| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 25 Sep 2013 : 14:33:33
Just wondering, Dungeon #178 finally reveals something akin to a believable story for Entropy. It states that he's a primordial, and that Ao had imprisoned him as a warning to the gods in the form of the sphere of annihilation. However, we don't know why he was given the nickname "god-swallower". I'd always imagined it had something to do with the Orcgate Wars and the gods that were killed by the orcs given the proximity, but now I wonder if there was another explanation. Mind you, I still favor the Orcgate Wars and possibly a mortal managing to use the sphere to eliminate one of the old Untheric gods (picturing not so much as them controlling the sphere as somehow transporting the god to the sphere with maybe a portal.... after all Imaskari were good with portals, and I suspect the Theurgist Adepts may have been helping the Orcs a little bit). Anyway, just wondering if there's any other canon information. I know there was something linking Tiamat utilizing Entropy as a conduit of sorts for a bit prior to the spellplague. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Markustay |
Posted - 29 Sep 2013 : 18:46:18
An avatar of Entropy would be... NOTHING. 
There should be a connection between Shar and Entropy... perhaps it is her 'father'. Then again, I always pegged Erebus as her father. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 29 Sep 2013 : 18:33:18
Okay, scrap that, I'd only been skimming everything...
Entropy was the sphere of annihilation created and imprisoned by Ao. Talos, having heard about this, makes his own, Entropy Jr, out of the blackball. Entropy Jr at some point merges with the original Entropy. Now both origins are correct.
In 1346, Entropy manages to spawn a free avatar, and the Karanoks find the avatar and begin worshipping it. Then, in 1370, seeing a way to get more power and chaos out of the deal (and maybe keep Shar from getting involved), Tiamat gives Entropy another boost, with the spells and lesser versions.
Then comes the Spellplague, and the bonds imprisoning the main part of Entropy are weakened. Using its new power and semi-divine status, it breaks free.
Hopefully that reconciles everything... |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 29 Sep 2013 : 17:25:49
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
How about Entropy had managed to spawn an avatar, and it was the avatar that appeared first? Then Entropy was freed when Ao cast down all the gods in the ToT...
Need more clarity around what you're talking about here?
In essence, the canon lore we have so far is that Entropy appeared in 1346 DR to the Karanoks (per Lords of Darkness pg 136). Also in 1346 DR Tiamat returns to the realms (GHotR). Tiamat however does not begin working through Entropy until 1370, at which time she somehow spins off 5 "portions" of Entropy (which become known as Entropy's daughters) (per LoD again). Its this spinning off of 5 new entities that I find most of interest, as I wonder if Tiamat found some way to separate out the absorbed deific energy of gods who were destroyed by Entropy since it was frozen, and this enabled her to somehow "tap" into the worship of the Karanoks. This may have unintentionally weakened that which held Entropy in place.
We also have that Entropy is a primordial frozen in the form of a giant sphere of annihilation by Ao, and that it is freed during the spellplague (Dungeon #178). We also have some people wanting to link it to Shar and Talos (both of which make sense.. more Talos in my head since he's a god of destruction.. but we also have the lore that Talos came about as a result of Shar and Selune fighting (source faiths & Pantheons)). I personally wouldn't consider the info presented in Realms-L as canon before published material, especially since Scott Bennie is the original old empires author and not Tom Costa. I'll take the Brian R. James variation as canon first (its newer, its published, and personally I like it more), and then try to work in any previous lore to make things still "work".
BTW, one thing that occurs to me is that "Entropy" is a name that the Karanoks gave to the being. The "Godswallower" is also a name given by other beings. If Talos was some kind of 'deific offshoot' created by absorbing deities, it very well may be that "Entropy"'s given name is actually Talos... and when humans began worshipping it in the name of Entropy, Talos was simply fulfilling the order. Then Tiamat comes along and tries some kind of trick to use the same alias. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 29 Sep 2013 : 16:38:49
quote:
Originally posted by ksu_bond
The connection to Talos isn't really a problem and is easy to arrange...
Tiamat's involvement is a bit more interesting given the information in Dungeon 178. It is possible that there was a weakness that Tiamat found in Ao's prison for Entropy and exploited it, but I dislike having yet another example of Supreme Power be incompetent and thus out-smarted by their inferiors...so another option would be the 5 "daughters" are augmented sphere's created by Tiamat who used illusion to make it appear as though they split from Entropy...
