| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| TaeghenAmalith |
Posted - 26 Jan 2015 : 13:09:01
Well met.
I write this post knowing that maybe I'll be the target of a flame, but I need to say something about what can cause a fan to abandon a product.
PREMISE: I know that novels in FR line of products are not meant to be "literature" or "art" in a common way. They are fiction that help the gamer to understand better a campaign setting in order to place there more detailed adventures.
I've read many Salvatore novels despite the very low quality of them in terms of artistic writing and I've never found it as a great problem because I think Salvatore itself is perfectly conscious of the aim of the novels and he approach his work with onesty.
But there'is something I believe is wrong even if you are producing "pulp fiction". This wrong thing is slovenliness.
How many seconds are necessary in this world of social networking to find an italian mothertongue guy and ask him: "Hi my friend, can you tell me how it sounds this name for my new character in your language?"
I believe that are necessary less or more the same amount of time of a google translation.
I refer to PERICOLO TOPOLINO character. Please R. A., tell me that isn't true that you have decided to name your character in this way. Tell me that you don't know not even a single italian guy... Your name is Salvatore and Salvatore is an Italian name. Is it possible that you don't have the possibility to know that PERICOLO TOPOLINO in italian sounds like a road signboard claiming "DANGER, MICKEY MOUSE!"???
How can I read your book without thinking that you meant something like "dangerous little rat" and translated it with google? Don't you know that TOPOLINO is the Italian name for Mickey Mouse? How can he be dangerous?
Please Salvatore, love the tongue of your ancestors and love your readers. Don't be so slovenly.
Excuse me for my rant and for my bad english. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 31 Jan 2015 : 14:59:58
quote:
Originally posted by lordsknight185
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Something I don't like with character names is repeating syllables -- I hated the names Mari Almaren and Caledon Caldorian, for example. The first names are fine, and the surnames are fine, but together, they bugged the crap out of me.
While I personally understand how annoying it can be, it happens even in the real world. Something like a "Jonathan Johnson" would be buggy too.
Oh, I understand that... There was a CPA in this area, for a while, whose name was Joseph J Joseph, Jr. The Junior part, by itself, is in my opinion, quite bad -- I seriously dislike that suffix (apologies to any who bear it; it's just a personal thing, and no offense is intended).
But it showed in this case that two generations of parents thought that Joseph Joseph was a great name, and that one of them had already gone thru life with that name and still thought it was a good idea to inflict it on someone else.
But as bad as that is, in the real world, there could be some compelling reason to do that. Family tradition, perhaps, or honoring a fallen parent, or something like that. My son is named for his grandfather, as a way of honoring him. My dad, too, was named after his grandfather (to whom he is virtually identical). So my son is at least the third to bear the name, but my dad didn't have a number trailing his name, so neither does my son. If I have another son, we'll have to come up with something different -- I'm not fond of my own first name, and I dislike my grandfather's first name, so both of those are out.
In a fantasy world, though, when you're literally making up the names as you go, there isn't that much reason to do that. And that particular author did it not once, but twice in the same book -- Caledon Caldorian and Mari Almaren are companions. So when I read something like that, it's the same as seeing characters named Rob Roberson and Mark Marx, except there is no valid reasoning other than whim for it. That makes it worse. |
| Portuguese D. Ace |
Posted - 31 Jan 2015 : 08:20:26
TaeghenAmalith, we have a problem in common.
we are both italian.
thats it.
maybe to the average reader Pericolo/donnola topolino may sound exotic.
we cant perceive that exotic feeling simply because, as you said, it sounds to us as a danger roadsign pointing out HOW DANGEROUS mickey mouse is.
but just try to see it as Dangerous Little Mouse. thats it. it has its "hidden" meaning.
if you adapt to it you will see what an awesome character it is.
|
| lordsknight185 |
Posted - 31 Jan 2015 : 07:06:52
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Something I don't like with character names is repeating syllables -- I hated the names Mari Almaren and Caledon Caldorian, for example. The first names are fine, and the surnames are fine, but together, they bugged the crap out of me.
While I personally understand how annoying it can be, it happens even in the real world. Something like a "Jonathan Johnson" would be buggy too. |
| BEAST |
Posted - 31 Jan 2015 : 01:42:47
quote:
Originally posted by Cards77
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
I always read Pikel like pike, not pickle.
Same here.
