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T O P I C    R E V I E W
Gary Dallison Posted - 25 Nov 2014 : 20:07:20
I'm looking for all things Moonshae. I've read the Moonshae book, the Halls of the High King adventure, Treasure Hunt adventure, Dragon 405, Dungeon 196, Dragon 362.

Are there any other Moonshae mentions anywhere in any other sourcebooks or magazines? Even if its only half relevant to the Moonshae such as Grond Peaksmasher, is he featured in any articles.

There doesn't seem to be a lot of concrete information about the area. I have an idea for an alternate take but would prefer it if there were a bit more info to go on.
25   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
Gary Dallison Posted - 15 Jan 2021 : 15:31:20
The northmen.

We have northmen arriving in faerun about -3000 dr and in some sources they migrate south to north, in others they migrate north to south, and in a few they migrate east to west over land. They all end up in ruathym.

I decided they were all true and figured the south to north migration would have encountered the moonshaes (it's too big to miss and the coastal currents seem to head towards it in some places)

So if they arrived they must have got killed off or avoided it. The LeShay abduct ffolk in the current age for use in their armies so why not have this happen way back way as well.
ElfBane Posted - 15 Jan 2021 : 15:14:24
BTW, what humans, and where are they coming from, do you have invading Gwynneth in the -2000DR time period?
ElfBane Posted - 15 Jan 2021 : 14:56:24
Thank you again Dazzler. I'll use the -2000 DR,,, I need more time to flesh out the scenario.
Gary Dallison Posted - 15 Jan 2021 : 10:22:49
140 DR is the official date for ffolk colonizing Gwynneth.


I added a few extra dates for separate groups of ffolk colonizing alaron in 146 DR and another group colonizing south western edge of Gwyneth and flamsterd before 140 DR

Tethyrian arrived 467 DR in alaron mostly

The northmen arrive in waves from about 256 DR onwards conquering different islands as they go. I had a much earlier wave of northmen arrive when they first appeared in faerun around -2000 dr, but this settlement was eradicated and the humans became slaves to the leshay in their fight with kazgoroth.

That's just my version though, you probably want 140 DR
ElfBane Posted - 15 Jan 2021 : 10:12:07
Hello all!
I can find when the Llewer Elves settled Gwynneth (-9800 DR), but does anyone know when humans arrived?
Thanks!
wildeman Posted - 03 Dec 2020 : 07:31:16
George,
Btw, you are incorrect in saying BRJ is the only person who could help. Your info was actually very helpful and informative. Plus, after knowing what you shared, I feel more at ease drawing my own conclusions and creating my own material from this older lore/fan fiction. So again, thank you for your assistance.

Hey Gary,

In 1408 DR Lionel Carrathal challenges the Kendrick's by claiming the throne of Corwell... iirc, after Alicia's death and Feithline's ascension as High Queen... but he does it from the family holdings in Amn. Lionel was born in 1355 DR... making him 53 years of age in 1408 DR. If Lionel claims the crown of Corwell in 1408 DR and then Cymidei massacres the fey in 1411 DR, I feel like the title of "Crown Princess" refers to the throne of Caer Corwell and that she is Lionel's daughter.

Also, in 1385 DR Lionel is supposed to have a mercenary force he intends to use to take the crown of the Moonshaes from the Kendrick family. Then the Spellplague happens and he spends the next two decades rebuilding. So the 1385 DR to 1408 DR time frame works okay in getting him and his to Corwell. So I could make Cymidei Carrathal's date of birth 1391 DR, making her 19 years of age in 1411 DR when she orders the fey massacre.

Which brings to mind the question of WHY did she lead a force that massacred the fey living in Deachtere Wood? The Wood is very near Cantrev Dynnatt. I've been thinking that there might have been a romantic connection between Cymidei and the Laird/Son of the Laird of Cantrev Dynnatt. This romantic lead runs afoul of some sort of fey creature while hunting in Deachtere Wood. The death/horrible maiming and disfigurement of her beloved sends Cymidei into a murderous rage leading her to do the terrible deed. And this leads into Lady Ordalf of Sarifal ordering all non fey to be driven from Gwynneth. Cymidei Carrathal, knowing she is in great danger, leaves the Moonshaes and returns to her family's modest holdings in Amn.

Cymidei's son (needs a name... something from the Dynnatt family), born in 1422 DR, will have a son, Llyr Carrathal (working name for the moment), in 1447 DR. This should, if I have this correct, brings me up to the most current in the lineage of Carrathal. Llyr Carrathal would be 43 years of age in 1493 DR.