Actually, I don't have a problem with that. Ao told the gods "follow my orders or this thing gets unleashed". He put a "lock" on Entropy. Tiamat goes and f's with the lock... a few years later Entropy is unleashed. Ao goes "dumbass, I told you to leave it alone". He's not outsmarted by inferiors. He left out a baited trap with a big sign saying "don't touch this unless you want your hands slapped". |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 29 Sep 2013 : 14:32:34
How about Entropy had managed to spawn an avatar, and it was the avatar that appeared first? Then Entropy was freed when Ao cast down all the gods in the ToT... |
| ksu_bond |
Posted - 29 Sep 2013 : 11:47:42
The connection to Talos isn't really a problem and is easy to arrange...
Tiamat's involvement is a bit more interesting given the information in Dungeon 178. It is possible that there was a weakness that Tiamat found in Ao's prison for Entropy and exploited it, but I dislike having yet another example of Supreme Power be incompetent and thus out-smarted by their inferiors...so another option would be the 5 "daughters" are augmented sphere's created by Tiamat who used illusion to make it appear as though they split from Entropy... |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 29 Sep 2013 : 10:32:10
quote:
Originally posted by ksu_bond
I believe that Nanna-Sin is what connects Entropy to the Karanok's...
As to being involved in the deaths of Marduk/Bahamut, the aspects of Tiamat & Gruumsh ... it is possible, unfortunately I cannot be much more help than that as this is a period is not one that I've spent much time learning about...
The idea that the imprisoned primordial used the divine energy from the gods it has destroyed to spawn Talos is an interesting one, but if I recall Talos was one of the deities created by the conflict between Shar and Selune...
Interesting Quandary, but still achievable based on the storyline we're supposing (i.e. that Talos & Entropy are somehow tied to being the same being... ). What's been proposed is that Entropy is also fallout from the creation of Mystryl by the blast from Selune on Shar. If that's the case, then the aforementioned statement isn't untrue.
I admit, its a weird storyline and not where I predicted things going when I started this thread, but it does tie everything everyone has proposed together into a nice package. No canon is false except for the history proposed in the realms-L entry, but even it is partially true as it links Entropy and Talos.
Also, one thing that this myth line explains to me is why Entropy hates wizards (although one could also say its because wizards created it in previous versions). If Entropy is the cast off bits from Mystryl's creation, one could say it is the anti-thesis of Mystryl's ability to "create from nothing".
Also, there's the whole 5 "daughters of Entropy" thing where Tiamat caused Entropy to split off lesser pieces of itself. I'm not quite sure what to make of that, but the idea that each one maybe possessed the deific energy of a swallowed god... and perhaps Tiamat actually caused Ao's curse on Entropy to weaken (i.e. not that she overpowered Ao's ability, but rather she mucked with what Ao had told the gods not to muck with because it was fragile) and that's why Entropy allowed Tiamat to use it.
I'm not quite sure what to make of this piece from "Faiths & Pantheons" which details why Talos would disappear from the realms:
If Talos raises the eyepatch, chain lightning roars forth
from the empty socket at targets of his choosing. If he removes his right glove, the hand goes with it, revealing a hollow arm from which cones of cold spray repeatedly (two a round, in addition to any spells Talos may cast). If he removes his left glove, three staves issue forth from the hollowness that is his left arm; he can then wield any one of them in a round with his right hand.
There are persistent rumors that if Talos ever removes his eyepatch and both gloves at once, he will be destroyed. Confirmed reports reveal that if he ever directly tastes damage from one of his staves, from his right arm, or from his eye, Talos vanishes for 4d10 days and does not grant spells to his clergy nor manifest in any way in Faerűn for that time. |
| ksu_bond |
Posted - 28 Sep 2013 : 23:57:59
I believe that Nanna-Sin is what connects Entropy to the Karanok's...
As to being involved in the deaths of Marduk/Bahamut, the aspects of Tiamat & Gruumsh ... it is possible, unfortunately I cannot be much more help than that as this is a period is not one that I've spent much time learning about...
The idea that the imprisoned primordial used the divine energy from the gods it has destroyed to spawn Talos is an interesting one, but if I recall Talos was one of the deities created by the conflict between Shar and Selune... |
| ksu_bond |
Posted - 28 Sep 2013 : 23:12:24
The REALMS-L write-up is great, though the history section differs greatly from canon...but if you combine it wit the lore presented in Dungeon 178, then Talos still created/summoned the umbral blot (blackball) and gave it sentience...probably in jealousy after Mystryl was born...Entropy proved to be too powerful and a great threat so Ao imprisoned the primordial as a sphere of annihilation (in the history I presented on Page 1, I simply switched Entropy's origin to be tied with Shar as that makes more sense to me) ...
With all the canon sources, the REALMS-L included, there is a significant gap between Entropy's birth and the Karanok's...so during this time it is left wide open and can be used in a number of ways...to help provide the back story of "the Swallower of Gods" we were working on it's involvement with the Imaskari and the Orcgate Wars as those are periods when many deities were laid low...being a primordial it may have also been involved in the Dawn Cataclysm as well...
