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 Ao is actually a Hawaiian god's name
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11681 Posts

Posted - 19 Feb 2017 :  05:33:48  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
I just saw this and thought it was very interesting. Especially if compared against the concept that maybe Shar wants to be Ao's equal. I know there's nothing to it, but...

The most important gods of the Polynesian pantheon were those associated with creation myths and legends. Best known were Rangi (Father Sky) and Papa (Mother Earth), the two supreme creator gods of the Maori people of New Zealand. According to Maori legend, Rangi and Papa served as the source from which all things came.

The counterparts of Rangi and Papa in Hawaiian mythology were Ao and Po. Ao represented the male force in the universe and was associated with the sky, the day, and light. Po, the feminine force, was linked with the earth, darkness, and night. According to Hawaiian myth, a creator god named Ku separated Ao from Po. Ku then worked with Lono, god of the heavens, and Kane, the chief god of generation and growth, to create the earth and all living things. After Kane made the first man and woman, he became angry at their bad behavior and decided that humans would be subject to death. He then left the earth and went to live in heaven.


Read more: http://www.mythencyclopedia.com/Pa-Pr/Polynesian-Mythology.html#ixzz4Z6eJCNux

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Zeromaru X
Great Reader

Colombia
2438 Posts

Posted - 19 Feb 2017 :  06:04:28  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This is really interesting, thanks. In fact, this gave a lot of ideas to my take on the Realms... (my imagination is running wild, lol)

Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world...
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7963 Posts

Posted - 19 Feb 2017 :  21:56:05  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ao hasn't had many appearances in Realmslore, but he does have a decidedly masculine identity.

Perhaps there is indeed a Yin-Yang symmetry in which a (feminine) overgod named Po "keeps the balance" of Abeir?

[/Ayrik]
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11681 Posts

Posted - 19 Feb 2017 :  23:32:56  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
According to Hawaiian myth, a creator god named Ku separated Ao from Po.

That one sentence makes me think of the Maztican deity of Kukul, who is a "Father" god who creates humankind by chopping off his fingers. We don't really see him in the Maztican Pantheon because he "leaves" in some form or another after Maztica (his wife and an earth goddess) is "killed" by her son Zaltec. Given the whole thing with both Maztica and Kukul being gone, makes me wonder if somehow WAAAYYYY back Kukul wasn't on some level at a power level equal to Ao. I wouldn't want to equate Maztica with Po though. I also know that Kukul is meant to be a representation of Kukulkan (a mayan feathered serpent deity... which is further represented by Ubtao/Qotal).

Another idea of course is Po being Io, except Io isn't female. It would fit though with Io being Asgorath.

Basically, I'm kind of questioning how many overgods there may or may not be in the realms currently or in the past. We also know that Ao reports to someone else as well. So, maybe there were several powerful overgod like entities (maybe Asgorath was one, maybe Ao was, maybe Arambar was one, maybe Annam was one, maybe Kukul was one, etc...). Maybe even in order to become the OVERGOD, Ao had to absorb some of these entities.


Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader

Colombia
2438 Posts

Posted - 19 Feb 2017 :  23:56:39  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In fact Io/Asgorath sources are... conflicting. He is stated to be a god in some sources (even 4e sources), but in the 4e FRCG, "Asgoroth the World Shaper" the one who throw an ice moon to Toril during the "changing of the stars" (in sarrukh records) and destroyed the batrachi civilization, is treated as a female primordial. Just like the Asgorath casting down Zotha in certain red dragon's myth...

Then, we have the Dawn War (that according to 4e sources, the same Dawn War takes place in "Nerath" world, Abeir-Toril and Athas) were Io is killed... but the Dawn War happens some millennia before "Asgoroth" cast down the ice moon on Abeir-Toril. So, not only Asgorath's sex or true nature is uncertain. His/Her death is also uncertain...


Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 19 Feb 2017 23:58:54
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7963 Posts

Posted - 20 Feb 2017 :  00:20:27  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Lord Ao's reports (that "the Realms are in balance") might be addressed to a superior over-the-overgods entity (or entities), and Ao does use the term "Master".

But Ao's reports might be addressed to his overgodly peers, the term "Master" might simply be the proper title/protocol when formally addressing a grouping of overgods or when specifically addressing whatever (not necessarily overgodly nor even godly) agent/proxy/entity has been charged with overseeing/correcting Ao's embarassing little pantheon difficulties. For all we know, Ao is basically an overgodly ghetto bum and a really bad neighbour, his "Master" might be the overgodly equivalent of a welfare worker or parole officer assigned to supervise Ao's behaviour and ensure he cleans up his trash.

The text in the Avatar novels seems to be purposely ambiguous. Especially since Ao was a necessary mechanism to keep the gods in line, and an interesting character/entity to explore, but care needed to be taken to keep Ao out of the spotlight. The 1E-to-2E transition occurred during an era when WotC took special pains to avoid "breaking" the setting or arbitrarily (mis)use the godly-powered characters within. Lord Ao was not designed to be a real character with a real story and stat block and function in the setting - he was invented as a narrative mechanism to explain the (then completely new and very exciting) idea of nearly-omnipotent nearly-omniscient nearly-omnipresent (and clearly petulant) ***gods*** having their powers curbed by an even greater force.

You might find this old scroll interesting.


[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 20 Feb 2017 00:21:22
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 20 Feb 2017 :  04:32:32  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm personally inclined to think that the name Ao was chosen for the same reason Toril was named Abeir-Toril -- to move the name to the front of the list.

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Rymac
Learned Scribe

USA
315 Posts

Posted - 20 Feb 2017 :  06:46:25  Show Profile  Visit Rymac's Homepage Send Rymac a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I'm personally inclined to think that the name Ao was chosen for the same reason Toril was named Abeir-Toril -- to move the name to the front of the list.



I think that was the case in adding Abeir to the name of Toril. I think Jeff or someone else said as much somewhere...

As for naming Ao, I was always of the opinion that the name, with an 'a' and and 'o' was a cheeky way of saying the Overgod is the "Alpha and Omega".

- Ryan
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11681 Posts

Posted - 20 Feb 2017 :  15:29:58  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Lord Ao's reports (that "the Realms are in balance") might be addressed to a superior over-the-overgods entity (or entities), and Ao does use the term "Master".

But Ao's reports might be addressed to his overgodly peers, the term "Master" might simply be the proper title/protocol when formally addressing a grouping of overgods or when specifically addressing whatever (not necessarily overgodly nor even godly) agent/proxy/entity has been charged with overseeing/correcting Ao's embarassing little pantheon difficulties. For all we know, Ao is basically an overgodly ghetto bum and a really bad neighbour, his "Master" might be the overgodly equivalent of a welfare worker or parole officer assigned to supervise Ao's behaviour and ensure he cleans up his trash.

The text in the Avatar novels seems to be purposely ambiguous. Especially since Ao was a necessary mechanism to keep the gods in line, and an interesting character/entity to explore, but care needed to be taken to keep Ao out of the spotlight. The 1E-to-2E transition occurred during an era when WotC took special pains to avoid "breaking" the setting or arbitrarily (mis)use the godly-powered characters within. Lord Ao was not designed to be a real character with a real story and stat block and function in the setting - he was invented as a narrative mechanism to explain the (then completely new and very exciting) idea of nearly-omnipotent nearly-omniscient nearly-omnipresent (and clearly petulant) ***gods*** having their powers curbed by an even greater force.

You might find this old scroll interesting.





Thank you Ayrik. Yes, I did like Sage's last post in that thread. So, Ao is some kind of draconic deity in Chinese mythology as well. Still not sure what to do with it, but I am liking the idea that there's multiple overgods and not JUST Ao, but that most of them are so distant and don't interact with the people of the world such that the people think the god is dead/gone. Thus, Kukul may have similar power to Ao, but he didn't cast his gods down during the ToT. The same with whoever might be over the Zakharan deities. Maybe Annam didn't force the giant deities to earth during the ToT either (I don't recall any references to giant deities anyway).

