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TaeghenAmalith
Acolyte

Italy
28 Posts

Posted - 26 Jan 2015 :  13:09:01  Show Profile Send TaeghenAmalith a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Well met.

I write this post knowing that maybe I'll be the target of a flame, but I need to say something about what can cause a fan to abandon a product.

PREMISE: I know that novels in FR line of products are not meant to be "literature" or "art" in a common way. They are fiction that help the gamer to understand better a campaign setting in order to place there more detailed adventures.
I've read many Salvatore novels despite the very low quality of them in terms of artistic writing and I've never found it as a great problem because I think Salvatore itself is perfectly conscious of the aim of the novels and he approach his work with onesty.

But there'is something I believe is wrong even if you are producing "pulp fiction". This wrong thing is slovenliness.

How many seconds are necessary in this world of social networking to find an italian mothertongue guy and ask him: "Hi my friend, can you tell me how it sounds this name for my new character in your language?"

I believe that are necessary less or more the same amount of time of a google translation.

I refer to PERICOLO TOPOLINO character. Please R. A., tell me that isn't true that you have decided to name your character in this way. Tell me that you don't know not even a single italian guy... Your name is Salvatore and Salvatore is an Italian name. Is it possible that you don't have the possibility to know that PERICOLO TOPOLINO in italian sounds like a road signboard claiming "DANGER, MICKEY MOUSE!"???

How can I read your book without thinking that you meant something like "dangerous little rat" and translated it with google? Don't you know that TOPOLINO is the Italian name for Mickey Mouse? How can he be dangerous?

Please Salvatore, love the tongue of your ancestors and love your readers. Don't be so slovenly.

Excuse me for my rant and for my bad english.

Edited by - TaeghenAmalith on 27 Jan 2015 21:38:41

Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 26 Jan 2015 :  15:34:52  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't get it, is he truly going to put a character with that name in the Realms? Perhaps it was a joke, or something

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 26 Jan 2015 15:35:28
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore

USA
1268 Posts

Posted - 26 Jan 2015 :  15:46:01  Show Profile  Visit Delwa's Homepage Send Delwa a Private Message  Reply with Quote
He had a character of similar name in The Companions. I'm away from books, so can't verify exact spelling. I didn't even notice, but now that I do, I see it as a amusing hidden joke, much like the rest of the Realms novels that Elaine and Ed wrote. There's subtle humor all over the Realms novels.

- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!

"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 26 Jan 2015 :  16:03:08  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Maybe, but if I was reading it and found such a name, it would definitely break the immersion. Names play a non neglectable role in keeping suspension of disbelief, that's the reason why DMs generally don't name their NPCs ''Bob the carpenter'', or the likes.

Just my 2 cents, ofc.

On a side note, does the character have qualities/attitude that somehow fit the name? Because then I wouldn't get the joke.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 26 Jan 2015 16:06:43
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sfdragon
Great Reader

2285 Posts

Posted - 26 Jan 2015 :  16:37:38  Show Profile Send sfdragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
never noticed every name in every book. Sand paper npcs dont get much time on paper

but

FLAME!!!

why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power


My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234
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Duneth Despana
Learned Scribe

Belgium
273 Posts

Posted - 26 Jan 2015 :  17:29:46  Show Profile Send Duneth Despana a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Delwa

He had a character of similar name in The Companions. I'm away from books, so can't verify exact spelling. I didn't even notice, but now that I do, I see it as a amusing hidden joke, much like the rest of the Realms novels that Elaine and Ed wrote. There's subtle humor all over the Realms novels.



This is meant in no way to offend you Delwa. But I believe that we have different standards for humour and subtlety, in this very case at least.
I, like the original poster, Taeghen Amalith, find the several 'Muffinhead's, 'Guenhwyvar's, 'Percival's, 'Jack the Gnome's and 'Topolino's to be uninspired, anti-immersive and reminiscent of the meant to be humorous 'Once Around the Realms'.

I guess your mileage may vary.

