| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Caolin |
Posted - 10 Sep 2015 : 04:00:15
For most of my life I've been reading fantasy that consist of plenty of action and fighting sequences. I never really enjoyed them so much, but I always just assumed that was part of these genres. But then I read the Song of Ice and Fire novels and my eyes are opened to a completely different kind of fantasy narrative. One that I enjoy much better. So it got me wondering, is there anyone else out there who doesn't like the extended action and fight sequences that are a mainstay in Realms novels?
I guess since I went from finishing up a second read through of A Dance with Dragons right into Archmage, there was a pretty stark contrast for me. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| jordanz |
Posted - 03 Oct 2015 : 18:44:10
Depends on the battle. I think the final battle between Szass Tam/ Malar/ Aoth Fezrim's crew/ the Zulkirs set the bar and was amazing in my opinion.
Also loved the battles in The Last Mythal books, especial those involving Malkizid. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 14 Sep 2015 : 23:05:18
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
And don't even get me started on the gods. Somehow all the gods manage to foresee their deaths and plan for them in advance, despite the fact that they are too incompetent to foresee anything else. Is there any logical reason that Bhaal and Leira found their way back, but Moander and Manzecoorian didn't?
My gut feeling tells me that they did too (Moander, at least). Anyway, a god coming back is different from a mortal doing so, because gods usually have tons of contingencies in place to prevent actual death in first place, and even when it happens, as long as they have followers, their consciousness keeps living and the door for their comeback remains open. This is how that side of divinity works in the FR. Ofc, the situation would be much better and less of that would be needed, if WotC hadn't decided that gods can fall like flies, some in extremely cheap ways too.
I agree about mortal characters, though. Even in game, I don't include any resurrection effect, and powerful healing spells are rather costly, and take a toll on the caster, so they're not as common. IMO, if they really wanted to include Resurrection, it should be some sort of miraculous effect, that can be casted only with the consent/assistance of a deity, only for specific reasons, and that requires a heavy investment/preparation in order to be possible. |
| Lilianviaten |
Posted - 14 Sep 2015 : 22:50:09
quote:
Originally posted by Artemas Entreri
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
Off topic slightly, but another part of the novels that bother me is when death is treated as final and no one mentions resurrection as a possibility. A few novels it is handled well (Ed's books they have raised characters like Fzoul even, and I just re-read Black Wolf where a character dies and it is explained that the final wishes of the character are to not be resurrected); but most of the time someone beloved dies and even a rich, powerful character does not even think of resurrection.
In the real world, if a person who died young and tragically died, and resurrection was possible, you can bet and believe the first thought on ANY loved one's mind would be finding a priest capable of casting the spell. It bothers me that authors some authors don't take that "fantasy" aspect into consideration.
Disclaimer, I know the rez spells are mostly an ingame mechanic to bring back player characters who suffer from bad dice rolls, but still, its in the Realms so don't ignore it!
I would imagine resurrection is a tricky thing for Realms authors to deal with. If they abused it then the reader wouldn't really care if a character died because we know they can just magically come back.
I've read other non-Realms books where characters died but ended up coming back later through some form of resurrection. It left a bad taste in my mouth since any loss felt at the character's initial demise was nullified.
Totally agree there. Just off the top of my head, these people have died and come back: all the Companions (even Drizzt I think, has technically died twice), Quenthel Baenre, Yvonnel Baenre, Kimmuriel's mother (sort of), Erevis Cale, Elminster, Rivalen Tanthul, Pharaun Mizzrym (although it was the lamest resurrection ever), and Fzoul Chembryl.
That's why reading the death of Telamont Tanthul and all his sons throughout the Sundering books was hollow. The way Shade went down was epic, but are we really to believe that Shar won't just resurrect them all for some new plot of hers?
