of like that idea. In this instance, from their remains came mortal dragons and AT LEAST two lesser draconic entities that hate each other (Xymor and Tiamat OR Bahamut and Tiamat OR Marduk and Tiamat OR MAYBE EVEN Paladine and Takhisis).
It could have spawned OTHER deities as well. For instance, Kereska (draconic goddess of magic whose symbol is a 5 pointed star). If we assume that this act was the act that birthed "Mystryl", then perhaps "Mystryl" and "Kereska" are related (or were the same being). Possibly even later the two are separated out (perhaps when Mystryl died she possessed MORE than just a human girl named Mystra... perhaps she possessed a dragon named Kereska... perhaps she possessed a unicorn named Lurue... )
For all we know, this is how even Ao was born (possibly coming from the husk of Io/Asgorath/Asgoroth as a weakened entity).
Also, on the idea of other Overgods... assuming we have Ao, there's also Lendys and Tamara. In fact, to a degree, Tamara could be some kind of "relation" to Selune (both being deities of life and light). Lendys almost feels like Ao with his uncaring nature. Their duality almost feels like the Ao/Po duality that I started this thread with.
Hmmm, just because I've thrown around a lot of ideas here, maybe it might be worth listing "possible" overgods, maybe with some notes about them as well. Many may have fractured out. Many may have left.
Some of these beings may indeed be the same entity (I'm really hesitant to do that, but...). It almost seems like Annam/Kukul and Othea/Maztica and Lanaxis/Zaltec could all be related, but I'd resist that urge as the stories conflict as you peel back the onion more. I'd be more inclined to say that Othea/Maztica are more like sisters of Chauntea that come from a shattering of "the earth mother" whenever Abeir and Toril were severed.
List of possible "Overgods"
Ao
Kukul (notes: says he created humans from his own fingers. Earthly wife, Maztica, is killed by son Zaltec out of jealousy of Qotal. Kukul "leaves" when wife dies)
Annam (notes: His last "mortal" son mates himself with humans. Earthly wife, Othea, cheats on him. He has both deific children by an "unknown sky goddess" and children that could have been something akin to "Archfey"/"Primordials"/"Manifestations". Noting that his dalliances with Othea were prior to the separation of Abeir & Toril since the giants were at war with the batrachi, and Annam was still around AFTER the separation of worlds, since Othea's dalliances started at the end of the giant/dragon war)
Lendys (notes: extremely lawful draconic deity of justice/balance. In many ways, he/she resembles Amaunator... and it should be noted that FOR7 Giantcraft states "According to ancient giant legends, the sun is home to a great fiery dragon god that led dragonkind in the war against the giants." Also, Realmspace's entry for the sun states the inhabitants on the sun may be fleeing a "tyrant" and that there is reports of another race trying to take control... so Lathander and Amaunator/Lendys may have been striving for control of the sun in a war on the sun itself leading up to the spellplague)
Tamara (notes: extremely good draconic deity of light and life, given there's little on her, wouldn't mind equating her to Selune)
Asgorath/Asgoroth the World Shaper (notes: dead now, possibly gave its existence to form new worlds. Said to have been around since the universe's creation)
Ulutiu
Zotha (not much known... "created" some ice moon or crystal sun that Asgorath "destroyed"/"hurled at Toril")
Ouroboros the World Serpent |
| Markustay |
Posted - 26 Feb 2017 : 07:57:50
I'll have to check on that tomorrow, Wolly - I only came across it yesterday or the day before, and I was like, WTF? The name sounds similar but different, and her hut looks like its walking on spider legs now, except they aren't actually spider legs, they're tree roots. I just checked a couple of books I bought recently and don't see it, so now I'm thinking it was in a post-3e Dragon (or Dungoen) magazine article. I'd keep looking, but I need some sleep - helping someone move all day tomorrow.
