| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 11 Jan 2014 : 16:19:38
Just noting this from Grand History of the Realms
c. –3100 DR Human seafarers from the west name and settle the island of Ruathym [–4600,–3000] in the Sea of Swords.
This seems to be the first arrival of the Rus to Faerun, but not necessarily Toril. I know this isn't new news, but has anything else been previously released? I just wonder if these people aren't from the huge continent above Maztica (which some have labeled Anchorome) or the continent above that (which some have labeled Aurune). I also wonder if these people weren't followers of the Norse religion, given the whole Yggdrasil's child, the berserkers, use of rune magic, and the whole Viking naming structure and terms (like Dock-Alfar for dark elf). The reason I wonder this is I wonder if there isn't a whole continent out there which still to this day worships the entire Norse and possibly members of the Celtic pantheons (possibly under different names).
I also noted this lore, which indicates that this was an island inhabited by the seafaring dwarves of Haunghdannar, and they may have been severely reduced in population at the time of the arrival of the Rus, possibly leaving behind a lot of dwarven construction ready made for the Rus to move into.
c. –4600 DR The stone fortress of Sonnmorndin is built as a naval base by the Sailors of the Mountainous Waves, the marines of Haunghdannar, on the island of Arauwurbarak (present-day Ruathym [–3100]).
–3389 DR
The dwarf realm of Haunghdannar [–4974] falls. The sea is thought to have driven the dwarves of Haunghdannar mad; the realm rapidly dwindled as ship after ship that put out did not return, except for small fishing boats that never left the sight of land. The land was overrun by bugbears, trolls, ogres and orcs. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Baltas |
Posted - 22 Sep 2014 : 15:09:32
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
While working on Netheril I decided to treat the "dt" at the end of angardt like a language construct that subtly changes the meaning of the word (the only real world example I can think of is the monty python life of brian sketch where he writes "romans go home" ).
So for me dt made the word translate as "of the". So angardt means of the Angar tribe.
Rengarth was the name of the entire people but angardt was one tribe (until they got booted out). This of course gets used by the uthgar tribe because they adopt a bunch of Netheril survivors.
I used it for my vandaldt tribe which lived in vandal station in netheril.
Thats just my take on it.
You know dazzlerdal, that might be just it. I think I will adapt that in my campaign.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And things keep going round-N-round...
Shell is 'across the ocean from the Flanaes (Oerth/GH campaign setting), on the continent where New Empyrea is set' (where The Egg of Phoenix series takes place). In my Misbegotten Realms (mash-up setting), I pasted New Empyrea into the North, in the Daggerford region - it was a great fit; especially considering I have the entirety of GH to the west, in place of Anchormé (so Shell is precisely where it should be in regards to THAT setting). You can see a bit of that HERE. Shell is just south of Waterdeep - it was the northernmost town in the EoP material.
Very great stuff Markustay, I heard earlier about your plans to fuse/substitute Anchorome with Oerik, and loved that idea. Great to see progres on your Misbegotten Realms project, really can't wait to see more! It even fits wth Gary Gygax' original idea, that Kara-Tur would be to the west of Flaness. From a perspective of a person livin on Oerik, Kara-Tur can be seen as an land on the exteme West part of the world. Also, maybe the Northmen were a group of Suel, in this merged Grethawk/Realms setting?
I think there would be some barrier between Faerunian pantheon, and the Oerth Pantheons(Suel, Flan Oerdian, Baklunni...), but some gods could cross-over and be present on both continents, but often under diffent names.
Ehlonna - Mielikki
Karaan- Malar
Lovatar - Scahrossar
Pelor - a merged, more stable faze/incarnation/aspect of Amaunator/Lathander
Beory and Berei - Chauntea
Silvanus - Obad-Hai
Istus - the origin of the Zakharan Fate
EEG - Ghaunadaur
Moander - a mostly dead spect of Tharizdun?
Vatun - Uthgar? Vatun was said to appear very late, after the fall of Suel Empire, and there are some doubts on his connection to the rest of the Suel pantheon. Not to mention, Uthgar and Vatun are similar.
and more. What do you think?
|
| Markustay |
Posted - 21 Sep 2014 : 17:49:26
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
<snip> And on Oerth there is actually a village, Shell, where Finnish god, Ahto is worshiped, and The god Telchur tries to stop Loviatar from entering(or maybe re-entering?) Oerth. Although he may failed, as there is in Oerth a goddess very similar to Loviatar, Scahrossar. She was introduced to Greyhawk in the Book of Vile Darkness, along with Karaan, a deity strikingly similar to Malar. Although, on the other hand, some think that the gods introduced in that book aren't canonically in Oerth. <snip>
And things keep going round-N-round...
