| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Plaguescarred |
Posted - 17 Sep 2013 : 23:05:37
Dragon magazine 427 features an Eye on the Realms article on the Sundering by Ed Greenwood.
The Sundering:To Rule Two Worlds
By Ed Greenwood
As Abeir and Toril move apart, a few fell
entities seek to rule parts of both worlds.
A handful of heroes oppose them, but they
need help—and fast.
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/dragon/2013September |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Therise |
Posted - 20 Sep 2013 : 15:59:36
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Have I actually used it in game-play? NO.
Have I used it as more then as a 'theoretical fix' for my over-all campaign(s)? YES.
My current mash-up - The Misbegotten Realms - includes the island sub-continent of Dathia, which has nearly all of the Returned Abeir lore attached to it (with the exception of Fimbrul & Relmaur, which will be shunted up North somewhere). Ed Greenwood wrote that lore, and although I do not like the continent of Returned Abeir as presented, the lore itself is worth keeping. I merely moved it closer and made it infinitely more useful (I have an entire campaign planned for that region, which includes dragonborn and Red Curse Inheritors).
As of now, everything they have said points to the fact that 4e happened - they aren't doing a reset. If anything, they are moving the setting further forward. Since they aren't 'erasing' the lore, that means it all existed; what would be the point of just eliminating all of it now? It still won't go away - its here to stay. I'd rather use it then "just send it home."
We are never getting the 'classic Realms' back - we have our old boxes for that. Even if it looks and feels a lot like the old Realms, it still won't be, so no matter what, those that want that won't be happy. Trust me, I was one of the biggest proponents of a complete reset (heck, it worked for ST), but it isn't going to happen. We have to play the hand we are dealt (or just walk away).
Okay look, for one thing it's just not necessary to say the same old thing for the millionth time. I'm fully aware that they're not doing a reset to 1E or whatever, and that 4E Realms "happened".
HOWEVER, we still don't know exactly what a lot of the changes will be for 5E/Next. We just don't.
I'm in fact teasing you for your idea of the temporospatial "non-retcon" revisionism that you said was theoretically possible. Because the changes of the Sundering go backwards in time as well as forward, it is in fact possible to erase various things from future existence -without- having them be retcons. The 4E timeline happened, yes, it all existed and was real.
But because of the non-retcon timechange working in the past as well as the present and future, ANYTHING is possible.
That includes a possible future Realms that had Cyric and a ToT historically, but also didn't, in the new reality - because those elements were "wiped away" by the Sundering's timewinds. It's YOUR idea, I'm just taking it to its logical, yet paradoxical, possible conclusion.
And hey, it's wonderful that you liked parts of it and can use those in your homebrew mashup. That's exactly what a commercial product is for, but it doesn't mean that it needs to be retained as it is for 5E/Next in its current form.
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| Markustay |
Posted - 20 Sep 2013 : 15:52:14
Have I actually used it in game-play? NO.
Have I used it as more then as a 'theoretical fix' for my over-all campaign(s)? YES.
My current mash-up - The Misbegotten Realms - includes the island sub-continent of Dathia, which has nearly all of the Returned Abeir lore attached to it (with the exception of Fimbrul & Relmaur, which will be shunted up North somewhere). Ed Greenwood wrote that lore, and although I do not like the continent of Returned Abeir as presented, the lore itself is worth keeping. I merely moved it closer and made it infinitely more useful (I have an entire campaign planned for that region, which includes dragonborn and Red Curse Inheritors).
As of now, everything they have said points to the fact that 4e happened - they aren't doing a reset. If anything, they are moving the setting further forward. Since they aren't 'erasing' the lore, that means it all existed; what would be the point of just eliminating all of it now? It still won't go away - its here to stay. I'd rather use it then "just send it home."
We are never getting the 'classic Realms' back - we have our old boxes for that. Even if it looks and feels a lot like the old Realms, it still won't be, so no matter what, those that want that won't be happy. Trust me, I was one of the biggest proponents of a complete reset (heck, it worked for ST), but it isn't going to happen. We have to play the hand we are dealt (or just walk away). |
| Therise |
Posted - 20 Sep 2013 : 15:33:17
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Awwwww... don't kill off Abeir. I've grown rather fond of it, as a tool.
Have you actually used it for gameplay, in any real practical sense? Or just for theorizing or as an abstract tool for "fixing" lore elements?
Kill it with fire, I say. No bits and pieces raining down on Toril. All of it can go, won't miss it for a nanosecond.
In fact, use this retro-temporal-world-altering magic that "isn't retconning" to say that it existed only so long as it needed to for AO's purposes - and that now it's no longer needed, it can be "erased from the design" retroactively because AO's purpose and need for it is not only complete but no longer exists.
