| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Markustay |
Posted - 16 Dec 2016 : 23:37:16
EDIT: New Question - see last post below!
Okay, about a week or so ago I mentioned in another thread that there was 'no good spot' for Returned Abeir in 5e. I needed a place where I could have steamy jungles, and super-tall (frigid) mountain ranges nearby. Everything was either already 'taken', or the geography/climate wasn't quite right.
And then I remembered Halruaa... they blew it up! It would be kinda hard to 'get it back' in 5e, considering how badly they obliterated it in 4e. Hence, this weird, 'Frankensteined' map I made, piecing others together - both official, and a couple of mine. Turns out, Returned Abeir fits EXACTLY in the spot Halruaa used to be! I had to nudge the Channath/Elsir Vale slightly North, but no big. It worked out pretty darned sweet!
I also included the 'Halruaa ruins' in red, which would be buried/whatever. I also think Talathgard would have survived almost unscathed, so that could still be the 'headquarters/capitol' of 'Hidden Halruaa', if you wanted to keep some piece of it for 5e (or you could just keep the whole thing and just ignore this). With only the very slightest of 'nudges', Talathgard fits on Starspire in Abeir! How perfect is that? I nudged the other locales a wee bit as well, some more than others (Chisolmé was a bit of a problem). Only one city fell-out in the water, which is kinda cool. I left-off the lesser settlements.
And the 'Windswept Ports' could be the new 'gateway' to Zakhara! How cool is that? Nothing like recycled lore. 
Map of Laeraknd appearing where Halruaa was |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Darkmeer |
Posted - 12 Jan 2017 : 01:32:19
Your attention to those details is super appreciated! The fact you are paying so close attention to all of this makes it that much more fun to follow. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 11 Jan 2017 : 16:29:05
And I just now realized I forgot to add the halfling village of Besert to Cormyr (from Dragon #269). So much for 'the most complete map of cormyr settlements ever done'. 
If I go back into this (which I sincerely doubt!), I would add it to that clear area just below the Hullack Forest on this map. That could change on the REAL Cormyr map I am working on. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 11 Jan 2017 : 03:43:06
Slight update to The Map.
Added the shadows for rivers & coasts. Added two settlements in Mistledale. Added the name of the Hunter's Hills.
More Lore:
Doomslag is an oddity - its an ancient structure, and yet only appeared very recently. This spot was once the site of a battle between Elminster and priests of Shar, and there was some sort of other creature involved. Rumor has it it was some sort of 'tomb of Karsus', but since the archmages death is quite infamous and the circumstances surrounding it alleviate any possibility he had a 'final resting place', the validity of this is rather doubtful. If those purported 'catacombs' still exist, they now sit beneath this structure - an ancient, gothic fortress of immense size made from black stone.
Soon after appearing, several adventuring groups tried to investigate the structure, and perhaps claim it as their own. One such group finally managed (its said that they killed off all the 'competition'), but at a cost of almost their entire adventuring band. Only a very powerful warrior (a self-styled 'baron') and his 'court wizard' remained, and they have since attracted new followers and claim all the surrounding lands (much to the dismay of the folk in those lands). They've managed to become a thorn in the side of Shaerdon and the Citystate of Starmantle, hindering traffic along the road and charging extravagant 'protection fees' (they call them 'taxes'). Anyone who refuses to pay said fees fall prey to mysterious bandits in the night (and sometimes in broad daylight even).
Both the Hin and the rulers of Starmantle are seeking a band of adventurers powerful enough to remove this menace. (This site takes the place of the Black Eagle Barony in the Mystara/Karmeikos/Five Shires lore. I've left it purposefully vague so that a DM can spin the details any way they want).
|
| Markustay |
Posted - 10 Jan 2017 : 21:00:11
I just realized I forgot to add the drop-shadows to the coast and rivers {ugh!}
I always forget something... I'll just wait until somebody finds a spelling error before I do an update to this.
More Notes:
Aralent - this is taken from a couple of references in PftF (pg.103), and further questions I asked ed regarding it in his 2009 scroll (pg.28). In order to reconcile this with more ore Ed provided later (an actual 'kingdom' of Aralent) in his 2012 thread (pg.27), I might want to rename this Aralant on future maps just to avoid confusion (but it needs to remain very close, because the lore IS all interrelated).