« There is no overriding « epic » in the Realms, but rather a large number of stories, adventures, and encounters going on all the time. [...]. Each creative mind adds to the base, creating, defining, and making their contribution to the rich diversity of the Realms. [...]. But Ed built the stage upon which all the plays are presented. Thanks Ed. » -FR Comic no.1
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore

United Kingdom
1150 Posts

Posted - 26 Jan 2015 :  17:40:44  Show Profile  Visit hashimashadoo's Homepage Send hashimashadoo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I see quite the distinction between Salvatore's work and Once Around the Realms.

Terrible, terrible novel.

When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.

Head admin of the FR wiki:

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/
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Duneth Despana
Learned Scribe

Belgium
273 Posts

Posted - 26 Jan 2015 :  18:45:41  Show Profile Send Duneth Despana a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yes. You are right (about the distinction, wether one enjoys Once Around the Realms and it's humour is, once again, subjective).
My last post came off way more surly and R.A.S.-bashy (Sorry, BEAST ;-P) than intended. Nevertheless, I still think of Brian Thomsen every time I stumble upon a painfully punny name or a pop culture spoof in a realms product.
I guess too that there is an argument for 'Guenhwyvar's and 'Percival's to have their place in Forgotten Realms where Elminster visits Ed, Finnish and Egyptian gods are worshipped and elves come from Tintageer... I wonder if it was the very celtic feel of the Moonshae trilogy that made R.A. Salvatore look to that mythology for inspiration.

« There is no overriding « epic » in the Realms, but rather a large number of stories, adventures, and encounters going on all the time. [...]. Each creative mind adds to the base, creating, defining, and making their contribution to the rich diversity of the Realms. [...]. But Ed built the stage upon which all the plays are presented. Thanks Ed. » -FR Comic no.1
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Duneth Despana
Learned Scribe

Belgium
273 Posts

Posted - 26 Jan 2015 :  20:11:26  Show Profile Send Duneth Despana a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And just so that it isn't only examples from RAS that I list. I believe it was Lisa Smedman's 'descenthallan' that jerked me right out of my immersion in 'Necessary Sacrifices' (wich in spite of this actually might be my single favorite short story from a Realms anthology.). It just seemed too lazy to me and reminded me of the Harry Potter latin'ish Spell Formulas.

« There is no overriding « epic » in the Realms, but rather a large number of stories, adventures, and encounters going on all the time. [...]. Each creative mind adds to the base, creating, defining, and making their contribution to the rich diversity of the Realms. [...]. But Ed built the stage upon which all the plays are presented. Thanks Ed. » -FR Comic no.1
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore

USA
1268 Posts

Posted - 26 Jan 2015 :  20:32:56  Show Profile  Visit Delwa's Homepage Send Delwa a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Duneth Despana

quote:
Originally posted by Delwa

He had a character of similar name in The Companions. I'm away from books, so can't verify exact spelling. I didn't even notice, but now that I do, I see it as a amusing hidden joke, much like the rest of the Realms novels that Elaine and Ed wrote. There's subtle humor all over the Realms novels.



This is meant in no way to offend you Delwa. But I believe that we have different standards for humour and subtlety, in this very case at least.
I, like the original poster, Taeghen Amalith, find the several 'Muffinhead's, 'Guenhwyvar's, 'Percival's, 'Jack the Gnome's and 'Topolino's to be uninspired, anti-immersive and reminiscent of the meant to be humorous 'Once Around the Realms'.

I guess your mileage may vary.



Like you said, your mileage may vary. I personally don't see it as breaking immersion. My own real world name translates roughly to "God Saves Little Bald Men," but nobody would think twice if they read my actual name in a novel, so I don't see why having a name that means translates to Mickey Mouse should do it. Again, to each their own. I don't expect anyone to suddenly change their preferences based on my opinion.

- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!

"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe

595 Posts

Posted - 26 Jan 2015 :  20:40:25  Show Profile Send Mirtek a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wasn't Pikel Bouldershoulder an attempt to see whether he could sneak a green haired dwarf named after pickles past the editior?

