| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Dennis |
Posted - 28 Oct 2012 : 02:40:40
So we've learned from Elminster that the mages of Shade are weakened. But how and why? We would likely not know the answers until 5E comes out... Meanwhile, let's share some conjectures...
Mine are:
First: Telamont already revealed that his outsider body is beginning to fail him, and that he might have to use other means to prolong his existence. A lesser case can be applied to his sons. Their bodies fail to serve as a lasting conductor of heavy, powerful magic they wield almost everyday of their existence, and therefore can only cast it at a minimum, less draining level. They seek other forms of immortality, and consider lichdom a priority. But for some reason, no type of lichdom (so far) could sufficiently complement their current state, to the point that should they become liches now, they'd lose more and gain less...
Second: Telamont lost control of some of his alternate, contingency magical sources moments after the Spellplague hit Toril. Such alternate sources, rooted in unknown planes he himself discovered, and linked to the city's mythallar, were supposed to activate should the Shadow Weave shatter. But when both the W and the SW actually unraveled, the magical conductors that linked the mythallar and the alternate sources burst out of control as all the planes of existence shook and were disrupted by the SP.
Third: The simplest and probably spot-on: Shar's relatively weakened condition after her debacle with Mystra's assassination forced her to withdraw some of her exclusively given power-boost from the Shade princes and the city's priests.
Care to share yours? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 07 Nov 2012 : 21:13:25
Ah, well, of course, Elminster has <ahem> never been wrong before.
The Shadovar mages are weakening? Is this weakness measured in terms of the magical artifacts and spells at their command, or of their ability to practice magic, or of their basic nature as unliving shades?
If they are weakening as shades ... the most obvious possibility (already discussed) is that they've been away from the shadow plane for too long. Transforming into a shade - like any other form of cheating death - probably has drawbacks. Liches imprison their mind-souls within magical containers but witness their flesh decay into dust over the centuries. Vampires enjoy something like eternal youth but their humanity is subverted underneath an infectious and bestial hunger. Shades replace a part of their soul with the essence of shadow, they irrevocably lose a portion of their spiritual and physical substance within the impenetrable blackness ... perhaps they expect to suffer the fate of continued fading until they are ultimately no more than dark outlines of what they once were ... and perhaps this process is accelerated, they feed on their own shadowstuff and become shades of shades whenever they are away from the true shadowstuff which replenishes them.
Their fate in the Realms seems directly tied with the fates of Shar and Mask - and Lathander/Amaunator. When Mask weakens, when Shar's darkness grows too deep, when Morningboy's blinding radiance becomes too bright, the shadows grow thinner and lose substance ... and so too might the shades. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 07 Nov 2012 : 05:23:05
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
An alternate possibility: the Shadovar themselves are perfectly fine, but it is in fact their main mythallar (made of shadowstuff) which is becoming depleted over time. Their second mythallar at Sakkors would probably not be affected by a growing "distance" to the Shadowfell, but their shadow-fueled magical controls over it might be.
Plausible. Though Elminster noted that 'tis the city's mages who are weakened, and not the mythallar or the city itself.
On the other hand, it's also possible that the princes are taking turns to recharge the mythallar with shadow magic using their own power, thereby making themselves weak over time. |
| Tarlyn |
Posted - 07 Nov 2012 : 02:19:03
If Mystra/weave is returning as the "default" source of magic, I think there should be other options such as the shadow weave, the pact style magic of warlocks and 4e raw/generic magic etc. The design team might as well provide other sources of magic for those that do not enjoy the Mystra/weave concept. Otherwise, if the design team sticks with the generic magic as default might as well just make everything generic. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 07 Nov 2012 : 01:22:16
I would simply prefer that Shadow Magic vanish...I used it for my own Shade character Dalor Darden with the coming of 3e; but only because I thought that was the direction the rules were going...essentially that to be a Shade you would use Shadow Magic.
I've rethought that stance though...all through 1e and 2e Shades used normal ol' magic...so it is my hope that all magic will be much more simple and there won't be different KINDS of magic so much as different SOURCES of the same sort of magic.
Electricity is electricity (for the most part...I'm talking what is used in a home here in the U.S.)...it is how you TAP that electricity that varies from nation to nation... |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 07 Nov 2012 : 00:45:35
quote:
Wooly Rube
They are so infused with shadowstuff that their prolonged absence from the Shadow plane is causing their bodies to break down?
