| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| jordanz |
Posted - 31 Jul 2014 : 00:38:20
Is it me or is there somewhat of a shortage of true tragic figures in the realms?
Karsus might be the first name of your tongue, but in my opinion his lack of Wisdom did him in. It's hard for me to feel sorry for the guy, especially since he wasn't known as a particularly heroic type. I do understand that "heroism" can be perceived subjectively.
Cadderly,
Warning possible Ghost King Spoilers
Devoted chosen of Denier, seems like a good candidate. The guy practically gives his life serving his god. He's rewarded with a restoration of his youth, but then he gets to spend the rest of eternity battling the ghost King? I don't know what he's thinking but I doubt he signed up for that!
Warning possible "Haunted Lands" Spoilers
Bareris This poor guy...his soulmate gets turned into an undead thing and later gets decapitated. He then gets turned into an undead revenant and spends the next 90 years trying to get at the one responsible for her death- Szass Tam.
So he finally is able to get close enough attempt a kill while Tam is completely vulnerable.
Instead he forgoes revenge in order to help save the realms by teaming up with Tam and company. When he finally gets his crack, he gets taken out with a whimper, while Tam endures.. :(
Comments or examples of other tragic character would be welcomed. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 11 Aug 2014 : 18:58:58
We know that garnet freed the Nycaloths - perhaps some of the High Magi figured it out - but that is not something Garnet or most anyone else ever knew. We only know because of the partially omniscient history they gave. That said, I'd agree Garnet to be tragic because of all the loss of the fall - but no more so than any of the other heroes of myth drannor. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 11 Aug 2014 : 17:16:54
quote:
Originally posted by Krafus
It's been a long while since I read the history of Myth Drannor, but wasn't its downfall indirectly caused by a red dragon that was raised to be a good being, which was the symbolic key needed to release from magical imprisonment the trio of nycaloths who assembled the Army of Darkness and marched it on Myth Drannor? IIRC, that dragon later died fighting against the monsters he'd inadvertently released. Imagine being at least partly responsible for the downfall of one of the greatest civilizations Faerun has ever seen.
That is certainly tragic... But Garnet's ultimate fate has never been revealed. Garnet disappeared and was never seen again. |
| Krafus |
Posted - 11 Aug 2014 : 14:45:41
It's been a long while since I read the history of Myth Drannor, but wasn't its downfall indirectly caused by a red dragon that was raised to be a good being, which was the symbolic key needed to release from magical imprisonment the trio of nycaloths who assembled the Army of Darkness and marched it on Myth Drannor? IIRC, that dragon later died fighting against the monsters he'd inadvertently released. Imagine being at least partly responsible for the downfall of one of the greatest civilizations Faerun has ever seen. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 11 Aug 2014 : 05:39:10
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
How about Atreus Eleint? The poor guy was not exactly a looker and yet wanted to be a priest of the goddess of beauty. It then set him on a fantastic quest for beauty that led to the most notoriously abrupt ending of any FR novel ever written (IMHO).
As I recall, I hated the ending of that book so much I wanted to throw the book across the room. Only two Realms novels have done that for me. |
| Seethyr |
Posted - 11 Aug 2014 : 04:41:46
How about Atreus Eleint? The poor guy was not exactly a looker and yet wanted to be a priest of the goddess of beauty. It then set him on a fantastic quest for beauty that led to the most notoriously abrupt ending of any FR novel ever written (IMHO). |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 11 Aug 2014 : 01:10:45
I think Elaith failed to be worthy of the moonblade because of his failure to be his own person. He embraced the role of being a model elven warrior because it was expected of him, not because he wanted to be a model elven warrior, and not because he truly wanted to serve his people.
I think the moonblade's rejection of him was based on the fact that at that time, the core of his personality was simply going with the flow -- which is not an admirable trait for someone who is expected to dedicate himself, heart and soul, to serving the People.
In fact, it's not until Elaith reawakens the moonblade that we see him throw himself into something heart and soul -- and even with that, he still harbored some serious self-doubt about who he was, as seen in The Dream Spheres.
That's part of why I like Elaine's writing so much -- you can get into the mind of her characters so much better than anyone else's. I personally feel that I have a better understanding of Elaith, Arilyn, and Danilo than I do of any other Realms characters, even those who have been in many more books. |
| Firestorm |
Posted - 11 Aug 2014 : 00:37:05
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I stand corrected on the dormancy/judgement thing. However, I will continue to maintain that Elaith was not initially evil, and would not have fallen if it hadn't been for the moonblade's rejection of him causing him to become unmoored and lost. There is nothing to indicate he was evil or even had darker tendencies before he was found wanting and threw himself into the role of a bad guy.
