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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 11 Jan 2014 :  16:19:38  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Just noting this from Grand History of the Realms

c. –3100 DR Human seafarers from the west name and settle the island of Ruathym [–4600,–3000] in the Sea of Swords.

This seems to be the first arrival of the Rus to Faerun, but not necessarily Toril. I know this isn't new news, but has anything else been previously released? I just wonder if these people aren't from the huge continent above Maztica (which some have labeled Anchorome) or the continent above that (which some have labeled Aurune). I also wonder if these people weren't followers of the Norse religion, given the whole Yggdrasil's child, the berserkers, use of rune magic, and the whole Viking naming structure and terms (like Dock-Alfar for dark elf). The reason I wonder this is I wonder if there isn't a whole continent out there which still to this day worships the entire Norse and possibly members of the Celtic pantheons (possibly under different names).

I also noted this lore, which indicates that this was an island inhabited by the seafaring dwarves of Haunghdannar, and they may have been severely reduced in population at the time of the arrival of the Rus, possibly leaving behind a lot of dwarven construction ready made for the Rus to move into.

c. –4600 DR The stone fortress of Sonnmorndin is built as a naval base by the Sailors of the Mountainous Waves, the marines of Haunghdannar, on the island of Arauwurbarak (present-day Ruathym [–3100]).

–3389 DR
The dwarf realm of Haunghdannar [–4974] falls. The sea is thought to have driven the dwarves of Haunghdannar mad; the realm rapidly dwindled as ship after ship that put out did not return, except for small fishing boats that never left the sight of land. The land was overrun by bugbears, trolls, ogres and orcs.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 11 Jan 2014 :  16:42:02  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I had asked Ed about this awhile back, I think even before the GHotR as released. The early North products also mention the Northmen (not the Rus - that is an entirely different group, a mixture of the Uthgardt who went through a portal and Rashemi, and they exist only in Rashemen) coming from "elsewhere". In fact, it hints that they came somewhere from the south before settling Rauthym, which is very weird.

I forget his exact answer, but because I pointed-out the weirdness with their direction of travel, his answer was along the lines of, "who said they were from Toril?" Something like that.

Anyhow, in my games I solved this simply by swapping-out Anchorome with Greyhawk, and those Northmen are the same ones from there (and its really a perfect fit, right down to the chain of far-northern islands stretching across the sea). That, of course, is super-mega homebrew (as in, the kind of homebrew that can NEVER be canon).

So, ummmm... yeah. Those could be REAL Vikings, for all we know. It would help explain how Tyr got into The Realms.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 11 Jan 2014 16:43:48
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 11 Jan 2014 :  17:33:12  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Correct me if I'm wrong on the below, but I think I've got the order right. I could have easily overlooked something. Essentially, the Rus seem to be of the stock of Ruathym, though one could say that they may also be a mixture of some of the northern stock as well. So, I guess my original name of this thread should have been the arrival of the Illuskans?

The modern-day Rashemi are a mixture of the Rus (an illuskan tribe that arrived via portal) and the Raumathari stock. The Rus that came over were already established in the north in -105 DR when the portal opened. So, the Rus are a name for the Northmen, though whether a subset or not... I can't say. However, those Rus are obviously related to the men of Ruathym. Since Ruathym established the colony of Luskan, they are in essence the source of the Rus.

-c3000 DR Illuskan humans of Ruathym [–3100, –69] found the settlement of Illusk [–2103] at the mouth of the River Mirar and displace local Ice Hunter tribes.

–105 DR Year of the Bloody Goad
An Illuskan tribe known as the Rus arrives in eastern Faerűn by means of a malfunctioning portal that deposited them on the eastern shore of Lake Ashane. Although quickly integrated into the native Rashemi population, the Rus were powerful berserkers who sparked an insurrection among the native Rashemi against the court of Eltab [–148, –75]. The arrival of the Rus coincided with the emergence of the Witches of Rashemen, a secret sisterhood formed in the dying days of Raumathar to preserve that empire’s magical lore.


Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore

United Kingdom
1150 Posts

Posted - 11 Jan 2014 :  18:31:40  Show Profile  Visit hashimashadoo's Homepage Send hashimashadoo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As I understand it, the northman colonizations came in waves. The only thing that we know for sure connected them were the dragonships that they took across the Trackless Sea. The wave that resulted in the Rus was one of the earlier waves of immigrants while modern nothmen came something along the lines of (educated guesswork here) a century later.

