| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Firestorm |
Posted - 27 Oct 2012 : 03:09:42
His forgotten realm Wiki has been added to recently with a large number of things.
"The Prince of Shade often attacks Valindra Shadowmantle and her Thayan forces with the Gray Wolf Tribe as the front line. He wishes to close the Shadowfell portal inside the Dread Ring all the while keeping the Thayans reeling. In order to do this, he has sent the Mythallar of Kolthunral to invade the Thayan city of Surcross to end Thayan presence in Shadowfell. "
What sourcebook is this information coming from? And where did Shade get yet another Mythellar?
Or is it all fanfic on FR wikipedia |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Firestorm |
Posted - 12 Nov 2012 : 14:18:22
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Indeed. Funny that in The Twilight War he never showed any hint of fear towards his father. Maybe he just got better at hiding it?
I dunno, he got panicked and jumped to his feet, thoughts swirling when the most high mentioned "your mother would be proud of your accomplishments" in his tight voice.
Really panicked. He figured it out quickly enough, but he was definitely still the subservient son. He enjoyed the most high's praise so much in the first book specifically because it was so hard won.
Not the out and out fear he showed in this book. But he definitely was nervous around his father. Especially whenever Alashar's name was brought up |
| Dennis |
Posted - 11 Nov 2012 : 04:51:41
Well, it was noted that "the prince was at war with the priest," referring to his duty to his father and Shar respectively. He did try to reconcile his two-fold duty, and succeeded, or so he thought. |
| Xar Zarath |
Posted - 11 Nov 2012 : 04:41:17
Or maybe during the events of the Twilight War, it was the a situation dealing with Shar and his faith while during the ROTA it was only survival of the Empire. Perhaps his faith and his goddess superceded his home |
| Dennis |
Posted - 08 Nov 2012 : 17:50:28
Indeed. Funny that in The Twilight War he never showed any hint of fear towards his father. Maybe he just got better at hiding it? |
| Firestorm |
Posted - 07 Nov 2012 : 15:11:21
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Maybe he just got the numbers mixed up?
I think it would be interesting if indeed some of the princes were not Alashar's sons. Other than the reasons I mentioned above, such case would eventually allow us to further see Telamont's humanity. Despite his uncaring/neutral facade, he must favor some of his sons (specially, those of Alashar's), and care not that much for others. A humanized and imperfect villain is generally better than a monster who is a monster in every sense of the word.
Or the numbers/ages when Denning wrote the book were not out yet. Hard to say. I do prefer the idea that not all princes were born in that short interlude between when they went to the Demiplane of shadow and Karsus folly.
I love that passage from the siege where they mention Rivalen's age though. it also conveys the sheer dread they feel at the most high's displeasure.
The siege pg.311
>> Rivalen had battled 3 phaerimm at once, toe to thorn with no chance to call for help. He had dallied with twin succubae and awakened to find them....well he did not want to live that again. he had fought demons -- barehanded, by Shadow-- and been the one who flew away. And never, not in 800 years -- not even when he gave his spirit over to Shadowstuff--not once had he been frightened. Not like this.
"How?" the most high asked. His voice calm, gentle, even reasonable, in that terrible tone he assumed just before condemned someone to an eternity wandering the barrens of doom and despair. "can someone please explain this?" |
| Dennis |
Posted - 07 Nov 2012 : 05:08:44
Maybe he just got the numbers mixed up?
I think it would be interesting if indeed some of the princes were not Alashar's sons. Other than the reasons I mentioned above, such case would eventually allow us to further see Telamont's humanity. Despite his uncaring/neutral facade, he must favor some of his sons (specially, those of Alashar's), and care not that much for others. A humanized and imperfect villain is generally better than a monster who is a monster in every sense of the word. |
| Firestorm |
Posted - 06 Nov 2012 : 13:43:48
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
But Aglarel is a claric, soooo he might be as well.
Aglarel struck me as too loyal to his father (more loyal than Hadrhune was) that he most likely would defy Shar if his father orders him to. For some of the princes, Shar is just a means/tool.