Shell is 'across the ocean from the Flanaes (Oerth/GH campaign setting), on the continent where New Empyrea is set' (where The Egg of Phoenix series takes place). In my Misbegotten Realms (mash-up setting), I pasted New Empyrea into the North, in the Daggerford region - it was a great fit; especially considering I have the entirety of GH to the west, in place of Anchormé (so Shell is precisely where it should be in regards to THAT setting). You can see a bit of that HERE. Shell is just south of Waterdeep - it was the northernmost town in the EoP material.
The main BBG from that series was 'Doc', who wound-up in The North (thats canon) after his banishment from New Empyrea. He used to hang out in the High Forest. All I did was move his 'old digs' closer (on the same planet). Whether you use any of that or not, Doc is canon, and shell is GH canon (where Doc is from), and "Doc's Island" from that series is close to Shell - its the northernmost island in that lower island chain just below Shell, near Seascarp (on the map link I posted - it coincides with the EoP map in that regard). So 'Doc' - who spent quite a bit of time in FR/The North - must be familiar with the Finnish panthoen as well. He wasn't around long enough, though, to give him credit for bringing them over.
So now you've given me something new to weave into my current game - I am heavily at work on my Misbegotten Realms maps for my 5e campaign. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 21 Sep 2014 : 13:43:54
While working on Netheril I decided to treat the "dt" at the end of angardt like a language construct that subtly changes the meaning of the word (the only real world example I can think of is the monty python life of brian sketch where he writes "romans go home" ).
So for me dt made the word translate as "of the". So angardt means of the Angar tribe.
Rengarth was the name of the entire people but angardt was one tribe (until they got booted out). This of course gets used by the uthgar tribe because they adopt a bunch of Netheril survivors.
I used it for my vandaldt tribe which lived in vandal station in netheril.
Thats just my take on it. |
| Baltas |
Posted - 21 Sep 2014 : 13:22:56
Hmm interesting. But I'm still wondering if there is any etymological connection the names Angardt and Uthgardt. Maybe "ardt" means something in Ulou? |
| Barastir |
Posted - 21 Sep 2014 : 03:37:55
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
...(aside from the fact Uthgar is a distorted version of Uther)...
Actually, originally it came from UTHer GARdolfsson, but in a revision the editors apparently lost the subtlety of it and renamed him Uthgar Gardolfsson.  |
| Baltas |
Posted - 18 Sep 2014 : 19:25:49
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I think the fascination is more with Netheril.
I agree. I've always been fascinated by the place also. But in historical terms, Netheril is a pup. It's just the first significant human civilisation that has received realmslore love.
-- George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
True, but its also the most ancient human civilisation that we have any significant quantity of lore about (even if the quality is suspect).
Being a fan of real world history (well English history anyway) im naturally drawn to the ancient realms of Faerun (which is why I like Mulhorand and Unther as well).
Yeah, Netheril, Unther and Mulhorand also brought up my interest in ancient civilisations of the Realms.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Concerning the 'ancient Gur migrations' (much of which is pure speculation) - The Moonsea wasn't always there. At least, not in the form it is now. Like everything else with the words 'moon' or 'star' in it (geographically), it was created by a tearfall (meteor strike). Thus, migrations by an early horse-riding people across the north-east should have been fairly simple (except, perhaps, for the fact there was a glacier there... but that could explain the ice hunters). The Rus are the equivalent of our RW Eurasian Nomads. This could explain why some Netherese look like Cimmerians. 
My own theory concerning the Moonsea is that it is a region that has suffered several tearfalls over countless milenia, some minor, some major. The greatest of these probably created the Moonsea as we know it today (a shallow strike, driving west-to-east), but before that, it may have been a series of lakes, or even just a river basin (with dozens of small rivers coming together over the region, to eventually coalesce into the Mighty Lis).