Caragar was originally mentioned on pg.13 of PftF, and a follow-up question of mine to Ed got me this response:
"Originally, Carragar was the name of a now-long-dead holy man who founded the present-day settlement of Carragar (it was his hermitage, established next to a good strong drinkable spring, and before his death a hamlet of his descendants and like-minded worshippers). It is now, over a century later, a village-about-to-become-town dominated by a grown-from-the-days-of-the-mortal-Carragar community of priests. That community (and therefore the village) is centered around a temple, the Holy house of Carragar." (Ed's 2008 scroll, pg.56)
I would move it to a somewhat different position in a more canon map (its only geographic description was "North-east of ormath")
Nathlek is canon, and is known as 'the city of cats', and is also known as a center of Nobanion worship. Whatever little there is on the place can be found in Vilhon Reach. I'd place a decent number of catfolk here (tabaxi), as well as at least a few halflings (that get along splendidly with the cat-worshipers).
Rhios is a settlement that appears on a pre-TSR map of the Realms, that falls along that river in the Shining Plains. I shifted it to this position (rather than create a new, completely non-canon town in that spot), which really needed a settlement there for this conversion. It has no lore, aside from its obvious position along a fairly major N/S tradeway - make of it what you will (but for the purposes of this conversion, assume a fairly decent population of halflings there just to keep an eye on things, and not much in the way of docks, beyond small fishing boats).
Urml is the human village, as presented in Swords of the Iron Legion. Ermul - which is not shown on this map (and erroneously spelled 'Urml' in Vilhon Reach) - is the Gripli hamlet located west of that, on the river and in the bayou (sunken forest). I only put a smattering of ruins and non-human sites on this map, because its meant as more of a 'Players map' (and also, I just didn't want to put that much more energy into it - other maps I am currently working on will have that stuff).
Westgate needs no introduction, but it warrants an entry here for the Five Shires conversion: For many years the halflings lived on the other side of the small mountain range (large hills, really) from Redwater Vale, and mostly kept to themselves. Some time around 1350 DR or so some enterprising halflings began to sail out of the mouth of the Longflow and conduct pirate activities in the Inner Sea. Some of these even docked at Westgate occasionally, which was just fine with the folks of that city (even though these hin pirates had little to do with their usual criminal visitors from the Pirate Isles). Eventually, a Hin ship was attacked within Westgate harbor by other pirates, and the Westgaters took the side of those other raiders, blaming the whole thing on the Halflings (not wanting to deter their lucrative arrangements with the Pirates of the isles). This would have been around 1370 or so (3e), and the hin stopped using Westgate completely, which the city soon regretted. The industrious Hin built up there fleets and harbors in the Lake of the Long Arm itself, and soon rivaled the power of the Pirate Isles, and all that lucrative trade (both through smuggling and the legal kind) was now bypassing Westgate completely and finding its way into the Dragonmere by another route. Normally only having to contend with Teziir (and even then, only during the warmer months), Westgate now found itself losing quite a bit of income to their formerly 'good neighbors'. Thus far, they have shown no overt signs of aggression, but some pirate vessels (and docks, warehouses, and normal trade ships) have been burned in the night, especially the non-Hin ships that are now periodically docking at the halfing ports. Also, they have set patrols on the road going south to Aergruth, and heavily 'tax' (confiscate and/or fine to the point where there is no profit to be made) all goods being moved along that trail. Most sane folk (wishing to trade) have given up on that route, and some illicit trade has now begun to move through the mountain passes through Longflask, via Redwater (Westgate has been trying to covertly take-over Redwater for some time, but are consistently blocked by The Harpers and their agents).
When the Spellplague struck, it left a lot of these 'mundane' problems by the roadside. With every Realm simply trying to protect itself from within and without, no one was really worrying much about who was doing better business with whom... except the hin, and perhaps some expatriot Thayans (and Amn). During the 'lost century', the Hin built up their fleets, and became a proper nation - Shaerdon. By the time of the Sundering, Westgate had once-again turned its eyes on what is now a very juicy prize indeed, and would love to control all of the hin lands, eventually. Unfortunately for them, they are thwarted at every turn, not only by the Hin and their 'good' allies, but also by Zhent mercenaries and Red Wizards, who prefer to keep the status-quo 'as is' (and maybe gain a foothold for themselves).
I've been trying to do the history in these entries so they cover everything from the 1e-5e eras, so it will be usable by everyone. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 10 Jan 2017 : 03:54:26
I agree with Darkmeer. Stellar work.