This brings us to the Karanok period, and unfortunately this is where the REALMS-L greatly conflicts with canon...so using Lords of Darkness, Entropy appears in the Karanok Mansion in 1346 DR while burning a wizard and Maelos Karanok is still alive...by contrast, the REALMS-L has Entropy appearing in the Karanok Mansion in 1358 DR killing a number of people including Maelos Karanok
Then in 1370 DR, in the Lords of Darkness, Tiamat begins supplying spells to those who worship Entropy (again for my history I simply switched this to Shar). In contrast, the REALMS-L has Entropy being alive and supplying her faithful with spells directly...
... I would say that you could somehow comprise this, however, this would have to be worked around the Maiden of Pain novel which takes place after the sphere has begun supplying them with powers and Maelos is still alive, though at this point he is only the symbolic figurehead of the family ...
Then during the Spellplague the primordial is released and begins "feeding"... |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 28 Sep 2013 : 17:08:16
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by ksu_bond
To maintain canon, you could still keep the origin story outlined above and just switch the deities involved as appropriate...after doing this exercise I really doubt that the REALMS-L info can be considered canon as it conflicts too much with the other published lore, although I suppose you could have Talos somehow creating Entropy...
Or, in my supposition... the other way around... Entropy creating Talos by absorbing deific energy.
I like the Realms-L write-up, myself, and would start with that as the base point. You can combine the two, though: Talos summoned the blackball, and at some point it merged with the sphere of annihilation Ao had created. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 28 Sep 2013 : 16:32:35
hmmm, this is starting to even bear more fruit with the idea of Entropy spawned Talos by absorbing Tiamat, an avatar of Gruumsh, the manifestation of Marduk, and Nanna-Sin. I just looked up Marduk in the first edition Deities and Demigods... Marduk, god of the city, winds, thunder, storm, and rain and constantly breathing fire.... given Talos as a god of winds, thunder, storms.... might make a good story. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 28 Sep 2013 : 15:49:57
quote:
Originally posted by ksu_bond
To maintain canon, you could still keep the origin story outlined above and just switch the deities involved as appropriate...after doing this exercise I really doubt that the REALMS-L info can be considered canon as it conflicts too much with the other published lore, although I suppose you could have Talos somehow creating Entropy...
Or, in my supposition... the other way around... Entropy creating Talos by absorbing deific energy. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 28 Sep 2013 : 15:48:45
quote:
Originally posted by ksu_bond
For the moment it would appear that the history of Entropy is wide open with only a rough idea of when Entropy was imprisoned, and it's presence in Chessenta since the 1360s.
As far as the connection to Talos, that is only a factor if the REALMS-L content is considered canon...in which case a few more bits of history are filled in...
Although, in my campaign...Entropy will be linked to Shar (not Talos/Tiamat)...looking something like this...in eons past during the War of Light & Dark, Selűne tore the divine essence of magic from her body, flinging it desperately at her dark sister in defense of life in the sphere and nearly killing herself of the spiritual injury it caused her. A just-born being of raw magic tore through Shar, bonding to some of her divine magical energy and ripping it free of her, and reforming behind her as the goddess of magic, known now as Mystra, but then as Mystryl. The impact also resulted in the creation of a sentient umbral blot (blackball) formed from portions of Shar's (instead of Talos) essence that were torn away but not absorbed during the birth of Mystryl (in effect making it a primordial as well). The new primordial, now called Entropy, is the embodiment of her mother’s desire for nothingness and from it’s violent birth at the hands of raw arcane magic seeks to annihilate all those who are tainted by the arcane.
At this point I’ll have to do a bit more research…but the story would progress something like this…
Growing tired of the ever escalating conflict between the Gods and Primordials, Ao banished many of the primordials to Abeir. Ao imprisoned the near mindless Entropy, who was consuming entire planets and a few gods and primordials, in the guise of a sphere of annihilation and discarded the inert primordial on Toril with a warning to the gods: Govern the world wisely or face utter oblivion.
The Imaskari used their magic to dominate others and even reached into other worlds to enslave the people there. Emboldened by their successes, the Imaskari wizards grew so arrogant and audacious that they dared to defy the gods. So when they discovered an imprisoned primordial that was seemingly immune to magic and could annihilate anything it touches, the potential uses and irony did not escape them. – I’m thinking that after much experimentation they finally figured out a way to move it at least somewhat, possibly even a power of one of the Imaskarcana – While effective, it was ultimately difficult to wield as a weapon and had an insatiable thirst for all things arcane, having lost a number of promising wizards and powerful artifacts to its ebony depths. So in the end, they used it as a trap that often involved illusions and magical portals.