Always in motion are the planes. It might be that the Demiplane of Shadow Shadowfell no longer overlaps or coordinates with the Prime, ie: it has slipped a little out of "phase" or "alignment" and thus creatures of living shadow no longer enjoy the advantages they could before. The Shadowfell has always maintained some connection to the Prime, but it was somewhat tenuous in AD&D1E and really only gained peak potency between late AD&D2E and mid-D&D3E ... now, a couple of editions later, it might be time for the bridge between planes to begin drifting apart. A shade might now have to spend real energy, effort, resources, and time to reach "deeper" into the blackest pits of shadow, where once he needed to merely brush just under the surface of twilight.
It must've taken immense power to move Shade across the planes, so it kinda makes sense that (if planar orbits and conditions are constantly moving) old Telamont would choose to move Shade during a period of maximum potency - if for no other reason than to simply assure that he and the Shadovar would arrive on Faerūn with maximum energy at their disposal.
An alternate possibility: the Shadovar themselves are perfectly fine, but it is in fact their main mythallar (made of shadowstuff) which is becoming depleted over time. Their second mythallar at Sakkors would probably not be affected by a growing "distance" to the Shadowfell, but their shadow-fueled magical controls over it might be. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 06 Nov 2012 : 08:42:34
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
It would be interesting, I suppose, if the escaped phaerimm, those who saw the princes and their lackeys create the Shadowshell around Evareska, managed to learn to use shadow magic, burrow themselves again in Anauroch, hide from Telamont's prying eyes, and cast a shadow version of their lifedrain...
heh. Good thing Galereon saw and killed them so they could not leave with what they learned. But we have no idea if phaerimm can even use shadow magic. They are creatures of the weave, who rely on the weave magic to live.
It's not as though they were born from the Weave. They are a magical race, they feed and thrive in magic, and the Weave just happens to be the most accessible source of it. Remember that Telamont and Aeron used to be Weave-casters, too. Yet look at them now...
quote:
Come to think of it, whatever happened to them during the spellplague?
They didn't group and stay in one place, and the Spellplague didn't nuke all places at once, so it's very likely some of them survived. |
| Tarlyn |
Posted - 06 Nov 2012 : 02:50:11
I thought it was revealed that some of the weave remains heavily damaged but intact, I would imagine any remaining phaerimm live in areas with relatively more intact sections of weave. Although, the spell plague probably did reduce their numbers even further. |
| Firestorm |
Posted - 06 Nov 2012 : 02:14:48
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
It would be interesting, I suppose, if the escaped phaerimm, those who saw the princes and their lackeys create the Shadowshell around Evareska, managed to learn to use shadow magic, burrow themselves again in Anauroch, hide from Telamont's prying eyes, and cast a shadow version of their lifedrain...
heh. Good thing Galereon saw and killed them so they could not leave with what they learned. But we have no idea if phaerimm can even use shadow magic. They are creatures of the weave, who rely on the weave magic to live.
Come to think of it, whatever happened to them during the spellplague? |
| Firestorm |
Posted - 06 Nov 2012 : 02:12:18
We will probably know more as the Elminster Series progresses. We know now that Mystra and Azuth knew the spellplague was coming, and allowed Larloch to do what he was doing with the blueflame items to cheat the spellplague because the weave had become so unstable and had to be "renewed or replaced" |
| Dennis |
Posted - 06 Nov 2012 : 01:58:59
It would be interesting, I suppose, if the escaped phaerimm, those who saw the princes and their lackeys create the Shadowshell around Evareska, managed to learn to use shadow magic, burrow themselves again in Anauroch, hide from Telamont's prying eyes, and cast a shadow version of their lifedrain... |
| Markustay |
Posted - 06 Nov 2012 : 00:45:48
When was the epilogue set?
I didn't read the series, but if I recall there was a lot of discussion about it, and it was around 1385 DR, wasn't it? If the epilogue made it appear to be a fully functional settlement, then that would mean it was so before the Spellplague occurred. |
| Tarlyn |
Posted - 05 Nov 2012 : 23:20:14
Having checked the release date on the novels, it was earlier than I remembered. Myth Drannor still didn't receive enough coverage post the trilogy until 4e to use as anything other than a ruin. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 05 Nov 2012 : 17:12:18
quote:
Originally posted by Tarlyn
Myth Drannor was reclaimed at the end of 3e knowing that Evermeet was going to explode and elf characters would need a homeland. Sembia and Thay both technically also were changed in the bridge series between 3e and 4e.