The Sea of Fallen Stars was also no-existant (in its present state) during the time of the Giant Empires, but I feel that was formed earlier on, in primordial times (prehisory in Earth terms). Giant History sort of ends around the time of its formation. Giant (and draconc) history make no mention of the Moonsea either... although its original name was the 'Dragon Sea'. Make of that what you will.
If we lump-in the 4e/Sundering lore, perhaps during that first, great 'Sundering' - when the world was ripped apart - there were massive tearfalls everywhere for some time (leftover bits?), or maybe, it was the sundering itself, and modern scholars are misinterpreting the events written in ancient giantish and Draconic histories (and perhaps the Elven and Dwarven histories... but I have another set of theories regarding the Dwarves and giants).
I wish I could say I find it amusing when artists draw 'historic' maps of FR that look very much like the modern layout... but I don't. Faerûn should be unrecognizable some 15-30,000 year ago.
EDIT: Looking back at the joke I made in the 1st paragraph... its entirely possible that I hit upon something. Considering the nature (and name!) of the 'Forgotten Realms', this would have been around the same time that Ed states our world and Toril had 'better connections'. The proto-Gur may have been tribes of Earth Horse nomads that wandered over. I had used some of this in my other musings, postulating that the old Finnish myths actually took place in the Gur lands, some 7-10,000 years ago. Those myths - revolving around a hag named Louhi - shoe-horn nicely with the Unapproachable East lore we have, and could be where we have gotten a few of our Finnish FR deities.
Hmm, Markustay, interesting that you mention Louhi, Iggwilv is suggested to be one and the same as this witch from Kalevala. A possible Earth-Oerth-Toril crossover?
[Edit]
Also, while Iggwilv is active mostly on Oerth, I don't think it was ever said she was born there. Baba Yaga's dancing Hut, is say to travel through planes and crystal spheres, so it's possible she was born on Toril, or Earth(or another world).
[Edit2]
And on Oerth there is actually a village, Shell, where Finnish god, Ahto is worshipped, and The god Telchur tries to stop Loviatar from entering(or maybe re-entering?) Oerth. Although he may failed, as there is in Oerth a goddess very similar to Lovatar, Scahrossar. She was introduced to Greyhawk in the Book of Vile Darkness, along with Karaan, a deity strikingly similar to Malar. Although, on the other hand, some think that the gods introduced in that book aren#8217;t canonically in Oerth
Maybe when the traffic between the worlds was better, there was much more crossing over between the worlds. Maybe Tyr, for example isn't just a native Faerunian deity, or interloper from the Norse pantheon, but equally member of both pantheons, with origins and stories on both Earth and Toril?
Ehlonna is also noted to be very similar to Mielikki, and they even share the same divine realm in Planescape. Both have also connections with the Elven Pantheon and Half-Elves. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 18 Sep 2014 : 02:35:28
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I can add that the extant fiction realmslore (specifically the Realms of the Dragons short story anthologies - there were two as I recall) showcase stories back in the Time of Dragons (i.e. -30,000 DR to -25,000 DR) which portray dragon-ruled realms with sophisticated human inhabitants/subjects. Now, I don't think that these short stories quite approached the subject matter appropriately within the context of the dates/times they are set in, or dealt with the topic in a uniform and lore-friendly fashion (neither did some of the stories in Realms of the Arcane for that matter), but the information provided shows to me that in small, localised areas of the Realms (and I stress the "small" aspect in this, which IMO is the only way this works) there were pockets of humans who were "civilised" by their dragon masters, experimented on to become better and smarter slaves/subjects (i.e. selective breeding programs or magical augmentation) and exposed to the Art so that when the dragons were gone (and in some cases I can see that it would have been their erstwhile slaves/subjects who caused them to "go") they retained a level of society/culture that translated into the first human settlements of note in the Realms. Some of those latched onto the giants next and were in turn being "raised up" by a different superior, more sophisticated social/cultural grouping but some just went it alone and from a small base, over time developed into the proto-human realms, of which we actually know very little.
This is how I see places like Thaeravel coming into being; the civilisation that existed in the modern Ride and built the Citadel of the Raven; the humans who built Urdrath of the Horsemen near Asbravn; the humans who built Ironfang Keep; etc. Of course, many of them burned brightly only for a short period and then lapsed back into barbarism as they continued to be preyed on by the dragons, the giants, the goblin kin and (yes) the elves and dwarves. I see the Proud People (the collective term for elves and dwarves in the Realms) actively working against humans and human realms in the earliest days of Realms history, as they competed for resources, living space and that most coveted of all things ... power.