-- George Krashos |
| Darkmeer |
Posted - 10 Jan 2017 : 03:06:49
That is a most excellent writeup, and an amazing map! Sure, it "wasn't supposed to happen," but the maps you make sing from the page. They are of utmost quality and you can fit things in where I would have doubted anything could fit. I would happily add this to "my 'Realms" which is very Canon lite for reasons just like this. The work is excellent. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 09 Jan 2017 : 18:23:11
Okay, here goes - my latest abomination: Five Shires along The Lake of the Long Arm conversion. This started out as a lark I was playing with around Christmas and I just kept going.
For conversion notes in regards to using it in The Realms, see Dalor Darden's most excellent thread on the subject. Even though its in a different spot, its close enough where most of it still works (the 'ebil dwarves' were Duergar from under the Osraun Mounatins, and the Orcs came from The Black Spires (Obrekh range). Notes concerning the map itself are on the deviantART page. For 'canon' info on the Five Shires locales (and history), refer to that product by Ed Greenwood (I understand he is somewhat familiar with The Realms as well).
Other:
Ripplestones is canon, from an EG novel, but it probably isn't placed correctly here. It is in the general area, though, so it may as well be. I needed a 'ferry depot' thorp there, so basically its almost an extension of Rollstone Keep now, which has also seen tremendous growth and is now a Large Town (assume that it will eventually include Ripplestones as it grows across the river, and it will be a city at that point). There is now major sea traffic along that channel/river (which strangely never had a name... must correct that in the future), so a ferry was needed to continue the road there.
Marl is from the conversion Dalor Darden (and I) did, and takes the place of 'Mar' on the Five Shires (Mystara) maps. In this iteration it is a gnome town (with some halflings and dwarves), that has gone from a small mining operation into a place where illicit goods can be smuggled into and out of Shireton (via Crookshil), so its growing... slowly. Still mostly a sleepy little mining village, though.
Crookshil is exactly what it sounds like - a place where the 'seedier' elements of the hinfolk hang out. Originally called 'Crookshank' (until I realized that was Hermione's cat's name), its rumored to have a thief's school hidden somewhere. A lot of contraband (untaxed items) passes through Crookshil, and the place is officially 'frowned upon' by the Five Shires government (but still tolerated, because the hin are a tolerant lot).
Haegel's Crossing exists because it seemed kind of odd to me for a road that is so important to southern-running traffic (land traffic to the Vilhon Reach and Erlkazar regions) that there wouldn't be anything there where it met the Trader's Road. Originally, just an Inn stood on this spot, some hundred years ago, and then craftsmen, as well as others, began to see a need for their services and settled around the place. It changed hands several times, until the last owner bought it some 22 summers back.
That man was Garlack Ogrebiter, self-styled mercenary (but really thug-for-hire) who happen to have a windfall that enabled him to buy the place from the previous owner, who was growing quite old and had no family to take it over. He and his wife (and later daughter) ran the place for a few years... and most folk think he runs it still. The truth is, a doppleganger killed Garlack and took his place 17 years ago. Originally working as an operative for The Unseen (and still reports to them, albeit begrudgingly), his plan was to keep on eye on all the lucrative trade that ran along the Trader's Road, between the Sword Coast, Westgate, Cormyr, and parts south, and report back to 'his masters'. He intended to have the other two family members have 'an accident', knowing full well he couldn't fool them indefinitely... but a strange thing began to occur. Whenever he got something he should have known wrong - like remember an old acquaintance - the wife (and later daughter) began 'covering' for him, explaining how he had hit his head and his mind was a bit 'jumbled' these days. Intrigued as to why they would do this, he eventually approached the wife and told her he knew she knew, and wanted to know why she hadn't 'outed' him. She explained that she knew it wasn't her husband because, although in public people thought him a friendly host and decent fellow, the truth was that Garlack was a drunkard who beat his wife and even his child regularly (a child of only three at that point!) She knew something had changed, but she couldn't put her finger on what. She made-up the story about him hitting his head to their daughter, and the two of them just went with that all the time (the daughter didn't learn the truth until years later). She also confessed to him at this time that she was pregnant with his child, which caught him off-guard.
So the new 'Garlack' made a deal with her, and continued to live as her husband and raise 'their' daughter... and one thing lead to another and they had two more children of their own. The doppleganger has fallen in love with his new life, and his family, and doesn't really want to be associated with the Unseen anymore, but he has to keep up his front as their operative so that they do not kill all of them and take their places (his reports include very little useful information - just barely enough to appease his bosses). His two hybrid children are 13 (girl) and 16 (boy), who are considered Changelings (see Eberron rules). It was because of the son's accidental transformation at an early age that the first daughter - the wholly human one - first found out about her 'fathers' true nature (she had gone through a period of self-evaluation for several months after this, but slowly came back from her melancholy). She has just turned 21, and has begun to take-on some leadership roles within the settlement (the inn, also named Haegel's Crossing, has always stood-in as a 'town hall' when the need arose).
