| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Shadowsoul |
Posted - 04 Sep 2015 : 00:36:05
I'm not really sure if it's just me but whenever I am reading any of RAS's new books, I find the words he uses to be too......modern.
It really feels like when Drizzt is speaking, it's like speaking with someone on the bus instead of a drow elf from a magical medieval type of land.
I hope I'm making sense here because it's really difficult to explain. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 07 Sep 2015 : 18:46:50
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Also, remember this:
He's writing for a modern audience.
"Modern audience" does not equal "autistic redditors with dictionary size 1/10 of what anyone their age used to have 20 years ago and OMGALLCAPS". I know... surprising.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I've never had problems with the modern lingo, because I agree with what Ashe Ravenheart said above (and so many folks have trouble wrapping their minds around).
Let's be fair. It's always hard to wrap mind around a clown car - too many bits stick out.
quote:
The stories are being told to US; would you prefer RAS write in Thorass?
Which word you have trouble typing using Latin alphabet?
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The original, 1E Unearthed Arcana, as I recall, with its list of polearms.
...which was the running gag in itself. Yup.
In 3e, this place probably takes the list of critters descended from dragons.
quote:
Any shared universe has its naming structures, and deviating from that draws attention to itself, often to the detriment of the story.
Yup. And sometimes the authors are simply daft or lazy (screaming "Fire!" to ballista crews, archers, and underwater crossbowmen).
Or just fail to give a bat guano (the infamous crystal yo-yo).
All is good in its season and place. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 07 Sep 2015 : 17:03:54
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
As far as the criticism about "batteries" and what-not, I seem to remember a huge illustration of all sorts of medieval bladed weapons in a sourcebook that used all sorts of RW names. Easily half of those names were unfamiliar to me, but the context of the explanations showed me that every single one of them was a RW historical weapon, with a matching RW historical name.
The original, 1E Unearthed Arcana, as I recall, with its list of polearms.
I think that the complaints about some names not being Realmsian is a valid one. Any shared universe has its naming structures, and deviating from that draws attention to itself, often to the detriment of the story. I'd have the same complaint about a Jedi named Bob Smith. |
| BEAST |
Posted - 07 Sep 2015 : 06:29:01
As far as the criticism about "batteries" and what-not, I seem to remember a huge illustration of all sorts of medieval bladed weapons in a sourcebook that used all sorts of RW names. Easily half of those names were unfamiliar to me, but the context of the explanations showed me that every single one of them was a RW historical weapon, with a matching RW historical name.
And that shocked me. The notion that a sourcebook writer would so obviously try to insert such blatantly RW, historical, and obscure details (and words) into make-believe fantasy stories and games seemed like a stretch.
But all the mentions of Greek gods and Greek classical monsters and other familiar elements from all sorts of other RW circles reminded me that that particular weapon chart was hardly the sole example of this. D&D, and FR by extension, is a hodgepodge of stuff being borrowed from the RW, seasoned with made-up stuff here and there. And guess what. So was Tolkien's Middle-Earth.
If you get jarred out of your reading enjoyment by silly names like "Fumblefutz McStompalot", then I'm totally with you. (No, Bob, that was not a suggestion for your next novel.)
And if you are irritated by Drizzt coming off as a weird paladin even though he's still agnostic, or by his melodramatic prose in journal entries, then fine. To each their own.
But I will never understand people taking exception to RAS's gratuitous use of a hodgepodge of names or story elements, when D&D and FR (and TLOTR, for that matter) are all just literary stews in their own rights.
That being said, MT, once Ed shared with us here at the Keep that Mithral Hall would probably actually be known by its Dwarven name of "Himral Uldoun", in my mind I have always just substituted that every time Bob has written "Mithral Hall". So I'm with you there.
This is much like Drizzt telling us that the ancient family name of House Do'Urden was "D'aermon N'a'shezbaernon". Ancient names mean something to Realmsians. Words matter to them, and not just to us.
So Bob's editors really should insist on bringing some more of a signature Realms feel into his stories from time to time, at least with the word choice. It would help a little. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 06 Sep 2015 : 18:16:17
I didn't say I didn't like RW names being used (so long as their slightly modified to look more 'Realmsy') - I've done it myself, in my one-and-only CKC article (which I would love to go back and fix someday, in hindsight).
What I meant was that he creates incredibly silly names using RW words, like 'Bouldershoulder'. He wants 'Bouldershoulder' thats fine - just give it to us in DWARVISH. Why would a pair of FR dwarves be walking around the Realms with a name in modern English?