Its possible they still have Baba Yaga as well, but that'd be weird, having two witches/hags so similar. Unless they purposely connect the lore - like saying that all arch-hags eventually get one those hella-kewl mobile homes. As for why they'd replace her (if they did), maybe Wotc saw all the focus Baba Yaga was getting in PF/Golarion, and decided they didn't want to help their competitors (because if you Google the name and D&D, you find lots of another company's products). |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 26 Feb 2017 : 02:05:57
Baba Yaga was a character of folklore, folktales, and myth a long time before TSR or WotC or Hasbro or Paizo ever existed, lol. Documented references date back to before the mid-18th century, artistic depictions found on cultural artifacts and in old pagan shrines and dug up from burial sites date back to ancient times, widely uniform dispersal across ethnic populations and even linguistic cues suggest origins which even predate Christianity. Baba Yaga shares many common elements with even older myths and legends describing crones and crazy witches and magics - across vast regions of Eurasia - although these are more tenuous and speculative. Suffice to say that Baba Yaga is well established in public domain and intellectual property (monopoly/branding/licensing) claims on Baba Yaga would be superficial at best.
I can understand Wizbro deliberately deciding to distance itself from Paizo. I can understand Wizbro deliberately deciding to distance itself from "pagan" things and "demons" and "devils" and all the other nasty "evils" which are now legally associated with confused, suicidal, vulnerable teens who take their roleplaying games (and sometimes also their religion) far too seriously to remain sane and healthy.
But if Baba Yaga could be legally identified as an "owned" property then, based on prima facie alone, TSR/WotC/Hasbro does have a more valid claim than Paizo.
And the holder of Gary Gygax's intellectual properties - which might or might not be the inheritor of TSR - could make a strong claim as well. And Wizbro would have to choose between defending their IP in court or letting the "piracy/poaching" continue uncontested, and either way could cost them a ton of money. Perhaps not a realistic scenario to us - those of us who think rationally and realistically, lol - but all too dire a threat from the perspective of bloated deadweight executives who want to guarantee their soft jobs remain fully secure until retirement. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 26 Feb 2017 : 00:50:17
That's weird, because Baba Yaga was part of 4e canon as well (specifically, she is one of the archfey of the Feywild). I don't believe Paizo using her has nothing to do with the change of name. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 25 Feb 2017 : 23:45:23
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And Baba Yaga is known to both worlds and those same regions (although 5e has changed her name, and her hut. probably BECAUSE Paizo used her).
TSR used her long before anyone had ever thought of Paizo or even 3E.
What is she called, now? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 25 Feb 2017 : 18:03:22
My biggest problem with the whole Ao thing is that he seem to be THE God in a lot of ways, even making rules for multispheric (non-FR specific) powers. Also, what I suspected all along about FR - thats its some sort of 'fulcrum' of the multiverse - has become fact in 5e, which makes Ao WAY more powerful be default. And at the same time, if he has powers/influence beyond Realmspace, then who is his 'Boss'?
Back in early 2e they said there were other 'overpowers' on Toril itself (which they quickly did away with), which made him only slightly higher-up the food chain than deities. By the end of 2e, he was THE God... but only of Realmspace. Now he seems to have a LOT of power - like creating Abeir and even affecting other settings - that I don't think he should have. Maybe the Ao in the novels and the beginning of 2e 'got fired', or rather, got re-absorbed into something greater, that is now taking a more direct hand in things itself? (meaning, Ao was also an 'avatar' of an uber-overpower, which works for me only because I think EVERYTHING is part of something higher up - the universe is just one big Ponzi Scheme). I mean, he went from feeling a wee bit threatened by Cyric, to changing the memories of entire crystal Spheres, to creating worlds whole-cloth, AND rules over a goddess who has a minion (Azuth) that got absorbed by Asmodeus, and that gave Asmodeus enough power to change the entirety of the Cosmology and rearrange planes. So if one of Ao's underlings has a minion that had that much power, than what the hell is Ao?