After the fall of the Imaskari Empire, Entropy sat forgotten in … until …
–1081 The Mulhorandi wizard Thayd and his coconspirators rebel against the empire and are defeated. Thayd is executed.
–1075 The Orcgate Wars begin in the region that is now Thay. Renegade Mulhorandi wizards employ Imaskari portal magic to open planar gates to an orc world. Mulhorand hires Nar, Raumathari, Rashemi, and Sossrim mercenaries to fight the orc invaders.
–1071 The orc god Gruumsh kills the Mulhorandi deity Ra in the first known deicide. The Untheric gods Inanna, Girru, Ki, Marduk, Nanna-Sin, Nergal, and Utu are also slain by orc deities.
–1069 The Orcgate is destroyed, and the invading orcs are defeated in the Priador.
Was somehow involved in the death of Nanna-Sin during the Orcgate Wars.
Sometime around 1346 DR, a particularly large sphere of annihilation appeared in the largest mansion of House Karanok. The sphere materialized in the middle of a torture chamber and completely consumed the wizard who was being tortured. Seeing this as an omen, the members of the house fell to their knees and worshiped the planar anomaly, which they called Entropy. Remodeling their mansion to make its current location a main temple chamber, the Karanoks blindly worshiped their nondeity in the belief that it would help them meet their goals.
In late 1370 DR, Shar (not Tiamat) used her power to alter the sphere, making it a conduit for her energy. She began granting divine spells to the nobles of House Karanok in the guise of Entropy. She has since caused the sphere to create smaller spheres, which can be controlled by members of the house. The Karanoks worship the daughter spheres, and they have been known to conjure forth scaly reptilian monsters (abishai) to enact the will of the Karanoks and Entropy itself.
So now to fill in a few of the gaps and round off a few of the corners...
Hmmmmm, actually, this works well with what I just posited as well (at least the beginning). Entropy is created as a side effect of Mystryl's creation from Shar. Ao entraps it. Orcgate wars, Nanna-Sin's manifestation and Gruumsh's avatar are absorbed by falling through a portal whose end is moved by Theugist Adepts. This infusion of deific energy is "used" by Entropy to form the divine entity which will become Talos. Talos destroys Bhaelros and Kozah and absorbs their divine power. Talos uses ritual magics of the Imaskari to get other mortals to divinely ascend, then uses them and finally absorbs them (such as Malyk, lord of wild and destructive magic, and his attempt to do so with Velsharoon). Spellplague hits... Talos goes away and Entropy is freed.
Then we have the appearance of Tiamat possibly making the connections to the Karanoks.... how does that fit?
Well, in -1071 DR (yes the same year that we're assuming Nanna-Sin dies to Entropy in the Orcgate Wars), according to Dragons of Faerun pg 8, Tiamat sees an opportunity to take out Gilgeam. Marduk/Bahamut intervenes and the two die in conflict. Could it have been during the same battle? Maybe the same portal trick was used twice by the Theurgist Adepts? Maybe all 4 deities fell through at once? Either way, maybe this created a linkage of Tiamat to the being known as Entropy, such that when she returned something awakened in Entropy? This could explain some imagery of Talos as well (as Bhaelros where he has a chained dragon).
This is really getting interesting now.... any flaws? Any better takes?
|
| sleyvas |
Posted - 28 Sep 2013 : 15:04:38
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
Alright i take the "inert and stationary" back since Entropy appeared in the Karanok mansion around 1346 DR (Lords of Darkness), so at least it could teleport around (or be moved by someone else).
No reaction to the Pandorym hypotesis? Probably because it's unfounded ...
The link with Tiamat (the "Nemesis of the Gods") isn't all that bad for a supposedly god killing weapon (be it of primordial origin even), but Tiamat "noticed" the existence of Entropy and started giving spells through it only in 1370 DR (even splitting it to give the Karanoks portable spheres of annihilation). Another problem this rises is that by 1370 DR Tiamat already killed Gilgeam and Assuran completed her job by killing Ramman so there wasn't any Untheric pantheon left to antagonize or against which unleash a primordial weapon, maybe she wanted to destroy the Mulhorandi and Faerunian pantheon to.
Looking at the GHotR there are a few god-related events in the same years as the more recent Entropy-related happenings:
- 1346 (when Entropy appears in Luthcheq):
1) Bhaal's avatar the Ravager gets banished from the Moonshaes (the year before Kazgaroth tried the take over through the Darkwell);
2) After centuries of silence, an avatar of Tiamat gets summoned in Unther
- 1370 (when Tiamat started granting spells through Entropy):
1) Pandorym partially escapes imprisonment;
2) Velsharoon shifts allegiance from Talos to Mystra/Azuth (maybe exploiting the fact Talos lost a nice chunk of power with Tiamat's take over of Entropy IF Talos freed/was using the sphere first?);
All this means something? Honestly, i don't know, maybe someone else will make the connection.