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 11 Jan 2014 :  18:34:57  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
'Illuskan' is also a misnomer, but its kinda the best we have for this. However, that really only applies to the people of Illusk (Luskan), and their descendents, which is major branch of the original group, but still just one branch. 'Northmen' is really the best, because it is the most generic. Once those originals settled on the islands and along the coast of the North, they went by different names. Another major, nearly 'pure' branch of the originals are the Reghedmen, that live above the Spine of the World.

When the Northmen (Illuskan) moved west and interbred with the darker barbarians they found there (who I think are a part of the ancient Gur - a group that migrated from the east across the northern part of the continent, and of whom the original Netherese would have been part), they became Uthgardt - a mix of the towering Northmen, and the darker, stockier mainland barbarians (this is actually very similar to how the German peoples were created). At a later time, the Rethgardt were created, which was composed of the Uthgardt that interbred with surviving Netherese (I'd have to fact-check this last part with GK - he's the expert on that).

The Rus were created by the same ancient portal network that created the Arkauins in the southlands (who are a mix of Rus and Shaaran bloods). A group of Northmen accidentally went through a portal and wound-up in Rashemi, interbred with the local barabarians, and became the Rus (who just so happen to be extremely similar to our RW Rus). Now, if the Gur were the same proto-group that became the Raumvari, who became the Raumathari, and later the Nar and Rashemi groups (amongst MANY others), then that means most of the barbarians in the setting are some mixture of the same two original barbarian groups, one from the north-east, the other from the north-west, who continually collided as they both migrated all around the place (Once again, VERY similar to our own RW European history).

Since I think the Gur were like our RW Arians, who were an Asiatic caucasian people, then once again, Torillian history mirrors our own. In that scenario, Brightsar Lake (Gbor Nor) becomes our Black Sea. The primitive peoples were driven out and west, and merged to various degrees with the people of the north and west (the Tethyrian/Chondathan proto-group as well).

The only (human) group that was actually aboriginal to Faerűn would have been that last group - the proto-Chondathans, who were probably the Talfir, although they would have gone by a different name at that time. I have other theories, however, and I don't want to get into those (that the Talfir group was created from the darker-skinned Sharran group intermixing with an early Imaskari interloper group called 'the Dathites' - who would have come from our own early Mediterranean region. Thus, 'Dathites' are an olive-skinned people, who mixed in various degrees with all the others, until we have our current modern mix of racial/regional groups.)

Its really hard to isolate a single group as we go further back, because they are all interconnected somehow, but thats precisely how it should be, because thats how it worked RW. Things do not 'happen in a vacuum'; everything is connected to everything else, and FR is the one setting that does that better then all the rest.

One of these days I should really do that 'ancient migrations' map I've always dreamed about. I'd do it now... but thats just my ADD talking. Must... resist...

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 11 Jan 2014 18:41:16
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore

1842 Posts

Posted - 11 Jan 2014 :  22:40:49  Show Profile Send The Arcanamach a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
One of these days I should really do that 'ancient migrations' map I've always dreamed about. I'd do it now... but thats just my ADD talking. Must... resist...


Ye gods, please finish your Misbegotten Realms fist!

I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one.
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7966 Posts

Posted - 13 Jan 2014 :  22:58:08  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The North boxset does confuse things a little, Markus.

There‘s Northmen and the other Northmen of the Moonshaes and (later) also Angardt and Uthgart barbarian sorts. And (I think) unidentified populations of humans who already lived there long, long before even ancient Netheril was founded.

[/Ayrik]
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
955 Posts

Posted - 01 May 2014 :  12:48:28  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think your right Ayrik, the Netheril boxed set mentions the Rengarth and Angardt tribes living in territories of Netheril, being associated with the low Netherese group, but actually have a very Norse/Germanic feel to them. Not to mention, there are a lot of Germanic sounding names associated with them, like the lake Macht. Maybe the Netherese were partially descended from these 'northmen', and partially some arriving group, like maybe the Gur, or even Imaskari?

[EDIT]
Great ideas with the proto-Chondathans being Talfir, a lot of Chondathian descended nation like Dalelands and Cormyr have strong Celtic elements, despite the Chondathans/jhaamdathian being said to be based on Romans and Italians, so tying Talfiri with them could solve this dissonance. The Greyhawk(Oerik?)/Anchorome idea is also very interesting, and wouldn’t you mind if I used it myself in my campaign?

Edited by - Baltas on 01 May 2014 14:07:33
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 01 May 2014 :  13:59:09  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well having read the Netheril boxed set thoroughly i have a few ideas on the humans of Netheril.