The earliest history of humankind in the Realms remains a big mystery. Part of me wishes that it was mapped out and detailed. Another part of me welcomes the inherent mystery that remains, which allows tales to be woven and explanations given for this or that. The Realms has always thrived on "wiggle room". Over several decades, I have been extremely guilty of filling in a lot of historical gaps and taking up a decent chunk of wiggle room. Then again, lore always builds on lore. It's a balancing act to be sure, but there is still a huge expanse of Realms history, especially as it applies to humans, that people can play in. Threads like this show how healthy that can be, and moreover give creative sparks an opportunity to flare brightly. I enjoy all of these types of discussions. I don't always agree with what I read (just what is the fascination with the Gur anyway?!? ), but it always gets me thinking.
-- George Krashos
Well said, and I definitely agree on the representations of early human cultures being too civilized. I half wonder if many of those cultures included dragon-blooded humans leading them (in the same way that some dragons now like to interbreed with "lesser" beings like orcs, goblinkin, etc.... that are easy to control..... and how other cultures like Narfell had leaders "bred" upon them by demons), and as the dragon blood developed into sorcerous skill they realized the humans would be harder to control. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 17 Sep 2014 : 20:11:48
True, but its also the most ancient human civilisation that we have any significant quantity of lore about (even if the quality is suspect).
Being a fan of real world history (well English history anyway) im naturally drawn to the ancient realms of Faerun (which is why I like Mulhorand and Unther as well).
|
| George Krashos |
Posted - 17 Sep 2014 : 18:51:20
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I think the fascination is more with Netheril.
I agree. I've always been fascinated by the place also. But in historical terms, Netheril is a pup. It's just the first significant human civilisation that has received realmslore love.
-- George Krashos |
| Markustay |
Posted - 17 Sep 2014 : 17:26:12
Concerning the 'ancient Gur migrations' (much of which is pure speculation) - The Moonsea wasn't always there. At least, not in the form it is now. Like everything else with the words 'moon' or 'star' in it (geographically), it was created by a tearfall (meteor strike). Thus, migrations by an early horse-riding people across the north-east should have been fairly simple (except, perhaps, for the fact there was a glacier there... but that could explain the ice hunters). The Rus are the equivalent of our RW Eurasian Nomads. This could explain why some Netherese look like Cimmerians.
My own theory concerning the Moonsea is that it is a region that has suffered several tearfalls over countless milenia, some minor, some major. The greatest of these probably created the Moonsea as we know it today (a shallow strike, driving west-to-east), but before that, it may have been a series of lakes, or even just a river basin (with dozens of small rivers coming together over the region, to eventually coalesce into the Mighty Lis).
The Sea of Fallen Stars was also no-existant (in its present state) during the time of the Giant Empires, but I feel that was formed earlier on, in primordial times (prehisory in Earth terms). Giant History sort of ends around the time of its formation. Giant (and draconc) history make no mention of the Moonsea either... although its original name was the 'Dragon Sea'. Make of that what you will.
If we lump-in the 4e/Sundering lore, perhaps during that first, great 'Sundering' - when the world was ripped apart - there were massive tearfalls everywhere for some time (leftover bits?), or maybe, it was the sundering itself, and modern scholars are misinterpreting the events written in ancient giantish and Draconic histories (and perhaps the Elven and Dwarven histories... but I have another set of theories regarding the Dwarves and giants).
I wish I could say I find it amusing when artists draw 'historic' maps of FR that look very much like the modern layout... but I don't. Faerûn should be unrecognizable some 15-30,000 year ago.
EDIT: Looking back at the joke I made in the 1st paragraph... its entirely possible that I hit upon something. Considering the nature (and name!) of the 'Forgotten Realms', this would have been around the same time that Ed states our world and Toril had 'better connections'. The proto-Gur may have been tribes of Earth Horse nomads that wandered over. I had used some of this in my other musings, postulating that the old Finnish myths actually took place in the Gur lands, some 7-10,000 years ago. Those myths - revolving around a hag named Louhi - shoe-horn nicely with the Unapproachable East lore we have, and could be where we have gotten a few of our Finnish FR deities. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 17 Sep 2014 : 16:32:11
I think the fascination is more with Netheril. The Gur are just the justification for various theories since they are related somwhat.