And better yet, just what the heck is/was Mystra/Mystryl? That stuff goes WAY beyond deity-level power. Perhaps even beyond Overgod power.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
yeah, I may like Golarion more if I had the AP's, but time is the constraint. I picked up the campaign setting, read through it, got a few novels... which were ok, but a little kiddy for me. I will say some of the things that I recall from memory, I liked. The kingdom based around defending against a portal to the hells or whatever <snip>
You mean the Chaos Scar?
Except The Worldwound CAME FIRST.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
The kingdom (Cheliax maybe) with the nobility tied to fiend worship was interesting. I liked some of the barbarian states in the north a little. The country with the hags... and I really like hags mind you... it just fell flat for me for some reason.
In my Misbegotten Realms, I merged Celiax with Thay (good fit, just have the oligarchy separate from all the Zulkirs/magic school). The witches worked for me - they have a similar dynamic to Rashemen, so I put that there (I actually have three smaller 'realms' - a nation split by civil war, and then one more 'neutral' group separate from the other two). And Baba Yaga is known to both worlds and those same regions (although 5e has changed her name, and her hut. probably BECAUSE Paizo used her). |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 25 Feb 2017 : 14:51:54
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Okay, we appear to be deviating somewhat from the scroll's main topic of discussion.
Let's get back to Ao, eh? 
Sorry Sage. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 25 Feb 2017 : 14:49:37
yeah, I may like Golarion more if I had the AP's, but time is the constraint. I picked up the campaign setting, read through it, got a few novels... which were ok, but a little kiddy for me. I will say some of the things that I recall from memory, I liked. The kingdom based around defending against a portal to the hells or whatever. The kingdom (Cheliax maybe) with the nobility tied to fiend worship was interesting. I liked some of the barbarian states in the north a little. The country with the hags... and I really like hags mind you... it just fell flat for me for some reason. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 25 Feb 2017 : 03:13:39
Okay, we appear to be deviating somewhat from the scroll's main topic of discussion.
Let's get back to Ao, eh? |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 25 Feb 2017 : 00:33:38
I am starting to get in to Pathfinder. Downloaded a few of the short stories, and bought the first 3 novels (I have a few of the sourcebooks already, because I played it for a very brief time). I still love my FR, but...I need something new to get into, especially if there aren't any new FR novels available, at least for the time being. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 24 Feb 2017 : 22:55:50
The funny thing is, that 'Earthfall' is one of the things I think they copied from FR - a lot of their designers used to be TSR 'insiders', and would have been privy to some of The Realms 'deep dark secrets'. But yeah, I get the 'Earthfall' thing - should have been 'planetfall' of some-such (Golarionfall is a mouthful).
I also never noticed they used Osirion, which is weird. My brain didn't register it as an Earth-god name (which it technically isn't), so I glossed over that connection mentally. So they basically made one of the same exact big mistakes that was made in FR? I wonder if it was the same designer. LOL {"I will ram my Anubis down their throats, and they will like it!"} 
Some of it works, and some of it doesn't. I think there also a bit of redundancy, which I don't get (two shades of the same flavor? Couldn't we have just gotten 'divisive cults' in one nation, instead of separate countries?)
The Murica' country bothers me the most. Just *UGH*
'Mammoth Lords' is cool - give that guy a raise. So much better than "Narfel, where the Nar live" (although thats still a touch better than Golarion's Numeria, land of 'grey aliens' and robots). Methinks someone loved Expedition to the Barrier Peaks a wee bit too much (I never ran that, but I was a player in a game that went through it... and I hated it).
It does lack a certain 'overall cohesion', but I would have to disagree with you Wooly in regards to FR being a 'lot' better (better, yes, but it has some glaring, 'shoe-horn' problems as well, and entire regions that don't have any history connected to other regions, as if each area sprang-up in a bubble). Over the years, a few dedicated designers have fixed some of that, but I think most of that was just name-dropping, Ed style, and not a lot of actually 'puzzle pieces fitting together snugly'. Still, somewhat better than Golarion's approach which is highly 'compartmentalized'.