And thus it stands today (5e). The son is beginning to get a bit 'antsy', hearing tavern-talk of amazing adventures to be had in far-off lands. His father cautions him against such thoughts, however, for he is afraid what will happen if he (and all of them) were ever found out. Its just a matter of time before the son tries to slip away in the night with one group of adventurers or another. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 28 Dec 2016 : 06:46:43
Actually, got a little more 'involved' with this then I meant to. I don't want to do a full-blown map project - it was supposed to be a 'quick hack'.
It happens every time I get near Erlkazar... I just can't stand what 3e did to the place...
Hopefully something worth showing tomorrow - got the roads and settlements all in today. Don't want to get too carried way - I have a lot of other maps I want to get back to.
Its just that it fit SO GOOD. 
Sadly, it means the last 5Shires conversion I did was all for naught. Hopefully Dalor will be able to re-use a lot of the lore we came up with with this one (and if not, he can just stick to the other one - both work). |
| Darkmeer |
Posted - 28 Dec 2016 : 06:02:32
It's a lovely map, but if you're not flipping upside down then that does pose a problem. I'm going to have to think about that a bit more. As much as I lurk, this is a topic that piques my interest. Most map projects do that. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 24 Dec 2016 : 05:36:09
You mean like this? 
Thats a conversion I did a few years back, placing it in the Gulthmere Forest. I had to flip it upside down though, to make it work, and that always bothered me. With the newer one I'm doing (nothing fancy, just a quick 'hack' of the 3e map), you'll be able to use all the Five Shires product maps as-is. |
| Darkmeer |
Posted - 24 Dec 2016 : 03:52:48
I can't recall the exact orientation of the five shires (I remember seeing the map at one point), but what about east of Starmantle on the northern tip of the coast eliminating some of the Gulthmere Forest there? Straight shot to Sembia and north of Turmish. Would the Five Shires fit there? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 22 Dec 2016 : 18:54:47
As I said above, both the Greenfields (Greenest) and the Sunset Vale are considered 'hin regions', although NOT official halfling nations, or anything even resembling such a political body.
And BTW, 'hin' is usually extended to mean 'halflings and gnomes', as Ed Greenwood himself did in his Dragon Magazine #269 article, Hin Nobody Knows (a great Volo article with a bunch of new locales!). Its basically an FR/Mystara term for 'wee folk' (of the non-Fey variety). They do tend to live together, or at least, in the same regions, as they do in Sunset Vale and Waterdeep.
It comes in handy to be the same size as your neighbors when you want to borrow a leafblower, or whatever.  |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 22 Dec 2016 : 15:41:51
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I've never quite gotten what "the five shires" is, unless people are meaning the shires from Tolkien fame. I gather its definitely a Halfling homeland, and honestly, if anywhere I'm thinking bordering on Tethyr / Erlkazar would seem the best fit.
It's a Known World Gazeteer that Ed wrote which he's stated can be tweaked to fit into the Realms.
-- George Krashos
Gotcha. Looking at a PDF of that. the general shape, coastline, mountains, etc.... it looks like Luiren. That being said, I wouldn't be surprised if there were some sizable-but-smaller-than-Luiren shires east of Tethyr along the lake of steam... maybe some near the border kingdoms on the western Shaar.... maybe southwest of Cormyr |
| Markustay |
Posted - 22 Dec 2016 : 05:39:07
Its one of the few books I have left... sort of.
I had a box - sort of like a briefcase but much fatter - that I got from work years and years ago (they held replacement window samples). I kept all my Mystara stuff in one, and I had my Greyhawk stuff in another. The rest of my stuff was proudly displayed on my big bookshelf right next to my desk.
After the fire, there was almost nothing left of my room... EXCEPt those two boxes. I don't know what they're made of, and they got badly scorched, but they remained intact. In fact, I think the water from the firehoses did more damage (some got inside).
So I have nearly all my Mystara Gazeteers, in various stages of decomposition. Some got badly wet and moldy, like Orcs of Thar, and it was nearly impossible to get the pages back apart intact. Others, like the Five Shires, escaped the brunt of the water, so only have the 'charred edges'. Very rustic, very 'used' looking.