I like your view of early humans (although i went with a different track for Thaeravel), it makes sense. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 17 Sep 2014 : 16:26:17
I can add that the extant fiction realmslore (specifically the Realms of the Dragons short story anthologies - there were two as I recall) showcase stories back in the Time of Dragons (i.e. -30,000 DR to -25,000 DR) which portray dragon-ruled realms with sophisticated human inhabitants/subjects. Now, I don't think that these short stories quite approached the subject matter appropriately within the context of the dates/times they are set in, or dealt with the topic in a uniform and lore-friendly fashion (neither did some of the stories in Realms of the Arcane for that matter), but the information provided shows to me that in small, localised areas of the Realms (and I stress the "small" aspect in this, which IMO is the only way this works) there were pockets of humans who were "civilised" by their dragon masters, experimented on to become better and smarter slaves/subjects (i.e. selective breeding programs or magical augmentation) and exposed to the Art so that when the dragons were gone (and in some cases I can see that it would have been their erstwhile slaves/subjects who caused them to "go") they retained a level of society/culture that translated into the first human settlements of note in the Realms. Some of those latched onto the giants next and were in turn being "raised up" by a different superior, more sophisticated social/cultural grouping but some just went it alone and from a small base, over time developed into the proto-human realms, of which we actually know very little.
This is how I see places like Thaeravel coming into being; the civilisation that existed in the modern Ride and built the Citadel of the Raven; the humans who built Urdrath of the Horsemen near Asbravn; the humans who built Ironfang Keep; etc. Of course, many of them burned brightly only for a short period and then lapsed back into barbarism as they continued to be preyed on by the dragons, the giants, the goblin kin and (yes) the elves and dwarves. I see the Proud People (the collective term for elves and dwarves in the Realms) actively working against humans and human realms in the earliest days of Realms history, as they competed for resources, living space and that most coveted of all things ... power.
The earliest history of humankind in the Realms remains a big mystery. Part of me wishes that it was mapped out and detailed. Another part of me welcomes the inherent mystery that remains, which allows tales to be woven and explanations given for this or that. The Realms has always thrived on "wiggle room". Over several decades, I have been extremely guilty of filling in a lot of historical gaps and taking up a decent chunk of wiggle room. Then again, lore always builds on lore. It's a balancing act to be sure, but there is still a huge expanse of Realms history, especially as it applies to humans, that people can play in. Threads like this show how healthy that can be, and moreover give creative sparks an opportunity to flare brightly. I enjoy all of these types of discussions. I don't always agree with what I read (just what is the fascination with the Gur anyway?!?), but it always gets me thinking.
-- George Krashos |
| Baltas |
Posted - 17 Sep 2014 : 11:32:39
Hey dazzlerdal, George Krashos, wrote an very interesting bit in the topic "Known Yuir Gods"
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I'm a fan of the concept that there were multiple regional pantheons with either separate, smaller deities or larger, current deities being worshipped with different names. One only has to read "Prayers of the Faithful" to see that Ed subscribes to the notion that gods in the Realms have multiple names. I would attribute some to rituals of worship, but others to the fact that deities swallowed up and subsumed a host of smaller deities when the Faerunian pantheon was established. So, in my Realms, the proto-humans who lived north of the great forests of Cormanthyr (and were responsible for building the Citadel of the Raven) worshipped Irmider who would later become a part of Silvanus, Enthandas as Selune, Arnaglaerus as Gond, etc. etc.
-- George Krashos
I think the area were this pantheons was worshipped, I think fits into the teritory of ancient Ice Hunters and Rengarth barbarians. Maybe this was their pantheon(along with Ulutiu), before The Ice Hunters started to worship henotheistic, shammanic religion, concentrated on Ulutiu, and Rengarth barbarians adopted a version of the Netherese Pantheon? |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 29 Aug 2014 : 10:40:44
Well theres always an aberration. I think icehunters had fair hair, but Talfirs had dark hair. Both mixed in the area between the Western Heartlands and the Netheril Basin so you could get dark or light hair.
The mention of Rashemi in the Gur description is only that they look like them and it is "thought" the rashemmi fled their homeland after the war that devastated it.