And don't even get me started on the gods. Somehow all the gods manage to foresee their deaths and plan for them in advance, despite the fact that they are too incompetent to foresee anything else. Is there any logical reason that Bhaal and Leira found their way back, but Moander and Manzecoorian didn't? |
| Artemas Entreri |
Posted - 14 Sep 2015 : 19:49:57
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
Off topic slightly, but another part of the novels that bother me is when death is treated as final and no one mentions resurrection as a possibility. A few novels it is handled well (Ed's books they have raised characters like Fzoul even, and I just re-read Black Wolf where a character dies and it is explained that the final wishes of the character are to not be resurrected); but most of the time someone beloved dies and even a rich, powerful character does not even think of resurrection.
In the real world, if a person who died young and tragically died, and resurrection was possible, you can bet and believe the first thought on ANY loved one's mind would be finding a priest capable of casting the spell. It bothers me that authors some authors don't take that "fantasy" aspect into consideration.
Disclaimer, I know the rez spells are mostly an ingame mechanic to bring back player characters who suffer from bad dice rolls, but still, its in the Realms so don't ignore it!
I would imagine resurrection is a tricky thing for Realms authors to deal with. If they abused it then the reader wouldn't really care if a character died because we know they can just magically come back.
I've read other non-Realms books where characters died but ended up coming back later through some form of resurrection. It left a bad taste in my mouth since any loss felt at the character's initial demise was nullified. |
| Krafus |
Posted - 14 Sep 2015 : 19:18:25
Given that combat is a large part of Dungeons & Dragons, I can't fault the D&D novel writers for emphasizing it in their books. With that said, some authors are better than others at making battles exciting to read. And another important factor is how much I care about the characters; if the author has failed to make me empathize (if not sympathize) with them prior to a battle, then even good descriptions of combat won't interest me. |
| Seravin |
Posted - 14 Sep 2015 : 19:08:14
Off topic slightly, but another part of the novels that bother me is when death is treated as final and no one mentions resurrection as a possibility. A few novels it is handled well (Ed's books they have raised characters like Fzoul even, and I just re-read Black Wolf where a character dies and it is explained that the final wishes of the character are to not be resurrected); but most of the time someone beloved dies and even a rich, powerful character does not even think of resurrection.
In the real world, if a person who died young and tragically died, and resurrection was possible, you can bet and believe the first thought on ANY loved one's mind would be finding a priest capable of casting the spell. It bothers me that authors some authors don't take that "fantasy" aspect into consideration.
Disclaimer, I know the rez spells are mostly an ingame mechanic to bring back player characters who suffer from bad dice rolls, but still, its in the Realms so don't ignore it! |
| Artemas Entreri |
Posted - 14 Sep 2015 : 13:09:07
quote:
Originally posted by VikingLegion
quote:
Originally posted by Artemas Entreri
Clearly you misunderstood my use of the word personal. I meant that RAS fans feel like they (the reader) are being attacked for standing up for him. It's not like I came over to your house and tore your Drizzt poster in half, though that might have gotten just as much of a reaction out of you.
I can't be the only one that thinks you have chosen an odd user handle for someone with such clear disdain for his work?
I never said I disdained RAS's work. His work is flawed, as are all authors, but some just make it easier to spot for your everyday reader.
Obviously I enjoy his work enough to make one of his characters part of my avatar's name. |
| VikingLegion |
Posted - 14 Sep 2015 : 05:47:54
quote:
Originally posted by Artemas Entreri
Clearly you misunderstood my use of the word personal. I meant that RAS fans feel like they (the reader) are being attacked for standing up for him. It's not like I came over to your house and tore your Drizzt poster in half, though that might have gotten just as much of a reaction out of you.
I can't be the only one that thinks you have chosen an odd user handle for someone with such clear disdain for his work? |
| Artemas Entreri |
Posted - 12 Sep 2015 : 21:30:40
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
quote:
Originally posted by Artemas Entreri
RAS is not a saint, he's a writer. As such he is open to criticism just like any other writer. So why is it that his fans seem to take any RAS criticism personally? Get over it. I can't think of another author whose fans seem to be like this.