Yeah, after reading Tolkien's elaborate language pronunciation guides in the Appendices to "TLOTR", I've been spoiled by the idea of consistency in pronunciations.
If "Ivan" is pronounced with a hard "i" (/EYE-vuhn/), then my conditioned inclination is to think that "Pikel" should be pronounced with one too (/PIKE-uhl/).
But nooooooooo!
So if the green-bearded one is a /PIH-kuhl/, then is the yellow-beared one an /IH-vuhn/?
What if, for consistency's sake, it were /PEE-kuhl/ and /EE-vahn/?
I guess we could Russki it up and make it /ee-VAHN/.
/PEE-kul/ and /ee-VAHN/? Tee-hee-hee, as Pikel might say.  |
| Tanthalas |
Posted - 30 Jan 2015 : 21:19:55
quote:
Originally posted by Farrel
8) The Circus of Dr Trundles - No, just no! Does anywhere in the Forgotten Realms even have a medical school to gain the required qualifications?
Technically, the Dr title comes from having a PhD, not a medical licence.
But around here people use it for anyone that has any kind of college decree. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 30 Jan 2015 : 18:12:14
Something I don't like with character names is repeating syllables -- I hated the names Mari Almaren and Caledon Caldorian, for example. The first names are fine, and the surnames are fine, but together, they bugged the crap out of me. |
| Arcanus |
Posted - 30 Jan 2015 : 15:25:51
Yep, to quote him-
"Of course it's pickel, his beard is dyed green forgods sake! I couldn't make it anymore obvious!"
Or words to that effect lol. (That comes from a panel that someone on here gave a link to. The Tome Show I think it was). |
| lordsknight185 |
Posted - 30 Jan 2015 : 06:12:24
Pikels the drummer doodly doodly doo
(Im sorry!...not really)
seriously though, been reading bob for years and years and while I understood it was meant to be a joke on pickel, I did not realise it was meant to be pronounced that way. |
| Cards77 |
Posted - 29 Jan 2015 : 19:19:31
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
I always read Pikel like pike, not pickle.
Same here. |
| Arcanus |
Posted - 29 Jan 2015 : 13:25:53
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
I always read Pikel like pike, not pickle.
The spelling was Bobs way of getting one over on his editor. I watched an interview with him where he explained that he was still irked over being told not to use Dagnabbit (future books saw the use of Dagna instead).
Pikel should be pronounced 'Pickel' |
| Corwyn the Errant |
Posted - 29 Jan 2015 : 13:08:01
The ones that make me wince are Dagnabit {I picture Yosemite Sam every time I read that} and Bouldershoulder {brings to mind old 2nd grade jokes about "over the shoulder boulder-holders", but that might just be me :}...} Some of the names Salvatore uses...reading one of his works and running across one of them is like hitting a speed bump, breaks the flow of the narrative for me. But as the original poster said, we're not talking about high literature here; a little silliness is forgivable. |
| Diffan |
Posted - 29 Jan 2015 : 04:52:36
quote:
Originally posted by Entromancer
Anyone here read Bob's Demon Wars saga? He's got a thing for quirky names. Simple as that.
I think I read the first couple of books, and yes it's not a unique thing for just the Realms. Same with the Spearwielder's Trilogy. |
| Jeremy Grenemyer |
Posted - 29 Jan 2015 : 02:48:58
I always read Pikel like pike, not pickle. |
| Cards77 |
Posted - 29 Jan 2015 : 01:09:21
He's said before in interviews that he just puts down whatever pops into his head. I have a VERY limited appetite for SOME quirkiness as I feel it adds some humor, and even can add some lore.
Not every name has to be BADASS sounding. I mean Pikel..I couldn't really imagine him named anything else. Corio Muffinhead, McKnuckles......those are great dwarf names, just of a different flavor. I did not know there was a dwarf clan of bakers and cooks!
Seriously though, most of them are downright rediculous. The only thing worse is trying to listen to Felicia Day read one of his books on Audio.......uggg I was looking for an icepick so i could rupture my eardrums. |
| Entromancer |
Posted - 28 Jan 2015 : 19:55:09
Anyone here read Bob's Demon Wars saga? He's got a thing for quirky names. Simple as that. |
| TaeghenAmalith |
Posted - 28 Jan 2015 : 18:46:12
quote:
Originally posted by Matt James
I apologize, my reply was swift. I meant to disagree with the notion that the books are written to only support adventures and the games.
