| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Naron |
Posted - 11 Dec 2016 : 12:49:34
After reading a Lovecraftian story, in which the pitiful humans are always helpless against the Old Ones and filled with fear and madness, I have asked myself the question of the title.
Are there things that could terrify even the gods and fill them with an intense fear, anxiety and even madness?
I'm really curious. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 07 Jan 2017 : 17:51:51
The connections and dynamics of the gods, be they the ones mortals worship, or the overgods who don't need to be worshiped (though perhaps some are worshiped, or at least revered, by the other gods, like Ao is?) are complex, the intricacies beyond mortal comprehension, but it is nevertheless fun to speculate and try and piece together. Ao has control over the "Torilian pantheon", even the "immigrant gods" answering to him, though, because they exist in other worlds, too, they likely answer to multiple "Aos". And Ao may answer to someone. As the saying goes, "There is always a bigger fish".
There is likely a set of "uber" deities, like Fate, Chaos, and so on, who do *not* answer to anyone, as they are the powers that ultimately control the universe--or multiverse--and it is up to them to keep each other in check, so to speak. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 07 Jan 2017 : 17:44:40
Fate, The Celestial Emperor, and Maztica were all Overgods - it even says it somewhere in canon. However, after that single mention, that was dropped and every reference to Overgods after that only mentions Ao. Ptah is canonically present in Realmspace, and is said to have lead the other deities (including the Sumerian/Babylonian pantheon{s}) to Realmspace at the bequest of Ao (which, BTW, indicates an actual 'limit' to Ao's power - some sort of "can't interfere directly" rule).
Which is why I came up with an in-between category called 'High Gods', which represent pantheonic leaders - Greater+ Gods that hold full sway over their pantheon/mythos and/or geographic area.
I further theorize that these 'High Gods' are actually Overgods in their own right, but from 'elsewhere' (another crystal Sphere where their pantheon originated from). This is canonically true of the Celestial Emperor (in the lore its says The Celestial Dragon lead his people to Toril from 'elsewhere', which is WHY they are called 'Shou Lung', which means followers of the dragon). Maztica, likewise, speaks of a 'True World' (Abeir?) from whence they came. Nothing like that for Fate, but she may fall into Mystra's category - a greater god that just got so powerful that she is on the 'cusp' of being an Overpower (a demi-Overpower?) Or Fate might just be like the LoP and fall outside of all these categories (perhaps something even greater than Ao... or at least, different). Her portfolio would seem to include prophesy (alternate timelines), and and least one god (Shar) has used prophesy to steer the course of Torillian history to her own ends.
Not sure about 'Chaos' - I personally believe there is some sort of uber-Overgod of pure chaos that dwells at the center of the Far Realms (or IS the Far Realms - the region outside normal space/time is its 'body'), and that all the 'dark (elder evil) gods' we have in D&D are just 'spawn' from that - its 'avatars', if you will (because something that enormously powerful is not allowed to enter the universe because it would instantly destroy it). |
| Gyor |
Posted - 07 Jan 2017 : 15:51:51
AO, Lady of Pain, Ptah, and Chaos, are all Overgods to my Knowledge and I think Fate and The Celestial Emperor might be Overgods as well. Overgods don't like being worshipped. Ptah maybe an exception to that rule.
They scare the crap out of Gods.
Actually what |
| Quale |
Posted - 07 Jan 2017 : 08:24:42
There are creatures called the draeden that are similar to Lovecraft's Old Ones, also the Sleeping Ones in the plane of Ice, and Tharizdun aka the dark god
The Lady of Pain is left as mystery, one theory is that she's an incarnation of all pain in the multiverse, another of the so called group of ''Ancient Brethren'' would be the Serpent who is magic, there are other concepts in Planescape like the source, justice, death, entropy etc., but it's unknown are there beings who embody them, AO's boss could be balance. If you want to include the Mythos, e.g. Yog-Sothoth could be time-space. |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 04 Jan 2017 : 20:45:48
Other than Ao, probably being forgotten, as was mentioned. And not just forgotten in one plane/dimension (such as Toril), bit ALL planes. Erasing the name and knowledge of a god entirely would destroy them, and that would be truly terrifying.