And since we are doing this side-by-side here (in a an inappropriate thread, but hey, I'm talking to the OP and a Mod ), you want to know what setting really got that part right? Eberron - its really cohesive - everything makes sense where it is. Its like the history was written BEFORE the maps were finalized. As 'kitchen-sinkish' as that setting appears, it all makes sense within its own lore. The history - going back twice as far as FR's - didn't need to be 'back-filled' as ours did, or written around an already existing map (which is what PF feels like). I wish we could have gotten a reboot, with a few really great guys (do I really need to name names?) hammering out a very concise and immaculate history for the Realms, from the beginning....
...Ya know, so we don't windup with stuff like titans appearing in the GHotR centuries before they were created (in that same tome). 
Its one of the few things I envy about Eberron (okay, to be honest, I have quite a bit of 'Eb Envy' - I want a damn Choo Choo train!!!). |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 24 Feb 2017 : 19:06:38
Actually, I dislike the kitchen sink approach of Golarion. I think that a lot of parts of it feel entirely disconnected from other parts, and for me, the setting suffers because of that -- it doesn't have that natural, organic feel that the Realms and some other fantasy settings have.
There are a lot of individual parts of Golarion that I like, but there are other parts that feel like they were shoved in just to be there, without any thought to the overall fit.
And oh ye dancing gods, Osirion. I don't mind having a fantasy place that's similar to a real-world place... But Osirion just pushes it too far for me -- especially given that there are in-setting Osirion experts called Osirionologists. That just kills it for me. Egypt-ish, I could deal with. Egypt in all but name? No, that pushes it too far.
It also bugs me that the cataclysmic, sun-darkening event was Earthfall. Why was Earthfall when the Starstone fell out of the sky and slammed into Atlantis Golarion? (and what's so special about a continent-smashing hunk of rock that touching it makes someone a god?)
Again, there's a lot to like about Golarion... But it has a lot of things that stick out like a sore thumb, too, and between that and a lack of interesting characters in the setting, it's just never grabbed me the way the Realms did. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 24 Feb 2017 : 18:26:08
I think all of those worlds have their 'nifty bits'. I'm not a fan of Dragonlance in general, but I borrow from it a lot (I got a bad 1st impression of the setting and just never came back from that).
I forgot most of what I knew about Scarred Lands - looked into it years ago (during 3e). I do remember I liked it though, but its one of the very few settings I didn't 'borrow' any geography from for my Misbegotten Realms (and I borrowed from over 50, and some of those were pretty damn obscure). I just felt that I already had those 'flavors' in other things (Castlemourn was another I felt that way about).
As for PF/Golarion, I understand what you mean. I DO feel its almost like an 'upgrade' to FR itself - a LOT of the same concepts, but done in a much more precise and 'modern' way, with other flavors thrown in (flavors FR lacked, like 'steampunk'). Its a 'Kitchen Sink' setting, like GH and FR, and just as FR was light-years more advance than FR, I think Gol. made some improvements on the Realms (ya know, like it doesn't have 30 different 'Middle-Eastern' type cultures spread ALL OVER the damn place). It was also scratch-built, instead of build-as-we-go, as much of the Realms was (which messes with history more than anything else... there's a reason why Eric & GK lose hair sometimes...), and only suffered the 'shoe-horn' affect in one area, but it was MAJOR, and almost a deal-breaker (Paizo started out with just Varisia as a setting - with THREE human sub-groups - and then later expanded-outward and created the rest of the setting around it, and then those three racial groups didn't make much sense anymore... they didn't even bother trying to smooth those rough edges).
However, despite not having quite the detail FR did - and it's done a bang-up job trying to catch up - its 'AP' approach to developing the lore is stellar, and now an 'industry standard' (4e tried, sort of, and 5e has embraced it). The only product that came close to that in 3e was MoM, and that was the one 'mom' no-one really loved. LOL
If we were to be kind, one might say it was "ahead of its time", but in truth, it just lacked any inter-connectivity and both the lore and adventures were lackluster. Damn shame, considering its always been one of the most interesting regions in the Forgotten Realms.