I actually subscribe to Markustay's theory in that the Gur people are descended from Netherese who in turn are descended from the Gur tribe in the Endless Wastes.
Around -5000 DR tribes led by the elder Shemen settled the lands that would become Rashemen.
In my thinking, they forced out the nomadic people that already lived there (horse nomads like other tribes in the endless wastes). Those tribes migrated west and moved into Narfell, Impiltur, the Vast, across the Moonsea, into the Ride and then finally the Netheril Basin.
That explains the Rashemmi looking features of the Gur who in actual fact arent descended from Rashemmi at all but from Gur who look similar.
The migration i explain by have them following the moon and moving on from hostile and occupied lands (Impiltur, Narfell, the Vast are all full of hobgoblins and dwarves and elves and dragons at this time).
They crossed the Moonsea when it was frozen (the high ice was much more extensive then and a line parallel from upper Damara to northern Anauroch was probably ice and tundra), and finally they rode through the elf and barbarian occupied The Ride (hence giving it its name) before arriving in the Netheril Basin where they settled in seven villages (for seven clans) on the south eastern shore of the Narrow Sea.
At least thats how i play it. Its all non-canon of course but i dont think it directly contradicts anything. |
| Baltas |
Posted - 29 Aug 2014 : 10:18:39
Hey, I reianalised some things, and I think it' a bit unclear if the Gurs are related to Netherese because of their Rashemi/Raumathan Roots, or if they just interbreed with Netherese survivors, like the Uthgardt barbarians, and Bedine. Also, I'm not sure if Rengarth were dark skined and dark haired, at least not universaly. Sunbright Steelshanks had blond hair, for example. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 28 Aug 2014 : 19:20:22
Well the Icehunters are known to predate the Illuskans (Northmen) and were displaced by them. Ice Hunters worship animal spirits and are now mingled with Ulutiuns.
However the Ulutiuns didn't form until -1648 DR, whereas the Ice Hunters were around before the Illuskan arrival in -3000 DR so it lends credence to Ice Hunters being more widespread throughout the North.
I think the Ice Hunters make up the racial stock of the Rengarth barbarians (both are dark skinned, stocky, and worship animal spirits and have a nomadic tribal existence), so in that respect the Ice Hunters probably did come to mix with the Netherese since they lived in the same area and interacted.
Canon of course says otherwise, but I'm doing an alternate take on Netheril that does it differently.
And as for primordial, gods, cosmic entities, etc. In issue VI of my fan mag I delve into the science of divinity somewhat and attempt to explain who is what and how. |
| Baltas |
Posted - 28 Aug 2014 : 17:04:00
Hmm, is the story that Seluna and Shar were originally Primordials canon? I thought it just was a popular theory? I use it in my game, but did some one confim it? I'm not sure if worship alone would transform a primordial into a god/estelar. The elemental lords, for example, get worship, and are still counted as primordials, the same with Ubtao. I think you a primordial must cut it's link with what it represents. Borem, who is most probably a primordial, was a muddy river when he was inactive. I think if he became a god, he wouldn't literally be a river/lake anymore, just became a god with the portfolio of rivers and mud(and boil?).
The Northmen seem to still have their own distinct language/languages, largely unrelated to other. Maybe their language was based on Joten(giant speech)? Giants are connected to primordials, and their pantheon is strongly Norse-like. Annam is, for example, almost identical to Odin, even using the All-Father's characteristic title, and even the obscure exile myth, along many things. Maybe Annam is Piranoth(the Primordial who the Giants ancestor/creator) son?
I just meant that the Ice Hunters might have been one of the groups, that intermingled into Netheril. I think that the Ice Hunters that mixed with Rashemi(and possibly Talfiri) became the Netherese, while the rest interbreed through the millennia with the northern Shou population, that canonically crossed the Sea of Moving Ice. Or maybe the Ice Hunters already had Shou features, they just vanished within the Netherili, because of the Rashemi, Talfiri, and much latter even Chondathan and Illuskan blood.
|
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 27 Aug 2014 : 08:16:18
Well since worshipping primordials turns them into gods (Shar and Selune) i moved away from "worship" of primordials in my abeir.
Instead i opted for something akin to pact magic where they gain a number of abilities by forming a pact with a primordial.
Their arrival on Toril roughly corresponds with the leaving of another sea faring race also mentioned in this thread through a rift in the Trackless Sea.