I suspect we have several human migrations into the Netherese Basin before the founding of Netheril.

How else do you explain the widely differing cultures and societies and different stock of peoples.

So first is the founding of Thaeravel in the far south west of the basin. These people seem to have been the first human nation of Netheril and the Netheril boxed set speaks of people living in the area already when they arrived that were not the rengarth barbarians.

Given the proximity to the Western Heartlands i propose that these people are of Talfir origin.

Next we have the barbarians, initially the Rengarth and then the Angardt. Both the same people, both of stockier build than the Netherese. The Rengarth initially roamed the entire Netherese basin and then split so the rengarth had the north and the angardt had the south.
This nomadic behaviour gives a clue to their origin and their use of ancestral spirits also gives something away.

Finally the Gur people are believed to be descended from Low Netherese stock which would include at least a 50% barbarian heritage. Gurs are thought to be of Rashemi origin which is an indication of where the barbarian peoples came from and so the Rengarth people must have had dark hair and the stocky build points to an actual Raumviran ancestry which were stockier than the Nar and they mingled to make the Rashemi.

The Netherese are also described as having dark raven coloured hair and they had to have migrated into the region because they were concentrated only on the seven villages at first and speak of humans already being in the area when they arrive.

So for population migrations into the area i propose Talfiric people arrive first. They are generally peaceful and could have arrived at any point in history (they are mentioned by elves during the crown wars and are probably the original human inhabitants of Faerun).

Then around -5,000 DR there are a series of migrations from the Endless Wastes into the Rashemen region. These migrations displace tribes of Raumviran and Taan stock (Markustay came up with the Taan/Gur peoples idea) who move across the Unapproachable east and because the land is so cold the Inner Sea and Moonsea would be partially frozen during the winter months allowing them easy access to Netheril through The Ride.



There is of course the possibility that the Rengarth people come from the north as there were nomadic fisher people in the north that were later displaced to the icewind dale region i think. I went with tribes from the unapproachable east however given the rashemi origin in the Gur people

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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
955 Posts

Posted - 01 May 2014 :  14:23:05  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Very good observations dazzlerdal, but maybe the Rengarth people were already a mix of Raumviran and Northmen blood. Not to mention, the Rengarth name is somewhat similar to Reghed, who are the people of current Ice Wind Dale. The Uthrgar, Uthgardt names are similar to the Angardt, Rengarth names(aside from the fact Uthgar is a distorted version of Uther). The Northmen dislike of magic is also suspiciously similar to the Rengarth people fear of arcane arts.

Edited by - Baltas on 01 May 2014 14:24:29
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 01 May 2014 :  14:40:50  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Northmen arrived far too late in Faerun's history to be the Rengarth. The Northmen arrive -3100 DR and the Netherese are already well established in Netheril by then and first encounter the Rengarth c-3650.

The Uthgar are actually partly of Netherese stock so the migration goes the other way round in that the Rengarth people moved into the North (and the Western Heartlands) after the fall of Netheril.

The Netheril Basin is actually quite isolated from a geographic point of view (especially back then when the glaciers covered entry from the north east and forests covered all the western and eastern entires). So migrating into the area is quite difficult.
Thats why i think the Talfir were there originally as they could have arrived way back in the history of Toril when it was a bit warmer and remain isolated for millenia.
The name of The Ride gives us a clue that some kind of migration may have taken place through that area and there are hints that the entire Moonsea has frozen over in the past so it is possible for a migratory route through that path.

Its just a question of looking at the racial characteristics of the people. Northmen are fair haired and skinned, whereas the Raumvirans and Taan peoples are dark haired and skinned.

We dont know what the Talfir people look like, but the only known population of them left is the Gur (and some Tethyrian) and they are all dark haired and tanned skin and since they also comprise significant Netherese origin (although its not specific as to whether this is low or high, probably both) it doesnt take much of a jump to imagine the Rengarth and Netherese people being from a similar region.

Earth has a history of waves of migration from the same area over many years. Look at the vandals, goths, visigoths and other tribes that migrated through roman territory during the fall. All similar tribes from a similar area but they came one after the other. So an upset in the endless wastes forces the people there to move who displace other people in the land they move into, and so these people move on ultimately ending up in the Netheril Basin.