So originally it didn't exist, then it did, but now it no longer exists because the second sundering has effectively erased its necessity. Like an errant timeline fading into the mists of non-creation, the paradox is resolved with it fading from existence.
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| Markustay |
Posted - 20 Sep 2013 : 13:24:01
Awwwww... don't kill off Abeir. I've grown rather fond of it, as a tool.
How about this - Abeir gets broken apart with much of it re-absorbed by Toril, which allows all sorts of in-setting fixes. Pretty sure that how they are going to handle it with this Sundering thing anyway. Buuuut... how about instead of the rest still being its own world, it gets shunted into 'the mists', as either a new continent in the Domains of Dread, or as part of the core. We just use RL as our dump for the unwanted parts.
Ravenloft as a 'planer landfill'... kinda like New Jersey.  |
| Lilianviaten |
Posted - 20 Sep 2013 : 03:40:21
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
quote:
silverwolfer
still seems a fundamental flaw in thinking that some mere ritual could overwhelm AO.
That may be untrue, since the source of the ritual was never revealed. Szass Tam could have quite easily obtained this knowledge from other worlds, from other planes, even powers and deities (and competitors?) from entirely outside of Ao's dominion - regardless whether they be living or long, long dead and forgotten.
Planescape lore (and, to a lesser degree, Spelljammer lore) warns of worlds which have been destroyed by arrogant mortals wielding inexplicable god-defying magics they found floating around the deepest layers of the Astral or the Abyss. The DarkSun world, Athas, is a well-known example of how a world and its gods can die from wanton abuse of powerful magic.
Of course the final fact of the matter is that far too many people (and a few corporations) have invested far too much love into the Realms. While Toril might be forced to sometimes endure some heavyhanded wholesale butchery and cratering it's just too much of a beloved cash-cow to ever be apocalyptically incinerated, no matter how cool Szass Tam or Cyric or Shar or Volo some other force of raw unstoppable destruction might appear. The so-called world of Abeir, however, is a bit of a pariah - methinks it might be sacrificed on the hungry altar of Edition Updates if and when Wizbro feels confident that the time for "something big and world shaking" is needed.
It's also worth noting that Vhostym the Sojourner (a gith spellcaster from Paul Kemp's excellent "Erevis Cale" trilogy) recalled his memories of having killed entire worlds. He was a 10,000 year old epic level mage and psion, who had probably plane walked just about everywhere. So you're correct. The existence of magic powerful enough to destroy planets is not a new idea in FR.
We may even consider the elves. The Sundering was accomplished by magic, as well as the complete destruction of Jhaamdath and Miyeritar. I believe it was the dragons who created the Tears of Selune using magic. The sarrukh accidentally wiped out one of their own empires using magic (rerouting a major body of water to defeat the phaerimm). The phaerimm were destroying Netheril with life draining spells. The Imaskari kept the Mulan gods from answering the prayers of their faithful with magic.
So given that we've seen magic decimate empires, it's quite feasible that magic could become powerful enough to destroy worlds. And of course, we have some lore to provide evidence that magic has done just that, at least a few times in the past. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 20 Sep 2013 : 03:16:34
I was referring to the consequences of magic use on Athas, and only as an illustrative example. |
| silverwolfer |
Posted - 20 Sep 2013 : 01:44:43
I think dark sun is a bad example thou, the magic system is basically the equal of maybe mid or mid-high level magic, and you draw from the plants and such, it is sort of like druid magic filtered through crack. While faerun magic is pretty much on a divine spigot. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 20 Sep 2013 : 01:29:16
quote:
silverwolfer
still seems a fundamental flaw in thinking that some mere ritual could overwhelm AO.
That may be untrue, since the source of the ritual was never revealed. Szass Tam could have quite easily obtained this knowledge from other worlds, from other planes, even powers and deities (and competitors?) from entirely outside of Ao's dominion - regardless whether they be living or long, long dead and forgotten.
Planescape lore (and, to a lesser degree, Spelljammer lore) warns of worlds which have been destroyed by arrogant mortals wielding inexplicable god-defying magics they found floating around the deepest layers of the Astral or the Abyss. The DarkSun world, Athas, is a well-known example of how a world and its gods can die from wanton abuse of powerful magic.
Of course the final fact of the matter is that far too many people (and a few corporations) have invested far too much love into the Realms. While Toril might be forced to sometimes endure some heavyhanded wholesale butchery and cratering it's just too much of a beloved cash-cow to ever be apocalyptically incinerated, no matter how cool Szass Tam or Cyric or Shar or Volo some other force of raw unstoppable destruction might appear. The so-called world of Abeir, however, is a bit of a pariah - methinks it might be sacrificed on the hungry altar of Edition Updates if and when Wizbro feels confident that the time for "something big and world shaking" is needed. |
| Lilianviaten |
Posted - 19 Sep 2013 : 20:58:05
quote:
Originally posted by silverwolfer
still seems a fundamental flaw in thinking that some mere ritual could overwhelm AO.