Of course, some might say that all these entities are one and the same. Given that many of them claim to have created humanity that could be true (at least Kukul and Annam do, though these could have been different populations... not sure what Kara-Tur/Zakhara mythology says yet about the creation of man)

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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CorellonsDevout
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USA
2708 Posts

Posted - 20 Feb 2017 :  23:21:45  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That's interesting. I love mythology (though I am most familiar with Japanese and Greek. I don't know much Hawaiian).

It would make sense that Ao isn't the only overgod, especially since he seems to "rule" the Faerunian gods specifically. Even he likely has to abide by rules and answer to a greater being(s), which could be one of the reasons he tries to keep the Faerunian pantheon in line.

Sweet water and light laughter
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moonbeast
Senior Scribe

USA
522 Posts

Posted - 22 Feb 2017 :  02:51:52  Show Profile Send moonbeast a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I'm personally inclined to think that the name Ao was chosen for the same reason Toril was named Abeir-Toril -- to move the name to the front of the list.



And I also think that the spelling of Ao also implies a supreme god-of-gods…. a lord above all. Alpha and Omega. The beginning and the end, in the Greek alphabet.

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 22 Feb 2017 :  03:02:31  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Plus there is the whole Io/Ao thing, which I don't think has been mentioned (in this thread) yet.

Io is the overgod of GH, AND he is the creator of the Dragons.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11681 Posts

Posted - 22 Feb 2017 :  22:06:49  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Plus there is the whole Io/Ao thing, which I don't think has been mentioned (in this thread) yet.

Io is the overgod of GH, AND he is the creator of the Dragons.



Where is he mentioned as the overgod of greyhawk? I didn't know they'd every set one over greyhawk.

I do know we've made the Io/Asgorath connection though (if not here, then elsewhere). Of course, sex means nothing, but Io always portrayed as male, Asgorath always as female.

It would fit with the concept that Annam, Ao, Io, Kukul, etc... were all "overgods". It could even be that Selune and Shar were overgods, but when Selune "ripped" a piece of herself out and hurled it at Shar (which also tore some from Shar) she was reduced to regular god status. Same might be said for other deities. seemingly, Asgorath was split into Tiamat/Bahamut according to the lore. So, a lot of "overgods" or extremely powerful entities were ripped apart into lesser entities.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader

Colombia
2438 Posts

Posted - 22 Feb 2017 :  22:24:18  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Io is mentioned as the creator of the multiverse in Monster Mythology, so, he is maybe an overgod.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Plus there is the whole Io/Ao thing, which I don't think has been mentioned (in this thread) yet.

Io is the overgod of GH, AND he is the creator of the Dragons.



I do know we've made the Io/Asgorath connection though (if not here, then elsewhere).


According to Cult of the Dragon, Asgorath is Io's name in the Realms (just as Aasterinian is called Hlal in the Realms, and Bahamut is/was called Xymor).

Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 22 Feb 2017 22:26:10
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31701 Posts

Posted - 23 Feb 2017 :  03:43:45  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Rymac

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I'm personally inclined to think that the name Ao was chosen for the same reason Toril was named Abeir-Toril -- to move the name to the front of the list.



I think that was the case in adding Abeir to the name of Toril. I think Jeff or someone else said as much somewhere...

As for naming Ao, I was always of the opinion that the name, with an 'a' and and 'o' was a cheeky way of saying the Overgod is the "Alpha and Omega".

It's long been knownnthat Ao was not something Ed created. TSR come up with the concept of Ao and he was brought into the setting during the Time of Troubles -- through the 1e to 2e change over. As it stands, Ed has said in the past that he has no idea on where TSR came up with the concept of Ao.