I reiterate: Names do NOT get translated. I know at least two women named 'Blanca', but I don't call them 'white'. That would be assinine. The rest of the writing can be in RW modern English (or whatever), because WE are reading it, but not the names. I have always felt strongly that it breaks the fourth wall.
There are always exceptions, as well. As for 'modern wordage', even Ed winced at 'Harper Troopers' (IIRC). |
| sno4wy |
Posted - 06 Sep 2015 : 16:39:16
Tanthalas, why are you so defensive on behalf of RAS? No one said that the reason that RAS' is good/bad/silly/whatever adjective you want because of the diction that he uses. The topic of this post is whether anyone else feels that his choice of words feel off. If you don't agree, that's fine, but what are you seeking to gain by telling everyone else that don't agree with you that their opinions are invalid and that their viewpoints are silly?
I used to be friends with someone until I found out that she was attacking people because she felt that their perspective that women should be represented as well as men are in D&D is silly. What you're doing in this thread is no different from that. You're dismissing everyone else's perspectives while expecting everyone to accept yours. I hope you realize how that doesn't work.
The original poster simply wanted to reach out and see if anyone else felt the same way that he does. You've taken this as a chance to attack everyone else who do not agree with you. You might say something like, "To each his own", but in reality that's a crock of dung, because you're actively picking on people who dare to express an opinion that's different from yours. |
| Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 06 Sep 2015 : 13:12:42
Okay, now I'm sorry about my earlier post.
1) I don't mind if people are critical when they read. But, these books have already passed through countless editors/proofreaders/etc. and both the company paying RAS aren't asking him to change and the people buying him still keep him on the NYT Bestsellers list. I have problems reading Asimov and Bradbury. I love their stories, I know their stories are important to Sci-Fi, but I don't like the language they use to tell them. Should those books be considered "less" because I don't like the old (white) 1950's vernacular they use to tell their stories?
2) If the problem is so great that it takes you out of the story, and you're not enjoying the story, then don't buy the book. I lost interest in Nicholas Cage movies after seeing Drive Angry. I can now say for sure that, even if he does a completely astounding act in an awesome movie, I don't think I'll go see it because he's left such a bad taste in my mouth. So, I may lose out on a terrific movie at some point, but it's my choice. |
| Tanthalas |
Posted - 06 Sep 2015 : 12:13:41
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
Ah, okay. So RAS is above criticism. And if people do dare to send some his way, they get attacked for being "unreasonable" and "petty" and even silly and jealous.
Super glad you could clear that up.
Lol, and on the other side of the spectrum, your criticisms are beyond reproach apparently.
I do have criticisms concerning RAS work, mainly that I think he keeps recycling plot points, but the names that he uses? And implying that they're not "realmsian"? Yeah, that's a silly complaint.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
It makes absolutely no sense that they would have a name in an Earth language.
Really? Why? In a setting that uses versions of gods from real world mythology and cultures inspired by real world settings why is it such a big no-no for authors to use names with roots from languages other than English? Or even using common English names like Jack?
quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy
To not, to me, seems unhealthy, willfully ignorant and borderline obsessive.
To each his own I guess. To me, nitpicking names like my friend did is what I'd call borderline obsessive. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 06 Sep 2015 : 01:52:41
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
"I like this quality in Ed's writing, I wish other authors did it also."
My view exactly.
-- George Krashos |
| sno4wy |
Posted - 05 Sep 2015 : 22:56:03
Now that I've had some time to pry my palm off of my face, I wanted to clarify something.
When I read something, I do so critically. It's just how I approach any kind of literature. I'm torn on how I feel about the Drizzt books. There are certainly aspects that I like, but there are other aspects that irritate me. I don't think that feeling this way is unreasonable, and if anything, I'd feel wary of authors who want their readers to embrace their writing through and through. I believe that people with that sort of mindset should consider leading a cult of zealots rather than be a creator of literature.
I'm passionate about the Forgotten Realms. That includes the content of Bob's books. If someone's going to judge me because I'm not going to blindly embrace something that's presented to me, because I'll always criticize some elements while praising others, then I really don't think the problem is with me. As thinking and reasoning individuals, I feel that it's only natural for us to have different reactions to different elements of anything. To not, to me, seems unhealthy, willfully ignorant and borderline obsessive. |
| Eltheron |
Posted - 05 Sep 2015 : 22:34:50
Yeesh. 
|
| Markustay |
Posted - 05 Sep 2015 : 22:04:18
quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas
Actually, my point is that both my friend and people complaining here about RAS' choice of names are being unreasonable and petty.