My understanding of Sigil is that it is the "center" of the multiverse, though since the planes are in flux, "center" is relative. It is neutral territory, where no wars are fought and gods are forbidden to enter, but violence is common, considering you have a bunch of different races living in one place (devas and demons tend not to get along). The Lady rarely involves herself directly with the goings-on, but rather has beings known as debas be her eyes and ears. The Lady is not worshiped (refraining from worshiping her is actually one of her edicts). Theories to explain the existence of Sigil range widely, one of the most popular being that the Lady of Pain either keeps it intact or created it--or both.
Since she isn't worshiped, and in fact abhors the idea, I think she is an "other" that exists outside the realms of other god-like beings. She probably can't even be considered "divine". Like many of the extraplanar creatures that are mysterious and defy explanation, to me she is an "other". That's how I would refer to her, anyway. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 23 Dec 2016 : 14:53:00
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Actually, if you think about it, Sigil is basically like the realmspace crystal sphere.... only smaller. Both have portals to pretty much every other plane (and other crystal spheres) out there. Therefore, she's in essence like an overgod like Ao, but she's not supported by any deities. What does this means for her in power level? I can't say. If she is in essence like an overgod, why doesn't she allow in gods? Maybe she's not strong enough to win against them if they turn against her as a group. Maybe she took a shortcut to becoming the "power" that she is, and as a result, she can't control beings with a "deity" template like other "overgods".
However, I think any overgod being challenged on home territory would have a huge field advantage.
Or of course, she may just be a powerful "Primordial" whose elemental basis isn't something physical, but rather emotions.
For me Sigil is part of Outer Planes where Alignments cancel each other so there is no bias. That is why gods cannot enter as any strong alignment influence is repelled from there. It obviously allow weaker planars to visit until a specific power level and Lady is on that treshold. So she might actually be terrified of becoming a god :-)
It has been some time since I read about Sigil so I might have drifted from original.
That doesn't quite fit. The factions of Planescape if anything are very "strong-minded".... if anything, Sigil is one of the most welcoming places for people of powerful "belief" and/or emotion.
I just can't buy her being terrified of being somehow forced to become a god because people worship her. Granted, there can be an argument that belief shapes everything in the outer planes, but I prefer that gods have to accept that mantle, possibly having to seek it, not have it thrust upon them. I can even buy the idea that some gods are born from belief alone.
I can buy that she hates gods.... possibly having fought against some and having had to create Sigil as a means to protect herself from them (i.e. creating home territory). I can even imagine that she herself is now incapable of strong emotion for some reason, and she needs to surround herself with people of strong emotion just to feed off of and keep herself on an even keel. In fact, it might be an interesting story if somehow the Lady of Pain is some kind of "Primordial"/"Archfey"/"Elder Evil"/"Far Realm Entity"/"Vestige escaped from the place where Vestiges go" who is somehow split into two or more pieces. Maybe this piece is made up of nothing but the sheer force of will (or the mind & psyche) of the other entity, but none of its emotion (consciousness and soul) to drive that will, so it depends upon using the surrounding beings to process emotions for her.
Going along these lines... with Velsharoon's ascension to godhood, I'd previously statted him up as a triple classed wizard/binder/dread necromancer with some other prestige classes to build all 3. I'd then stated that the Skull Staff of the Necromancer acts as a Vestige Phylactery and that Velsharoon also had the Phylactery of Mellifleur . Using both of these items, Velsharoon entrapped the vestige of Karsus in the Skull Staff of the Necromancer and used the Phylactery of Mellifleur to contact Mellifleur, both of whom were individuals who used spellcasting rituals to ascend to godhood (one of whom's ritual involved becoming a lich). Velsharoon then used their knowledge (along with some undefined details which may involve other Vestiges such as Balam, an artifact tied to Talos, etc..) to sacrifice himself, embrace lichdom, and become a god all at the same time (and possibly stealing power from Talos, like Mellifleur stole power from Bane).