One last note on the Carrathal family line, in 1413 DR Lionel Carrathal attempts to flee Caer Corwell, but his ship is sunk in the Corwell Firth by a Leviathan... all hands lost.

I did a keyword search of GHotR for Carrathal and got zero hits, so I'm not sure. Dragon Magazine #362 has this...

"Reginald 1312 1332/1346 Third son of Alec IV; murdered by the traitorous black wizard
Cyndre.

Brynth* 1334 -- Bastard son of Reginald; raised in Amn with his birthmother;
slain by wererats in 1371.

Lionel* 1355 -- Grandson of Reginald; son of Brynth.

*Did not rule; marked for line of succession."

I don't have a canonical source for High Queen Alicia's death. One source I've been using, a web site called History of the Forgotten Realms, places her death about 1407 DR. So that would make High King Derid over 86 years of age in 1493 DR if he were her son.

Queen Alicia Kendrick of the Moonshae Isles weds Keane in 1369 DR. High King Keane dies in 1373 DR. So, if they have a daughter, Feithline, she would need to be born in 1372 DR. This would make her 35-36 years of age when she ascends the throne of the High Queen in 1407-8 DR.

At this point it looks like I'm going to need to create a son for Feithline who would be the father of Derid Kendrick... Derid being born in 1428 DR to be 65 years of age in 1493 DR.

Well, I'm not sure if that was worth the effort, but it at least helped me to get my thoughts down on the "page" as it were. If anyone has a better idea I'm certainly open.
Thanks!
Gary Dallison Posted - 02 Dec 2020 : 22:03:26
As a general rule of thumb there is a 20-30 year generational gap, which is the time it takes for a human to grow to adulthood and have kids and is roughly the same amount of time for their parents to age and die.

To keep it interesting you vary the times per individual having some die young and others live long.

Derid is king In 1490 so it is very unlikely that he was a sibling to a princess in 1410 given that alicia was queen in the 1370s and probably had children shortly after that (a monarchy needs to have a clear future dynasty to ensure long term stability).

1410 would put feithline Kendrick as a possible daughter of Alicia, maybe a grandaughter.

Derid could be Feithlines son, but he would be over 100 in 1490. Most likely he is a grandson or great grandson or even great great grandson (if they had kids young and there were lots of tumultuous events to prune the family tree and encourage early parenthood).

Crown Princess is an odd title to be given to a Carrathal given that the lineage died out or lost its claim to rulership.

If Lionel were a brother he would be Crown Prince. If he were a son he would be a prince I suppose but then she would be wed and might not be a Carrathal anymore.

I recall in GHoTR that the Carrathals died out at least in those descended from Reginald. Mayhaps one of these had a sister who claimed the title Crown Princess and her children took the title.
Cymidei could be one of those descendants and Lionel could be her husband. They both seem to be working together against the Kendricks and likely had support among the ffolk that weren't happy about losing Corwell to the Fey.
wildeman Posted - 02 Dec 2020 : 21:42:27
George,
Thanks for the update. I PMed BRJ concerning this hoping to get some clarification, but have received no response.

I guess I will do my best to place the two into their respective timelines/lineages... they aren't really critical so much as loose ends I was trying to tie up.

Anyway. Thanks for the help.
George Krashos Posted - 02 Dec 2020 : 10:08:21
The only person who can help is Brian R James, author of GHotR, who decided to continue the history of the Moonshaes post-Spellplague on the WotC forums (now defunct). This was fanlore and in no way official. It has not been revisited since and Brian has moved away from the Realms. I suggest you make some stuff up.

-- George Krashos
wildeman Posted - 02 Dec 2020 : 06:20:28
Hello All,
I'm hoping I can get some assistance figuring out the lineage of a couple of npcs. One is from the Carrathal fanily and the other is from the Kendrick family.

1411 DR (Year of the Wrathful Vizier)
Crown Princess Cymidei Carrathal of the Moonshae Isles leads a massacre of all fey dwelling within Deachtere Wood southeast of Cantrev Dynnatt.

I can't figure out if Cymidei is Lionel's daughter or sister. I'm feeling like she is his daughter. Anyone know?


1408 DR (Year of the Solitary Cloister)
In the Moonshae Isles, Lionel Carrathal claims the throne of Corwell in challenge to newly ascended High Queen Feithline Kendrick of Callidyrr.