Concerning "which gods has Entropy swallowed" i think Mr. B. R. James dropped a subtle hint in Dungeon 178 in the People section saying:"House Karanok, it is said, has the divine blood of Nanna-Sin coursing through their veins".
My interpretation: having killed Nanna-Sin during the Orcgate Wars, Entropy retained some link with the deity's blood(line) and in a moment of wakefulness (maybe caused by the apparition of Tiamat's avatar in Unther) teleported to the nearest trace of that same blood(line).
Nice... good interpretation on the Nanna-Sin piece (noting Nanna-Sin is the male Untheric deity of the moon). I'm looking at the GHotR listing and it says "killed by Orc Deities". So, I'm thinking the Theurgist Adepts worked in combo with a summoned orc avatar. Maybe the orc avatar pushed Nanna-Sin through a portal which they had redirected to a portal they had constructed above the dormant Entropy. Maybe the Orc Avatar forced Nanna-Sin to retreat through it. Maybe even the two fell through and Entropy "swallowed both Nanna-Sin's manifestation AND the avatar of the orc deity.
Hmmmmm, I could be reaching here.... but that last sentence.... could the avatar of the orc deity who was swallowed have been Gruumsh's avatar? I mean losing an avatar of himself wouldn't have killed him, and his followers would have just seen him and Nanna-Sin fall through a portal fighting. So, when the spellplague hit... Entropy became free/sentient again and the god Talos disappeared... and we don't necessarily have any record of Talos prior to -1071 DR that I know of.... we do have Kozah and Bhaelros, but they looked different.... could Entropy and Talos BE the same being... and Entropy was simply able to form a "god" by swallowing say Nanna-Sin and maybe Gruumsh's avatar.... then said god went on to slay and absorb Bhaelros and Kozah.... It would kind of fit with Talos having one eye, behind the eyepatch of which is a bunch of stars (moon god and one-eyed Talos). His other powers could have come from absorbing Bhaelros and Kozah..... and then he was known for sponsoring other beings to become gods and then absorbing/swallowing their power.
I don't know if this second part is a good idea yet, but I figured put it out and see where things go. |
| ksu_bond |
Posted - 28 Sep 2013 : 05:01:02
To maintain canon, you could still keep the origin story outlined above and just switch the deities involved as appropriate...after doing this exercise I really doubt that the REALMS-L info can be considered canon as it conflicts too much with the other published lore, although I suppose you could have Talos somehow creating Entropy... |
| The Arcanamach |
Posted - 28 Sep 2013 : 03:33:51
ksu...your rendition of things works much better, IMO, than the official version. It makes far better sense than the Talos/Tiamat connections and makes for a better story too. I will say the official connection between Entropy and Tiamat is logical, given the extended history of both in the region. |
| ksu_bond |
Posted - 27 Sep 2013 : 22:43:07
For the moment it would appear that the history of Entropy is wide open with only a rough idea of when Entropy was imprisoned, and it's presence in Chessenta since the 1360s.
As far as the connection to Talos, that is only a factor if the REALMS-L content is considered canon...in which case a few more bits of history are filled in...
Although, in my campaign...Entropy will be linked to Shar (not Talos/Tiamat)...looking something like this...in eons past during the War of Light & Dark, Selűne tore the divine essence of magic from her body, flinging it desperately at her dark sister in defense of life in the sphere and nearly killing herself of the spiritual injury it caused her. A just-born being of raw magic tore through Shar, bonding to some of her divine magical energy and ripping it free of her, and reforming behind her as the goddess of magic, known now as Mystra, but then as Mystryl. The impact also resulted in the creation of a sentient umbral blot (blackball) formed from portions of Shar's (instead of Talos) essence that were torn away but not absorbed during the birth of Mystryl (in effect making it a primordial as well). The new primordial, now called Entropy, is the embodiment of her mother’s desire for nothingness and from it’s violent birth at the hands of raw arcane magic seeks to annihilate all those who are tainted by the arcane.
At this point I’ll have to do a bit more research…but the story would progress something like this…
Growing tired of the ever escalating conflict between the Gods and Primordials, Ao banished many of the primordials to Abeir. Ao imprisoned the near mindless Entropy, who was consuming entire planets and a few gods and primordials, in the guise of a sphere of annihilation and discarded the inert primordial on Toril with a warning to the gods: Govern the world wisely or face utter oblivion.