Well, we don't know that it can. Nobody's ever tried it, and for all we know, it might simply wipe Tam out along with all of Thay (or more). Archwizards often overestimate what they can do. HOWEVER, I like the idea. Magic is not supposed to have an end. There are things that no mage has yet discovered how to do, but it doesn't mean they can't be done. The spell was probably planted on Faerun by some evil god. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 19 Sep 2013 : 03:37:53
Woot!
Lunchtime reading from Ed.  |
| silverwolfer |
Posted - 19 Sep 2013 : 02:13:38
still seems a fundamental flaw in thinking that some mere ritual could overwhelm AO. |
| Lilianviaten |
Posted - 18 Sep 2013 : 23:35:56
This worldfire seems to fit in perfectly with Szass Tam's ritual to become an overgod and remake existence. He would have to be tapping into Toril itself to attain that much power. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 18 Sep 2013 : 13:47:59
There is no such thing as a 'retcon', at least not in FR. We have canon evidence of things that "make changes backwards and forwards in time", ergo, with a simple (chronomantic) ritual, you alter the past, and WALLA, 'bright new future' (or dim one - whatever the case may be).
So if the Sundering is this 'tear in reality' it sounds like, and Ao split worlds, etc... that means Abeir-Toril's history was already retconned, right from the beginning (not the published beginning, but the 'Dawn of Time' for FR). Its was never a perfect fix, so every few milenia he has to break-out the 'Gorilla Glue' and paste things together anew (especially with those pesky elves constantly mucking with the timestream).
At least, thats my take. They can do whatever they want to FR in 5e, and if its good, I'll buy it. The term 'retcon' has become completely defused in my head (in regards to FR).
As for ruling two worlds - I'd be happy just ruling this one. 
EDIT: Forget that puny Thayan artifact - what we really need to be focusing on is the The Shadow of Ao (see the 4e campaign guide, pg.210) - apparently "the relic is said
to have the power to twin the world anew." 
As he did in the beginning, Ed once-again hid a 'reset switch' right in the lore. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 18 Sep 2013 : 12:48:39
The possibilities as always are endless |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 18 Sep 2013 : 12:32:12
Oh, and nothing says that another world has to be another prime... it can just as easily pull energy from say an inner or outer plane. Hmmmm.... wonder if anyone drew in the energy of Mystra's home plane when it was destroyed. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 18 Sep 2013 : 12:29:00
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
So going by the definition of worldfire does that imply that the Red Wizards using that artifact in Amruthar (or whatever it is called) were draining magic from Abeir (before the two worlds rejoined) to empower themselves.
If so, i love that idea. When i get round to rewriting how Abeir and Toril rejoined i will make Abeir full of wraiths - people that were drained of their magic to fuel the Red Wizard's spellcasting.
Then when the worlds join these wraiths are going to want revenge (on everyone of course because they are insane undead).
Not necessarily. Bear in mind, if it was a Raumathari constructed artifact, it could be that they built it to drain from the world that the invading orcs were coming from for the Orcgate wars (possibly after the war ended). It could also have been an item created by the Theurgist Adepts or Imaskari to draw upon the magic of the world from which the Mulan slaves were drawn (which COULD explain why its said that that world had no magic... and as some believe, that world could have been earth... or another world). |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 18 Sep 2013 : 12:22:57
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
I don't have a membership for DnD Insider (something that I do NOT regret, for the most part...they aren't getting my money until they prove themselves worthy again) so what is Worldfire and what previous lore do we have for it? Or is this just gonna be another lame attempt to retcon ideas into the Realms?
from the article
A third is worldfire, the concept of draining the
energies of one world or plane of existence through a
magical conduit, ravaging it locally in the process, to
empower a spellcaster in another beyond the powers
they would normally be able to wield.3 |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 18 Sep 2013 : 12:21:06
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
Imaskar is the magicracy that opposed magic, Thay has no problem with religion, or at least no religion that doesn't pose a threat to it (I'm talking pre 4e).
Of course post 4e Thay all but belongs to the church of Bane and has banned other faiths.
Glantri outlawed religion except for a few cults. Thay made it take a back seat and made sure that they understood they would have no hand in governance. |
| Gyor |
Posted - 18 Sep 2013 : 10:48:20
lurking legend and paronder, what the heck are those? |
| Plaguescarred |
Posted - 18 Sep 2013 : 09:20:57
I liked the concept of Worldfire brought by Ed. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 18 Sep 2013 : 08:59:57
And any new ideas are welcome if they are well thought out and dont outright contradict or annihilate old lore in my book.