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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1477 Posts

Posted - 23 Feb 2017 :  11:25:34  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

In fact Io/Asgorath sources are... conflicting. He is stated to be a god in some sources (even 4e sources), but in the 4e FRCG, "Asgoroth the World Shaper" the one who throw an ice moon to Toril during the "changing of the stars" (in sarrukh records) and destroyed the batrachi civilization, is treated as a female primordial. Just like the Asgorath casting down Zotha in certain red dragon's myth...

Then, we have the Dawn War (that according to 4e sources, the same Dawn War takes place in "Nerath" world, Abeir-Toril and Athas) were Io is killed... but the Dawn War happens some millennia before "Asgoroth" cast down the ice moon on Abeir-Toril. So, not only Asgorath's sex or true nature is uncertain. His/Her death is also uncertain...





Only in 4e. Io is alive and well, chronologically, well into modern 3.5e.

4e basically decided to shoehorn an entire new creation myth into an already existing creation myth, now the whole thing reads like World of Warcraft's creation myth.

Faerun didn't actually need a creation myth, much less one blatantly ripped from Azeroth. The Primordial/God thing is a retread of the Elemental Lords and the Titans from WoW.
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Zeromaru X
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Colombia
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Posted - 23 Feb 2017 :  12:52:52  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Although I recognize that retconning and shoehorning wasn't the best move, I also believe that every fantastic setting needs a premade cosmogony on its own if it wants to survive in a genre that have well made and compelling fantasy settings, such as LotR, the Wheel of Time, or WoW. The designers 4e FR should have used the one they had in earlier editions, or at least devising a new one that didn't contradict with former canon instead of shoehorning a new one, but this don't invalidates the need of a cosmogony event for the Realms. Not in a time when people is accustomed to this thanks to movies and videogames.

BTW, I'm not criticizing here, just giving my opinion. Also, I like 4e lore but I can understand people who don't like it.

However, we need to take into account that not every person who plays D&D likes world building, even if such person enjoy the story of the setting or like its background. The existence of such individuals makes mandatory that the setting provide them with a premade backstory if the setting wants to sell (and selling the setting is necessary for the setting to survive). Even if there are DMs like me, who like world-building and will disregard that cosmogony in favor of a cosmogony of our own creation.

Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world...
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
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Posted - 23 Feb 2017 :  14:57:23  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I stopped playing GH and following its lore quite awhile ago (not that much came out for it after 2e anyway). But I recall quite a few people throwing around the 'fact' that Io was the overgod of GH on the WotC boards, and no-one ever questioned it then. I've always assumed it to be true, because everyone just accepted it as fact.

Now, that might sound stupid on the surface, but if you ever visited those boards you'd know everyone's favorite response to stuff was, "SOURCES?" Its what happens when you get a room full of geeks together who are all trying to prove who has the most 'nerd facts' wedged into their brains.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 23 Feb 2017 14:58:24
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11681 Posts

Posted - 23 Feb 2017 :  20:06:54  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

In fact Io/Asgorath sources are... conflicting. He is stated to be a god in some sources (even 4e sources), but in the 4e FRCG, "Asgoroth the World Shaper" the one who throw an ice moon to Toril during the "changing of the stars" (in sarrukh records) and destroyed the batrachi civilization, is treated as a female primordial. Just like the Asgorath casting down Zotha in certain red dragon's myth...

Then, we have the Dawn War (that according to 4e sources, the same Dawn War takes place in "Nerath" world, Abeir-Toril and Athas) were Io is killed... but the Dawn War happens some millennia before "Asgoroth" cast down the ice moon on Abeir-Toril. So, not only Asgorath's sex or true nature is uncertain. His/Her death is also uncertain...





Only in 4e. Io is alive and well, chronologically, well into modern 3.5e.

4e basically decided to shoehorn an entire new creation myth into an already existing creation myth, now the whole thing reads like World of Warcraft's creation myth.

Faerun didn't actually need a creation myth, much less one blatantly ripped from Azeroth. The Primordial/God thing is a retread of the Elemental Lords and the Titans from WoW.