Because this scroll wasn't opened to ask about RAS. It was opened to ask about fighting scenes, in general.
Then you had to go and make it personal, by focusing on him(which the OP Caolin never did).
Clearly you misunderstood my use of the word personal. I meant that RAS fans feel like they (the reader) are being attacked for standing up for him. It's not like I came over to your house and tore your Drizzt poster in half, though that might have gotten just as much of a reaction out of you. |
| Caolin |
Posted - 12 Sep 2015 : 19:39:01
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
I don't remember saying that I hate reading about the Realms. I read RAS because I've been reading Realms novels since Darkwalker on Moonshae
No one ever accused you of hating reading about the Realms, Caolin. 
quote:
And who is "bitching"?
See above. "Cheetos" and "easy to see writers who shine above others"--in a scroll about fighting scenes--should answer your question quite thoroughly.
[quote]I don't like fight/action sequences in my literature and I was curious if anyone felt the same way. Ya know, starting a discussion on a discussion forum?
And there's nothing wrong with any of that.
That's why I didn't direct any ire your way, Caolin. It was directed completely elsewhere. 
It's all good. Lack of context + internet == disaster.  |
| BEAST |
Posted - 12 Sep 2015 : 18:42:50
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I was once reading a fight scene, and there was part of it that simply didn't make sense... I actually recreated the scene, using GI Joe figures, and it still didn't make sense. I don't recall the exact issue, but it was something like someone trying to stab someone in the chest and then somehow being behind him.
Maybe more bad editing than bad writing? Did the line(s) about one character moving behind the other get dropped?
Are you sure you're not thinking about "WOTSQ"? There seem to have been a lot of those kinds of snafus in there. |
| BEAST |
Posted - 12 Sep 2015 : 18:40:30
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
I kinda feel you on that one, but not all the way. Does that make it harder for you to enjoy characters like Ambergris, Kane, Jarlaxle, etc. who are clearly melee fighters, but use a lot of magic in their attacks?
A little bit, yeah. I start viewing those half-magic guys (and gal) more like the comic book characters of the Realms, whereas these impossibly successful mere-melee guys (and gal) come off more like relatable RW people.
Yes, I know how funny that sounds, since it's still all fantasy.  |
| BEAST |
Posted - 12 Sep 2015 : 18:34:37
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
However I kind of doubt that people here believe that it is possible to make -say- fireballs appear out of nowhere while chanting some weird words, that's why it's called fantasy. Just saying...
Granted.
But my personal disbelief of magic is so deepseated that it interferes with my ability to be entertained by its inclusion in stories. I just get through it, rather than truly having fun with it, most of the time. (It's similar to how I read RW religious texts: I slog through or skim over all the supernaturalism just to try to get to the "good" stuff that actually has real relevance to me.)
Mundane melee, OTOH, is usually (but not always) very much grounded in reality, so it passes through my BS meter a lot more easily. Oh-so-convenient twists of ankles in the right direction (read: rolls of the die) still take some measure of suspension of disbelief and willing credulity, but still, much less so than magic does.
So that's why fight scenes usually work very well for and are well received by me. |
| BEAST |
Posted - 12 Sep 2015 : 18:24:26
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
I don't remember saying that I hate reading about the Realms. I read RAS because I've been reading Realms novels since Darkwalker on Moonshae
No one ever accused you of hating reading about the Realms, Caolin.
quote:
And who is "bitching"?
See above. "Cheetos" and "easy to see writers who shine above others"--in a scroll about fighting scenes--should answer your question quite thoroughly.
[quote]I don't like fight/action sequences in my literature and I was curious if anyone felt the same way. Ya know, starting a discussion on a discussion forum?
And there's nothing wrong with any of that.