Again, can't place the lineage of Feithline. Elder sister of Derid Kendrick?

If anyone can help it will be greatly appreciated.
cpthero2 Posted - 14 Sep 2020 : 19:21:42
Learned Scribe ElfBane,

It is odd, I must say. It's so spotty in that you can easily find Cymrych Hugh as first High King, and find a few others here and there, but nothing substantial, which is odd with the considerable history and seeming continuity of rulers.

Best regards,


Gary Dallison Posted - 25 May 2020 : 18:38:45
Good to know my years spent playing crusader kings 2 were not entirely wasted.

From what I can gather elective succession is not uncommon in tribal societies and looking at the cymrych dynasty you can see that occasionally a third son inherits before a 2nd son and that is likely only possible with an elective succession

Because there are dynasties it must have been elective within a dynasty (tanistry) and because the other ffolk kingdoms were founded after the formation of callidyrr it is likely that they inherited their governance from the high kingdom.

Yes corwell is a special case because it was originally governed directly from callidyrr (as cymrych hugh was king of both) and set a regent to govern corwell, but tribes and nobility tend to get angry if they have their noble rights removed so a tanistry succession is the sensible option in all cases.
The fact that it reverts to the high kings judgement if no heir is selected is probably a law from the time of the mad high king who slew and entire dynasty and moved his capital to corwell (so he could seize control of it).

Anyways, ramblings over. I'm fairly certain all the canon points to tanistry a d the lack of a suitable heir means Tristan must have been the last of his dynasty. Another dynasty could have been chosen but that requires the agreement of all the clans of corwell or a ruling from the high king.
Plus it's an easy get out for those developing the moonshaes as it means Tristan is the last surviving kendrick so no more detailing is required for claimants.
ElfBane Posted - 25 May 2020 : 18:18:16
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

When I say elective I mean elective from within the same dynasty (I think it's called tanist succession).



Yes, that system is called tanistry.
Gary Dallison Posted - 25 May 2020 : 16:29:43
When I say elective I mean elective from within the same dynasty (I think it's called tanist succession).

So the clans could elect who they wanted to rule but only from within the same family. When that family line ends (or in the case of tristan there are no suitable heirs) then it falls back to the ancient high kings law (the high king chooses).

I eventually ran out of motivation and material but hope to one day come back to this. The crux of the issue of Tristan kendricks succession crisis was that he was the last of the line and so even in a tanist succession model that causes a problem.

ElfBane Posted - 25 May 2020 : 16:23:41
Will there ever be a dynastic listing of the monarchies of the Ffolk? Since the policy is to have them elective, then you would have to spend some time creating a nobility/clans/gentry that would comprise the pool of candidates.

And if we can't have them all, how about the line of the Corwell Kendricks, including the ones that were "passed over", if any.
cpthero2 Posted - 24 Feb 2020 : 20:35:21
Eric,

I'm not much in inquiring mind as a water testing toe-tipper so that I can make that acrobatics check to spin out and live! haha

So...when do we get these amazing things? :)

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd

OK, here's a weird one ... not sure I should bring it up. Have you looked at Realmspace, pages 55-56? Curious about Omar McDauphin, now a stone giant? Curious about the origins of the Dark Moon assassins? Curious where Iron Keep Bay came from?

Inquiring minds should not want to know ...

cpthero2 Posted - 24 Feb 2020 : 20:32:35
Eric,

I'm not much in inquiring mind as a water testing toe-tipper so that I can make that acrobatics check to spin out and live! haha

So...when do we get these amazing things? :)

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd

OK, here's a weird one ... not sure I should bring it up. Have you looked at Realmspace, pages 55-56? Curious about Omar McDauphin, now a stone giant? Curious about the origins of the Dark Moon assassins? Curious where Iron Keep Bay came from?

Inquiring minds should not want to know ...

Gary Dallison Posted - 08 Dec 2019 : 16:58:25
I'm very interested to know your plans for the dark moon. I am conscious that I likely violated canon but could not resolve that semi realms resource to the reality.

A century ago (which I think is the timeframe it gives in realm space) contradicts novel lore regarding Oman, it also goes against the trend of declining power in the ffolk kingdoms and a lack of cooperation among them. If a single ffolk kingdom were able to take back a portion of Oman from the soon to be most powerful northmen nation in the moonshaes then the present of the moonshaes would look very different.

So I decided a century could have meant centuries, or perhaps that source was written a long time ago and described an event more recent to that.