I've seen these arguments pop several times already, and it always sounds more like people resent RAS's success so they'll pick on any silly thing. RAS has published over 30 books in the Realms, he's one of the setting's most profilic authors so the argument that the names he uses are "not realmsian" is borderline silly.
And despite my constant criticism with him (starting around his 4th FR novel or so), I have been the #1 supporter/endorser of the D&D movie to be about Drizzt.
What we want and what the Realms needs are two different animals. I don't have to like something to know its the right choice.
I am about to give the single greatest compliment I have every given any author - I have read EVERY RAS novel set in the Realms (or plan to, for a couple of newer ones), which I cannot say for any other FR author - including ED - because despite all his writing flaws, I enjoy his novels. He writes so goddamn well that I enjoy reading about Drizzt, even though I do NOT like Drizzt himself. It doesn't really get much better then that.
Is it perfect? No... far from it. But I enjoy it, and enjoyment is why I read.
|
| Lilianviaten |
Posted - 05 Sep 2015 : 21:59:13
Markustay, I would also recommend Kemp's work in Star Wars. I would also recommend Salvatore's trilogy called "The Chronicles of Ynis Aielle". It's a fantasy setting that is magic heavy, like FR, but the way he writes mages is so different in those books. I really enjoyed them, but would not have guessed from the style that it was Salvatore. I've heard his Demonwars books are good too, but I can't vouch for those, because I haven't read them. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 05 Sep 2015 : 21:54:07
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I've never had problems with the modern lingo, because I agree with what Ashe Ravenheart said above (and so many folks have trouble wrapping their minds around).
"Trouble wrapping their minds around"? What an unfriendly, and uncivil statement to make.
I'm from New York - that IS a New Yorker being pleasant-as-pie. 
It takes us a LOT of self-control not to rage 24/7... i think Bruce banner must have been a NYer.
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
What exactly is so wrong with people just sharing an opinion? It's a fairly MILD critical opinion at that, and obviously not one that has hindered any of his sales.
There is nothing wrong with it. Maybe I've been here too long (please tell me if that is the case), because I've seen this and very similar questions come up time-and-again. You should have been here when they used the letter 'K' for Karsus' emblem in some story.
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
Also, isn't it rather obvious that authors write for modern audiences? Is there any other audience that they could write for? I'm part of that modern audience (after all, I'm not a centuries old vampire or immortal from a previous age), and I just think it'd be nice to actually see a little more immersion from RAS - because I enjoy the trend that Ed came up with, which is throwing in a few Realmsian words every now and then.
I absolutely love that. I hope you don't think I am a 'RAS fanboi'. Quite the opposite, really. I am highly critical of him (and his constant twisting of canon).
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
How about trying to see this not as a mean-spirited personal attack of RAS but instead as "I like this quality in Ed's writing, I wish other authors did it also."
Wow... you are either the most tense person I've never met, or you just enjoy picking fights. As I said above, I'm from NY... we invented Trolls*. We live our lives that way. We also have extremely thick skins. You couldn't survive here without those things.
But enough about me...
I enjoy Ed's writing. I enjoy Salvatore's writing. I enjoy BOTH for very different reasons. BOTH have their strong points and their weak points, but thats okay, because I am a REALMS fan first and foremost, and I read what they write for The Realms. I've only very recently read something by Ed that wasn't FR, and I have NEVER read anything non-FR by RAS. I am not a fan of authors, I am a fan of settings.
I will even go outside my 'genre comfort zone' for a great setting, authors be damned.
There is only one FR author I enjoyed enough to try a work by him in another setting, and that was Paul Kemp. I enjoyed the book, but didn't bother with the second, because I was looking for more about the setting itself, which I wasn't getting. That doesn't take from the novel itself (The Hammer & The Blade) - it was very good - it just wasn't what I look for when I read.
Now, if you want to read a truly perfect novel, you'll just have to wait until I write one. 