Edited by - Mirtek on 26 Jan 2015 20:40:58
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Tasker Daze
Seeker

84 Posts

Posted - 26 Jan 2015 :  22:27:02  Show Profile Send Tasker Daze a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Mebbe its a reference to Danger Mouse!

He's the greatest
He's fantastic
Wherever there's danger he'll be there
He's the ace
He's amazing
He's the strongest he's the quickest he's the best
Danger Mouse
He's terrific
He's magnific
He's the greatest secret agent in the world
Danger Mouse
Power House
He's the fastest he's the greatest he's the best
Danger Mouse
Danger Mouse
DANGER MOUSE

.
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore

USA
1714 Posts

Posted - 26 Jan 2015 :  23:08:29  Show Profile  Visit BEAST's Homepage Send BEAST a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Duneth Despana

My last post came off way more surly and R.A.S.-bashy (Sorry, BEAST ;-P) than intended. Nevertheless, I still think of Brian Thomsen every time I stumble upon a painfully punny name or a pop culture spoof in a realms product.

Hey, you don't owe me any apology. If you or anybody else feels like a writer is cheating or being lazy with naming conventions, you're fully entitled to sound off about it.

For me, personally, I was a little taken aback by "Jack the Gnome". "Jack" did not sound very Realmsian to me.

But AFAIK there's nothing prohibiting that kind of name arising in the Realms, either, so I just shrugged it off and kept reading. I was infinitely more miffed with the characters going soft on Obould in that book than I was with Bob's choice of names.

I've read elsewhere how Pericolo's name translates in the RW, and I wasn't offended there, either. Regardless of whatever it means here, it's still a cool-sounding name, in terms of phonetics and aesthetics. It just rolls off the tongue. And to me that gives it a certain timeless, universal quality, so it totally works for me as a Realmsian name.

quote:
I guess too that there is an argument for 'Guenhwyvar's and 'Percival's to have their place in Forgotten Realms where Elminster visits Ed, Finnish and Egyptian gods are worshipped and elves come from Tintageer... I wonder if it was the very celtic feel of the Moonshae trilogy that made R.A. Salvatore look to that mythology for inspiration.

Time spent with the deity or monster resourcebooks seems to show that D&D and the Realms both borrow heavily from just about every mythology known to humanity. It's a mishmash hodgepodge smorgasbord of stuff, thematically. All kinds of stuff has been slapped on here and there, and snuck in here and there.

Therefore, it doesn't really make sense to me to expect the game or fiction to be any different when it comes to naming conventions, or to be offended when we find really familiar names. It's only fitting, IMO.

That said, if a future edition of the Realms aimed to purify the world of as many overt nods to the RW as possible, and to match Ed's otherworldly vision as closely as can be, I wouldn't be averse to that, either.

But that would be a very tall order. It would be mean going against multiple editions of the published Realms in the pursuit of something quite new and strange. I mean, a world in which all others actually zealously and consistently ensured that Ed Greenwood's vision ruled the day???

"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)

<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works">
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe

740 Posts

Posted - 27 Jan 2015 :  05:32:12  Show Profile Send Eltheron a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek

Wasn't Pikel Bouldershoulder an attempt to see whether he could sneak a green haired dwarf named after pickles past the editior?


Oo oi! Doo-dad!




"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore

1965 Posts

Posted - 27 Jan 2015 :  06:52:21  Show Profile Send Fellfire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oooh, oih

Misanthorpe

Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.

"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises

Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out


Edited by - Fellfire on 27 Jan 2015 06:52:50
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore

1965 Posts

Posted - 27 Jan 2015 :  06:56:26  Show Profile Send Fellfire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Was Pikel favored, Chosen?

Misanthorpe

Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.

"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises

Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out

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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6638 Posts

Posted - 27 Jan 2015 :  07:00:19  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Some of Salvatore's names are evidence of poor editorial control, IMO. Authors write what they want to write.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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TaeghenAmalith
Acolyte

Italy
28 Posts

Posted - 27 Jan 2015 :  08:47:13  Show Profile Send TaeghenAmalith a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Maybe is poor editorial control.
In my opinion Salvatore was looking for an Italian name to give the whole thing a Mafia flavour. While PERICOLO could be acceptable, TOPOLINO is completely ridiculous.
And the daughter? DONNOLA TOPOLINO? This pose a problem: Salvatore knows that TOPOLINO means LITTLE MOUSE? Because if him know that, than maybe he doesn't know that DONNOLA means Weasel so he call a character Weasel Little Mouse... what a mess ...