Agreed.
I think he was merely not judged as honorable and good. The more wielders a moonblade has, the harder the test of claiming a blade becomes even for those of a goodly weal. it was designed as such so only the most honorable of lines(Whoever had the most moonblades) took rulership.
The elves knew drawing the blade was death or dishonor if it judged them unworthy. Obviously nobody who drew the blade and failed expected to die. Most probably thought of themselves as good and honorable.
The blade may have judged him as "neutral", in the sense that he was not honorable because it was in his heart. He was merely doing good and the right thing because it was expected of him, and sensed he could turn the other way.
That was the sense I got reading his short story on failing to draw the blade(Which was a great read) |
| Magor |
Posted - 09 Aug 2014 : 18:54:14
My first choice would be Zaknafein Do'Urden, because the way he was presented by RAS never made me feel comfortable with how he ended up dead so soon. There could have been so much more Zaknafein and so much more Menzoberranzan if only RAS didn't rush through Drizzt's background history so damn fast.
Second pick would be Sammaster. I very much liked what I read about him and it is clear that he depicts most perfectly what one has to call a tragedy of choices in life. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 06 Aug 2014 : 15:06:44
I stand corrected on the dormancy/judgement thing. However, I will continue to maintain that Elaith was not initially evil, and would not have fallen if it hadn't been for the moonblade's rejection of him causing him to become unmoored and lost. There is nothing to indicate he was evil or even had darker tendencies before he was found wanting and threw himself into the role of a bad guy. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 06 Aug 2014 : 05:45:00
Now, I would agree that failing the blade ritual does not in and of itself reveal his dark tendencies, he could have been found wanting for many reasons. His actions afterward reveal that. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 06 Aug 2014 : 05:34:03
This is the passage from Evermeet: Island Of The Elves that describes the moonblades falling dormant and the reason. The red sections are those that explain that they failed and were spared.
"Amlaruil had never seen the ceremony in which the swords were claimed.
It was beautiful, and it was terrible. The recent battles had left several swords unclaimed. Ten elves, all nobles of ancient house and good reputation, pledged themselves to the power of the swords and the service of the People. Of them, only six survived the ceremony.
For two of these survivors, there was no triumph. The magic in the blades they held went silent and dormant in their hands. They had been proved unequal to the task of wielding the powers within their family blades; as the last living descendant of the original wielders, they were spared a sudden death. The expression of stunned disbelief on the two elves' faces suggested that they would perhaps have preferred death to this living realization of their loss.
In the heavy silence that followed the first claiming, the four Moon elf houses who had lost their first and best hope of the future tried again, and yet again, to claim the honor of Evermeet's throne.
Amlaruil's eyes burned with tears of mingled pride and grief as she watched one young elf after another step forward to die, like so many moths flinging themselves against the seductive promise of a lantern's heat and light.
Yet not one of the elven houses yielded, not until the last surviving member of the clan stood alive, but defeated. Their moonblades, their task of selection completed, went dormant at last. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 06 Aug 2014 : 04:36:06
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I disagree that he was always evil.
I think he was neutral before he drew the moonblade. And the moonblade didn't judge him negatively -- it went dormant, indicating he was the last of his line.
They only go dormant for the last in the line if they first judge negatively. Instead of killing him as it normally would have, it let him live that he might have children and that he and his family might be redeemed. Its a hopeful mercy.
Also, there are some times when you see him where he is just plain evil. He guts people like fish for pleasure or profit. He uses poisons that cause pain and take time to relish it. He enjoys being feared but hates being seen as what he is by his people. This is not a person who became a crime lord to fill his spare time - its what he was always meant for.
The tragedy is, I think, that part of him wishes he was not evil. That he was the 'perfect elf ideal' that he seemed to be and was expected to be as a guard captain in Evermeet. He struggles with these feelings in Elfsong and later in some short stories. I think again and again he has to comes to accept that he is what he is, not what he is expected to be.
No, a negative judgment means a fried elf. They go dormant at the end of a line because at that point, it's obvious that family is not suitable for being rulers -- not having heirs, and all that.