What's the got to do with the Lady of Pain? What if she was a god/primordial/archfey, etc... who also delved into Binding magic and Vestiges. What if she took on another entity who has somehow affected her and turned her into what she is? What if she is in pain trying to keep this entity in check. I don't know where to take this idea further than this, but it could possibly be interesting. |
| Wrigley |
Posted - 23 Dec 2016 : 09:21:40
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Actually, if you think about it, Sigil is basically like the realmspace crystal sphere.... only smaller. Both have portals to pretty much every other plane (and other crystal spheres) out there. Therefore, she's in essence like an overgod like Ao, but she's not supported by any deities. What does this means for her in power level? I can't say. If she is in essence like an overgod, why doesn't she allow in gods? Maybe she's not strong enough to win against them if they turn against her as a group. Maybe she took a shortcut to becoming the "power" that she is, and as a result, she can't control beings with a "deity" template like other "overgods".
However, I think any overgod being challenged on home territory would have a huge field advantage.
Or of course, she may just be a powerful "Primordial" whose elemental basis isn't something physical, but rather emotions.
For me Sigil is part of Outer Planes where Alignments cancel each other so there is no bias. That is why gods cannot enter as any strong alignment influence is repelled from there. It obviously allow weaker planars to visit until a specific power level and Lady is on that treshold. So she might actually be terrified of becoming a god :-)
It has been some time since I read about Sigil so I might have drifted from original. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 22 Dec 2016 : 22:37:02
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
For Lady of the Pain my thoughts are that she is not a god really as they cannot enter Sigil. She is just under the power limit that is not allowed and that is the reason she punishes worship - it would get her kicked out. So I take her as a demigod.
Actually, if you think about it, Sigil is basically like the realmspace crystal sphere.... only smaller. Both have portals to pretty much every other plane (and other crystal spheres) out there. Therefore, she's in essence like an overgod like Ao, but she's not supported by any deities. What does this means for her in power level? I can't say. If she is in essence like an overgod, why doesn't she allow in gods? Maybe she's not strong enough to win against them if they turn against her as a group. Maybe she took a shortcut to becoming the "power" that she is, and as a result, she can't control beings with a "deity" template like other "overgods".
However, I think any overgod being challenged on home territory would have a huge field advantage.
Or of course, she may just be a powerful "Primordial" whose elemental basis isn't something physical, but rather emotions. |
| Kiaransalyn |
Posted - 22 Dec 2016 : 21:49:20
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
Sune is the Goddess of Love period
Urgh, I read that wrong.
Must.
Wash.
Brain! |
| Kiaransalyn |
Posted - 22 Dec 2016 : 21:46:49
quote:
Originally posted by Naron
After reading a Lovecraftian story, in which the pitiful humans are always helpless against the Old Ones and filled with fear and madness, I have asked myself the question of the title.
Are there things that could terrify even the gods and fill them with an intense fear, anxiety and even madness?
Firstly, anyone who reads Lovecraft deserves praise - excellent form!
As for what could terrify a god. Fear is a consequence of not knowing what might happen. Given that most gods have an ability to see into the future, and have high levels of intelligence, there really shouldn't be much to be afraid of. With such a vast array of powers, I just don't see what could frighten them. Which is why I find stories involving deicide so poor.
Perhaps, possibly, the threat of a more powerful deity, but any deity worthy of that description should have back-up plans for back-up plans for back-up plans.
As for being forgotten, the gods of Asgard, Olympus, Babylon and others are still known to us although only a handful of people still worship them. |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 22 Dec 2016 : 18:32:42
Oh, I think I found another artifact worth mentioning. The Scepter of the Sorcerer Kings wielded by the godless archmages of Imaskar. |
| Wrigley |
Posted - 21 Dec 2016 : 09:44:10
For Lady of the Pain my thoughts are that she is not a god really as they cannot enter Sigil. She is just under the power limit that is not allowed and that is the reason she punishes worship - it would get her kicked out. So I take her as a demigod. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 21 Dec 2016 : 00:41:18
Sigil is smaller than the Realms, Sigil is populated by fewer people than the Realms, and Sigil (almost) entirely lacks the presence of any other powers or deities. A conflict (on "neutral ground") between Ao and the Lady of Pain would probably not favour the Lady. Perhaps overgods are sustained by gods the same way gods are sustained by mortals, and Ao has many more gods than the Lady. And perhaps the Lady is merely a godling or overpowered mortal entirely unopposed in Sigil because she monopolizes the mechanisms of the Cage - she controls all portals, all access, and all keys - she alone has access to the "Multiversal Fulcrum" located within/under Sigil's torus, a place no god can approach not because it's forbidden but because the properties of the cosmos make it impossible - and she sure took a long time to get rid of Sigil's only other known god, Aoskar, when one would expect her to have shredded him apart as promptly and unstoppably as she would any other invader. |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 20 Dec 2016 : 17:50:50
Wooly, I agree rival deities of Lathander don't fear his avatar or clergy. But his wacky revelations and his ability to convince others is rightfully terrifying! He has proven to be able to sway other divines into joining his actions with unforeseen but terrible consequences. Ask Helm (who will point to Murdane's death after the Dawn Cataclysm). Fear of the cosmic failure of someone beyond yourself.