Thats why the only piece of Golarion I stole whole-cloth was Varisia (and oddly, the three sub-groups made more sense in my conversion than they do in PF canon), and I think it was the ONLY game map I changed the size of to fit. The rest worked better as 'blended lore', merging it all with FR's geography and history (and thats how I learned the two are far more compatible than most folks realize). For example, we need more settlements in Sembia, so I just dropped Druma into Sembia, and its an IDEAL fit. Seriously, its the same damn place... and Paizo did it better.
So I guess the point I am trying to make is I agree with you on one level - its maps don't really 'do it' for me (although a bit more 'sensical' than FR's), and I have some problems with the geography (no more so than I do with most other fantasy maps {sigh}, but I would have to say pretty much every last bit of lore - and ALL their APs - are worth investing in and adapting. Not if you are an FR 'fanboi', but if you are a D&D gamer, then its really pure win. 5e APs come close (and they're getting better each time), but there is a certain panache they have that still eludes WotC... can't quite put my finger on it. I guess the closest I can come to is 'fun'. I actually enjoy reading the PF APs like the way I enjoyed reading FR's 1e/2e lore - it doesn't matter if you play the game. They're just that juicy. As for the 5e ones, I use them for references, and thats all. They are 'dry' as reading material goes (but still excellent adventure material).
But as I said, 5e APs are getting better each time, and from what I understand 3PF is 'slipping' a wee bit (I know they dropped the stories that were included in each AP... which is why I stopped buying them). That means in time, the (5e) FR material may become 'fun' again (as just reading material), the way classic FR lore was. Ya know, if WotC started including a short story with each AP - as a FREE separate downloadable 'wen enhancement' - they may be able to one-up Paizo and steal their thunder (and customers). Tose stories would also act as a lure to pull people into buying the main product. Just something to think about.
And of course Ed should write them. Most of them, anyway. What most settings (including PF) lack is that feeling of 'history', the feeling of 'real' that Ed manages to capture. How many settings do readers want to know what kinds of coins the characters are using? Ed makes that happen - he makes you want to know more. He's dropped more 'red slippers' in a single story than a geisha does in a lifetime.  |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 24 Feb 2017 : 17:11:38
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
The concept of a world where Primordials and Gods are at war is pretty old. Just a couple years before WoW even came out there was the Titans versus the gods that was in Sword & Sorcery's Scarred Lands setting. In that, rather than the world be split, the titans were recently cast down.
The Titans versus the gods dates back to Greco-Roman mythology, and maybe earlier than that. It definitely predates WoW by a year or two, at least.
Yeah, I knew someone would call me out on that after I posted it. I've half wondered though if the popularity of that setting didn't kick off the dawn titan/god thing though. If I had to pick a setting after the forgotten realms to be a favorite for me, it would be the scarred lands though. Could be rose colored glasses, but I find Golarion clunky, don't favor Greyhawk/Dragonlance.... I would consider a game in Midgard though (the Kobold Press game world).
I'm cooling on Golarion, myself. There's a lot of nifty stuff, but I'm not so much a fan of the kitchen sink approach they went with.
Are you aware of the new Midgard Kickstarter that's ending tomorrow?
Actually, no, and thank you.... 3 hours to go and I got the one with the 5e heroes handbook and campaign setting in print and pdf. I like that they were updating deep magic to 5e, because that was a very nice work. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 24 Feb 2017 : 05:05:30
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
The concept of a world where Primordials and Gods are at war is pretty old. Just a couple years before WoW even came out there was the Titans versus the gods that was in Sword & Sorcery's Scarred Lands setting. In that, rather than the world be split, the titans were recently cast down.
The Titans versus the gods dates back to Greco-Roman mythology, and maybe earlier than that. It definitely predates WoW by a year or two, at least.