Cheers
*Not the Scandinavian kind, the modern kind.  |
| Caladan Brood |
Posted - 05 Sep 2015 : 20:52:47
I find R.A. Salvatore to be one of the worst writers I've read. I have not managed to finish ONE book he's written. Fortunately I discovered I could get the gist of his tales about Drizzt by reading comics :)
Because, unlike a lot of people (apparently), I *do* think Drizzt is an interesting character.
|
| Shadowsoul |
Posted - 05 Sep 2015 : 20:46:57
For me, whenever I read the monologues at the beginning of each chapter it sounds like Drizzt was educated at a university. |
| sno4wy |
Posted - 05 Sep 2015 : 20:37:20
quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas
Actually, my point is that both my friend and people complaining here about RAS' choice of names are being unreasonable and petty.
I've seen these arguments pop several times already, and it always sounds more like people resent RAS's success so they'll pick on any silly thing. RAS has published over 30 books in the Realms, he's one of the setting's most profilic authors so the argument that the names he uses are "not realmsian" is borderline silly.
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| Eltheron |
Posted - 05 Sep 2015 : 19:27:51
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I've never had problems with the modern lingo, because I agree with what Ashe Ravenheart said above (and so many folks have trouble wrapping their minds around).
"Trouble wrapping their minds around"? What an unfriendly, and uncivil statement to make.
What exactly is so wrong with people just sharing an opinion? It's a fairly MILD critical opinion at that, and obviously not one that has hindered any of his sales.
Also, isn't it rather obvious that authors write for modern audiences? Is there any other audience that they could write for? I'm part of that modern audience (after all, I'm not a centuries old vampire or immortal from a previous age), and I just think it'd be nice to actually see a little more immersion from RAS - because I enjoy the trend that Ed came up with, which is throwing in a few Realmsian words every now and then.
Otherwise it's core and generic. Which is fine, it's just different.
How about trying to see this not as a mean-spirited personal attack of RAS but instead as "I like this quality in Ed's writing, I wish other authors did it also."
|
| Markustay |
Posted - 05 Sep 2015 : 18:41:49
I've never had problems with the modern lingo, because I agree with what Ashe Ravenheart said above (and so many folks have trouble wrapping their minds around). The stories are being told to US; would you prefer RAS write in Thorass? That might be 'cute', but I don't think he'd sell too many books like that.
His names, however, should NOT be using modern English or any other real-world language for that matter. Names do not change upon translation, and he wants to name someone 'Cookpot Lampshadehead' thats fine... but translate it into those words in their own language. It makes absolutely no sense that they would have a name in an Earth language.
That goes for locales as well... I'm looking at YOU, Baffenberg.  |
| Eltheron |
Posted - 05 Sep 2015 : 18:33:37
quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas
quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy
Before you draw parallels between the reasonable people here and your, by your account, unreasonable friend, make sure that you have a solid foot to stand on.
Actually, my point is that both my friend and people complaining here about RAS' choice of names are being unreasonable and petty.
I've seen these arguments pop several times already, and it always sounds more like people resent RAS's success so they'll pick on any silly thing. RAS has published over 30 books in the Realms, he's one of the setting's most profilic authors so the argument that the names he uses are "not realmsian" is borderline silly.
Ah, okay. So RAS is above criticism. And if people do dare to send some his way, they get attacked for being "unreasonable" and "petty" and even silly and jealous.
Super glad you could clear that up.
|
| Tanthalas |
Posted - 05 Sep 2015 : 18:16:40
quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy
Before you draw parallels between the reasonable people here and your, by your account, unreasonable friend, make sure that you have a solid foot to stand on.
Actually, my point is that both my friend and people complaining here about RAS' choice of names are being unreasonable and petty.
I've seen these arguments pop several times already, and it always sounds more like people resent RAS's success so they'll pick on any silly thing. RAS has published over 30 books in the Realms, he's one of the setting's most profilic authors so the argument that the names he uses are "not realmsian" is borderline silly. |
| Cards77 |
Posted - 05 Sep 2015 : 17:39:53
Um Ed does. So do others. |
| Cyrinishad |
Posted - 05 Sep 2015 : 17:36:36
...Circling back to Shadowsoul's original post...
It's definitely not just you, Shadowsoul. This is something where we're definitely on the same page. I didn't even think that the early Driz'zt books seemed to maintain an authentic verbal aesthetic. But, fact is I'm not even sure if any of the Realms-Novels by any of the authors have gone out of their way to try and use "Realms" vocabulary...
Maybe that's a good question for discussion. Are there authors that consistently use "Realms" vocabulary? Or have created more "Realms" vocabulary through their novels?