The Imaskari used their magic to dominate others and even reached into other worlds to enslave the people there. Emboldened by their successes, the Imaskari wizards grew so arrogant and audacious that they dared to defy the gods. So when they discovered an imprisoned primordial that was seemingly immune to magic and could annihilate anything it touches, the potential uses and irony did not escape them. – I’m thinking that after much experimentation they finally figured out a way to move it at least somewhat, possibly even a power of one of the Imaskarcana – While effective, it was ultimately difficult to wield as a weapon and had an insatiable thirst for all things arcane, having lost a number of promising wizards and powerful artifacts to its ebony depths. So in the end, they used it as a trap that often involved illusions and magical portals.
After the fall of the Imaskari Empire, Entropy sat forgotten in … until …
–1081 The Mulhorandi wizard Thayd and his coconspirators rebel against the empire and are defeated. Thayd is executed.
–1075 The Orcgate Wars begin in the region that is now Thay. Renegade Mulhorandi wizards employ Imaskari portal magic to open planar gates to an orc world. Mulhorand hires Nar, Raumathari, Rashemi, and Sossrim mercenaries to fight the orc invaders.
–1071 The orc god Gruumsh kills the Mulhorandi deity Ra in the first known deicide. The Untheric gods Inanna, Girru, Ki, Marduk, Nanna-Sin, Nergal, and Utu are also slain by orc deities.
–1069 The Orcgate is destroyed, and the invading orcs are defeated in the Priador.
Was somehow involved in the death of Nanna-Sin during the Orcgate Wars.
Sometime around 1346 DR, a particularly large sphere of annihilation appeared in the largest mansion of House Karanok. The sphere materialized in the middle of a torture chamber and completely consumed the wizard who was being tortured. Seeing this as an omen, the members of the house fell to their knees and worshiped the planar anomaly, which they called Entropy. Remodeling their mansion to make its current location a main temple chamber, the Karanoks blindly worshiped their nondeity in the belief that it would help them meet their goals.
In late 1370 DR, Shar (not Tiamat) used her power to alter the sphere, making it a conduit for her energy. She began granting divine spells to the nobles of House Karanok in the guise of Entropy. She has since caused the sphere to create smaller spheres, which can be controlled by members of the house. The Karanoks worship the daughter spheres, and they have been known to conjure forth scaly reptilian monsters (abishai) to enact the will of the Karanoks and Entropy itself.
So now to fill in a few of the gaps and round off a few of the corners... |
| Demzer |
Posted - 27 Sep 2013 : 21:11:58
Alright i take the "inert and stationary" back since Entropy appeared in the Karanok mansion around 1346 DR (Lords of Darkness), so at least it could teleport around (or be moved by someone else).
No reaction to the Pandorym hypotesis? Probably because it's unfounded ...
The link with Tiamat (the "Nemesis of the Gods") isn't all that bad for a supposedly god killing weapon (be it of primordial origin even), but Tiamat "noticed" the existence of Entropy and started giving spells through it only in 1370 DR (even splitting it to give the Karanoks portable spheres of annihilation). Another problem this rises is that by 1370 DR Tiamat already killed Gilgeam and Assuran completed her job by killing Ramman so there wasn't any Untheric pantheon left to antagonize or against which unleash a primordial weapon, maybe she wanted to destroy the Mulhorandi and Faerunian pantheon to.
Looking at the GHotR there are a few god-related events in the same years as the more recent Entropy-related happenings:
- 1346 (when Entropy appears in Luthcheq):
1) Bhaal's avatar the Ravager gets banished from the Moonshaes (the year before Kazgaroth tried the take over through the Darkwell);
2) After centuries of silence, an avatar of Tiamat gets summoned in Unther
- 1370 (when Tiamat started granting spells through Entropy):
1) Pandorym partially escapes imprisonment;
2) Velsharoon shifts allegiance from Talos to Mystra/Azuth (maybe exploiting the fact Talos lost a nice chunk of power with Tiamat's take over of Entropy IF Talos freed/was using the sphere first?);
All this means something? Honestly, i don't know, maybe someone else will make the connection.
Concerning "which gods has Entropy swallowed" i think Mr. B. R. James dropped a subtle hint in Dungeon 178 in the People section saying:"House Karanok, it is said, has the divine blood of Nanna-Sin coursing through their veins".