Maybe "only" is too strong.  |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 28 Jan 2015 : 14:39:53
quote:
Originally posted by TaeghenAmalith
I've read many Salvatore novels despite the very low quality of them in terms of artistic writing and I've never found it as a great problem because I think Salvatore itself is perfectly conscious of the aim of the novels and he approach his work with onesty.
But there'is something I believe is wrong even if you are producing "pulp fiction". This wrong thing is slovenliness.
How many seconds are necessary in this world of social networking to find an italian mothertongue guy and ask him: "Hi my friend, can you tell me how it sounds this name for my new character in your language?"
Italian?
I'm reasonably sure English is his primary language. Yet he got Matron Mother Malice and worse. What did you expect?
Aside of names, there was "me big dumb fightar" dialect early and crystal killer yo-yo later...
That's how it was from the very first books. And that's what was annoying about him from the very first books: that never was complete Tweenlight fit only to ignore or to poke appendages at and laugh. Salvatore got talent, and writes cool stuff... occasionally. A gem here and dust speck there. And then he encases it in mountain ranges worth of shameless hack.
Should've kept writing about dwarves, maybe?  |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 28 Jan 2015 : 14:30:29
I agree with Matt's disagreement with the notion.
I find many of the novels to be counterproductive when it comes to running or even playing in a roleplaying game. While they may help detail the world (the quality of the detail varies with the author) they also use up all the plot hooks and kill off many of the interesting characters.
I never use them but for some the canon nature of the world is important and when an interesting storyline has been detailed and ended in a way with which you do not agree that frustrates the whole point of a roleplaying game - to take part in/tell a story. |
| Matt James |
Posted - 28 Jan 2015 : 14:09:53
I apologize, my reply was swift. I meant to disagree with the notion that the books are written to only support adventures and the games. |
| TaeghenAmalith |
Posted - 28 Jan 2015 : 12:49:41
It is difficult to find a shared definition of what art is. My intent was to explain my approach to the novels and not to put them in a classification.
From my PERSONAL point of view, I don't find artistic value in many novels, but enjoy it because art and literature is not what I look for in it. Hope now the premise is more clearer. |
| Matt James |
Posted - 28 Jan 2015 : 12:41:21
quote:
Originally posted by TaeghenAmalith
PREMISE: I know that novels in FR line of products are not meant to be "literature" or "art" in a common way. They are fiction that help the gamer to understand better a campaign setting in order to place there more detailed adventures.
I don't agree with the premise at all. |
| Arcanus |
Posted - 28 Jan 2015 : 10:53:39
Yep, the Dragonsbane crew were Doug Niles's creation. Bob is a big fan of them though. |
| Farrel |
Posted - 28 Jan 2015 : 10:13:03
quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo
quote:
Originally posted by Farrel
Bob has a history of terrible names littered throughout his work. Here are a few of the ones which make me cringe the most.
2) Gareth and Christine Dragonsbane - Gareth and Christine... I bet those names took forever to come up with?
3) Emelyn the Grey - I can't think of Emelyn without thinking of a Question of Sport and Emelyn Hughes. I have to say that this one is probably particular to me as I'm of a certain age and live in the UK.
4) Kane - Ah Grasshopper? This is just... plagiarism?
8) The Circus of Dr Trundles - No, just no! Does anywhere in the Forgotten Realms even have a medical school to gain the required qualifications?
These definitely weren't Bob's creations. They're all from the H series of modules that were retconned into the Realms. Blame Doug Niles and Mike Dobson.
I stand corrected 
Doug Niles and Mike Dobson are duly blamed |
| hashimashadoo |
Posted - 28 Jan 2015 : 10:10:39
quote:
Originally posted by Farrel
Bob has a history of terrible names littered throughout his work. Here are a few of the ones which make me cringe the most.
2) Gareth and Christine Dragonsbane - Gareth and Christine... I bet those names took forever to come up with?
3) Emelyn the Grey - I can't think of Emelyn without thinking of a Question of Sport and Emelyn Hughes. I have to say that this one is probably particular to me as I'm of a certain age and live in the UK.
4) Kane - Ah Grasshopper? This is just... plagiarism?
8) The Circus of Dr Trundles - No, just no! Does anywhere in the Forgotten Realms even have a medical school to gain the required qualifications?