Anyway I believe that is slovenliness. Not a major issue indeed but a symptom of a poor attention and carelessness.
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore

United Kingdom
1150 Posts

Posted - 27 Jan 2015 :  09:47:49  Show Profile  Visit hashimashadoo's Homepage Send hashimashadoo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BobSalvatore

Topolino, as has been pointed out, means "little mouse." And yes, therefore, Pericolo Topolino is a Dangerous Little Mouse. read the first introduction of the Grandfather of Assassins in Delthuntle. Seems fitting to me.



And there you have it. Straight from the man himself in a post on another forum in November of 2013.

When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.

Head admin of the FR wiki:

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/

Edited by - hashimashadoo on 27 Jan 2015 09:49:20
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TaeghenAmalith
Acolyte

Italy
28 Posts

Posted - 27 Jan 2015 :  11:24:57  Show Profile Send TaeghenAmalith a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo

quote:
Originally posted by BobSalvatore

Topolino, as has been pointed out, means "little mouse." And yes, therefore, Pericolo Topolino is a Dangerous Little Mouse. read the first introduction of the Grandfather of Assassins in Delthuntle. Seems fitting to me.



And there you have it. Straight from the man himself in a post on another forum in November of 2013.



In this case the problem is worse than I was suspecting...
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
955 Posts

Posted - 27 Jan 2015 :  11:45:01  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TaeghenAmalith

quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo

quote:
Originally posted by BobSalvatore

Topolino, as has been pointed out, means "little mouse." And yes, therefore, Pericolo Topolino is a Dangerous Little Mouse. read the first introduction of the Grandfather of Assassins in Delthuntle. Seems fitting to me.



And there you have it. Straight from the man himself in a post on another forum in November of 2013.




In this case the problem is worse than I was suspecting...



I'm not sure if it's that bad, especialy that he may not know Topolino is the Italian name for Mickey Mouse.
Although indeed, naming Pericolo's granddaughter Donnola, may be a bad idea, as 'Weasel Little Mouse', is indeed to much...
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TaeghenAmalith
Acolyte

Italy
28 Posts

Posted - 27 Jan 2015 :  13:28:07  Show Profile Send TaeghenAmalith a Private Message  Reply with Quote
https://www.dropbox.com/s/yszbv3v4m2w22w3/pericolo_topolino.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/y255thdwma02f2z/pericolo_topolino.png?dl=0

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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 27 Jan 2015 :  13:30:28  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TaeghenAmalith

https://www.dropbox.com/s/yszbv3v4m2w22w3/pericolo_topolino.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/y255thdwma02f2z/pericolo_topolino.png?dl=0






Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 27 Jan 2015 :  14:25:19  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have always been of the opinion that not only does RAS purposefully come up with the most UN-Realmsian names possible, but also goes out of his way to belittle his own fans. I think this may have to do with the fact that Drizzt's popularity (which he blames on those fans) is like an albatross hanging around his neck - he can't get away from it.


"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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BEAST
Master of Realmslore

USA
1714 Posts

Posted - 27 Jan 2015 :  16:30:51  Show Profile  Visit BEAST's Homepage Send BEAST a Private Message  Reply with Quote
https://cf.geekdo-static.com/images/geekcomics/nitpick_med.jpg

http://2zc1b17o2z31tq6mp3ix5cu3cf.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/the-nitpicker.jpg

"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)

<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works">
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 27 Jan 2015 :  16:51:54  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST

https://cf.geekdo-static.com/images/geekcomics/nitpick_med.jpg

http://2zc1b17o2z31tq6mp3ix5cu3cf.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/the-nitpicker.jpg



I usually don't nitpick small things, but Pericolo/Donnola Topolino is one of those things (just like Jack the gnome, actually way more than that) that would break the immersion for me. As I said, names play a role in defining the flavor of a setting, it is cool to be elastic on that matter, but there should be some limits.