My interpretation: having killed Nanna-Sin during the Orcgate Wars, Entropy retained some link with the deity's blood(line) and in a moment of wakefulness (maybe caused by the apparition of Tiamat's avatar in Unther) teleported to the nearest trace of that same blood(line). |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 27 Sep 2013 : 17:45:25
quote:
Originally posted by ksu_bond
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
I just read the article, what i got from it is that it was a primordial that eagerly took part in the Dawn War (hence "God Swallower"), was bound by Ao (so it was inert and stationary) and was freed by the Spellplague and the reunion of the two worlds (and for some imperscrutable reason spared the Karakoks and Lutcheq and moved south-east to start it's anew it's swallowing program).
So i think this means that, for canon lore, it was inert and stationary from the Age before Ages until the Spellplague. No connection to the Imaskari or the Orcgate Wars or with the deities, just a big black ball doing nothing.
I hope i'm wrong.
No cannon ties no...but the 4e material does provide Entropy with a much older history that would allow for it to be apart of Imaskari plots and the Orcgate Wars.
The fun is in the piecing of it all together.
Exactly, that's why I was wondering if anywhere it had been stated when and how the "god-swallower" name had been tagged to it. I'm guessing from all these responses that nowhere has such ever been notated. I'd personally like for it to be that the remaining Theurgist Adepts actually acted behind the scenes in the orcgate wars and used it to kill a deity, and thus humanity gave it the name god-swallower. I'm thinking along the lines of what I showed earlier (some kind of portal trap.. deity is dropped into Entropy from a portal constructed above it maybe... maybe Theurgists use some spell to temporarily shunt the endpoint of a portal). Maybe there's still a small portion of the body left. Maybe absorbing this divine entity after Ao froze it actually re-awoke it somewhat.... I'm not even sure which deity works best here, but I'm just seeing a story that sounds like something worthwhile. My leanings are toward Utu, the Untheric god of the sun, as being killed by these Theurgists in this way (and yes, this does show that not 1 but 2 sun gods died in -1071 DR... Re and Utu).
If you've been reading my other thread with Myrkul... I'm somewhat relating this to the Myth of Four Rivers where the Dark Three are trying to capture the sun with aid from "the Sea". I'm kind of wondering if they weren't trying to wipe out a third sun deity in that myth around the same time.
That being said, I also like the idea that its some kind of primordial being, and if Talos is also some primordial being and the disappearance of Talos from the realms has freed Entropy in 4th edition (as a slight twist to what is stated in the dungeon mag and nod to previous lore)... that makes me even happier. I'd be interested to know what deities it slew back then, though I severely doubt that will ever be documented.
Anyway, these are all ideas I'm just throwing out for the express purpose of playing "what if". I was pretty certain when I started the thread that nowhere were there any gods documented, but sometimes people surprise you and come up with canon links you've never seen. |
| ksu_bond |
Posted - 27 Sep 2013 : 16:18:00
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
I just read the article, what i got from it is that it was a primordial that eagerly took part in the Dawn War (hence "God Swallower"), was bound by Ao (so it was inert and stationary) and was freed by the Spellplague and the reunion of the two worlds (and for some imperscrutable reason spared the Karakoks and Lutcheq and moved south-east to start it's anew it's swallowing program).
So i think this means that, for canon lore, it was inert and stationary from the Age before Ages until the Spellplague. No connection to the Imaskari or the Orcgate Wars or with the deities, just a big black ball doing nothing.
I hope i'm wrong.
No cannon ties no...but the 4e material does provide Entropy with a much older history that would allow for it to be apart of Imaskari plots and the Orcgate Wars.
The fun is in the piecing of it all together. |
| Demzer |
Posted - 27 Sep 2013 : 16:00:20
I just read the article, what i got from it is that it was a primordial that eagerly took part in the Dawn War (hence "God Swallower"), was bound by Ao (so it was inert and stationary) and was freed by the Spellplague and the reunion of the two worlds (and for some imperscrutable reason spared the Karakoks and Lutcheq and moved south-east to start it's anew it's swallowing program).
So i think this means that, for canon lore, it was inert and stationary from the Age before Ages until the Spellplague. No connection to the Imaskari or the Orcgate Wars or with the deities, just a big black ball doing nothing.
I hope i'm wrong. |
| Demzer |
Posted - 27 Sep 2013 : 14:28:28
Uh ... since no one said it before i think it's wrong but ... what if Entropy is just Pandorym's body?
I say this without having read Darkvision (i think this is the novel with Pandorym) so maybe Pandorym's Faerunian body it's revealed in that novel and it's not Entropy, if that is the case, disregard this post. |
| ksu_bond |
Posted - 27 Sep 2013 : 12:57:15
Update - after looking over Magic of Faerun (mentions that they "can call forth scaly reptilian monsters from the sphere to do their bidding"), Volo's Guide to All Things Magical, Spellbound, Old Empires, and the FRCS 1085, while these sources discuss Entropy none of them discuss its origin.