I think the struggles we see from Elaith are when he realizes he could be more, and is torn between being free and following the expectations of others as he always has. That's nicely illustrated in The Dream Spheres, where he steals what he thinks is the mhoarkiira hadryad as a test of himself, to see if he is condemned to be what he has been or if he can be free of his past. |
| Firestorm |
Posted - 06 Aug 2014 : 03:00:12
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I disagree that he was always evil.
I think he was neutral before he drew the moonblade. And the moonblade didn't judge him negatively -- it went dormant, indicating he was the last of his line.
Elaith had always defined himself against the expectations of others, and when the moonblade went dormant, it wasn't something he was prepared to deal with. All of the expectations people held for him were shattered. He went from knowing how every day of his life would play out to not knowing how the rest of the day would go...
Because he was no longer "elf enough" and because his betrothal had been annulled, he left Evermeet, looking for a new role to fill. He wasn't really looking to make his own way in life, he was just in motion because he didn't know what else to do... And then a new role presented itself to him, and he threw himself into it. He embraced his new role; partially because it was a new path for him, and partially because it allowed him to forget himself.
There are a lot of places in the books where you see that of him: he acts a particular way because it's expected, and not out of any really desire or goal.
Elaith is one of my fave Realms characters, and I think he's quite fascinating. His villainy is all the more intriguing because of his nature.
Agreed sir :) |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 06 Aug 2014 : 01:11:23
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I disagree that he was always evil.
I think he was neutral before he drew the moonblade. And the moonblade didn't judge him negatively -- it went dormant, indicating he was the last of his line.
They only go dormant for the last in the line if they first judge negatively. Instead of killing him as it normally would have, it let him live that he might have children and that he and his family might be redeemed. Its a hopeful mercy.
Also, there are some times when you see him where he is just plain evil. He guts people like fish for pleasure or profit. He uses poisons that cause pain and take time to relish it. He enjoys being feared but hates being seen as what he is by his people. This is not a person who became a crime lord to fill his spare time - its what he was always meant for.
The tragedy is, I think, that part of him wishes he was not evil. That he was the 'perfect elf ideal' that he seemed to be and was expected to be as a guard captain in Evermeet. He struggles with these feelings in Elfsong and later in some short stories. I think again and again he has to comes to accept that he is what he is, not what he is expected to be. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 06 Aug 2014 : 00:37:33
I disagree that he was always evil.
I think he was neutral before he drew the moonblade. And the moonblade didn't judge him negatively -- it went dormant, indicating he was the last of his line.
Elaith had always defined himself against the expectations of others, and when the moonblade went dormant, it wasn't something he was prepared to deal with. All of the expectations people held for him were shattered. He went from knowing how every day of his life would play out to not knowing how the rest of the day would go...
Because he was no longer "elf enough" and because his betrothal had been annulled, he left Evermeet, looking for a new role to fill. He wasn't really looking to make his own way in life, he was just in motion because he didn't know what else to do... And then a new role presented itself to him, and he threw himself into it. He embraced his new role; partially because it was a new path for him, and partially because it allowed him to forget himself.
There are a lot of places in the books where you see that of him: he acts a particular way because it's expected, and not out of any really desire or goal.
Elaith is one of my fave Realms characters, and I think he's quite fascinating. His villainy is all the more intriguing because of his nature. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 05 Aug 2014 : 23:25:47
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
Elaith Craulnober
An elf who does what is expected of him and does it better than anyone.
Was an elf expected to be great. Excelled at everything. Questioned nothing. Simply did as was expected.
Then his moonblade judged him dishonorable. It shocked him and he went into exile. Somehow, the moonblade had sensed some flaw in his honor he had yet to figure out.
Then he became a notorious crimelord. He figured he was expected to be dishonorable, so he did it better than anyone :)
God I love his character. It is simply a huge shame we never got resolution. I would buy without a seconds hesitation hardcovers of Reclamation and the serpent's daughter.
Why oh Why WOTC did you not put them out.
My way of reading it was that the blade judged based on his intentions and motivations. As you say, he always did the right thing, did what he was expected to, but not for the right reasons. His heart was not pure, and while he could hide that truth from everyone else and even lie to himself about it, the truth was he was always evil - the sword just gave him an excuse to loose that part of him.
But I agree - he's soooo good when he's bad :D |
| Firestorm |
Posted - 05 Aug 2014 : 15:27:12
Elaith Craulnober
An elf who does what is expected of him and does it better than anyone.