Hmm. I didn't notice that tidbit about Yder. I haven't read any materials (game or novels) that indicate or hint that not all the princes are Alashar's.
Malagris has a bit of a disagreement with Yder and the most high mentions Yder's age on page 123-124 of the sorcerer, saying he is the 6th prince of shade and only a few centuries old.
But again, the ages Denning had in that novel look like they were largely ignored in future works of other authors. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 05 Nov 2012 : 21:08:38
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
But Aglarel is a claric, soooo he might be as well.
Aglarel struck me as too loyal to his father (more loyal than Hadrhune was) that he most likely would defy Shar if his father orders him to. For some of the princes, Shar is just a means/tool.
Hmm. I didn't notice that tidbit about Yder. I haven't read any materials (game or novels) that indicate or hint that not all the princes are Alashar's. |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 05 Nov 2012 : 20:54:27
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
I'd question the wisdom of anyone who's placing themselves in debt to Asmodeus, Bane, and Larloch.
'Tis a debt he does not intend to pay. 
Maybe, but it is kind of hard to welch to a god's debt. unless he actually succeeds in the unmaking and it works, which he will not.
He believes he would succeed, and for an arrogant, overconfident lich, that's all that matters.
Which is all kind of exactly my point. |
| Firestorm |
Posted - 05 Nov 2012 : 20:16:55
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Ah, I see. Upon pondering on it, I realized it would make sense, actually. By having their "supposed" mother (Shar's avatar) killed by their own brother, the princes would one day be aggressively against each other, and as you pointed out, Telamont despaired after losing Alashar. Shar wants to end all things in the long run, Shade included.
That and as far as I can tell, not all princes of Shade are born of Alashar.
Unless there is some reverse canon going on, Yder is only a few centuries old and Clariburnus is the youngest(Assuming Melagaunt was not younger since he is listed as "one of the youngest"). Alashar died over 1400 years ago. Telamont states Shar revealed it to him of Rivalen killing her more than a century after they fled Karsus folly.
Then again, those books said Rivalen was 800+ years old, not nearly 2000. But 2000 actually doesn't make sense in Canon either unless he was rounding up by several hundred years so maybe Rivalen was Rounding up to Tamlin his age a bit for show or the timeline just has a few holes lost in history with incorrect times.
According to the Netheril boxset. Shadow became involved with Alashar, faked his death and moved to the shadow plane all in the year 3469. Telamont was born in 3214(-645DR in Grand history of the realms). Karsus, born 3163 cast his Avatar spell in 3520. But other sources claim Thultanthar was founded in -1471(but did not specify who founded it). Lord Shadow began experiments on his discovery of the Demiplane of Shadow in -553.
In modern timetable, 3520 was -339DR. The modern timetable of 3469 was -390DR. In the grand History of the realms, it states Assassin Alashar/Lord Shadow met and were engaged in that year so it seems on par there.
In any case by 1374, Telamont himself is only 2019 years old and had not met Alashar until he was 255 years old. Rivalen cannot possibly be more than 1765 years old(if he was born the year after they were engaged and is in fact the eldest brother).
Ahhh timelines are fun. Yder seems dedicated to Shar more than any brother but Rivalen from what we saw of him. But Aglarel is a cleric, soooo he might be as well. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 05 Nov 2012 : 17:50:54
Ah, I see. Upon pondering on it, I realized it would make sense, actually. By having their "supposed" mother (Shar's avatar) killed by their own brother, the princes would one day be aggressively against each other, and as you pointed out, Telamont despaired after losing Alashar. Shar wants to end all things in the long run, Shade included. |
| Firestorm |
Posted - 05 Nov 2012 : 17:25:43
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
I still remember before the twilight wars books came out back in the early 2000's when people were speculating that Alashar Crywinds, Lord Shadow's consort, was in fact, an avatar of Shar herself, making children with Lord Shadow.
That kinda would not make sense. She ordered Rivalen to kill Alashar. If Alashar was Shar, then it would appear she ordered her servant to kill his own patron.