I exclude Cyric because of his inability to work with others or permanently change the pantheon. If he manages to get some elder evils on his side without obliterating himself in the process he might make the cut.
The Lady of Pain on Toril? Wouldn't be likely but she might have a chance, I peg her as one the same level of Ao, but more 'ancient'. I can't imagine how reality altering beings can fight in a win-lose way, though.
|
| Markustay |
Posted - 20 Dec 2016 : 15:55:12
Ao is the most powerful being in Realmspace. LoP is the most power being in Sigil. I think theoretically, on neutral ground, they would be equals, but either would be more powerful than the other on their 'home turf' (Domain). |
| Alexander Clark |
Posted - 20 Dec 2016 : 14:46:31
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
Lady of Pain [i](feared by the Torillian pantheons after she murdered
Isn't Ao more powerful than Lady? At least on Toril. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 20 Dec 2016 : 01:15:51
The overgod Ao was unknown to the Realms in 1E but became a manifest part of Realmslore when he punitively inflicted the Time of Troubles and Avatar Crisis upon all the Faerunian deities (and upon all of Faerun). In the Avatar novel trilogy, Ao communicates with his (overgod) peers and his final communication is a report (that "the Realms have been secured") to another and entirely ambiguous entity (or entities) - perhaps equals, perhaps underlings, but perhaps instead a superior or group of superiors.
Remember that ye olde (circa 1986) D&D Set 5: Immortal Rules are technically "official" D&D canon. Rules which describe ascension through the ranks of immortals and gods, towards entities more powerful than the mightiest deities ever described in any Core (or Realms, Greyhawk, Krynn, etc) setting product. Ao has been described in FR novels, a few overgodly counterparts for other settings have been described (or suggested) throughout various other publications. But no real rules exist for Ao - he obviously outpowers the collective might of all his subordinate gods and goddesses, he appears to have some buddies, he might even have a boss - but he is otherwise incomprehensible to mortals, such entities are simply beyond normal rules. Ao's last report suggests that he might somehow be punished or humiliated (by his peers and/or his "boss") if the Realms were not "secured" - which suggests even an overgod could know fear. The possibilities in fiction are endless, so Ao has been used (sparingly) in FR novels, but such stuff is not the concern of mere mortal gamers playing by merely mortal gaming rules. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 19 Dec 2016 : 19:24:54
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
Kezef the Chaos Hound
I remember back when he was just "Kezef, the Bad Puppy".
 |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 19 Dec 2016 : 17:51:51
I honestly wouldn't think too many deities would be fearful of Lathander, as such... Wary of what he may try, certainly, but not fearful. Being fearful implies that they find him frightening, even when he's clearly not doing anything and just minding his own business. Being wary, though, would be kinda keeping an eye out and not thinking too much about it unless Lathy looks like he's up to something.
Even Cyric, who literally tried to write the other deities out of existence, would be someone more watched than actively feared...
I don't think someone that could be reasonably opposed -- as one deity could reasonably oppose another -- would be something to actively fear. It's only when you get to those you can't reasonably oppose, like Dendar, that there is a reason for fear.
At least, that's my take on it. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 19 Dec 2016 : 16:00:00
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
Even more terrifying, it looks to good, it has to be a trap 
Lol  |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 19 Dec 2016 : 15:09:05
I think we can create a list of beings that have terrified some gods or pantheons.