Yeah, I knew someone would call me out on that after I posted it. I've half wondered though if the popularity of that setting didn't kick off the dawn titan/god thing though. If I had to pick a setting after the forgotten realms to be a favorite for me, it would be the scarred lands though. Could be rose colored glasses, but I find Golarion clunky, don't favor Greyhawk/Dragonlance.... I would consider a game in Midgard though (the Kobold Press game world).
I'm cooling on Golarion, myself. There's a lot of nifty stuff, but I'm not so much a fan of the kitchen sink approach they went with.
Are you aware of the new Midgard Kickstarter that's ending tomorrow? |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 23 Feb 2017 : 23:43:42
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
The concept of a world where Primordials and Gods are at war is pretty old. Just a couple years before WoW even came out there was the Titans versus the gods that was in Sword & Sorcery's Scarred Lands setting. In that, rather than the world be split, the titans were recently cast down.
The Titans versus the gods dates back to Greco-Roman mythology, and maybe earlier than that. It definitely predates WoW by a year or two, at least.
Yeah, I knew someone would call me out on that after I posted it. I've half wondered though if the popularity of that setting didn't kick off the dawn titan/god thing though. If I had to pick a setting after the forgotten realms to be a favorite for me, it would be the scarred lands though. Could be rose colored glasses, but I find Golarion clunky, don't favor Greyhawk/Dragonlance.... I would consider a game in Midgard though (the Kobold Press game world). |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 23 Feb 2017 : 20:41:34
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
The concept of a world where Primordials and Gods are at war is pretty old. Just a couple years before WoW even came out there was the Titans versus the gods that was in Sword & Sorcery's Scarred Lands setting. In that, rather than the world be split, the titans were recently cast down.
The Titans versus the gods dates back to Greco-Roman mythology, and maybe earlier than that. It definitely predates WoW by a year or two, at least. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 23 Feb 2017 : 20:06:54
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
In fact Io/Asgorath sources are... conflicting. He is stated to be a god in some sources (even 4e sources), but in the 4e FRCG, "Asgoroth the World Shaper" the one who throw an ice moon to Toril during the "changing of the stars" (in sarrukh records) and destroyed the batrachi civilization, is treated as a female primordial. Just like the Asgorath casting down Zotha in certain red dragon's myth...
Then, we have the Dawn War (that according to 4e sources, the same Dawn War takes place in "Nerath" world, Abeir-Toril and Athas) were Io is killed... but the Dawn War happens some millennia before "Asgoroth" cast down the ice moon on Abeir-Toril. So, not only Asgorath's sex or true nature is uncertain. His/Her death is also uncertain...
Only in 4e. Io is alive and well, chronologically, well into modern 3.5e.
4e basically decided to shoehorn an entire new creation myth into an already existing creation myth, now the whole thing reads like World of Warcraft's creation myth.
Faerun didn't actually need a creation myth, much less one blatantly ripped from Azeroth. The Primordial/God thing is a retread of the Elemental Lords and the Titans from WoW.
The concept of a world where Primordials and Gods are at war is pretty old. Just a couple years before WoW even came out there was the Titans versus the gods that was in Sword & Sorcery's Scarred Lands setting. In that, rather than the world be split, the titans were recently cast down. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 23 Feb 2017 : 14:57:23
I stopped playing GH and following its lore quite awhile ago (not that much came out for it after 2e anyway). But I recall quite a few people throwing around the 'fact' that Io was the overgod of GH on the WotC boards, and no-one ever questioned it then. I've always assumed it to be true, because everyone just accepted it as fact.
Now, that might sound stupid on the surface, but if you ever visited those boards you'd know everyone's favorite response to stuff was, "SOURCES?" Its what happens when you get a room full of geeks together who are all trying to prove who has the most 'nerd facts' wedged into their brains. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 23 Feb 2017 : 12:52:52
Although I recognize that retconning and shoehorning wasn't the best move, I also believe that every fantastic setting needs a premade cosmogony on its own if it wants to survive in a genre that have well made and compelling fantasy settings, such as LotR, the Wheel of Time, or WoW. The designers 4e FR should have used the one they had in earlier editions, or at least devising a new one that didn't contradict with former canon instead of shoehorning a new one, but this don't invalidates the need of a cosmogony event for the Realms. Not in a time when people is accustomed to this thanks to movies and videogames.