Myth Drannor was reclaimed well before the end of 3E. I would challenge any assertation that it was done with foreknowledge of 4E, and ask for proof of this. |
| Tarlyn |
Posted - 05 Nov 2012 : 11:40:04
Myth Drannor was reclaimed at the end of 3e knowing that Evermeet was going to explode and elf characters would need a homeland. Sembia and Thay both technically also were changed in the bridge series between 3e and 4e. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 05 Nov 2012 : 03:59:27
quote:
Originally posted by Tarlyn
The point I was striving for is that the Sembia/Shade relations is one of the changes that doesn't get washed away since neither location is part of Abeir. If 5e Realms is going to revert everything back to its early 3e state or late 2e state, why did the design team bother keeping the 4e stuff at all? Flushing Abeir IMO is a good idea, but the other leftover 4e changes need some thought prior to just reverting them back to an older state. This includes areas like:
-Sembia
-Thay
-Calimshan
-Neverwinter
-The Silver Marshes and the Kingdom of Many Arrows
-Myth Drannor
All of these locations are dramatically different from their early expressions and I don't necessarily think that restoring them to a pre-4e state without considering evolving their current state is the best way forward. Well more truthfully, I would be perfectly happy with a return to late 2E or early 3e, but that isn't the direction that was chosen. In that light, I think the changes that have some relatively organic in setting explanations should not be immediately thrown out. Rather there should be an attempt to evolve the current situation, for instance why would Sembia revolt against Shade or why would Shade stop directly ruling Sembia?
Myth Drannor was not a 4E change. Myth Drannor was reclaimed in 3E. |
| Tarlyn |
Posted - 05 Nov 2012 : 03:35:43
The point I was striving for is that the Sembia/Shade relations is one of the changes that doesn't get washed away since neither location is part of Abeir. If 5e Realms is going to revert everything back to its early 3e state or late 2e state, why did the design team bother keeping the 4e stuff at all? Flushing Abeir IMO is a good idea, but the other leftover 4e changes need some thought prior to just reverting them back to an older state. This includes areas like:
-Sembia
-Thay
-Calimshan
-Neverwinter
-The Silver Marshes and the Kingdom of Many Arrows
-Myth Drannor
All of these locations are dramatically different from their early expressions and I don't necessarily think that restoring them to a pre-4e state without considering evolving their current state is the best way forward. Well more truthfully, I would be perfectly happy with a return to late 2E or early 3e, but that isn't the direction that was chosen. In that light, I think the changes that have some relatively organic in setting explanations should not be immediately thrown out. Rather there should be an attempt to evolve the current situation, for instance why would Sembia revolt against Shade or why would Shade stop directly ruling Sembia? |
| Dennis |
Posted - 04 Nov 2012 : 17:35:12
quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
Good point, also in the past Sembia did not have to deal with both a revived Cormanthor and a powerful Cormyr at the same time. I believe that would have been able to survive the wars they had with these realms without the assistance of the Shade. This assistance would also create loyalty in the heart of the ordinary citizen and especially the soldiers as we saw clearly happening in the Battle for Selagaunt.
Agreed. Besides, for Sembians, coin comes first before patriotism or any sentimentality to their country. As long as Shade is handling the economy well, then... |
| Markustay |
Posted - 04 Nov 2012 : 17:03:49
Lets see....
The Wizards that live on yon coast* decided that most folks do not like the Shades, and cast an epic, high-magic "nerf 'em" ritual?
Because thats what really happened, all conjecture aside.
It doesn't matter to me at all how they handle the Shade problem, or if they even bother to do anything with them at all. They were one of the few 3e 'adds' that I disliked, but in retrospect, with 4e now behind us, they weren't really all that bad (Abolethic Sovereignty?) When you put things in perspective, the Shades are a minor hiccup in the FR IP.
IN a multi-spheric, all-encompassing fantasy setting like D&D/FR, there are an infinite number of ways to address a reduction in Shade power. You could say Billy - a newborn Overgod from another reality - stumbles into Faerūn and has an argument with Telemont, and he says, "You are a bad man! You go to the cornfield!" And then the Shade Enclave disappears, leaving only a handful of Shades (and all their operatives) outside of Anauroch. Billy gets bored and leaves (after 'cleeaning up' any other FR messes).
Yes, thats ridiculous, but it would work. So would anything else. Its all conjecture and doesn't really matter. The reasoning will be whatever they say it will be. I just hope Ed has a hand in that decision, because then I know it will at least make sense within the greater FR lore framework.
@Firestorm - according to TSR/WotC's own statements in the past, the 'sweet spot' for gaming ended around level 12, which is when most campaigns would peter-out. I am not being contentious or anything, but if 90% or more of the consumers do not need a certain 'feature' of a product-line, is it prudent to continue to push it? I personally do not care if they stay or go - I simply ignore them. I would prefer they not be in the lime-light so much, just to make that easier for me, but if they don't, its no big deal. Canon only effects the fiction, NOT my games.