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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
955 Posts

Posted - 01 May 2014 :  15:37:05  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah I know about the fact the Netherese are actually mixed up with Northmen after their empires fall. It's just that the German sounding names on Netherese territories(Meiter River, Macht Lake, Dienere River, Fria River, which seems even be named after a form of the name Freya or Frigga), are very strange to me. So I thought that maybe there was a much earlier, undocumented migration of Northmen there(or rather a few), on foot through the glacier, from Anchorome or Aurune. Still, this just a small headcanon of mine, rather than anything else.

Edited by - Baltas on 01 May 2014 15:41:12
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 01 May 2014 :  15:47:21  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Best thing to do would be to rename them to something you think is more in line with what a Netherese name sounds like.

The names of people and places in the Netheril boxed set was not particularly inspired but everything else wasnt too bad once you dig deep enough (ignoring the massive date errors and inconsistencies that is).


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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
955 Posts

Posted - 01 May 2014 :  16:12:09  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I guess your right, but the Rengarth, and Angardt barbarians do remind of early Germanic or Proto-Germanic tribes. And their names also give of a Norse/German vibe(Uthgardt barbarians and Uthgar are ultimately named after Uthgatdheim from Norse mythology, and it seems Angardt are named to be similar to Uthgardt). Then again, as you said it may be just some inconsiderate naming and world building.
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6638 Posts

Posted - 01 May 2014 :  16:58:59  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You guys want to read the first couple of pages of FR5 The Savage Frontier to see how the original rise of humans in the North occurred. Canon has deviated somewhat from what is in there, but the main points are that originally North as we know it was dominated by the humans known as the Ice Hunters. The people of Netheril appear to have "always been there" but then finally unified together and swiftly grew in power thanks to the Art, and the Northmen were actually from the South.

As to that last point, given what we knew of the racial types present in the lands south of the Delimbiyr, it was difficult to reconcile a "tall, fair-haired warlike race" coming from Calimshan. My original North timeline had the -3000 DR Northmen come to the lands of the North in -200 DR and establishing settlements up the Sword Coast heading northward (i.e. that's why they were known as the "Northmen" and could be considered to "come from the south") around -150 DR. I originally considered that they came from the present-day Moonshae Isles. That take had to be changed to account for the write-up of the Illuskans in 'Races of Faerun'. I'm pretty sure that Eric did that write-up and I'm pretty sure that I decided that the Northmen came from the "unknown lands to the west" when I was doing my North Timelines over a decade ago and he weave fit into the write-up or he came up with it and I weaved it into my timeline. Memories are fuzzy after all that time. If I had my time over, I may have gone a different direction in that regard. Similarly, if I could change some of my Illusk stuff to account for the anomalous reference to the Hosstower in the 'Lords of Darkness' accessory, I would do that too. Of course, hindsight is a wonderful thing. After all, how was I to know that Salvatore would want to play with Gauntlgrym in his fiction and then choose to ignore my North Timeline references in doing so so many years later!

On that point, if I could "do it over", I would have had the Hosstower originally start as an arakhor (see Eric's Mintiper's Chapbook series) installed by Illefarn binding the primordial Maegera which had crawled out of Mount Hotenow. The original human settlement of Illusk would have been Ice Hunter humans who venerated the arakhor as a god, Jeriah Chronos took an interest in the place because of Maegera and was looking to control the arakhor and the primordial when the orcs came and blitzed the place. The arrival of the next lot Netherese after Karsus' Folly would have been prompted by Melathlar coming across a lore trove of Jeriah and finding out about Maegera. They would have travelled to Illusk to seek to control the arakhor and Maegera as a weapon against the phaerimm leading to the arakhor becoming petrified (i.e. becoming a stone tree) and Maegera being let loose until the elves of Iliyanbruen brought it under control again at the site of present-day Gauntlgrym. The destruction wreaked by Maegera through the Neverwinter woodlands would have been the cause of the enmity between Illusk and the elves of Ilianbruyen, leading to the war between them. Meanwhile, the dwarves of Delzoun would have come across Maegera and somehow convinced the elves to bind it to serve its current purpose - as an aside, this is the biggest weakness in Salvatore's plot thread on this. Just why would the elves of Iliyanbruen have assisted Netherese humans and/or the dwarves of Delzoun to bind Maegera in Gauntlgrym? Then again, his books don't acknowledge the earliest sources FR1 and FR5 that always stated that Gauntulgrym was a city built by the dwarves of Delzoun for humans. Ed has graciously stated that there was always a Gauntlgrym for dwarves and Gauntulgrym for humans, but he is renowned as being a generous sort ...