These definitely weren't Bob's creations. They're all from the H series of modules that were retconned into the Realms. Blame Doug Niles and Mike Dobson. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 28 Jan 2015 : 09:54:29
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
Wrong. "Topolino" with capital T is Mickey Mouse, "topolino" is one way to say "little rat".
My understanding is that the correct way to say "Mickey" in Italian would be Michaelino, which means "little Michael", "Mikey", or "Mickey".
So "Mickey Mouse" should have been translated as something like Michaelino Topo (Mikey Mouse), or Michaelino Topolino (Mikey Mousey).
But for marketing and simplicity's sake, they changed the name to something else that was still very similar in Italian. The first name of "Mickey" was completely lost in translation, and the last name became his whole name.
Thus, Topolino is not "Mickey Mouse", but rather just a marketing substitute. It's who Mickey Mouse became in Italian pop culture.
Actually, if you look up the history of Topolino, you can see that the name was made up in order to avoid copyright infringement claims. So Topolino was actually an impostor. The name that you guys have taken such a stand upon is actually the name of an impostor! When Disney's representative in Italia protested, Topolino was redesigned and renamed as Topo Lino, to further avoid legal troubles. The Disney-based animal characters were completely redrawn as humans during WWII as some kind of political propaganda, but they came back after war's end, and this time with Disney's blessing. The impostor's name Topolino had gained enough popularity over time that later on when Disney was officially and legally introduced into Italia, the impostor name was brought back, to avoid confusing longtime Italiano fans. So Disney retroactively embraced the impostor's name, in the name of money and appeasing fans, as opposed to demanding superimposition of the original English name as a matter of artistic integrity.
But what Topolino ultimately, literally, is, is simply a capitalized form of "mouse-little", or "little mouse".
If my name is Robert and I go by "Bob" in the US, were I to go to Italia for my honeymoon and were everybody to call me Roberto, Robertino, or Bobbino for convenience's sake, that would be a nice taste of Italia and everything, but it still wouldn't be my name or my identity. It would be a substitute name.
And if I were to claim one name in the US, and then to claim a different name/identity in another country, well, that would be just be whack. It would probably even be illegal, if I weren't a cartoon mouse, or an international spy!
Dude, come on. When you write Topolino in Italian, you are referring to Mickey Mouse. That's the commonly accepted meaning of the word. We have already acknowledged that this may represent an issue only to Italian readers, what's the need to go out of your way just to do semantics?
quote:
I'm just pointing out that the criticisms don't hold a lot of weight.
As I said before, if someone criticizes a name, try to look at it like feedback, rather than ''OMG THEY'RE FLAMING''. People wouldn't want such a minor flaw to lessen in any way something they like, because they care about it, so they express their concern. But, for the last time, it appears that ''Topolino'' is only a potential issue for Italian readers, so whatever... |
| Farrel |
Posted - 28 Jan 2015 : 09:38:42
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Some of Salvatore's names are evidence of poor editorial control, IMO. Authors write what they want to write.
-- George Krashos
Bob has a history of terrible names littered throughout his work. Here are a few of the ones which make me cringe the most.
1) Berginyon Baenre - Beef Bourguignon anyone? I think this name actually broke any immersion I was hoping for when I read those books. To me it stuck out like a sore thumb on every page and got my back up every single time I read it.
2) Gareth and Christine Dragonsbane - Gareth and Christine... I bet those names took forever to come up with?
3) Emelyn the Grey - I can't think of Emelyn without thinking of a Question of Sport and Emelyn Hughes. I have to say that this one is probably particular to me as I'm of a certain age and live in the UK.
4) Kane - Ah Grasshopper? This is just... plagiarism?
5) Horse - Watched any Richard Harris films from the 70's Bob?
6) Bistro Battenrooj - A nice café which serves food and a real place in Louisiana... Really?
7) Weird Wingham's Wacky Weapon Wielders - What... on... earth... were... you... thinking?
8) The Circus of Dr Trundles - No, just no! Does anywhere in the Forgotten Realms even have a medical school to gain the required qualifications?
It isn't just limited to Bob. The worst name (In my opinion) in all of the Forgotten Realms has to be from Raven's Bluff - The mayor Charles Oliver O'Kane.
I don't mind variations on real life names - a change of a letter here or there can be really good. Anyone using common, real life, names in fantasy literature needs be taken outside and have a serious talking to.