*I found a reference to "Wizards of the Coast" last week in a Volo's Guide, and found it quite amusing. Obviously, FR had them before D&D did.  |
| Firestorm |
Posted - 04 Nov 2012 : 15:19:26
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
Maybe they need to break down so they can be viable and defeatable villains. How could a PC possibly defeat Telamont Tanthul? Their level of power seemed silly and over the top from the get-go. I am not keen on the idea of their being mortals with character levels exceeding 30. Off with their heads!
Only if you are a low level player.
Plenty of campaigns run for years and eventually, you too can reach epic level with a good group of players. I have played 2 of those and am nearing epic level in another over the last 18 years. |
| Thauranil |
Posted - 04 Nov 2012 : 12:38:15
Good point, also in the past Sembia did not have to deal with both a revived Cormanthor and a powerful Cormyr at the same time. I believe that would have been able to survive the wars they had with these realms without the assistance of the Shade. This assistance would also create loyalty in the heart of the ordinary citizen and especially the soldiers as we saw clearly happening in the Battle for Selagaunt. |
| Tarlyn |
Posted - 31 Oct 2012 : 16:21:14
Sembia's army in the past was hired mercenaries, not a volunteer force. Why would the Sembian merchant princes want to pay for that again? Not mention need to manage it. Unless it is significantly cheaper than the Shades taxes. Also, so long as the shades continue to promote their trading, why would the Sembians rebel? I agree that sembia typically doesn't have good relations with the countries i listed, so why not keep a strong ally? Shade also has poor relations with those countries. Sembia tends to be human centric, so does Netheril. Again, the two countries work well together if they split i would like to see a good reason given for it. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 31 Oct 2012 : 16:03:59
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Tarlyn
IMO it is important that the Sembia situation is handled thoughtfully. Unlike, the parts of returned Abeir which were just haphazardly thrown into the setting and thus can be haphazardly returned to Abeir. The Sembia situation actually evolved through good story telling. There are reasons why it is advantageous for Sembia to maintain strong ties to Shade, one would be the magical might the Shadovar provide to protect against / intimidate bordering nations like Cormyr, the Dalelands and Cormanthyr.
Why does Sembia need protection? For much of its existence, it's been the aggressor in conflicts with those nation-states...
Indeed. And that's a trend that pretty much goes back to the 2e boxed set, which made it clear that Sembia had long had eyes on exploiting neighbouring realms. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 31 Oct 2012 : 15:28:29
quote:
Originally posted by Tarlyn
IMO it is important that the Sembia situation is handled thoughtfully. Unlike, the parts of returned Abeir which were just haphazardly thrown into the setting and thus can be haphazardly returned to Abeir. The Sembia situation actually evolved through good story telling. There are reasons why it is advantageous for Sembia to maintain strong ties to Shade, one would be the magical might the Shadovar provide to protect against / intimidate bordering nations like Cormyr, the Dalelands and Cormanthyr.
Why does Sembia need protection? For much of its existence, it's been the aggressor in conflicts with those nation-states... |
| Tarlyn |
Posted - 31 Oct 2012 : 10:27:44
IMO it is important that the Sembia situation is handled thoughtfully. Unlike, the parts of returned Abeir which were just haphazardly thrown into the setting and thus can be haphazardly returned to Abeir. The Sembia situation actually evolved through good story telling. There are reasons why it is advantageous for Sembia to maintain strong ties to Shade, one would be the magical might the Shadovar provide to protect against / intimidate bordering nations like Cormyr, the Dalelands and Cormanthyr. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 22:10:36
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
Shar is destoying them after what happened in Twilight War.
I like this. Not because I want to see them destroyed, but because I want to see them completely independent from Shar, and to have my theory on Telamont's alternate source of shadow magic proven. Said theory was inspired by Vhostym's Weave Tap, the very first known conduit of magic that utilized both energies from the Weave and the Shadow Weave. Maybe a Psionic-Shadow Weave? Shadows strengthened and made more corporeal by the Invisible Art?
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
They are so infused with shadowstuff that their prolonged absence from the Shadow plane is causing their bodies to break down?
Plausible. However, the Shadovar can shadow-walk in and out of the Demiplane of Shadow at will. Hence, they can do sunbathing, or rather, shadow-bathing, and charge their built-in batteries (which are their own bodies) at the DoS anytime they desire or need to.
Unless they require prolonged amounts of time in Shadow to maintain themselves, and they're too busy in Faerūn to spend the time they need to spend in Shadow.
Well, they can take turns. Say, a dozen of them in every month.
Whatever it is in Shadowfell that boosts their shadow-infused bodies, I suppose they can also import to their city, and contain it for a long period of time.