I hold onto to them for much the reasons you just gave - it would very hard to find new copies. The Greyhawk stuff fared much better though - it seems no water got into that one. I should market those damn things - they're like fire-safes.
The Five Shires could fit along the coast of Luiren twice over, and if we add that bit to the west, and the peninsula, like three times. When I checked the SS Luiren map a few hours ago, I noted the best placement would be to the east in Luiren - there's only one settlement over that way, so most of the map could remain intact with little fudging.
I do plan on doing a 'Five Shires in Luiren' conversion as well, when I get to that part on my new series of maps, in a separate layer, for those who want it, but its going to be a LONG time before I revisit the Shining South (although I am reposting a couple of my older maps 'for posterity' very soon, including the SS one, and those will have an updated look, with some corrections on them - nothing spectacular - they were just worth revisiting). Hopefully I'll have the SS one done and posted on my DeviantART page by christmas - it really is a very nice map. The Eastern Heartlands will take a bit longer, because its going to be a 'directors cut' (adding quite a bit more to the original, aside form the artwork update). |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 22 Dec 2016 : 03:31:27
As Krash said.
I had emailed Ed and mentioned I thought the book was a good fit for Luiren, and his response was:
quote:
Sure. Superimpose the Luiren cities and government structure, shift places "just a little" to make room for them, and, yes, it works admirably for that. Almost as if someone designed it that way. ;}
As for the book itself, it's not one that's easy to get for a reasonable price, and Ed told me there were some issues with early printings having pages duplicated and others missing.
It took me like two years of watching on eBay before I got a copy, in very good shape, for something like $25. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 22 Dec 2016 : 02:18:36
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I've never quite gotten what "the five shires" is, unless people are meaning the shires from Tolkien fame. I gather its definitely a Halfling homeland, and honestly, if anywhere I'm thinking bordering on Tethyr / Erlkazar would seem the best fit.
It's a Known World Gazeteer that Ed wrote which he's stated can be tweaked to fit into the Realms.
-- George Krashos |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 22 Dec 2016 : 01:58:58
I've never quite gotten what "the five shires" is, unless people are meaning the shires from Tolkien fame. I gather its definitely a Halfling homeland, and honestly, if anywhere I'm thinking bordering on Tethyr / Erlkazar would seem the best fit. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 22 Dec 2016 : 01:09:50
I didn't even think about the Osraun for the Orcs (which is really stupid of me, considering thats where we had them from with my last five Shires conversion). Nice call!
And I didn't change the orientation of the Five Shires, I changed the orientation of the lake of the Long Arm instead. Its not all that off (i used as much of the original as I could), and I think it may even look better this way. Hopefully I can have something presentable in a little while.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Ed didn't flat out say it, but he really strongly implied he intended to use the Five Shires for Luiren.
I can fit the Five Shires into Luiren 3 times over. Luiren is actually too big, IMHO. Its also very much out-of-the-way, as far as where most DMs are running their games. Thus, although Luiren is most certainly the most obvious choice, its not exactly the best choice.
WE have at least two other 'halfling regions' not that far from where I'm thinking of placing 5S - the Sunset Vale, and the Greenfields. We also have the fallen realm of Meiritin in eastern Amn, and several other regions where there is a significant population of halflings (including the Hin kingdom of Delmyr, in the Endless Wastes... which is actually far closer in size to Five Shires than Luiren is). In fact, now that I am looking into it, nearly every human kingdom has a region that is 'predominantly halfling' (except in Cormyr, where the settlements are spread all over, just as with the human ones). Impiltur has a region like this (4 villages are named, IIRC), and halflings seem to be the predominant group in northern Durpar as well (which makes a lot of sense, given that FR Hin actually originated in Zakhara). In the Dales, they seem to be mixed-in as with Cormyr (there is no 'Hin Dale', sadly).
Anyhow... I've got a nice open, nearly-deserted region with a large body of water connecting directly with the Inner sea, and its centrally located to The Realms, and is just the right size for said treatment. So, YEAH, Luiren might be the 'correct' spot, but Redwater Vale is the 'right' spot. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 21 Dec 2016 : 23:55:50
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And the other is a new spot I hadn't considered, for the soul reason the shape of the coast wasn't quite right. I've come to realize that thats not really an issue, because of the utter lack of lore on that location... and its ALSO central to the setting!!! On the Dragon Coast, along the Lake of the Long Arm. Plus, the coast isn't nearly as bad as I'd thought, and we have almost ZERO lore about that spot (a couple of locales, never written anywhere). The (5S) history has a couple of snafus, but thats easily remedied, and it could be tied to other nearby, 'halfling regions'. That might be the perfect spot right there - I even have an outlet right to the Inner Sea (the pirate-aspect is sort-of major to the 5S lore)!