That's why I didn't direct any ire your way, Caolin. It was directed completely elsewhere. |
| BEAST |
Posted - 12 Sep 2015 : 18:19:35
quote:
Originally posted by Artemas Entreri
RAS is not a saint, he's a writer. As such he is open to criticism just like any other writer. So why is it that his fans seem to take any RAS criticism personally? Get over it. I can't think of another author whose fans seem to be like this.
Because this scroll wasn't opened to ask about RAS. It was opened to ask about fighting scenes, in general.
Then you had to go and make it personal, by focusing on him(which the OP Caolin never did).
It's not that I think Bob's a saint. I think I've made my own POV clear here at the Keep that even I get frustrated with some aspects of his writing from time to time. So please don't go there. Straw man fallacy.
But that being said, as a longtime diehard fan of his, of course I feel attached to his stories. The Crystal Shard was my gateway into the Realms, and my entire view of them is colored by his way of telling tales. I owe my fandom of this world to him more than to any other writer--for better or for worse; warts and all; the good, the bad, and the ugly; etc. And there are tons more people in exactly the same boat. I would reckon that his writing has probably done more to bring about awareness of the Realms than that of any other writer. You can dislike it for this or that technical literary or personal aesthetic reason, but you can't change history: Bob is the Realms for a whole lot of us fans.
So that is why it irked me that you felt the need to insert your offhanded shots at him in this scroll when it was completely unnecessary. Why is it that his critics have to go and insert their criticisms and condescending comments where they don't belong?
RAS is the big gun in Realms fiction, whether you like it or not. He has been a huge part of it since the earliest days of its published life. To slash at him like you do feels, to me, like slashing at the very Realms themselves. No, not like bashing Ed would obviously be. But still, it feels a lot like that. So the man doesn't need to be a saint to warrant being afforded more respect than what you give him. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 11 Sep 2015 : 19:57:57
Simmer down, folks. |
| Caolin |
Posted - 11 Sep 2015 : 19:26:31
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
Bah, wise dwarf once say, "Quit yer bitching!"
Why continue to read RAS's stuff if you're so dissatisfied with it? What I see are some gluttons for punishment. Are you sure you're not really just converts to the cult of Ilmater?
I don't remember saying that I hate reading about the Realms. I read RAS because I've been reading Realms novels since Darkwalker on Moonshae And who is "bitching"? I don't like fight/action sequences in my literature and I was curious if anyone felt the same way. Ya know, starting a discussion on a discussion forum? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 11 Sep 2015 : 19:00:06
I was once reading a fight scene, and there was part of it that simply didn't make sense... I actually recreated the scene, using GI Joe figures, and it still didn't make sense. I don't recall the exact issue, but it was something like someone trying to stab someone in the chest and then somehow being behind him. |
| Aulduron |
Posted - 11 Sep 2015 : 18:40:20
I haven't read Song of Fire and Ice so I can't comment on that. I like the fight scenes, if I can picture it Sometimes I can Follow RAS fights, and I love them. Sometimes I can't follow them. One of my all time favorite fights was Enteri vs a battle mage trying to assassinate him.
Robert Jordan was different. Instead of detailing each blow, he described different sword forms such as Parting the Slik, Sheathing the Sword, Boar Rushes Downhill...etc, while the hero was training, then used them during fight scenes. |
| Lilianviaten |
Posted - 11 Sep 2015 : 16:31:28
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
Bah, wise dwarf once say, "Quit yer bitching!"
Why continue to read RAS's stuff if you're so dissatisfied with it? What I see are some gluttons for punishment. Are you sure you're not really just converts to the cult of Ilmater?
While I certainly love the GOT TV show, I was barely able to slog through the first 100 pages of the first book. His books are longer and more complex, obviously, and of course much more consistently serious, but that first one didn't strike me as demonstrating any better writing.
I suppose that one day I will finally get around to sitting down and really committing to reading GRRM with the welcoming, open mind that his stuff requires. But I just don't have the time or energy or brain cells left over after long days at work to tackle 1000-page medieval melodramas.