Ah! That was cathartic  |
| Irennan |
Posted - 28 Jan 2015 : 09:35:45
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
.well Magic, Dragons, Wizards, Spells, Monsters, and fantasy in general doesn't do a whole lot to support it in anyway either.
This isn't true (and again, this is a note unrelated to the RAS discussion). Even fantastical worlds have their themes, consistency, rules, lore and so on, which can cause immersion. That's why some things feel out of place in certain settings. If it wasn't the case, and randomness and silliness were all over the place because ''hey man, dragons and magic, so who cares??'', then fantasy literature would be a failure.
And yet in the Realms we have people named things like Jack, have space ships (oh, sorry Spelljammers) and Aliens and Dragons and stuff like that. MOST of that and especially in the earlier days of D&D the silliness and randomness was actually something people thought was endearing within the wider scope of D&D.
Again, even if you have dragons and magic, you can still have immersion in a given fantasy world, provided said stuff works within the theme or lore of the setting (and considering Halruaan flying ships, spelljammers ships are not even such a strecth). If by aliens you are referring to the aboleth stuff, well I wouldn't say that it was well received (and not because of the aboleths, but because of how it was implemented). But then, in a world full of portals and various kinds of connections, why would ''aliens'' (as in creatures coming from other worlds/planes of existence) be out of place? And while I understand that ''Pericolo Topolino'' is ridiculous only to Italian people, I guess that we can all agree that it would be better if editors stopped names like Jack the gnome from hitting the press.
If you couldn't have immersion or suspension of disbelief ''because fantasy'', then what would the point of playing a RPG be?
Also, while it obviously is a matter of taste, I think that the stigma that D&D fiction generally carries is perhaps due to excessive ''silliness'' or stereotypization that (AFAIK, correct me if I'm wrong) it had in the earlier days.
quote:
BTW when did this become serious buisness?
 |
| TaeghenAmalith |
Posted - 28 Jan 2015 : 07:07:13
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
Wrong. "Topolino" with capital T is Mickey Mouse, "topolino" is one way to say "little rat".
My understanding is that the correct way to say "Mickey" in Italian would be Michaelino, which means "little Michael", "Mikey", or "Mickey".
So "Mickey Mouse" should have been translated as something like Michaelino Topo (Mikey Mouse), or Michaelino Topolino (Mikey Mousey).
But for marketing and simplicity's sake, they changed the name to something else that was still very similar in Italian. The first name of "Mickey" was completely lost in translation, and the last name became his whole name.
Thus, Topolino is not "Mickey Mouse", but rather just a marketing substitute. It's who Mickey Mouse became in Italian pop culture.
Actually, if you look up the history of Topolino, you can see that the name was made up in order to avoid copyright infringement claims. So Topolino was actually an impostor. The name that you guys have taken such a stand upon is actually the name of an impostor! When Disney's representative in Italia protested, Topolino was redesigned and renamed as Topo Lino, to further avoid legal troubles. The Disney-based animal characters were completely redrawn as humans during WWII as some kind of political propaganda, but they came back after war's end, and this time with Disney's blessing. The impostor's name Topolino had gained enough popularity over time that later on when Disney was officially and legally introduced into Italia, the impostor name was brought back, to avoid confusing longtime Italiano fans. So Disney retroactively embraced the impostor's name, in the name of money and appeasing fans, as opposed to demanding superimposition of the original English name as a matter of artistic integrity.
Mirror climbing check: 25 |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 28 Jan 2015 : 06:40:49
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Some of Salvatore's names are evidence of poor editorial control, IMO. Authors write what they want to write.
-- George Krashos
You can say that again.... Dagnabbit? Bistro Batenrooj (for those that don't get that one, Baton Rouge is the capital of Louisiana)?
They did break my suspension of disbelief, but not horribly. |
| BenN |
Posted - 28 Jan 2015 : 06:23:29
I thought Pericolo (and Donnola) Topolino were just fine, especially as the characterizations was well-done.
As for Spider Parrafin, Spider is good as a nickname, but Parrafin sounds like the runty cousin of Vin Diesil.
I agree with Jack the Gnome being iffy; Gnomes are not human, so (IMHO) giving them human names is kinda weird (unless they were adopted by a human family). They should have appropriately 'exotic' names, just as most FR elves do. I mean, it would be hard to imagine a character called 'Fred the Elf', wouldn't it? |
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