Yes, these speculations were out long before we knew that though. Killing an avatar would not have meant much. A god can have his avatar killed an infinite number of times without anything happening.
Yes, the death of an avatar would mean nothing to the deity. But why would she order to kill her own avatar?
Well, she was the one who wanted to drive Telamont to loneliness and despair. It is plausible that it was her long term plan :p
However, as I said, it was merely a theory that was circling around from before these books with Rivalen and his mother storyline were ever written back in the early 2000's.
Nobody had that information on the matricide when they were throwing these conjectures out there. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 05 Nov 2012 : 17:05:28
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
I'd question the wisdom of anyone who's placing themselves in debt to Asmodeus, Bane, and Larloch.
'Tis a debt he does not intend to pay.
Maybe, but it is kind of hard to welch to a god's debt. unless he actually succeeds in the unmaking and it works, which he will not.
He believes he would succeed, and for an arrogant, overconfident lich, that's all that matters. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 05 Nov 2012 : 17:00:15
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
I still remember before the twilight wars books came out back in the early 2000's when people were speculating that Alashar Crywinds, Lord Shadow's consort, was in fact, an avatar of Shar herself, making children with Lord Shadow.
That kinda would not make sense. She ordered Rivalen to kill Alashar. If Alashar was Shar, then it would appear she ordered her servant to kill his own patron.
Yes, these speculations were out long before we knew that though. Killing an avatar would not have meant much. A god can have his avatar killed an infinite number of times without anything happening.
Yes, the death of an avatar would mean nothing to the deity. But why would she order to kill her own avatar? |
| Firestorm |
Posted - 05 Nov 2012 : 16:47:58
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
I'd question the wisdom of anyone who's placing themselves in debt to Asmodeus, Bane, and Larloch.
'Tis a debt he does not intend to pay.
Maybe, but it is kind of hard to welch to a god's debt. unless he actually succeeds in the unmaking and it works, which he will not |
| Firestorm |
Posted - 05 Nov 2012 : 16:44:26
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
I still remember before the twilight wars books came out back in the early 2000's when people were speculating that Alashar Crywinds, Lord Shadow's consort, was in fact, an avatar of Shar herself, making children with Lord Shadow.
That kinda would not make sense. She ordered Rivalen to kill Alashar. If Alashar was Shar, then it would appear she ordered her servant to kill his own patron.
Yes, these speculations were out long before we knew that though. Killing an avatar would not have meant much. A god can have his avatar killed an infinite number of times without anything happening. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 05 Nov 2012 : 15:42:46
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
I still remember before the twilight wars books came out back in the early 2000's when people were speculating that Alashar Crywinds, Lord Shadow's consort, was in fact, an avatar of Shar herself, making children with Lord Shadow.
That kinda would not make sense. She ordered Rivalen to kill Alashar. If Alashar was Shar, then it would appear she ordered her servant to kill his own patron. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 05 Nov 2012 : 15:41:03
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
I'd question the wisdom of anyone who's placing themselves in debt to Asmodeus, Bane, and Larloch.
'Tis a debt he does not intend to pay. |
| Firestorm |
Posted - 05 Nov 2012 : 14:24:03
quote:
Originally posted by Thieran
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
[...]
I have been rereading ROTA and it seems Yder is only a few centuries old. Clairburnus is the only one younger(Other than Melagaunt)
[...]
It's Clariburnus, by the way, not "Clairburnus".
@Sage/Wooly: Maybe correct the title of the scroll?
Changed :p It happens |
| Thieran |
Posted - 05 Nov 2012 : 10:45:40
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
[...]
I have been rereading ROTA and it seems Yder is only a few centuries old. Clairburnus is the only one younger(Other than Melagaunt)
[...]
It's Clariburnus, by the way, not "Clairburnus".
@Sage/Wooly: Maybe correct the title of the scroll? |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 05 Nov 2012 : 07:43:21
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
One thing I was curious to is why Szass Tam is so friendly with a cult of Asmodeus. Since part of Bane's deal is only he can be worshiped in Thay....