I didnt really go into the Northmen but i would imagine their early language would be that of primordials. However upon arriving in Faerun they wouldnt be able to communicate with anyone so it would be easier for them to just pick up whatever languages are nearby.
I think the Ice Hunters are one of the groups of original prehistoric like humans (like Talfir, and Turami) that dominated the land before other more aggressive human groups moved in. I always picture these ethnic groups as peaceful and in tune with nature and always get outcompeted by the warlike interlopers.
Issue 5 will detail my ideas for the northmen arrival and it should be out in a few days. |
| Baltas |
Posted - 26 Aug 2014 : 23:36:26
Interesting part about the Northmen being from Abeir. So did they worship originally the Primordials at first, and took their primal spirits from the Ice Hunters, or did they always worship them? Maybe the Giant’s are responsible for the northmen arrival, as Jhothûn(giant empire capital) is noted to have a lot of portals, and maybe through them the Illuskans came to Torill?
Also, I think that the Ice Hunters and Ulutiun may be descended from proto-netherese, or at least share ancestors with them as their language is related to Netherese, with both of them being in the Ulou language family. Maybe the Ulutiun are a Shou/proto-Netherese mix?
|
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 25 Aug 2014 : 21:08:05
quote:
I also remember thinking (at least at one point) that the "Northmen" came to the Sword Coast from another world (Earth?) through portals in the Trackless Sea.
Well I must have telepathically stolen that idea for my alternate dimensions fan mag as I have Northmen coming from Abeir. |
| ericlboyd |
Posted - 25 Aug 2014 : 20:55:17
Lots of cool ideas here George. I do remember having the idea that the arakhor could be the origin of the HostTower, in some fashion. I also remember thinking (at least at one point) that the "Northmen" came to the Sword Coast from another world (Earth?) through portals in the Trackless Sea. This would be consistent with Ed's original "Gates" article way back in the early days of Dragon. But, it could be that we started leaning the other way (Northmen came from elsewhere in the Realms) in later Realmslore and I'm not remembering it quite right.
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
You guys want to read the first couple of pages of FR5 The Savage Frontier to see how the original rise of humans in the North occurred. Canon has deviated somewhat from what is in there, but the main points are that originally North as we know it was dominated by the humans known as the Ice Hunters. The people of Netheril appear to have "always been there" but then finally unified together and swiftly grew in power thanks to the Art, and the Northmen were actually from the South.
As to that last point, given what we knew of the racial types present in the lands south of the Delimbiyr, it was difficult to reconcile a "tall, fair-haired warlike race" coming from Calimshan. My original North timeline had the -3000 DR Northmen come to the lands of the North in -200 DR and establishing settlements up the Sword Coast heading northward (i.e. that's why they were known as the "Northmen" and could be considered to "come from the south") around -150 DR. I originally considered that they came from the present-day Moonshae Isles. That take had to be changed to account for the write-up of the Illuskans in 'Races of Faerun'. I'm pretty sure that Eric did that write-up and I'm pretty sure that I decided that the Northmen came from the "unknown lands to the west" when I was doing my North Timelines over a decade ago and he weave fit into the write-up or he came up with it and I weaved it into my timeline. Memories are fuzzy after all that time. If I had my time over, I may have gone a different direction in that regard. Similarly, if I could change some of my Illusk stuff to account for the anomalous reference to the Hosstower in the 'Lords of Darkness' accessory, I would do that too. Of course, hindsight is a wonderful thing. After all, how was I to know that Salvatore would want to play with Gauntlgrym in his fiction and then choose to ignore my North Timeline references in doing so so many years later!