That's similar to why I don't play D&D, I guess. I settle for easy-in, easy-out de-stresser games to pass what little free time that I have. I just don't have it in me to make my fun time feel like work, when my work already feels like work enough as it is.
I don't believe in magic--in fact, I thoroughly disbelieve in it--so it's very hard for me to wrap my head around it in entertainment. I find myself rolling my eyes and zipping through it much like the way some of you have described in your reaction to detailed fight scenes.
But visceral, physical, virtually palpable melee, OTOH, really gets through to me. I can easily visualize the action, and even live vicariously through the characters as they take their swings and maneuvers. It doesn't take nearly as much of a stretch of my imagination or suspension of disbelief, either. It just plain works, as is.
Maybe it's somewhat akin to that film Fight Club?
As RAS wrote of Zaknafein, I prefer the steel of a fighter's sword to the crystal of a mage's rod.
I kinda feel you on that one, but not all the way. Does that make it harder for you to enjoy characters like Ambergris, Kane, Jarlaxle, etc. who are clearly melee fighters, but use a lot of magic in their attacks? |
| Lilianviaten |
Posted - 11 Sep 2015 : 16:25:14
quote:
Originally posted by Artemas Entreri
RAS is not a saint, he's a writer. As such he is open to criticism just like any other writer. So why is it that his fans seem to take any RAS criticism personally? Get over it. I can't think of another author whose fans seem to be like this.
I'm quite certain you can, if you try hard enough. The fans of every popular writer are this way. Stephen King, Dean Koontz, J.K. Rowling, Stephanie Meyer, James Patterson, George Martin, etc. Go online and critique any of those writers, and you'll get way more hate than you've ever received criticizing RAS. I'm not saying it's right, but people get really passionate about writers who they feel have had a big impact on their lives. And not just writers. That goes for people's favorite musicians, actors, athletes, etc. Candlekeep is one of the tamest sites I've ever been on (good job Mods!). |
| Irennan |
Posted - 11 Sep 2015 : 14:53:20
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
I don't believe in magic--in fact, I thoroughly disbelieve in it--so it's very hard for me to wrap my head around it in entertainment. I find myself rolling my eyes and zipping through it
People obviously have different preferences, and that's a good thing. However I kind of doubt that people here believe that it is possible to make -say- fireballs appear out of nowhere while chanting some weird words, that's why it's called fantasy. Just saying... |
| Artemas Entreri |
Posted - 11 Sep 2015 : 14:49:34
RAS is not a saint, he's a writer. As such he is open to criticism just like any other writer. So why is it that his fans seem to take any RAS criticism personally? Get over it. I can't think of another author whose fans seem to be like this. |
| BEAST |
Posted - 11 Sep 2015 : 05:02:37
Bah, wise dwarf once say, "Quit yer bitching!"
Why continue to read RAS's stuff if you're so dissatisfied with it? What I see are some gluttons for punishment. Are you sure you're not really just converts to the cult of Ilmater?
While I certainly love the GOT TV show, I was barely able to slog through the first 100 pages of the first book. His books are longer and more complex, obviously, and of course much more consistently serious, but that first one didn't strike me as demonstrating any better writing.
I suppose that one day I will finally get around to sitting down and really committing to reading GRRM with the welcoming, open mind that his stuff requires. But I just don't have the time or energy or brain cells left over after long days at work to tackle 1000-page medieval melodramas.
That's similar to why I don't play D&D, I guess. I settle for easy-in, easy-out de-stresser games to pass what little free time that I have. I just don't have it in me to make my fun time feel like work, when my work already feels like work enough as it is.
I don't believe in magic--in fact, I thoroughly disbelieve in it--so it's very hard for me to wrap my head around it in entertainment. I find myself rolling my eyes and zipping through it much like the way some of you have described in your reaction to detailed fight scenes.
But visceral, physical, virtually palpable melee, OTOH, really gets through to me. I can easily visualize the action, and even live vicariously through the characters as they take their swings and maneuvers. It doesn't take nearly as much of a stretch of my imagination or suspension of disbelief, either. It just plain works, as is.