But then, perhaps that's just because I'm from Italy and reading those names would make a certain imagery immediately come to mind, that would feel terribly out of place.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 27 Jan 2015 16:52:36
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore

USA
1714 Posts

Posted - 27 Jan 2015 :  16:52:25  Show Profile  Visit BEAST's Homepage Send BEAST a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I have always been of the opinion that not only does RAS purposefully come up with the most UN-Realmsian names possible, but also goes out of his way to belittle his own fans. I think this may have to do with the fact that Drizzt's popularity (which he blames on those fans) is like an albatross hanging around his neck - he can't get away from it.

The thing with that is...he came up with "Dagnabit" while writing only his third Drizzt book (1990's The Halfling's Gem), and "Pikel" for his first non-Drizzt Realms book (1991's Canticle). There hadn't been enough time for him to be tired of Drizzt, yet. Those silly names were not targeting the fans--they were aimed directly at his editor(s). Somebody interfered with his early stories somewhere (messing with Guenhwyvar's gender was one of the offenses, I believe), so he decided to take it to the editor. You can call that immature, or the resulting publication of such names a lack of editorial control. But it actually stems from excessive, misguided editorial control in the first place.

The fact that they ever let any of those names in kinda goes to show that they either don't know as much as they think they do, or they don't have the balls to stand up to him. Either way, what kind of editor is that?

I've questioned Bob on some technical things over the years. And he has listened to me. I just don't attack him with a red pen of death or tell him he's wrong, wrong, wrong! I approach him with facts and logic, and offer him some alternative ways of dealing with the topic. And he has always responded to me politely and respectfully. I honestly believe that's all it takes.

At this point, I don't think Bob is hating on anyone with the silly names. He's just having fun with it.

Why can't you all?



Again, if the publisher were to ever make a conscientious effort to purify the Realms, and to run everything through a Greenwooden filter, I could support that. But such a progam would need to be comprehensive and consistent, and not single any one particular writer out, as this here scroll clearly does.

"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)

<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works">
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore

USA
1714 Posts

Posted - 27 Jan 2015 :  17:13:06  Show Profile  Visit BEAST's Homepage Send BEAST a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

I usually don't nitpick small things, but Pericolo/Donnola Topolino is one of those things (just like Jack the gnome, actually way more than that) that would break the immersion for me. As I said, names play a role in defining the flavor of a setting, it is cool to be elastic on that matter, but there should be some limits.

But then, perhaps that's just because I'm from Italy and reading those names would make a certain imagery immediately come to mind, that would feel terribly out of place.

Medusas, Mephistopheles, mithril/mithral, etc., all come from other preexisting sources. One could even accuse D&D/FR/TSR/WOTC of plagiarism, copyright infringement, or theft of intellectual property, regarding a lot of that stuff. Even if it wouldn't hold up in a court of law, there would still be some ideological and philosophical meat on them bones.

If you're very well-read at all, you will inevitabily recognize TONS of material in FR works from other, older works. It happens all the time, if you've been paying attention.

And yet, D&D/FR/WOTC have gotten away with it--and even thrived by doing it, for years.

One might as well call out, "Plz someone stops Dungeons & Dragons", or "Plz someone stops Forgotten Realms".

So it seems blatantly arbitrary and narrow-minded to pick on one particular author's use of ported-in names/themes.

"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)

<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works">
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TaeghenAmalith
Acolyte

Italy
28 Posts

Posted - 27 Jan 2015 :  17:18:31  Show Profile Send TaeghenAmalith a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Maybe the problem is the different perception between Italian mothertongue and not in defining what is niptick and what is not... Every Italian person will find pericolo topolino as simply and hugely ridiculous.

I have to add, but this is my personal point of view, that with a minimal effort he can choose between:

Pantegana
Ratto
Sorcio

And a thousand of other less of more appropriate way of call the mouse in Italian with a perfect mafia flavour.