Except there's no mountain range, and no easy 'fix' for that. That may be the only downside, though.
Great option. If you run the Five Shires north-east to south-west along the Lake of the Long Arm, you have the Giant's Run Mountains close enough to the west to account for your need for mountains. Perfect place in my book and if you grab the history from Five Shires (which I plan to adapt for Luiren in my spare time one day), the Orsraun Mountains to the east give you an endless supply of orcs.
-- George Krashos |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 21 Dec 2016 : 20:54:31
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Well, I was really referring to my last question, which I got almost zero feedback on (luv ya' dazzlerdal  ).
But thats okay. I've become so enamored with the idea of sticking the Five Shires in Redwater Dale (and until I started this, I didn't even know there was a 'Redwater Dale') that I'm just going with that. At first I was leery about adding hills/small mountains to the area, and then I found that there were some there, on the Fonstad Atlas maps, that had somehow 'gotten lost' along the way (which means they were on Ed's originals, and I just now checked while typing this, and YES, they were!).
Its really the perfect area for this sort of thing. I know I did one already using the Gulthmere, but that spot wasn't ideal - I had to flip everything upside down. And even though its very close to where I am putting it now (how could I have missed this before?  ), this placement is way better in regards to 'usability'. Hell, in 4e/5e its right on the Cormyr border (unless Cormyr pulled back from the Dragon Coast again). Also, I think I must have gotten the scale a bit wrong on that one, since I know I sized this one precisely (to the 3e map), and its smaller than the Gulthmere version (I have a new technique I developed for getting extremely accurate scale-matching).
Hopefully I'll be able to post something soon. I want to get a newer edition of my Shar map done before X-mas, though - another map that was really worth revisiting for me.
Ed didn't flat out say it, but he really strongly implied he intended to use the Five Shires for Luiren. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 21 Dec 2016 : 20:05:32
Well i would have offered more of an opinion but i only know the forgotten realms |
| Markustay |
Posted - 21 Dec 2016 : 19:18:08
Well, I was really referring to my last question, which I got almost zero feedback on (luv ya' dazzlerdal ).
But thats okay. I've become so enamored with the idea of sticking the Five Shires in Redwater Dale (and until I started this, I didn't even know there was a 'Redwater Dale') that I'm just going with that. At first I was leery about adding hills/small mountains to the area, and then I found that there were some there, on the Fonstad Atlas maps, that had somehow 'gotten lost' along the way (which means they were on Ed's originals, and I just now checked while typing this, and YES, they were!).
Its really the perfect area for this sort of thing. I know I did one already using the Gulthmere, but that spot wasn't ideal - I had to flip everything upside down. And even though its very close to where I am putting it now (how could I have missed this before? ), this placement is way better in regards to 'usability'. Hell, in 4e/5e its right on the Cormyr border (unless Cormyr pulled back from the Dragon Coast again). Also, I think I must have gotten the scale a bit wrong on that one, since I know I sized this one precisely (to the 3e map), and its smaller than the Gulthmere version (I have a new technique I developed for getting extremely accurate scale-matching).
Hopefully I'll be able to post something soon. I want to get a newer edition of my Shar map done before X-mas, though - another map that was really worth revisiting for me. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 21 Dec 2016 : 17:49:58
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So I guess everyone here at Candlekeep is only interested in 'canon' material, I take it?
I'm interested in that which doesn't violate known canon... Which isn't quite the same as sticking 100% to known canon -- I like playing in the grey areas between the borders defined by canon.
For example: the Realmsified warforged I came up with. We know there are intelligent, free-willed contructs in the Realms. And we know Raumathar played with contructs. Nothing says they animated a squad of constructs with the souls of fallen soldiers -- but nothing says they didn't, and them trying would not violate known lore.
So canon doesn't say they exist, but canon doesn't say they don't or can't exist. It is therefore a grey area, and it's acceptable to me.
In terms of maps, if canon says there are no settlements of any sort betwixt point A and point B, then I'd object to seeing one dropped there. If canon doesn't say anything about settlements betwixt points A and B, or only says something vague like "few live in this area" or says it's sparsely settled, then I have no objection to a village or two being dropped in there. A major metropolis, or mythal-clad ruins, yes, I'd object to -- we know where those are. But Nameless Generic Village #3? Sure, slap it on there. |
| Alexander Clark |
Posted - 21 Dec 2016 : 16:54:16
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So I guess everyone here at Candlekeep is only interested in 'canon' material, I take it?