Thus far mentioned:
AO (feared by all divines)
Lathander (feared for his Divine Procession and Dawn Cataclysm)
Kezef the Hound (feared by Mask)
I think the following can be added (excluding diametricly opposed dieties such as Selune and Shars obvious fears for eachothers plans):
Ityak-Ortheel (feared by the Seldarine)
Pandorym (feared by the Imaskari but meant to deter the Mulhorandi pantheon)
Lady of Pain (feared by the Torillian pantheons after she murdered Aoskar with a mere thought)
Dendar (feared by the World Serpents of the Scaled Ones' pantheon)
Fate (feared by the Zakharan pantheon)
the Celestial One, Emperor of Heaven (feared by all the officials in the Celestial Bureaucracy during New Years Day when they have his audience)
|
| Mirtek |
Posted - 19 Dec 2016 : 13:37:39
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Thrasymachus
If the OP specifically means what terrifies Forgotten Realms Gods…
… an announcement the Wizards is working on a new version on Dungeons & Dragons.
5e was pretty positive for a lot of them, actually.
Even more terrifying, it looks to good, it has to be a trap |
| Irennan |
Posted - 18 Dec 2016 : 21:46:20
quote:
Originally posted by Thrasymachus
If the OP specifically means what terrifies Forgotten Realms Gods…
… an announcement the Wizards is working on a new version on Dungeons & Dragons.
5e was pretty positive for a lot of them, actually. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 18 Dec 2016 : 21:21:10
quote:
Originally posted by Naron
Lovecraft said that the strongest fear is the fear of unknown. Is this also valid for gods?
Not sure about FR, or even Great Wheel/Planescape, but in the Mystara setting (OD&D), there is a level 'beyond godhood' that the gods know almost nothing about and can barely comprehend (like how far the gods - immortals in that setting - are above mere mortals). Most are frightened by the prospect (that anything could possibly consider them inconsequential), but at least one of them worked toward 'apotheosis' toward that tier, and one day, simply disappeared. The other immortals would like to believe it destroyed itself... but you never know.
However, the Immortals of that setting are more akin to demi-powers in the Realms and elsewhere, so that tier 'beyond the gods' could simple be normal D&D gohood, which may be missing from Mystara (all the immortals are ascended mortals). |
| Thrasymachus |
Posted - 18 Dec 2016 : 21:08:02
If the OP specifically means what terrifies Forgotten Realms Gods…
… an announcement the Wizards is working on a new version on Dungeons & Dragons.
|
| moonbeast |
Posted - 15 Dec 2016 : 07:29:31
Losing their worshippers to another deity…. is pretty frightening. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 15 Dec 2016 : 02:25:12
Much remains unknown to D&D gods/goddesses, deities, pantheons, primordials, and powers. None of them are truly omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent. In fact, most of them have limits defined by their lesser positions in divine hierarchies - some are merely ascended mortals, quasi-deity "exarchs" and demi-godlings, or apotheotic entelechs whose "omniscience" barely exceeds that of common peasants.
If fear of the unknown is strongest then even the greatest of gods know fear. |
| Naron |
Posted - 14 Dec 2016 : 23:09:43
Lovecraft said that the strongest fear is the fear of unknown. Is this also valid for gods? |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 13 Dec 2016 : 16:17:14
Several states all sentient beings fear, but gods take take their paranoia for them to a much grander timescale. Isolation, Starvation, Oblivion/Death or Failure (lacking Omniscience over their own domains and portfolios) WON'T be on their super-subconsciousnesses constantly, but could really upset their moods if confronted with the thought/possibility.
'Once mortal' deities AND those that care for their mortal creations could take with them the societal fears of ridicule, rejection and failure. A deity would for example fear blasphemic gossip, heresy by their favorite worshipers and/or the spread of a slanderous myth that shows one of their follies or failed creations. The in-society between the gods of Faerun is largely the same as a social network, with all the chances of getting shamed, rebuffed of bested by your fellows.
The rivalries between and within the Faerunian pantheons would lead to deities fearing failure against their foes. A Grand Crusade that peters out in a miserable trek through a mountain pass, the loss of high level clerical convoys to a mysterious disease, the destruction of their own major cathedrals by a rival deity's warhost would all greatly hurt the reputation and resources of a greater deity, especially if its against a lesser rival god that boasts about the deed.
Also I agree that epic-level artifacts usually can give even a greater god pause. Myrkul might fear the Crown of Horns power to isolate and imprison him, now that he has refound the ambition to rebuild his divine powerbase. |
| Thauramarth |
Posted - 13 Dec 2016 : 09:38:56
Richard Awlinson . Whenever that name appears, gods know bad things will happen to them... |
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