What make me speak of slovenliness is that if you are thinking about name a character in a language that isn't yours, well, it's extremely simple to make a little check to avoid bad figures.

Aside,I find the practice to name a character in a way that "explains" what one is can be acceptable in an under 12 years old targeted fiction. But I can pass on it posing that the name is evocative in some way...

This sad, the novel can be beautiful even if you are Italian :-)
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 27 Jan 2015 :  17:24:23  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST

quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

I usually don't nitpick small things, but Pericolo/Donnola Topolino is one of those things (just like Jack the gnome, actually way more than that) that would break the immersion for me. As I said, names play a role in defining the flavor of a setting, it is cool to be elastic on that matter, but there should be some limits.

But then, perhaps that's just because I'm from Italy and reading those names would make a certain imagery immediately come to mind, that would feel terribly out of place.

Medusas, Mephistopheles, mithril/mithral, etc., all come from other preexisting sources. One could even accuse D&D/FR/TSR/WOTC of plagiarism, copyright infringement, or theft of intellectual property, regarding a lot of that stuff. Even if it wouldn't hold up in a court of law, there would still be some ideological and philosophical meat on them bones.

If you're very well-read at all, you will inevitabily recognize TONS of material in FR works from other, older works. It happens all the time, if you've been paying attention.

And yet, D&D/FR/WOTC have gotten away with it--and even thrived by doing it, for years.

One might as well call out, "Plz someone stops Dungeons & Dragons", or "Plz someone stops Forgotten Realms".

So it seems blatantly arbitrary and narrow-minded to pick on one particular author's use of ported-in names/themes.



I have no objection to the use of names like mithril or Mephistopheles (even though I'd prefer more original names to be used), because they refer to concepts that are not out of place in common fantasy (which the FR/most of D&D are), and because most fantasy draws inspiration from mythology or previous works, it's pointless to deny that (also, what theft of intellectual property? Mythological or folkloristic legends and creatures are of public domain AFAIK).

However when the name is a reference to stuff that has nothing to do with the setting, and that could easily break immersion, I tend to raise my brow. I'm not saying that Salvatore is trying to offend or hate on anyone with this choice, nor (I guess) anyone feels ''offended'' by it, I'm just saying that keeping suspension of disbelief becomes harder when ''Donnola Topolino'' is thrown in.

But then, as I've already said, this may be just because I'm italian and tend to associate determinate things with those names.

Just my 2 cents.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 27 Jan 2015 17:28:55
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TaeghenAmalith
Acolyte

Italy
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Posted - 27 Jan 2015 :  17:26:14  Show Profile Send TaeghenAmalith a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST

quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

I usually don't nitpick small things, but Pericolo/Donnola Topolino is one of those things (just like Jack the gnome, actually way more than that) that would break the immersion for me. As I said, names play a role in defining the flavor of a setting, it is cool to be elastic on that matter, but there should be some limits.

But then, perhaps that's just because I'm from Italy and reading those names would make a certain imagery immediately come to mind, that would feel terribly out of place.

Medusas, Mephistopheles, mithril/mithral, etc., all come from other preexisting sources. One could even accuse D&D/FR/TSR/WOTC of plagiarism, copyright infringement, or theft of intellectual property, regarding a lot of that stuff. Even if it wouldn't hold up in a court of law, there would still be some ideological and philosophical meat on them bones.

If you're very well-read at all, you will inevitabily recognize TONS of material in FR works from other, older works. It happens all the time, if you've been paying attention.

And yet, D&D/FR/WOTC have gotten away with it--and even thrived by doing it, for years.

One might as well call out, "Plz someone stops Dungeons & Dragons", or "Plz someone stops Forgotten Realms".

So it seems blatantly arbitrary and narrow-minded to pick on one particular author's use of ported-in names/themes.



BEAST, you are shifting the terms of the problem. I'm not blaming Salvatore for his use of terms coming from other fiction, mithology or so...
I simply found ridiculous a single (well a pair) name he use and affirm that with a little effort he was able to avoid the bad figure.

Call a great mage "Merlinus" would be naive, call a great mage SpongeBob...
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