Was an elf expected to be great. Excelled at everything. Questioned nothing. Simply did as was expected.
Then his moonblade judged him dishonorable. It shocked him and he went into exile. Somehow, the moonblade had sensed some flaw in his honor he had yet to figure out.
Then he became a notorious crimelord. He figured he was expected to be dishonorable, so he did it better than anyone :)
God I love his character. It is simply a huge shame we never got resolution. I would buy without a seconds hesitation hardcovers of Reclamation and the serpent's daughter.
Why oh Why WOTC did you not put them out. |
| Thauranil |
Posted - 05 Aug 2014 : 13:40:10
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
Halisstra Melarn, tried to redeem herself but failed. Lost her lover and her whole family and was tortured and cruelly used by a goddess she personally despised.
She whined too much to be tragic. :P
I never said that she was likable . Frankly I Never cared much for her myself but she was certainly a tragic and pathetic figure. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 05 Aug 2014 : 10:59:10
Co-opted by Ravenloft. REAL shame. Someone should write the story of how he escapes :) |
| jordanz |
Posted - 05 Aug 2014 : 06:20:57
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
Jander Sunstar.
Ah, a very good call! Certainly one of the most tragic characters of the Realms.
Yeah - totally forgot him. My favorite vamp character ever.
What became of him? |
| silverwolfer |
Posted - 05 Aug 2014 : 04:25:11
who would have thought, FR supports transgenre |
| see |
Posted - 05 Aug 2014 : 03:28:09
quote:
Originally posted by silverwolfer
I don't remember the exact books, but they were a triology. The main premise was a guy who was such a wonderful architect and wasen't magical at all, to the point he was almost atheist, the book had things like naga and wonderful unsual monsters in it.
Anways the tragic character was this guys friend, who was less successful but knew how to mooch and take the credit, got mild successful but not spine. He got married to a woman who didn't want him to start with and was just bored. And he eventually lost her to an older gentelman who outright walked up to him and told him to scram he was claiming her now. He eventually was turned intoa ghoul, it was a depressing thing to read and see unfold.
Huh. That sounds like the plot of The Fountainhead in fantasy drag.
And Googling for "Forgotten Realms" "Fountainhead", hah -- the Watercourse Trilogy. Whisper of Waves, Lies of Light, and Scream of Stone. |
| silverwolfer |
Posted - 05 Aug 2014 : 02:11:22
I don't remember the exact books, but they were a triology. The main premise was a guy who was such a wonderful architect and wasen't magical at all, to the point he was almost atheist, the book had things like naga and wonderful unsual monsters in it.
Anways the tragic character was this guys friend, who was less successful but knew how to mooch and take the credit, got mild successful but not spine. He got married to a woman who didn't want him to start with and was just bored. And he eventually lost her to an older gentelman who outright walked up to him and told him to scram he was claiming her now. He eventually was turned intoa ghoul, it was a depressing thing to read and see unfold. |
| Arcanus |
Posted - 04 Aug 2014 : 23:55:36
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
Jander Sunstar.
Ah, a very good call! Certainly one of the most tragic characters of the Realms.
Yeah - totally forgot him. My favorite vamp character ever.
Mine too! |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 04 Aug 2014 : 23:09:35
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
Jander Sunstar.
Ah, a very good call! Certainly one of the most tragic characters of the Realms.
Yeah - totally forgot him. My favorite vamp character ever. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 04 Aug 2014 : 22:27:20
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
Jander Sunstar.
Ah, a very good call! Certainly one of the most tragic characters of the Realms. |
| Brian R. James |
Posted - 04 Aug 2014 : 21:17:58
Jander Sunstar. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 04 Aug 2014 : 17:27:51
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
Halisstra Melarn, tried to redeem herself but failed. Lost her lover and her whole family and was tortured and cruelly used by a goddess she personally despised.
She whined too much to be tragic. :P
I thought she was too indecisive... She waffled back and forth in her allegiances way too readily. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 04 Aug 2014 : 15:33:10
quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
Halisstra Melarn, tried to redeem herself but failed. Lost her lover and her whole family and was tortured and cruelly used by a goddess she personally despised.
She whined too much to be tragic. :P |
| Thauranil |
Posted - 04 Aug 2014 : 12:32:20
Halisstra Melarn, tried to redeem herself but failed. Lost her lover and her whole family and was tortured and cruelly used by a goddess she personally despised. |