The more he extends his reach, the more enemies he'd gain. So it's understandble that he's also trying to gather some allies, if only to betray them in the end.
Asmodeus is using Tam as a pawn to eliminate a cult of incompetent, unworthy worshipers.
Even when Tam rebels and betrays, he is doing Asmodeus' will.
Szass Tam's wiser now, or at least, he should be, after that debacle with the Goddess of Illusions.
I'd question the wisdom of anyone who's placing themselves in debt to Asmodeus, Bane, and Larloch. |
| Firestorm |
Posted - 05 Nov 2012 : 02:29:58
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
Yder is Rivalen's right hand.
Which would likely change as soon as word got out of Rivalen's matricide. By then, no brother would ever side with Rivalen, no matter the reason (Shar's will).
Brennus is dead set to kill Rivalen. Upon glimpsing that excerpt from Godborn, it's reasonable to guess that, knowing his brother is beyond his power now, he'd seek help from his other brothers, even if doing so means disobeying The Most High. He's loyal to his father, but he was and still is loyal to his beloved mother first. Emotions often cloud reason, so it'd be understandble if, in the end, he'd rather disobey his father than leave Rivalen unpunished.
Or, out of spite for Telamont (who once chained him), Mephistopheles would just 'appear' before any of the other Tanthuls and reveal the 'secret.'
I have been rereading ROTA and it seems Yder is only a few centuries old. Clairburnus is the only one younger(Other than Melagaunt)
It seems while all princes of Shade may be Telamont's sons, not all of the Sons are born of Alashar since she died not too far from around the time they fled to the plane of Shadow. Hard to say which since we have NDA's on all their ages.
I still remember before the twilight wars books came out back in the early 2000's when people were speculating that Alashar Crywinds, Lord Shadow's consort, was in fact, an avatar of Shar herself, making children with Lord Shadow. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 02 Nov 2012 : 22:49:20
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
One thing I was curious to is why Szass Tam is so friendly with a cult of Asmodeus. Since part of Bane's deal is only he can be worshiped in Thay....
The more he extends his reach, the more enemies he'd gain. So it's understandble that he's also trying to gather some allies, if only to betray them in the end.
Asmodeus is using Tam as a pawn to eliminate a cult of incompetent, unworthy worshipers.
Even when Tam rebels and betrays, he is doing Asmodeus' will.
Szass Tam's wiser now, or at least, he should be, after that debacle with the Goddess of Illusions. |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 02 Nov 2012 : 22:40:16
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
One thing I was curious to is why Szass Tam is so friendly with a cult of Asmodeus. Since part of Bane's deal is only he can be worshiped in Thay....
The more he extends his reach, the more enemies he'd gain. So it's understandble that he's also trying to gather some allies, if only to betray them in the end.
Asmodeus is using Tam as a pawn to eliminate a cult of incompetent, unworthy worshipers.
Even when Tam rebels and betrays, he is doing Asmodeus' will. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 02 Nov 2012 : 22:26:16
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
One thing I was curious to is why Szass Tam is so friendly with a cult of Asmodeus. Since part of Bane's deal is only he can be worshiped in Thay....
The more he extends his reach, the more enemies he'd gain. So it's understandble that he's also trying to gather some allies, if only to betray them in the end. |
| Firestorm |
Posted - 02 Nov 2012 : 22:10:21
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I think it would be a cool story if Rivalen (or one of the other princes) got Clariburnus stuck with the Neverwinter assignment in order to remove him as an obstacle to his plans. If he's a thousand miles away, he can't interfere with Rivalen's plans, which might involve moving against the Most High.
If there's any obstacle Rivalen has to remove, it's his father's personal guard, Aglarel.
Perhaps, though who knows what his plans might be?
I also don't think a personal confrontation is Rivalrn's style. Taking down an enemy like the Most High involves eroding his power base and compromising the loyalties of his followers. Maybe getting rid of Clariburnus is part of that effort.