Anyway, I've digressed and wasted much of your time. The nature of the Netherese people and the "original" racial stock of the humans who lived in what we now call the Heartlands and Anauroch is a vexed one. I think that the Talfir are probably the answer, but there is so much empty space on this topic that it would take a huge amount of filling in to tie in all the disparate history, recognise what and who was there before, and give a clear, coherent rundown of human existence in that region between the Time of Dragons and the fall of Netheril. Anyone feeling masochistic?

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
955 Posts

Posted - 01 May 2014 :  18:18:37  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thank you for your answer Mr. Krashos! It is interesting to hear that Northmen were originally supposed to come from South, makes me wonder if they weren't supposed to related to the old Tethen peoples somehow. It seems that Northmen history is bit a mess now, and I wonder if Mr. slade and Mr. Butler didn't want to suggest their own take on them and Netherese in Netheril: Empire of Magic. The Germanic sounding names in Netherese territories, can be also attributed to fact, I think, that maybe there is a large Low Netheril substrate in the current Northmen language, which partially gave it's current Norse/Germanic-esque character.
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 01 May 2014 :  20:24:26  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well I'm always feeling a bit masochistic but for me it is actually fun to do the really horrid investigation work.

I have just reread the Savage Frontier and I think my initial theory that the Nether people (that is those from the seven villages) are immigrants into the Netheril Basin still stands.

The savage frontier book states the following

quote:
In the far west, men also dwelled #151;wise, clever primitives called the Ice Hunters. They lived their simple lives on the Sword Coast since time beyond reckoning, countless generations before Netheril#146;s first founders set foot on the Narrow Sea#146;s western shore. Yet this peaceful folk fell prey to another invasion. From the south came crude long ships to disgorge a tall, fair-haired, warlike race which displaced the IceHunters from their ancestral lands.


quote:
Most Uthgardt show the strong Netherese bloodlines in their dark hair and fair skin,


quote:
This ancient people lived here long before other humans. They tend to be short, dark haired, broad-faced, with light-brown skin. They were the original primitives dwelling on the shores of the Trackless Sea.


So it looks like the Ice Hunters were isolated on the Sword Coast, which makes sense since they were fisher men.


The Netheril book has a number of quotes that are important

quote:
Spiel touted itself as a center of learning for the enclaves, specializing in folklore (from the Angardt and Rengarth barbarian tribes, as well as older cultures discovered in the south)


quote:
The Apothecs were derived from Netherese stock and didn’t want their culture ruled by magic, choosing instead to rely on natural
medicinal concoctions derived from plants, herbs, and other organic sources.


quote:
This valley was surrounded on its northern and southern borders by high cliffs. The first humans of Tori1 lived here, thinking its cliffs would afford some protection from the elements and the wildlife in the area. The ruins of this cave-dwelling civilization could still be seen during the time of Netheril


Then its on to races of Faerun

quote:
Illuskans are tall, fair-skinned folk with eyes of blue or steely gray. Those who dwell among the islands of the Trackless Sea and in Icewind Dale are largely fair-haired, with blond hair predominating over red and light brown. Those who dwell on the mainland south of the Spine of the World are more prone to raven-black hair, an indication of significant Netherese heritage.


quote:
Tethyrians are of medium build and height, although taller and broader in build than most Calishites. Their skin tends to have a dusky hue, although on average they are increasingly fairer in complexion the farther north one travels along the Sword Coast, reflecting a decreasing fraction of Calishite heritage and an increasing fraction of Illuskan and Low Netherese ancestry. Tethyrian hair and eye color varies widely, with brown hair and blue eyes being most common.


quote:
Four small groups of pureblooded Netherese are believed to
survive in the present day. The Marsh Drovers of the Farsea
Marshes are thought to be descendants of Anauria who were
never absorbed by the Chondathan inhabitants of Cormyr. The
Tunlar barbarians of the Plains of Tun are believed to be descendants
of the Rengarth barbarians (cousins of the Low
Netherese) of southern Netheril. The nomadic barbarians of the
Ride north of the Moonsea are believed to be descendants of the
Angardt barbarians of northern Netheril (also cousins of the
Low Netherese).