Maybe it's somewhat akin to that film Fight Club?
As RAS wrote of Zaknafein, I prefer the steel of a fighter's sword to the crystal of a mage's rod. |
| Artemas Entreri |
Posted - 11 Sep 2015 : 03:33:20
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
quote:
Originally posted by Artemas Entreri
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
I guess since I went from finishing up a second read through of A Dance with Dragons right into Archmage, there was a pretty stark contrast for me.
This is like eating a filet mignon and then having a follow-up snack of cheetos.
Haha! True story. Although it's probably a bit unfair to compare a book written within a year and a book that took 6 years to write.
Yeah but sometimes it's easy to spot writers who shine above others. |
| Caolin |
Posted - 11 Sep 2015 : 02:50:52
quote:
Originally posted by Artemas Entreri
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
I guess since I went from finishing up a second read through of A Dance with Dragons right into Archmage, there was a pretty stark contrast for me.
This is like eating a filet mignon and then having a follow-up snack of cheetos.
Haha! True story. Although it's probably a bit unfair to compare a book written within a year and a book that took 6 years to write. |
| Lilianviaten |
Posted - 10 Sep 2015 : 21:35:39
quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas
I've always felt that the melee fight scenes in RAS' books go on for far too long. Though, that's really the only FR author that I feel makes battle scenes too long.
On the other hand, I also hate it when authors skip fight scenes entirely. The Rose of Sarifal is a good example of this. If I remember correctly there were fight scenes that went like this: Character A engages in a fight, perspective goes to character B, then goes back to character A and the fight is already done.
I love those long, detailed fight scenes, but I think there's a reason for that. Most of his main characters, and even secondary characters, are melee fighters (Drizzt, Bruenor, Wulfgar, current Regis, pre-injury Catti, Jarlaxle, Artemis, Athrogate, etc.).
So it makes sense for him to spend a lot of time on combat. My personal favorite in recent books has been Dahlia. She's got a weapon that can do a lot of different things, and it was fun to read about her in battle. |
| Lilianviaten |
Posted - 10 Sep 2015 : 21:23:16
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
Something we get far too few of in Realms novels is extended wizard / priest /psionic battles. While I totally skip the fight scenes that go on and on with swords and shields (especially two humanoids going at it, snoresville for me, I do like a monster versus human fight though); I'll love the details of a magic battle and hope they go on a long while.
Like Wooly, doesn't matter what the setting is, a "he dodged the blow and rollled away, then made a stab, then ran behind a bush, then XYZ" that goes on for thirteen pages I skip to the resolution. I recognize some people like it though.
I love ALL fight scenes, but I totally agree with you here. That was what I found so heartbreaking about The Herald. We finally get to see 4 of Faerun's greatest archwizards duke it out, and it's all anti-climactic.
First, Larloch, essentially 1 shots all the Shadovar. Then Telamont goes and powers himself up with a bunch of artifacts, only to get one-shotted by Elminster. Then Larloch tries to take over the Weave, but ends up getting one-shotted by the Srinshee.
Good magical battles are lacking in most novels. |
| Tanthalas |
Posted - 10 Sep 2015 : 19:16:36
I've always felt that the melee fight scenes in RAS' books go on for far too long. Though, that's really the only FR author that I feel makes battle scenes too long.
On the other hand, I also hate it when authors skip fight scenes entirely. The Rose of Sarifal is a good example of this. If I remember correctly there were fight scenes that went like this: Character A engages in a fight, perspective goes to character B, then goes back to character A and the fight is already done. |
| Artemas Entreri |
Posted - 10 Sep 2015 : 15:55:09
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
I guess since I went from finishing up a second read through of A Dance with Dragons right into Archmage, there was a pretty stark contrast for me.
This is like eating a filet mignon and then having a follow-up snack of cheetos. |
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