In Shadowrealm, upon learning of his brother's matricide, Brennus once told his father that if he let Rivalen get a share of Mask's divine essence, it would be beyond his ability to 'punish' him. Telamont didn't contradict him, and just said that Rivalen's choice to embrace the Void is punishment enough. This may indicate that Rivalen surpassed his father. Though I doubt it. It would be foolish of Telamont to allow it. He could have simply absorbed the essence himself, or used a shadow vessel to contain it for future use. I suppose Rivelan knows it. Otherwise, he'd be overconfindent with his new-found power and challenge The Most High.
At the time, they also thought Rivalen was going to get all the divinity, not a 3rd of it |
| Firestorm |
Posted - 02 Nov 2012 : 22:07:08
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
Yder is Rivalen's right hand.
Which would likely change as soon as word got out of Rivalen's matricide. By then, no brother would ever side with Rivalen, no matter the reason (Shar's will).
Brennus is dead set to kill Rivalen. Upon glimpsing that excerpt from Godborn, it's reasonable to guess that, knowing his brother is beyond his power now, he'd seek help from his other brothers, even if doing so means disobeying The Most High. He's loyal to his father, but he was and still is loyal to his beloved mother first. Emotions often cloud reason, so it'd be understandble if, in the end, he'd rather disobey his father than leave Rivalen unpunished.
Or, out of spite for Telamont (who once chained him), Mephistopheles would just 'appear' before any of the other Tanthuls and reveal the 'secret.'
Assuming the Shadovar princes are all misty eyed nicer guys like Brennus who loved their mother. More than one of them might be like Rivalen or hated her, or are indifferent, etc
I mean, we talk about how Half of them probably plot and plan on killing the most high if they could ever pull it off |
| Dennis |
Posted - 02 Nov 2012 : 21:54:04
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
Szass Tam breaking his deal with a god who is known to not be kind to those who cross him is a very bad idea if you ask me, two words: divine wrath .
As if Szass Tam fears any gods. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 02 Nov 2012 : 21:26:11
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
Yder is Rivalen's right hand.
Which would likely change as soon as word got out of Rivalen's matricide. By then, no brother would ever side with Rivalen, no matter the reason (Shar's will).
Brennus is dead set to kill Rivalen. Upon glimpsing that excerpt from Godborn, it's reasonable to guess that, knowing his brother is beyond his power now, he'd seek help from his other brothers, even if doing so means disobeying The Most High. He's loyal to his father, but he was and still is loyal to his beloved mother first. Emotions often cloud reason, so it'd be understandble if, in the end, he'd rather disobey his father than leave Rivalen unpunished.
Or, out of spite for Telamont (who once chained him), Mephistopheles would just 'appear' before any of the other Tanthuls and reveal the 'secret.' |
| Dennis |
Posted - 02 Nov 2012 : 20:46:02
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I think it would be a cool story if Rivalen (or one of the other princes) got Clariburnus stuck with the Neverwinter assignment in order to remove him as an obstacle to his plans. If he's a thousand miles away, he can't interfere with Rivalen's plans, which might involve moving against the Most High.
If there's any obstacle Rivalen has to remove, it's his father's personal guard, Aglarel.
Perhaps, though who knows what his plans might be?
I also don't think a personal confrontation is Rivalrn's style. Taking down an enemy like the Most High involves eroding his power base and compromising the loyalties of his followers. Maybe getting rid of Clariburnus is part of that effort.
In Shadowrealm, upon learning of his brother's matricide, Brennus once told his father that if he let Rivalen get a share of Mask's divine essence, it would be beyond his ability to 'punish' him. Telamont didn't contradict him, and just said that Rivalen's choice to embrace the Void is punishment enough. This may indicate that Rivalen surpassed his father. Though I doubt it. It would be foolish of Telamont to allow it. He could have simply absorbed the essence himself, or used a shadow vessel to contain it for future use. I suppose Rivelan knows it. Otherwise, he'd be overconfindent with his new-found power and challenge The Most High. |
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