quote:
The Gurs, also known as “Selűne’s Children” or “the people of
the highway,” are the nomads of the Western Heartlands. Most
Gurs are members of extended family groups that travel
together from settlement to settlement in motley caravans selling
cheap cast-offs and working odd jobs. Others have settled in
the poorest quarters of cities such as Baldur’s Gate, Elturel, and
Irieabor, where they struggle to survive in the face of ancient
prejudices. Among those few scholars who have studied their culture,
the Gurs are thought to be primarily of Rashemi descent.
Although they have certainly intermingled with members of
other ethnic groups, they strongly resemble the natives of
Rashemen. As fragments of lore dating back to the erection of
the Standing Stone refer to the nomadic Gurs, it is thought that
they fled their ancient homeland during or immediately after
the cataclysmic battle between Raumathar and Narfell.


quote:
Elven writings dating back to the Crown Wars mention a darkhaired, fair-skinned human tribe in the heart of the great forest of Shantel Othreier. The Talfir were the original human inhabitants
of the Chionthar river valley in the Western Heartlands.
Speakers of Talfiric, a long-lost human tongue based on the Draconic
alphabet, the Talfir gradually disappeared over a thousand years ago, their culture overwhelmed by refugees from Low Netheril, Calishite settlers from the south, and Chondathan settlers from the Dragon Coast.


Now when you put all these things together and mix it with the geography it seems to me that there are many different cultures in Netheril.

So first lets start with the ancient peoples that lived in caves. They obviously predate Netheril, since it is stated as such. They are distinct culturally from the Rengarth. They also cannot be the Ice Hunters (since they were on the Sword Coast and it is a long way to walk to Netheril which was cut off by mountains and forests filled with monsters.
I place these as Talfirs since they are predominant in the south of Netheril which has the easiest access point to the Western Heartlands which according to RoF had Talfiric tribes of humans since the crown wars as noted by the elves. Interestingly enough Talfirs are one of the few human cultures using the draconic alphabet (along with the Netherese) but they are probably not the same culture as the Netherese as they had differing war gods (on of whom vanquished the other).
So Thaeravel was in the south west near Holloway which is close to the gateway to the western heartlands in the Netheril basin and so likely that brief civilisation was of Talfiric stock.

Then we have the barbarians peoples. All racial indicators of low netherese (and incidentally high netherese) stock places them with dark hair and fair skin (this is from their ancestors in Tethyr, Chondath, and the Gurs). So they are similar to the Ice Hunters in hue but are separated by geography (although that is not insurmountable). Their culture is anti magic and strongly spirit based with highly superstitious natures.

They seemed to have roamed the north primarily (even though they did have the south lands before the schism it looks like they never went past the flats because it was very mountainous and full of fell ruins (which if you are superstitious you would want to avoid). So the Netherese and Rengarth didn't meet until way after the founding of Netheril.
It isn't impossible that the Netherese were formed from an off-shoot of the Rengarth but the cultures are completely alien. The Rengarth are stockier and they are separated by geography.

Then onto the Netherese. A group of seven villages in very close proximity on the shore of a great sea with different culture to every other race around them. The races suddenly unite around -3869 for defence.
Its not like the nature of the region hadn't changed suddenly in -3869 DR so their unification must have been shortly after the creation of the villages (probably shortly after an orc attack).
So my suggestion is that they arrived in the area not long before the founding of Netheril.

Where they actually came from is pure speculation but the clues do point to them being newly arrived in the area.

Its unlikely that the Netherese suddenly arose from either of the people already in the Netheril Basin learned the draconic alphabet, got over their mistrust of magic (or crawled out of the caves) and settled 7 villages all in one go.

I just chose the Unapproachable East ancestry because of their dark hair and that I don't think the Netherese or Rengarth are Talfir. And portals are a bit over used for people migration so I went for the actual migration excuse in that the Rashemi began around -5000 DR so that may have triggered a migration movement that a thousand years later ended in the Rengarth and Netherese arriving in the basin (and Markustay mentioned something about a Gur name in the Taangan tribes).

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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7966 Posts

Posted - 01 May 2014 :  22:33:07  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Anthropology and human genome projects which attempt to track the migrations, hybridizing and differentiation of human populations has produced a lot of interesting results. Admittedly, the genetic tools have wide error margins and are only valid for samples who have bred true within their respective regions for many generations - but even qualitative results are informative.

Apparently fair skin, blond or red hair, and blue or grey eyes are relatively recent expressions. That is, some 6-10 millennia back, basically circa Bronze Age early African and Asian civilizations, every human everywhere had dark complexions, dark hair and eyes.

Human skin/hair/eye colours (in native populations) tend to remain uniformly dark in equatorial and tropical regions, becoming lighter and lighter as one progresses Northwards beyond temperate regions. A statistical generality, yet one with a pronounced statistical trend.