The concept of a world where Primordials and Gods are at war is pretty old. Just a couple years before WoW even came out there was the Titans versus the gods that was in Sword & Sorcery's Scarred Lands setting. In that, rather than the world be split, the titans were recently cast down.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 23 Feb 2017 :  20:41:34  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


The concept of a world where Primordials and Gods are at war is pretty old. Just a couple years before WoW even came out there was the Titans versus the gods that was in Sword & Sorcery's Scarred Lands setting. In that, rather than the world be split, the titans were recently cast down.



The Titans versus the gods dates back to Greco-Roman mythology, and maybe earlier than that. It definitely predates WoW by a year or two, at least.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 23 Feb 2017 20:42:03
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11681 Posts

Posted - 23 Feb 2017 :  23:43:42  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


The concept of a world where Primordials and Gods are at war is pretty old. Just a couple years before WoW even came out there was the Titans versus the gods that was in Sword & Sorcery's Scarred Lands setting. In that, rather than the world be split, the titans were recently cast down.



The Titans versus the gods dates back to Greco-Roman mythology, and maybe earlier than that. It definitely predates WoW by a year or two, at least.



Yeah, I knew someone would call me out on that after I posted it. I've half wondered though if the popularity of that setting didn't kick off the dawn titan/god thing though. If I had to pick a setting after the forgotten realms to be a favorite for me, it would be the scarred lands though. Could be rose colored glasses, but I find Golarion clunky, don't favor Greyhawk/Dragonlance.... I would consider a game in Midgard though (the Kobold Press game world).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
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Posted - 24 Feb 2017 :  05:05:30  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


The concept of a world where Primordials and Gods are at war is pretty old. Just a couple years before WoW even came out there was the Titans versus the gods that was in Sword & Sorcery's Scarred Lands setting. In that, rather than the world be split, the titans were recently cast down.



The Titans versus the gods dates back to Greco-Roman mythology, and maybe earlier than that. It definitely predates WoW by a year or two, at least.



Yeah, I knew someone would call me out on that after I posted it. I've half wondered though if the popularity of that setting didn't kick off the dawn titan/god thing though. If I had to pick a setting after the forgotten realms to be a favorite for me, it would be the scarred lands though. Could be rose colored glasses, but I find Golarion clunky, don't favor Greyhawk/Dragonlance.... I would consider a game in Midgard though (the Kobold Press game world).



I'm cooling on Golarion, myself. There's a lot of nifty stuff, but I'm not so much a fan of the kitchen sink approach they went with.

Are you aware of the new Midgard Kickstarter that's ending tomorrow?

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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11681 Posts

Posted - 24 Feb 2017 :  17:11:38  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


The concept of a world where Primordials and Gods are at war is pretty old. Just a couple years before WoW even came out there was the Titans versus the gods that was in Sword & Sorcery's Scarred Lands setting. In that, rather than the world be split, the titans were recently cast down.



The Titans versus the gods dates back to Greco-Roman mythology, and maybe earlier than that. It definitely predates WoW by a year or two, at least.



Yeah, I knew someone would call me out on that after I posted it. I've half wondered though if the popularity of that setting didn't kick off the dawn titan/god thing though. If I had to pick a setting after the forgotten realms to be a favorite for me, it would be the scarred lands though. Could be rose colored glasses, but I find Golarion clunky, don't favor Greyhawk/Dragonlance.... I would consider a game in Midgard though (the Kobold Press game world).



I'm cooling on Golarion, myself. There's a lot of nifty stuff, but I'm not so much a fan of the kitchen sink approach they went with.

Are you aware of the new Midgard Kickstarter that's ending tomorrow?



Actually, no, and thank you.... 3 hours to go and I got the one with the 5e heroes handbook and campaign setting in print and pdf. I like that they were updating deep magic to 5e, because that was a very nice work.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
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Posted - 24 Feb 2017 :  18:26:08  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think all of those worlds have their 'nifty bits'. I'm not a fan of Dragonlance in general, but I borrow from it a lot (I got a bad 1st impression of the setting and just never came back from that).