I enjoy reading your threads, but I am still too ignorant of Realms lore to give any advice. |
| Matrix Sorcica |
Posted - 21 Dec 2016 : 13:59:07
You know I'm not :) |
| Markustay |
Posted - 20 Dec 2016 : 14:43:41
So I guess everyone here at Candlekeep is only interested in 'canon' material, I take it? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 18 Dec 2016 : 18:35:08
I had briefly considered that, but tossed it out.
Although the Firward Mnts. would make a decent replacement for the Cruth mountains, and we do have a reasonably close approximation of the coast there, having 'Hin Pirates' on a lake with the Rashemie doesn't sound right. The whole flavor is off. Its also a bit too far north, and doesn't meet one of my criteria - would people actually use it there? I'm just not 'feeling it'.
There are two other possiblities...
The first I had already considered but quickly dismissed; perhaps a bit TOO quickly. On the Dragonmere, just SW of Cormyr. The coast is about right, and I can easily fudge the southern Stormhorns to do what i want. I tossed that idea out, though, because of Cormyr itself - too much history there. How could I possibly explain the complete lack of interaction? Most of the spots I picked we could just turn a blind eye to any oddities, but for that spot, we'd have to go with its a new nation, formed in the past century (which makes no sense, given Cormyr's own expansion during that time period), or say it just appeared there, a'la the Spellplague - we did have a Sundering, after all. I don't really like either of those scenarios. And why wouldn't the Shires just have become part of Cormyr?
But now I'm thinking, why wouldn't the Five Shires just have become part of Cormyr? It could be like a duchy, or a 'march' (protectorate status). It could have just been a collection of halfling villages (they do have a big presence in Sunset Vale) that banded-together post-Spellplague for common protection, and upon seeing that, Cormyr 'annexed' the whole thing as part of its own imperialistic goals... but did so soft-handedly. So it could work LATE 3e on into 4e and especially 5e. But there is still a lot of geography problems - I'd have to really mess with 'the Backlands', which has a lot of lore attached, and I'd also be messing with the crater-like shape of the Tunlands, which I've felt is some sort of 'Easter Egg' of the setting. The only reason why I'm even reconsidering it at this point is that the placement really hits one of my two main criteria right on the head - its so centrally located that EVERYONE could use it there; people who play in both the North and the Heartlands. On the 2e campaign map, it would be almost dead-center. That may be enough 'good' to out-weigh all the bad. MAYBE.
And the other is a new spot I hadn't considered, for the soul reason the shape of the coast wasn't quite right. I've come to realize that thats not really an issue, because of the utter lack of lore on that location... and its ALSO central to the setting!!! On the Dragon Coast, along the Lake of the Long Arm. Plus, the coast isn't nearly as bad as I'd thought, and we have almost ZERO lore about that spot (a couple of locales, never written anywhere). The (5S) history has a couple of snafus, but thats easily remedied, and it could be tied to other nearby, 'halfling regions'. That might be the perfect spot right there - I even have an outlet right to the Inner Sea (the pirate-aspect is sort-of major to the 5S lore)!
Except there's no mountain range, and no easy 'fix' for that. That may be the only downside, though. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 18 Dec 2016 : 17:42:15
Ashanath has next to no lore on it. You could have a secret nation there hidden by the tornados and other things designed to keep people away. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 18 Dec 2016 : 17:34:32
NEW QUESTION:
So where do others feel The Five Shires could possibly go, if one were to have it enter the Realms post-Sundering?
This is not a "should it go into the Realms" question, so no discussion there, please. I found an excellent placement (two actually) on the north shore of the Lake of Steam (its so small I could fit it there twice, with room to spare). My main objective - other than shoe-horning it in - is to make it so that most of the history still works (less important), and to keep the existing Five Shires maps 100% usable (VERY important).
However, I'd prefer it somewhere on the Sea of Fallen Stars itself. Altumbel immediately jumps to mind, but I'd have to mirror it. Same goes for a spot in the upper RH corner of Impiltur. The Moonsea is out - I'm not loving a Halfling nation there (and losing Thar and some of those cities with be a MAJOR lore snafu).
Geographically, the southern cost of The vast/Impiltur is perfect. I mean PERFECT. We even have a mountain range just the right shape, size, and orientation where I need it (and the coast on the correct angle). In fact, it would be a no-brainer except for one thing - I'd have to move/lose three cities. Two don't matter so much (just move them over - no big), but I'd have to lose Lyrabar (and a deep, heart-felt moan is heard somewhere off in distant Australia). 