Just my thoughts, I'm more than happy to discuss all the sources and my reasoning and potential developments if you want (email is fine if you want to not give away any hints)
Gary Dallison Posted - 08 Dec 2019 : 16:16:40
I also made iron keep the former site of the capital of the firbolg empire that once covered much of the moonshaes (which grond was ruler of.

The ruins were ancient and occupied by giants, so the ffolk and northmen had to periodically clear them out only for the giants to return.

At least that's what I've done with them. There really isn't any other lore available.
Gary Dallison Posted - 08 Dec 2019 : 13:47:30
I have looked at Omar macdauphin and I decided that the mention of his events being recent was a mistake or a relative version of recent. After coming up with a timeline for everything I figure the northmen conquered Oman in 761 dr and that Omar macdauphin couldn't have a castle on the island after that date.

So I made the disappearance of his castle leave a huge hole in defences on the island and allowed the northmen to conquer it. The northmen invasion prompted his badly worded wish which inadvertently made the invasion successful.

The dark moon I have as a wolf shape shifting group of assassins that live in the feywild / plane of faeree, and have been used to kill a number of ffolk and northmen kings (they tried to kill high king tanner (or perhaps byron, I forget now). They use the moonwells and faerie crossroads to get where they need and then change into a wolf and eat their target. Those who fail to kill the target are killed so many flee into exile.


Just my thoughts
ericlboyd Posted - 08 Dec 2019 : 13:32:33
OK, here's a weird one ... not sure I should bring it up. Have you looked at Realmspace, pages 55-56? Curious about Omar McDauphin, now a stone giant? Curious about the origins of the Dark Moon assassins? Curious where Iron Keep Bay came from?

Inquiring minds should not want to know ...
Gary Dallison Posted - 06 Dec 2019 : 10:14:06
In the end I went for all monarchies in the moonshaes are a form of elected monarchy (except for the high king and now callidyrr which have hereditary monarchies).

So the clans elect a king from within a hereditary dynasty. This is just a formality however and in almost all instances the title passes from father to eldest child unless they are deemed wholly unsuitable (like Tristan due to his age and behaviour).

I figure the current and middle ages behaviour of Scottish nobility was all derived and inherited from exposure to England (via conquest or just imitation) so I ignored almost all of that and went back to a time without a hereditary monarchy where the clans owned the land. The king therefore had to keep the support of the clans or else risk being deposed and so a peripatetic monarchy helps a king do that (spending time with all clans).

The king is therefore more of a peacekeeper in early moonshae society. Centrally powerful kingdoms like callidyrr eroded the power of the clans completely and have all but removed them from society. Corwell is less centralised than callidyrr and so has turned the clans into a form of hereditary nobility (making them barons of a sort but the title is owned by the clan as a whole). While moray is a weakly centralised monarchy and so has remained in the same ancient clan structure of the moonshae isles (with a few exceptions).

I tried to make it as workable and fluid as possible within the bounds of history using what information was available on the moonshaes (callidyrr had Earl's so that were feudal nobility, corwell had clans voting for a king so they were at least part tanistry, moray had no castle so was not centralised at all).

I agree the opportunity for intrigue is greater in moray but I don't think the ffolk are like that. I'm not sure any of the clans want to be king really, it's hard work and they don't gain much more power than they have now. Intrigue is much more prevalent in callidyrr with the significant tethyrian heritage.
ElfBane Posted - 06 Dec 2019 : 09:54:39
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison




The clan rule of Scotland is only well detailed by the time England gets involved and brings along the more familiar noble feudal system which I'm hoping to avoid as that seems more like callidyrr where you have noble lords dividing up the land and clans ruling that land for them operating as sheriff's and tax collectors and police.

I'm hoping to come up with a system just prior to the middle ages but with a king. I figure the clans are like mafia families (But nicer). However it is the king to clan relationship that is bothersome. If a king grants landed titles to someone they immediately become noble and you have the problem of inheritance and permanent ownership.

I'm trying to imagine something more fluid whereby the ownership comes purely from staking a claim to that land and providing the necessary tithe and tribute to the king. That way another clan can muscle in if he can enforce protection from the inhabitants and pay the tithe and tribute to the king. This sometimes results in tithes being paid double for the same region and two clans claiming ownership of the same land but that is costly and cannot continue for long.