I would think fabled Seventon of proto-Netheril was located somewhere equivalent to, say, Sweden or Norway. While the Moonshaes are clearly modelled after the British Isles. The native people of these areas, on our world, are almost uniformly pale, blond, and blue-eyed. Unless they have the red hair of some Germanic/Norse ancestry, or the swarthier, stockier (and I daresay, hirsute) characteristics of their Baltic or Roman ancestors. Or indeed, of ancestors who may have invaded from pretty much anywhere in the world.

Just saying that modern Realms ethnicities need not much resemble ancient Netherese, nor any peoples who came before. And those who continue to live in the North are likely pale blond types.

[/Ayrik]
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
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Posted - 02 May 2014 :  00:38:54  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Maybe Hasbro should do what Disney did, and just consider all non-game related material 'expanded universe' (Now 'Legends'). Novels should just be 'hearsay'.

It would solve a lot of continuity problems.

We even got back Chewbacca.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 02 May 2014 :  02:04:19  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Maybe Hasbro should do what Disney did, and just consider all non-game related material 'expanded universe' (Now 'Legends'). Novels should just be 'hearsay'.

It would solve a lot of continuity problems.

We even got back Chewbacca.



We lost him?

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 02 May 2014 :  02:33:15  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Maybe Hasbro should do what Disney did, and just consider all non-game related material 'expanded universe' (Now 'Legends'). Novels should just be 'hearsay'.

It would solve a lot of continuity problems.

We even got back Chewbacca.



We lost him?

Yup.

He was killed by Darth Drizzt

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 02 May 2014 :  02:40:31  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Maybe Hasbro should do what Disney did, and just consider all non-game related material 'expanded universe' (Now 'Legends'). Novels should just be 'hearsay'.

It would solve a lot of continuity problems.

We even got back Chewbacca.



We lost him?

Yup.

He was killed by Darth Drizzt



Is that the Darth who is all emo and wields two lightscimitars

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7966 Posts

Posted - 02 May 2014 :  03:05:48  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
How do you lose a wookie? Is that possible?

[/Ayrik]
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 02 May 2014 :  09:54:10  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You smack him with a planetoid and he dies.

Of course how they brought him back i have no idea. Not that i ever read any of the star wars novels.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 02 May 2014 :  11:49:04  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

You smack him with a planetoid and he dies.

Of course how they brought him back i have no idea. Not that i ever read any of the star wars novels.



Easy -- the existing books are no longer canon. So, officially, nothing has happened in the Star Wars universe since the end of Return of the Jedi.

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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 02 May 2014 :  11:59:13  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Really, when did that happen. They have been writing those books for 20+ years and they just wipe them all away with a wave of the hand and a "Novels, there are no novels!" statement.

If such a thing can happen then that gives me renewed hope for FR.

I just tried it a few times now but it hasnt worked yet. Maybe i need to boost my medi-chlorian count

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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31701 Posts

Posted - 02 May 2014 :  15:48:11  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Really, when did that happen. They have been writing those books for 20+ years and they just wipe them all away with a wave of the hand and a "Novels, there are no novels!" statement.
It happened just recently, after Disney announced new novels will be published under their aegis for the STAR WARS universe before the release of EPISODE VII.

Basically, Disney now have the authority to pick and choose what they want from the existing EU material, and give it credence [or not] in their future source material for the new line of novels they're publishing.

So while some existing EU events/characters may remain, I suspect they'll be reworked/tweaked slightly to fit in with whatever plans Disney have for making up their own unique STAR WARS EU material.

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Mapolq
Senior Scribe

Brazil
466 Posts

Posted - 02 May 2014 :  17:10:00  Show Profile Send Mapolq a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, that's a non-statement statement, from my point of view. Every company that owns an IP has the authority and can usually be considered to be willing to alter continuity under certain circumstances (believing otherwise is a delusion). It remains to be seen whether they'll throw the baby away with the bathwater, or at least try to fit in the nice stuff we got in the pre-Disney EU.

Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.

Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955

My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447

Edited by - Mapolq on 02 May 2014 17:10:13
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 03 May 2014 :  17:29:46  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

I just tried it a few times now but it hasn't worked yet. Maybe I need to boost my medi-chlorian count
I never medi-chlorian I didn't like.

badom-PAH! {we NEEED a rimshot smiley!}

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 03 May 2014 17:30:16
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
2065 Posts

Posted - 25 Aug 2014 :  20:55:17  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Lots of cool ideas here George. I do remember having the idea that the arakhor could be the origin of the HostTower, in some fashion. I also remember thinking (at least at one point) that the "Northmen" came to the Sword Coast from another world (Earth?) through portals in the Trackless Sea. This would be consistent with Ed's original "Gates" article way back in the early days of Dragon. But, it could be that we started leaning the other way (Northmen came from elsewhere in the Realms) in later Realmslore and I'm not remembering it quite right.

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

You guys want to read the first couple of pages of FR5 The Savage Frontier to see how the original rise of humans in the North occurred. Canon has deviated somewhat from what is in there, but the main points are that originally North as we know it was dominated by the humans known as the Ice Hunters. The people of Netheril appear to have "always been there" but then finally unified together and swiftly grew in power thanks to the Art, and the Northmen were actually from the South.

As to that last point, given what we knew of the racial types present in the lands south of the Delimbiyr, it was difficult to reconcile a "tall, fair-haired warlike race" coming from Calimshan. My original North timeline had the -3000 DR Northmen come to the lands of the North in -200 DR and establishing settlements up the Sword Coast heading northward (i.e. that's why they were known as the "Northmen" and could be considered to "come from the south") around -150 DR. I originally considered that they came from the present-day Moonshae Isles. That take had to be changed to account for the write-up of the Illuskans in 'Races of Faerun'. I'm pretty sure that Eric did that write-up and I'm pretty sure that I decided that the Northmen came from the "unknown lands to the west" when I was doing my North Timelines over a decade ago and he weave fit into the write-up or he came up with it and I weaved it into my timeline. Memories are fuzzy after all that time. If I had my time over, I may have gone a different direction in that regard. Similarly, if I could change some of my Illusk stuff to account for the anomalous reference to the Hosstower in the 'Lords of Darkness' accessory, I would do that too. Of course, hindsight is a wonderful thing. After all, how was I to know that Salvatore would want to play with Gauntlgrym in his fiction and then choose to ignore my North Timeline references in doing so so many years later!

On that point, if I could "do it over", I would have had the Hosstower originally start as an arakhor (see Eric's Mintiper's Chapbook series) installed by Illefarn binding the primordial Maegera which had crawled out of Mount Hotenow. The original human settlement of Illusk would have been Ice Hunter humans who venerated the arakhor as a god, Jeriah Chronos took an interest in the place because of Maegera and was looking to control the arakhor and the primordial when the orcs came and blitzed the place. The arrival of the next lot Netherese after Karsus' Folly would have been prompted by Melathlar coming across a lore trove of Jeriah and finding out about Maegera. They would have travelled to Illusk to seek to control the arakhor and Maegera as a weapon against the phaerimm leading to the arakhor becoming petrified (i.e. becoming a stone tree) and Maegera being let loose until the elves of Iliyanbruen brought it under control again at the site of present-day Gauntlgrym. The destruction wreaked by Maegera through the Neverwinter woodlands would have been the cause of the enmity between Illusk and the elves of Ilianbruyen, leading to the war between them. Meanwhile, the dwarves of Delzoun would have come across Maegera and somehow convinced the elves to bind it to serve its current purpose - as an aside, this is the biggest weakness in Salvatore's plot thread on this. Just why would the elves of Iliyanbruen have assisted Netherese humans and/or the dwarves of Delzoun to bind Maegera in Gauntlgrym? Then again, his books don't acknowledge the earliest sources FR1 and FR5 that always stated that Gauntulgrym was a city built by the dwarves of Delzoun for humans. Ed has graciously stated that there was always a Gauntlgrym for dwarves and Gauntulgrym for humans, but he is renowned as being a generous sort ...

Anyway, I've digressed and wasted much of your time. The nature of the Netherese people and the "original" racial stock of the humans who lived in what we now call the Heartlands and Anauroch is a vexed one. I think that the Talfir are probably the answer, but there is so much empty space on this topic that it would take a huge amount of filling in to tie in all the disparate history, recognise what and who was there before, and give a clear, coherent rundown of human existence in that region between the Time of Dragons and the fall of Netheril. Anyone feeling masochistic?

-- George Krashos


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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 25 Aug 2014 :  21:08:05  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote

quote:
I also remember thinking (at least at one point) that the "Northmen" came to the Sword Coast from another world (Earth?) through portals in the Trackless Sea.



Well I must have telepathically stolen that idea for my alternate dimensions fan mag as I have Northmen coming from Abeir.

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