I don't think getting hung up on a word-by-word critique, of an authors published works will lead to a productive discussion... So, I'll just say that there really are many, many "Realmsian" vocabulary terms that have been established. If characters use "Realms" vocabulary in their conversations, and authors add to the "Realms" dictionary of words, it would definitely add to a readers sense of immersion and satisfaction in the fictional world.
|
| Cards77 |
Posted - 05 Sep 2015 : 16:05:17
we can all agree it's just a symptom of the larger problem. A word by word validation isn't necessary from the linguists. |
| sno4wy |
Posted - 05 Sep 2015 : 16:02:37
quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas
You know, this reminds me of a friend of mine that used to hound the online forums of a young Portuguese writer who was getting his first high-fantasy books out.
The author made the mistake of saying that he based his world on a certain real-life historic period and region, so my friend would go after him whenever something out of that historic region appeared in the novels. Like scimitar swords. Funny part was when he wouldn't even notice actual serious problems with his books, like when a character that was supposed to be inconscious from poison is suddenly awake and well in one of the middle chapters, or a character being in two locations at once (can't believe how the editor didn't catch something like that).
The whole thing seemed silly to me, just like how I never got why people get so upset by the names that RAS uses in his novels. Sounds more like people have a bone to pick and they'll cling on to anything.
I'm sure your friend would appreciate you talking about him in such an unflattering way on a public forum. ;P
In all seriousness, your post is rather rude, on top of being passive-aggressive. I'm sorry for bluntly introducing negativity into the thread, but I hate passive-aggressive vagueposting. It's fine for you to disagree with the opinions expressed here and elsewhere regarding some of Salvatore's choices in his writing, and I'm sure that folks here for the most part would simply respect your difference in opinion as well as agree to disagreeing. People here seem mature and reasonable, so I doubt it'd be difficult for them to understand and accept that not everyone shares the same opinion. That's the whole purpose of discussion, after all.
However, flat-out implying that people who are unhappy with the things that they're unhappy with are just being petty is extremely unfair. Can you tell us whom you feel are behaving like your friend, who, assuming that your anecdote represents an accurate portrayal of the events, nitpicked trivial points while ignoring gaping plotholes? As far as I can see, there are a few jokes about funny names and my own word citation made out of ignorance, but the subject of this thread is about the word choice that Salvatore uses. We could launch into bigger issues here of course, but that'd go off topic.
Before you draw parallels between the reasonable people here and your, by your account, unreasonable friend, make sure that you have a solid foot to stand on. |
| sno4wy |
Posted - 05 Sep 2015 : 15:21:19
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
considering there used to be a spell called pyrotechnics in even the early editions of D&D..... I don't see a problem with the term being used.
Fair enough, I wasn't aware of this, but now that I am, it makes sense.  |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 05 Sep 2015 : 01:59:32
considering there used to be a spell called pyrotechnics in even the early editions of D&D..... I don't see a problem with the term being used. |
| Tanthalas |
Posted - 05 Sep 2015 : 00:38:33
You know, this reminds me of a friend of mine that used to hound the online forums of a young Portuguese writer who was getting his first high-fantasy books out.
The author made the mistake of saying that he based his world on a certain real-life historic period and region, so my friend would go after him whenever something out of that historic region appeared in the novels. Like scimitar swords. Funny part was when he wouldn't even notice actual serious problems with his books, like when a character that was supposed to be inconscious from poison is suddenly awake and well in one of the middle chapters, or a character being in two locations at once (can't believe how the editor didn't catch something like that).
The whole thing seemed silly to me, just like how I never got why people get so upset by the names that RAS uses in his novels. Sounds more like people have a bone to pick and they'll cling on to anything. |
| Duneth Despana |
Posted - 04 Sep 2015 : 23:58:47
this scroll already exists... at least once http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19905 |
| Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 04 Sep 2015 : 23:08:19
Also, remember this:
He's writing for a modern audience. |
| Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 04 Sep 2015 : 23:06:42
quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy
I'm just going to quote one word in reply to this thread.
"Pyrotechnics".
>_>
quote:
pyrotechnic (adj.) Look up pyrotechnic at Dictionary.com
1704, "of or pertaining to fire;" 1825, "of or pertaining to fireworks," from pyro- + Greek tekhnikos "made by art," from tekhne "art" (see techno-). Figurative use attested from 1847. Related: Pyrotechnical (1610s, from pyrotechny "use of gunpowder," 1570s).
Considering that the two sections of the word are Greek, thus more than a few centuries older than what we consider medieval (5th to 15th century), I think I can give it to him. |
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