On that point, if I could "do it over", I would have had the Hosstower originally start as an arakhor (see Eric's Mintiper's Chapbook series) installed by Illefarn binding the primordial Maegera which had crawled out of Mount Hotenow. The original human settlement of Illusk would have been Ice Hunter humans who venerated the arakhor as a god, Jeriah Chronos took an interest in the place because of Maegera and was looking to control the arakhor and the primordial when the orcs came and blitzed the place. The arrival of the next lot Netherese after Karsus' Folly would have been prompted by Melathlar coming across a lore trove of Jeriah and finding out about Maegera. They would have travelled to Illusk to seek to control the arakhor and Maegera as a weapon against the phaerimm leading to the arakhor becoming petrified (i.e. becoming a stone tree) and Maegera being let loose until the elves of Iliyanbruen brought it under control again at the site of present-day Gauntlgrym. The destruction wreaked by Maegera through the Neverwinter woodlands would have been the cause of the enmity between Illusk and the elves of Ilianbruyen, leading to the war between them. Meanwhile, the dwarves of Delzoun would have come across Maegera and somehow convinced the elves to bind it to serve its current purpose - as an aside, this is the biggest weakness in Salvatore's plot thread on this. Just why would the elves of Iliyanbruen have assisted Netherese humans and/or the dwarves of Delzoun to bind Maegera in Gauntlgrym? Then again, his books don't acknowledge the earliest sources FR1 and FR5 that always stated that Gauntulgrym was a city built by the dwarves of Delzoun for humans. Ed has graciously stated that there was always a Gauntlgrym for dwarves and Gauntulgrym for humans, but he is renowned as being a generous sort ...
Anyway, I've digressed and wasted much of your time. The nature of the Netherese people and the "original" racial stock of the humans who lived in what we now call the Heartlands and Anauroch is a vexed one. I think that the Talfir are probably the answer, but there is so much empty space on this topic that it would take a huge amount of filling in to tie in all the disparate history, recognise what and who was there before, and give a clear, coherent rundown of human existence in that region between the Time of Dragons and the fall of Netheril. Anyone feeling masochistic?
-- George Krashos
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| Markustay |
Posted - 03 May 2014 : 17:29:46
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I just tried it a few times now but it hasn't worked yet. Maybe I need to boost my medi-chlorian count
I never medi-chlorian I didn't like.
badom-PAH! {we NEEED a rimshot smiley!} |
| Mapolq |
Posted - 02 May 2014 : 17:10:00
Well, that's a non-statement statement, from my point of view. Every company that owns an IP has the authority and can usually be considered to be willing to alter continuity under certain circumstances (believing otherwise is a delusion). It remains to be seen whether they'll throw the baby away with the bathwater, or at least try to fit in the nice stuff we got in the pre-Disney EU. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 02 May 2014 : 15:48:11
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Really, when did that happen. They have been writing those books for 20+ years and they just wipe them all away with a wave of the hand and a "Novels, there are no novels!" statement.
It happened just recently, after Disney announced new novels will be published under their aegis for the STAR WARS universe before the release of EPISODE VII.
Basically, Disney now have the authority to pick and choose what they want from the existing EU material, and give it credence [or not] in their future source material for the new line of novels they're publishing.
So while some existing EU events/characters may remain, I suspect they'll be reworked/tweaked slightly to fit in with whatever plans Disney have for making up their own unique STAR WARS EU material. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 02 May 2014 : 11:59:13
Really, when did that happen. They have been writing those books for 20+ years and they just wipe them all away with a wave of the hand and a "Novels, there are no novels!" statement.
If such a thing can happen then that gives me renewed hope for FR.
I just tried it a few times now but it hasnt worked yet. Maybe i need to boost my medi-chlorian count |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 02 May 2014 : 11:49:04
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
You smack him with a planetoid and he dies.
Of course how they brought him back i have no idea. Not that i ever read any of the star wars novels.
Easy -- the existing books are no longer canon. So, officially, nothing has happened in the Star Wars universe since the end of Return of the Jedi. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 02 May 2014 : 09:54:10
You smack him with a planetoid and he dies.
Of course how they brought him back i have no idea. Not that i ever read any of the star wars novels. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 02 May 2014 : 03:05:48
How do you lose a wookie? Is that possible? |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 02 May 2014 : 02:40:31
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Maybe Hasbro should do what Disney did, and just consider all non-game related material 'expanded universe' (Now 'Legends'). Novels should just be 'hearsay'.
It would solve a lot of continuity problems.
We even got back Chewbacca. 
We lost him?
Yup.
He was killed by Darth Drizzt
Is that the Darth who is all emo and wields two lightscimitars |
| Markustay |
Posted - 02 May 2014 : 02:33:15
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Maybe Hasbro should do what Disney did, and just consider all non-game related material 'expanded universe' (Now 'Legends'). Novels should just be 'hearsay'.
It would solve a lot of continuity problems.
We even got back Chewbacca.
We lost him?
Yup.
He was killed by Darth Drizzt |
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