I forgot most of what I knew about Scarred Lands - looked into it years ago (during 3e). I do remember I liked it though, but its one of the very few settings I didn't 'borrow' any geography from for my Misbegotten Realms (and I borrowed from over 50, and some of those were pretty damn obscure). I just felt that I already had those 'flavors' in other things (Castlemourn was another I felt that way about).

As for PF/Golarion, I understand what you mean. I DO feel its almost like an 'upgrade' to FR itself - a LOT of the same concepts, but done in a much more precise and 'modern' way, with other flavors thrown in (flavors FR lacked, like 'steampunk'). Its a 'Kitchen Sink' setting, like GH and FR, and just as FR was light-years more advance than FR, I think Gol. made some improvements on the Realms (ya know, like it doesn't have 30 different 'Middle-Eastern' type cultures spread ALL OVER the damn place). It was also scratch-built, instead of build-as-we-go, as much of the Realms was (which messes with history more than anything else... there's a reason why Eric & GK lose hair sometimes...), and only suffered the 'shoe-horn' affect in one area, but it was MAJOR, and almost a deal-breaker (Paizo started out with just Varisia as a setting - with THREE human sub-groups - and then later expanded-outward and created the rest of the setting around it, and then those three racial groups didn't make much sense anymore... they didn't even bother trying to smooth those rough edges).

However, despite not having quite the detail FR did - and it's done a bang-up job trying to catch up - its 'AP' approach to developing the lore is stellar, and now an 'industry standard' (4e tried, sort of, and 5e has embraced it). The only product that came close to that in 3e was MoM, and that was the one 'mom' no-one really loved. LOL
If we were to be kind, one might say it was "ahead of its time", but in truth, it just lacked any inter-connectivity and both the lore and adventures were lackluster. Damn shame, considering its always been one of the most interesting regions in the Forgotten Realms.

Thats why the only piece of Golarion I stole whole-cloth was Varisia (and oddly, the three sub-groups made more sense in my conversion than they do in PF canon), and I think it was the ONLY game map I changed the size of to fit. The rest worked better as 'blended lore', merging it all with FR's geography and history (and thats how I learned the two are far more compatible than most folks realize). For example, we need more settlements in Sembia, so I just dropped Druma into Sembia, and its an IDEAL fit. Seriously, its the same damn place... and Paizo did it better.

So I guess the point I am trying to make is I agree with you on one level - its maps don't really 'do it' for me (although a bit more 'sensical' than FR's), and I have some problems with the geography (no more so than I do with most other fantasy maps {sigh}, but I would have to say pretty much every last bit of lore - and ALL their APs - are worth investing in and adapting. Not if you are an FR 'fanboi', but if you are a D&D gamer, then its really pure win. 5e APs come close (and they're getting better each time), but there is a certain panache they have that still eludes WotC... can't quite put my finger on it. I guess the closest I can come to is 'fun'. I actually enjoy reading the PF APs like the way I enjoyed reading FR's 1e/2e lore - it doesn't matter if you play the game. They're just that juicy. As for the 5e ones, I use them for references, and thats all. They are 'dry' as reading material goes (but still excellent adventure material).

But as I said, 5e APs are getting better each time, and from what I understand 3PF is 'slipping' a wee bit (I know they dropped the stories that were included in each AP... which is why I stopped buying them). That means in time, the (5e) FR material may become 'fun' again (as just reading material), the way classic FR lore was. Ya know, if WotC started including a short story with each AP - as a FREE separate downloadable 'wen enhancement' - they may be able to one-up Paizo and steal their thunder (and customers). Tose stories would also act as a lure to pull people into buying the main product. Just something to think about.