Just finished skimming Maiden of Pain, it also seems to only provide general information.
The first source I've found linking Entropy as an aspect of another deity (Talos) is the REAlMS-L article by Thomas Costa. The next link appears in the Lords of Darkness, with Tiamat is granting powers to the worshipers of Entropy. Then in Dungeon 178, this history of Entropy is re-written making it an "imprisoned" primordial that was freed by the Spellplague.
Still haven't found any thing in my Dragon, Dungeon, or Polyhedron Magazines (though I did find stats for the vampire Karanok in one of the Polyhedron issues)... |
| ksu_bond |
Posted - 27 Sep 2013 : 01:30:31
I recall Shar being connected as well...which was why I was irritated by the Tiamat thing that evolved in 3.5e and 4e only muddles things up even more...I'll look through my Dragon and Polyhedron magazines over the weekend... |
| The Arcanamach |
Posted - 27 Sep 2013 : 01:07:57
As I recall, Entropy was supposed to be an avatar of Shar but I haven't been able to locate the reference. I think it was in an a Dragon article, problem is, I have too many to look through so it's taking me some time. Then again, it could have been in an online article, I just don't know. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 27 Sep 2013 : 01:00:54
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
Maybe that was the original link (Talos instead of Shar) <snip>
NOPE...
I recall the connection to Shar as well, so we can't both be crazy. I'll try to find it. It may have been in an online article (back when they were still free, during the 3e era, I am guessing).
EDIT: looking at the 'rollcall' here, seems to me there were a bunch of gods mighty interested in tapping-into Entropy's gig. Wonder how the 'Dark Three' missed that one (could Entropy be one of the missing 'Lost Gods'?) |
| xaeyruudh |
Posted - 26 Sep 2013 : 06:04:03
I'm also in a 4e-free zone. I made Entropy an advanced umbral blot from ELH, but that's homebrew and not based on any canon except its description in FR10 as a large sphere of annihilation and the implication that it's intelligent. I hadn't worked on an origin for it... Shar works, I just didn't use her because I have other plans for her activity in the old empires.
I still favor making Entropy an umbral blot, although umbral blots are constructs and that means someone built them. The next question is who, and the Imaskari are a too easy/convenient/overused answer for me. Making Entropy a primordial is also too easy/convenient.
However, it does make a lot of sense for the Imaskari to make something like the umbral blots if their intent was to destroy the servants of gods. Then the name God-Swallower makes all kinds of sense.
It also makes some sense for the priestesses of Tiamat in Unther to "put out feelers" to explore the benefits of an alliance with Entropy (and any/every other significant power with little or no interest in conquering Unther), prior to the fall of Gilgeam when they were more desperate for allies. An alliance between House Karanok and the followers of Tiamat is very unlikely, but not nearly as unlikely as a connection with Tiamat herself. I see no reason for her to have anything to do with Entropy... and no reason for it to refrain from swallowing her just as quickly as it would any other god or mortal.
Just me, gettin my ramble on. |
| The Arcanamach |
Posted - 26 Sep 2013 : 02:25:47
But how would you tie that in with Tiamat (unless you simply disregard it)? |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 26 Sep 2013 : 02:11:13
quote:
Originally posted by ksu_bond
Here is a new wrinkle...according to the old FR-Listserv http://oracle.wizards.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0204c&L=realms-l&P=7160" target="_blank"> http://oracle.wizards.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0204c&L=realms-l&P=7160 , Entropy was yet another creation of Talos in his efforts to undermine Mystra...so this begs the question, and since Thomas M. Costa wrote the write up, how does this impact cannon?
Nice. I had forgotten about the temple of Entropy in Bezantur. I remember years ago planning on using that for a guild of mage slaying bounty hunters.
This lore can still work with the canon lore if we accept one piece of canon lore that I hate in 4e as false anyway (the idea that Talos and Gruumsh are the same being). As I view it, Gruumsh was taking advantage of Talos' absence after the spellplague and using his name as an alias. Basically, we found out that Kossuth, Grumbar, Akadi, and Istishia were primordials. In my mind, Talos fits the primordial mold as well.. but a primordial who maybe actually takes some notice of his worshippers and has learned something of the workings of "gods" and worship "energy". Perhaps Entropy was a being "born" of the "flesh" of Talos. Thus, the piece that Talos created Entropy and Entropy being a primordial are both true. |
| The Arcanamach |
Posted - 26 Sep 2013 : 01:09:25
Maybe that was the original link (Talos instead of Shar). Seems to be another case of folks not doing their homework at Wizbro. I'm ignorant of 4e Realms for the most part...was Talos supposed to be another 'mask' for Tiamat (or vice versa)? |
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