However, I think it's more of what the Shadowfell lacks---the source of too much light: the sun. Yes, there's a semblance of the sun in Shadowfell, but it's very muted. And yes, Thultanthar is suffused with shadows that even Aumaunator's sun could not penetrate. But maintaining such perpetual cloak of shadows could somehow tax even the most powerful of them. Not quickly, but in the long run...
Firestorm's quote from the sourcebook reminded me something that made me change my comment above...Telamont's outsider shadowstuff body is now failing. It is the nature of the shadowstuff then that would ultimately render the Shadovar weak. Shadowstuff is not of the Material Plane, and so it cannot hope to exist forever in the Prime. The Shadovar either have to planeshift back to the Plane of Shadow for a very long period of time, or suffer the deterioration of their bodies in Toril. |
| Quale |
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 14:30:34
Other possibilities
1. Their old enemies from Shadow followed them, in RotA the city was in a hurry to planeshift to Toril
2. Shar is destoying them after what happened in Twilight War |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 10:07:23
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
Maybe they need to break down so they can be viable and defeatable villains. How could a PC possibly defeat Telamont Tanthul? Their level of power seemed silly and over the top from the get-go. I am not keen on the idea of their being mortals with character levels exceeding 30. Off with their heads!
I didn't hear anyone complain about Larloch being too powerful and "un-defeatable"? So why can't Telamont be treated the same?
Seriously, though, one need NOT face Telamont to try to bring Shade down. There are many less risky, subtle ways to do that. Everyone should learn from the Chosen's desperation-driven mistake.
Laroch's off hiding in a crypt minding his own business. Telamont is actively ruling a hostile nation. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 09:45:00
quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
The archwizards (not necessarily the princes) can rule from their city. By virtue of powerful shadow scrying devices, like Brennus' oval mirror (not sure of the name), and Telamont's "world-window," the mages of Shade can 'monitor' Sembia's leaders regularly. They don't need a large number of troops to govern Sembia; the local leaders would do it for them.
Shade has also had a century to solidify it's control of Sembia. I would think in that time they would have worked to uncover the major potential threats to their rule and either converted or destroyed them, or simply outlived them. At this point virtually every Sembian has lived their entire life under Shade rule. If they have prospered, why would they seek to rock the boat? Likewise, what does Shade gain from acting like cruel overlords to the Sembians? Sembians care about gold first and how they earn it second (if at all). I just don't see a major push coming from inside Sembia to remove the Shades.
Of course, a century is also plenty of time for people to get thoroughly sick of the Shades, and for minor rumblings of discontent to blossom into widespread near-rebellion.
I agree that is a possibility, but I don't see a reason for why it would happen. What has Shade done overtly that the average Sembian would find bothersome enough to revolt over? I doubt their part in the civil war or Shadowstorm is widely known to anyone beyond the direct participants and they have no reason to spread such knowledge. They gain nothing by being cruel overlords or leveraging extreme taxes. What does it matter to the average Sembian if they are ruled by merchant-lords or Shades (or if the merchant-lords are themselves ruled by the Shades)? How does it impact them in a negative way? Virtually no one alive remembers "the good old days" where only home grown greed ruled the day in Sembia and not outsider greed.
I'm not saying the possibility isn't there, just that I don't see it coming about. PG.176 of the FRCG at the bottom says that major resistance lasted maybe a decade before the Shades dealt with it, one way or another, and that the Sembians live largely peaceful and profitable lives. That page also mentions that the Shades have grown dependent on Sembia for their economy so the Shades aren't going to do anything to jeprodize that.
All it would take is people wanting to rule themselves and to keep their money at home. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 08:18:22
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
Maybe they need to break down so they can be viable and defeatable villains. How could a PC possibly defeat Telamont Tanthul? Their level of power seemed silly and over the top from the get-go. I am not keen on the idea of their being mortals with character levels exceeding 30. Off with their heads!
I didn't hear anyone complain about Larloch being too powerful and "un-defeatable"? So why can't Telamont be treated the same?
Seriously, though, one need NOT face Telamont to try to bring Shade down. There are many less risky, subtle ways to do that. Everyone should learn from the Chosen's desperation-driven mistake. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 08:11:07
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
I'm not suggesting the shadar-kai would rebel- most of the ones prone to that are more likely to simply leave Shade controlled lands to independent shadar-kai enclaves. But shadar-kai are afflicted with a racial depression and tend towards extreme actions. Well trained or not, that attitude doesn't lend well towards military discipline.
I still fail to see how the shadar-kai could cause the wholesale weakening of Shade's mages. They don't even constitute half of Shade's army.
I'm thinking the cause is rather magical in nature. |
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