BTW, I'm not criticizing here, just giving my opinion. Also, I like 4e lore but I can understand people who don't like it.
However, we need to take into account that not every person who plays D&D likes world building, even if such person enjoy the story of the setting or like its background. The existence of such individuals makes mandatory that the setting provide them with a premade backstory if the setting wants to sell (and selling the setting is necessary for the setting to survive). Even if there are DMs like me, who like world-building and will disregard that cosmogony in favor of a cosmogony of our own creation. |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 23 Feb 2017 : 11:25:34
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
In fact Io/Asgorath sources are... conflicting. He is stated to be a god in some sources (even 4e sources), but in the 4e FRCG, "Asgoroth the World Shaper" the one who throw an ice moon to Toril during the "changing of the stars" (in sarrukh records) and destroyed the batrachi civilization, is treated as a female primordial. Just like the Asgorath casting down Zotha in certain red dragon's myth...
Then, we have the Dawn War (that according to 4e sources, the same Dawn War takes place in "Nerath" world, Abeir-Toril and Athas) were Io is killed... but the Dawn War happens some millennia before "Asgoroth" cast down the ice moon on Abeir-Toril. So, not only Asgorath's sex or true nature is uncertain. His/Her death is also uncertain...
Only in 4e. Io is alive and well, chronologically, well into modern 3.5e.
4e basically decided to shoehorn an entire new creation myth into an already existing creation myth, now the whole thing reads like World of Warcraft's creation myth.
Faerun didn't actually need a creation myth, much less one blatantly ripped from Azeroth. The Primordial/God thing is a retread of the Elemental Lords and the Titans from WoW. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 23 Feb 2017 : 03:43:45
quote:
Originally posted by Rymac
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm personally inclined to think that the name Ao was chosen for the same reason Toril was named Abeir-Toril -- to move the name to the front of the list.
I think that was the case in adding Abeir to the name of Toril. I think Jeff or someone else said as much somewhere...
As for naming Ao, I was always of the opinion that the name, with an 'a' and and 'o' was a cheeky way of saying the Overgod is the "Alpha and Omega".
It's long been knownnthat Ao was not something Ed created. TSR come up with the concept of Ao and he was brought into the setting during the Time of Troubles -- through the 1e to 2e change over. As it stands, Ed has said in the past that he has no idea on where TSR came up with the concept of Ao. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 22 Feb 2017 : 22:24:18
Io is mentioned as the creator of the multiverse in Monster Mythology, so, he is maybe an overgod.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Plus there is the whole Io/Ao thing, which I don't think has been mentioned (in this thread) yet.
Io is the overgod of GH, AND he is the creator of the Dragons.
I do know we've made the Io/Asgorath connection though (if not here, then elsewhere).
According to Cult of the Dragon, Asgorath is Io's name in the Realms (just as Aasterinian is called Hlal in the Realms, and Bahamut is/was called Xymor). |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 22 Feb 2017 : 22:06:49
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Plus there is the whole Io/Ao thing, which I don't think has been mentioned (in this thread) yet.
Io is the overgod of GH, AND he is the creator of the Dragons.
Where is he mentioned as the overgod of greyhawk? I didn't know they'd every set one over greyhawk.
I do know we've made the Io/Asgorath connection though (if not here, then elsewhere). Of course, sex means nothing, but Io always portrayed as male, Asgorath always as female.
It would fit with the concept that Annam, Ao, Io, Kukul, etc... were all "overgods". It could even be that Selune and Shar were overgods, but when Selune "ripped" a piece of herself out and hurled it at Shar (which also tore some from Shar) she was reduced to regular god status. Same might be said for other deities. seemingly, Asgorath was split into Tiamat/Bahamut according to the lore. So, a lot of "overgods" or extremely powerful entities were ripped apart into lesser entities. |
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