I liked the idea of the shadow weave when it was introduced in 3rd edition (the implementation was a little sloppy).
I loved the idea of rejoining abeir and toril and sleeping primordials. Again the implementation was sloppy, in fact so sloppy someone needs shooting but its nothing i cant rework.
This worldfire idea is looking great especially since it helps explain old lore. I will have to look into it more. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 18 Sep 2013 : 08:54:13
So going by the definition of worldfire does that imply that the Red Wizards using that artifact in Amruthar (or whatever it is called) were draining magic from Abeir (before the two worlds rejoined) to empower themselves.
If so, i love that idea. When i get round to rewriting how Abeir and Toril rejoined i will make Abeir full of wraiths - people that were drained of their magic to fuel the Red Wizard's spellcasting.
Then when the worlds join these wraiths are going to want revenge (on everyone of course because they are insane undead). |
| The Arcanamach |
Posted - 18 Sep 2013 : 08:19:29
@Wooley: I'm not implying that Ed is retconning anything, sorry for that misunderstanding. What I am stating (as a possibility) is Ed could have 'agreed' to a new concept brought on by WotC staff. Given that another thread has mentioned a change in what succubi/incubi are likely to be in 5e, I'd say that the possibility of retcons are still up for application to the Realms. That's just my two cents, didn't mean to cause the thread to degenerate into something unintentional.
Since we now have a tentative definition of what 'worldfire' is we can now move on to something more constructive (it doesn't seem like a retcon now). I say 'tentative' because I'm sure more will be revealed beyond the scope of the definition given.
My speculation: 'Ravaging it locally' could mean something akin to defiler magic from Athas (since ravening fire isn't occurring). Or, it could deplete magic from that world (since in the Realms magic=life...and this ties into defiler magic as well). |
| Jeremy Grenemyer |
Posted - 18 Sep 2013 : 07:34:52
Interesting you should mention Finder, as the article states in the second paragraph that outside of wizards, priest of Mystra and sages with a focus on the Art, bards too know something of the Secrets of the Art embodied in the terms worldfire, lurking legend and paronder. |
| silverwolfer |
Posted - 18 Sep 2013 : 07:14:03
This sounds ripe for a planescape adventure :D ..... M-M , I want finder back. |
| Jeremy Grenemyer |
Posted - 18 Sep 2013 : 07:06:57
No offense intended towards those who've participated in this scroll, but I can't think of a better way to mentally handicap one's ability to enjoy the Realms or otherwise crap on a conversation and send it spiraling down the drain than by applying a false test to all newly published material that says any content not grounded in prior lore is a retcon.
So how about we just avoid the whole concept of "retcon" for now and get back to the subject at hand, hey?
Thus, the concept of Worldfire:quote:
...the concept of draining the energies of one world or plane of existence through a magical conduit, ravaging it locally in the process, to empower a spellcaster in another beyond the powers they would normally be able to wield.
That's the clinical definition.
Readers should also know this isn't meant to imply some sort of "raging conflagration" or thing of "ravening destruction", nor something that involves fire. Rather it's just a potent source of power, one dangerous to those who try to wield it if they're not careful and exacting in their efforts.
The definition should give a clue as to why I thought of the artifact in Amruthat, because the artifact seems to empower spellcasters in a way similar to what Worldfire does.
Other concepts introduced in the article include lurking legend and paronder. |
| ksu_bond |
Posted - 18 Sep 2013 : 06:28:30
Even the creator of a setting can retcon, otherwise known as a new idea that they had and wanted to add into their creation after their creation has been packaged and sold for 3 decades. So while I am holding out hope that worldfire has existed for Ed since the early days of the Realms and this has just been his first opportunity to introduce it...given WotC's history, I can understand someone being skeptical of the origins of new lore even when it is presented by someone in authority like Ed...as the saying goes, if it sounds and looks like a duck then it's a duck... |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 18 Sep 2013 : 06:16:08
quote:
Originally posted by silverwolfer
Any author has up points and down points my good Mr Rupert.
I'm not questioning the quality; I've more than once stated that Ed's fiction doesn't really work for me.
I'm asking how the creator of the setting can be said to be retconning something. |
| silverwolfer |
Posted - 18 Sep 2013 : 05:05:47
Any author has up points and down points my good Mr Rupert. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 18 Sep 2013 : 04:46:08
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
I don't have a membership for DnD Insider (something that I do NOT regret, for the most part...they aren't getting my money until they prove themselves worthy again) so what is Worldfire and what previous lore do we have for it? Or is this just gonna be another lame attempt to retcon ideas into the Realms?
I'd not call Ed-written material a lame retcon.  |
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