You may want to research the concept of "feudal Baronies". Scotland had a number of these, and a handful of these barons persisted until relatively recently (they were legislated out of existence).
A "feudal" baron held his title based on the ownership of a specific land area. The title was NOT hereditary, though as long as you had sons for heirs, the title became effectively hereditary.
If the holder of a feudal barony wished to, he could sell the land to, say, a prosperous and wealthy yeoman, thus making him a nobleman. He (the yeoman) would have to be accepted by King and parliament to be formally "seated", but that was usually taken care of by the yeoman greasing the wheels, so to speak.

I think making the king peripatetic would not be doable in a hereditary monarchy, but would be the norm in an elected one. Regardless of whether the king is elected or hereditary, there would need to be a "neutral" gathering place for feuding clans and to be able to meet without conflict (the Moonshaes version of Tara).

However, making the king peripatetic WOULD introduce a LOT of intrigue, if that's what you're after, go for it!
Gary Dallison Posted - 04 Dec 2019 : 11:50:40
The Cymrych Dynasty is detailed in Dragon Magazine 362, as far as i know it was available on the WoTC website for a period of time, but i'm not sure how you can get a copy of that now.
ElfBane Posted - 04 Dec 2019 : 11:39:17
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

More randomness, this time relating to the lineage of Callidyrr.

quote:
HK Cymrych: Born 171, Reigned 193/250*, First son of Callidyrr; died of wounds suffered years earlier in combat against Kazgoroth.
Christopher Riker: [R] Born 174, Regent [201/250], Champion of Cymrych Hugh; named regent of Corwell in 201; died in 256.
Cedric Riker: [R] Born 198, Regent [250/272], Son of Reagent Christopher Koart.
Cymrych Dynasty of Callidyrr
HK Warren I: Born 237, Reigned 250/259, First son of Cymrych Hugh; died of illness.
HQ Tamara: Born 238, Reigned 259/263, First daughter of Cymrych Hugh; poisoned
HK Carrig I: Born 244, Reigned 263/287, Second son of Cymrych Hugh; died in combat against Northmen invaders.
HK Gwylloch: Born 265, Reigned 287/299, First son of Carrig I; driven mad and died in suicidal orgy of combat within his court at the Palace of Skulls.
HK Gorham: Born 270, Reigned 299/322, Second son of Carrig I; slain by Markus.
HK Markus: Born 288, Reigned 322/333, Second son of Gwylloch; died in combat.
HK Cameron "the Wise": Born 291, Reigned 333/370, Grandson of Warren I; died of natural causes.



At first everything looks fine. Cymrych Hugh rules from 193-250 DR and he dies of wounds suffered by Kazgoroth. Then we see he has a regent from 201-250 DR who is only named regent of Corwell.

So Cyrmrych Hugh is already King of Corwell, he unites Callidyrr and moves his house to Callidyrr in 201 DR leaving a regent to rule Corwell.

What is weird is the rule of Callidyrr after Cymrych Hugh. It passes to his first son Warren I who takes the throne aged 13 and dies aged 22 of disease. Then it passes to Cymrych Hugh's first daughter who dies age 25 of poisoning. Then it passes to Cymrych Hugh's second son Carrig I.

That in itself is strange. Normally I would expect a kingdom to be primogenitor in that it passes to the eldest children in order until one of them has a child. Of course whether a society favours males or males and females depends on whether it goes to sons only or not.
However this title appears to pass through the children in age order.


Then the next set of kings are the first son of Carrig, the second son of Carrig, and then the second son of the first son of Carrig before passing to the Grandson of Cymrych Hugh's first son Warren I.


What the hell kind of succession law is that. If Warren I had a son (which he obviously did) then the title should have ignored Cymrych Hugh's daughter and second son completely and passed to Warren I's son before passing to his grandson.

The only thing I can think of is that in the beginning, the High King of the Moonshae was an elective title, i.e. all the Cantrev lords voted who they wanted to be High King (or Queen) and maybe it was Cameron the Wise (grandson of Warren I) that changed the succession law to be primogenitor (eldest child of that dynasty), which is probably what made him wise in the first place.

It certainly seems that the early kings of the Hugh dynasty were killed off in various accidents and plots that were likely backed or orchestrated by cantrev lords that wanted their favoured candidate to be High King (so he could reward them).




Sorry about the thread necromancy, but here goes;
Where did you find the Callidyrr lineage quoted at the top of your post? I have a complete copy of this lineage, but I can't for the life of me remember where I got it.

I have the GHotR 2007 edition, and I don't see that anywhere in there... would you give me a page # or a DR year?

I also don't see a lineage for Callidyrr in the "monarchies" section.
Thanks!

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