And of course Ed should write them. Most of them, anyway. What most settings (including PF) lack is that feeling of 'history', the feeling of 'real' that Ed manages to capture. How many settings do readers want to know what kinds of coins the characters are using? Ed makes that happen - he makes you want to know more. He's dropped more 'red slippers' in a single story than a geisha does in a lifetime.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 24 Feb 2017 22:57:43
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 24 Feb 2017 :  19:06:38  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Actually, I dislike the kitchen sink approach of Golarion. I think that a lot of parts of it feel entirely disconnected from other parts, and for me, the setting suffers because of that -- it doesn't have that natural, organic feel that the Realms and some other fantasy settings have.

There are a lot of individual parts of Golarion that I like, but there are other parts that feel like they were shoved in just to be there, without any thought to the overall fit.

And oh ye dancing gods, Osirion. I don't mind having a fantasy place that's similar to a real-world place... But Osirion just pushes it too far for me -- especially given that there are in-setting Osirion experts called Osirionologists. That just kills it for me. Egypt-ish, I could deal with. Egypt in all but name? No, that pushes it too far.

It also bugs me that the cataclysmic, sun-darkening event was Earthfall. Why was Earthfall when the Starstone fell out of the sky and slammed into Atlantis Golarion? (and what's so special about a continent-smashing hunk of rock that touching it makes someone a god?)

Again, there's a lot to like about Golarion... But it has a lot of things that stick out like a sore thumb, too, and between that and a lack of interesting characters in the setting, it's just never grabbed me the way the Realms did.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 24 Feb 2017 19:22:11
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
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Posted - 24 Feb 2017 :  22:55:50  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The funny thing is, that 'Earthfall' is one of the things I think they copied from FR - a lot of their designers used to be TSR 'insiders', and would have been privy to some of The Realms 'deep dark secrets'. But yeah, I get the 'Earthfall' thing - should have been 'planetfall' of some-such (Golarionfall is a mouthful).

I also never noticed they used Osirion, which is weird. My brain didn't register it as an Earth-god name (which it technically isn't), so I glossed over that connection mentally. So they basically made one of the same exact big mistakes that was made in FR? I wonder if it was the same designer. LOL {"I will ram my Anubis down their throats, and they will like it!"}

Some of it works, and some of it doesn't. I think there also a bit of redundancy, which I don't get (two shades of the same flavor? Couldn't we have just gotten 'divisive cults' in one nation, instead of separate countries?)

The Murica' country bothers me the most. Just *UGH*

'Mammoth Lords' is cool - give that guy a raise. So much better than "Narfel, where the Nar live" (although thats still a touch better than Golarion's Numeria, land of 'grey aliens' and robots). Methinks someone loved Expedition to the Barrier Peaks a wee bit too much (I never ran that, but I was a player in a game that went through it... and I hated it).

It does lack a certain 'overall cohesion', but I would have to disagree with you Wooly in regards to FR being a 'lot' better (better, yes, but it has some glaring, 'shoe-horn' problems as well, and entire regions that don't have any history connected to other regions, as if each area sprang-up in a bubble). Over the years, a few dedicated designers have fixed some of that, but I think most of that was just name-dropping, Ed style, and not a lot of actually 'puzzle pieces fitting together snugly'. Still, somewhat better than Golarion's approach which is highly 'compartmentalized'.

And since we are doing this side-by-side here (in a an inappropriate thread, but hey, I'm talking to the OP and a Mod ), you want to know what setting really got that part right? Eberron - its really cohesive - everything makes sense where it is. Its like the history was written BEFORE the maps were finalized. As 'kitchen-sinkish' as that setting appears, it all makes sense within its own lore. The history - going back twice as far as FR's - didn't need to be 'back-filled' as ours did, or written around an already existing map (which is what PF feels like). I wish we could have gotten a reboot, with a few really great guys (do I really need to name names?) hammering out a very concise and immaculate history for the Realms, from the beginning....

...Ya know, so we don't windup with stuff like titans appearing in the GHotR centuries before they were created (in that same tome).