Otherwise, I am talking PERFECT, on all (other) counts - even the 'orc invasions' in the history portion. Come on Impiltur, 'take one for the team'.  (and the moan has now turned to a cry of anguish!)
Elsewhere... by doing some fudging on the Faerūn end, I could get it in an empty peninsula in Sembia, I could really Frankenstein Altumbel (might be our best bet, though), and I could even get it on the north shore of two different lakes (though that would really screw with 5S's history) - The Akanamere is an excellent spot, and it could also go along the north shore of Lake Umbar (over near Thay) with some major fudgery. Both of those placements, however, start to cross a line I've drawn for myself - will gamers actually USE IT there?
The southern coast of Aglarond is certainly doable, but that messes with a lot of the history of the region. I'm also leery about putting the Hin so close to a BBG (which is another reason I avoided the Moonsea).
Lastly, we have the 'bottom' of Turmish, which technically isn't Turmish. There's even a canon halfling settlement nearby. Not really on the SoFS, but on the Vilhon Reach, which means it sorta-is. And the spot is geographically ideal, and almost entirely empty and devoid of lore. Its the 'almost' part that makes me hesitant - Hlondeth is there. Not that we have an enormous amount of lore on Hlondeth, or that its a 'major player' in Faerūnian history, but it is very interesting, and I'd rather not 'mess with it' unless there is no other option (which there may not be). I wouldn't lose it, but I might have to nudge it over (and yet, I was a lot less hesitant to do this over in The Vast and Impiltur... go figure).
Or I could just go back to the Lake of Steam, where I had intended to put it... but I feel like I'd be doing something no one would ever use way down there (and I'd have to move at least one city there as well... but who cares, right?) One of the two placements actually has it encroach on Sespech (and now another scribe here is shaking his hoary fist at me and saying, "Though shall not pass!")
So, everyone's thoughts? Not too many people have chimed-in yet in this thread - I'm hoping that just because its the weekend and/or the holiday season. Although these 'fun maps' are just that, for now, they are part of my greater project to re-map the Realms - they will go into another 'non-canon' adaption layer. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 17 Dec 2016 : 17:07:04
I was doing this as a mental exercise, but I do have rules, even for those, and one of them for this as to 'keep' Returned Abeir, and do so in such a way it will not only be MORE useful than it was in 4e, but also, be something 'doable' in the framework of the Sundering (the 5e 'reset' McGuffin). In others words, I wanted WotC employees to look at it and say, "hhhhmmm... ya know, that ain't half bad...", because I would like the material Ed worked hard on for The Forgotten Realms (the ONLY piece he was allowed to work on in 4e!) to still be in the Realms!
I tried moving it east, but I'd have to lose both Dambrath AND Luiren. So then I resized Halruaa and Dambrath just a tad (not where its noticeable) and not only can I do so without losing Dmabrath, but I can return a good piece of the Western Shaar (Shaareach) to how it was pre-3e, which is great...
Except I STILL lose Luiren, and I also lose most of Estagund (seriously, half the fans out there are probably saying, "Where the hell is Estagund?", so no big). It looks pretty damn cool, though, with the Salt Lake right up against the towering Abeir mounatains. So, how much love IS there for Luiren? Has anyone actually used it in-game?
And carrying this thought-exercise to the next level, what if I made Luiren itself more useful in the process? Or rather, a 'land of halflings' somewhere else, that would be Ed-lore? because you know, The Five Shires would fit PERFECTLY along the Lake of Steam. Hell, I could probably get Karmeikos and Ierendi in there as well (FR is HUGE, and thats really another useless 'dead spot' along the northern coast of the lake of Steam). So long as I am 'saving' Ed-lore thats been cast-adrift due to the changing times, why not save both? And if people still love Luiren so bad, I could work those locales in as well (its no problem - the entirety of the lore is only geography anyway).
What say ye? Is this a wasted effort? I almost feel WotC 'blew it' again, because they restored the Realms to the old way, but did they 'fix it'? There were some stinky spots that could have used a refresher, and they didn't bother. Hell, they could have just said the Halruaans evacuated to Nimbral and people probably would have been satisfied with that (and left the old location available for what I did above).
I wouldn't mind losing Calimshan, and just have Zakhara, but I know most fans would blow a gasket over that one. After all, Drizzt went there in a novel.. |
|
|