Its one of the few things I envy about Eberron (okay, to be honest, I have quite a bit of 'Eb Envy' - I want a damn Choo Choo train!!!).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 24 Feb 2017 22:58:20
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
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Posted - 25 Feb 2017 :  00:33:38  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I am starting to get in to Pathfinder. Downloaded a few of the short stories, and bought the first 3 novels (I have a few of the sourcebooks already, because I played it for a very brief time). I still love my FR, but...I need something new to get into, especially if there aren't any new FR novels available, at least for the time being.

Sweet water and light laughter
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31701 Posts

Posted - 25 Feb 2017 :  03:13:39  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Okay, we appear to be deviating somewhat from the scroll's main topic of discussion.

Let's get back to Ao, eh?

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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
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Posted - 25 Feb 2017 :  14:49:37  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
yeah, I may like Golarion more if I had the AP's, but time is the constraint. I picked up the campaign setting, read through it, got a few novels... which were ok, but a little kiddy for me. I will say some of the things that I recall from memory, I liked. The kingdom based around defending against a portal to the hells or whatever. The kingdom (Cheliax maybe) with the nobility tied to fiend worship was interesting. I liked some of the barbarian states in the north a little. The country with the hags... and I really like hags mind you... it just fell flat for me for some reason.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11681 Posts

Posted - 25 Feb 2017 :  14:51:54  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

Okay, we appear to be deviating somewhat from the scroll's main topic of discussion.

Let's get back to Ao, eh?



Sorry Sage.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 25 Feb 2017 :  18:03:22  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My biggest problem with the whole Ao thing is that he seem to be THE God in a lot of ways, even making rules for multispheric (non-FR specific) powers. Also, what I suspected all along about FR - thats its some sort of 'fulcrum' of the multiverse - has become fact in 5e, which makes Ao WAY more powerful be default. And at the same time, if he has powers/influence beyond Realmspace, then who is his 'Boss'?

Back in early 2e they said there were other 'overpowers' on Toril itself (which they quickly did away with), which made him only slightly higher-up the food chain than deities. By the end of 2e, he was THE God... but only of Realmspace. Now he seems to have a LOT of power - like creating Abeir and even affecting other settings - that I don't think he should have. Maybe the Ao in the novels and the beginning of 2e 'got fired', or rather, got re-absorbed into something greater, that is now taking a more direct hand in things itself? (meaning, Ao was also an 'avatar' of an uber-overpower, which works for me only because I think EVERYTHING is part of something higher up - the universe is just one big Ponzi Scheme). I mean, he went from feeling a wee bit threatened by Cyric, to changing the memories of entire crystal Spheres, to creating worlds whole-cloth, AND rules over a goddess who has a minion (Azuth) that got absorbed by Asmodeus, and that gave Asmodeus enough power to change the entirety of the Cosmology and rearrange planes. So if one of Ao's underlings has a minion that had that much power, than what the hell is Ao?
And better yet, just what the heck is/was Mystra/Mystryl? That stuff goes WAY beyond deity-level power. Perhaps even beyond Overgod power.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

yeah, I may like Golarion more if I had the AP's, but time is the constraint. I picked up the campaign setting, read through it, got a few novels... which were ok, but a little kiddy for me. I will say some of the things that I recall from memory, I liked. The kingdom based around defending against a portal to the hells or whatever <snip>
You mean the Chaos Scar?
Except The Worldwound CAME FIRST.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

The kingdom (Cheliax maybe) with the nobility tied to fiend worship was interesting. I liked some of the barbarian states in the north a little. The country with the hags... and I really like hags mind you... it just fell flat for me for some reason.

In my Misbegotten Realms, I merged Celiax with Thay (good fit, just have the oligarchy separate from all the Zulkirs/magic school). The witches worked for me - they have a similar dynamic to Rashemen, so I put that there (I actually have three smaller 'realms' - a nation split by civil war, and then one more 'neutral' group separate from the other two). And Baba Yaga is known to both worlds and those same regions (although 5e has changed her name, and her hut. probably BECAUSE Paizo used her).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 25 Feb 2017 18:07:15
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