| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| combatmedic |
Posted - 04 Sep 2012 : 00:16:18
My copy of the OGB lists Elminster's patron god as 'none.'
Not Mystra-- 'none.' An error? Maybe, but consider the possibilities...
Being as nearly all the FR NPCs in the older sources had a patron god listed, his exception suggests something special. Is he a skeptic or humanist of some kind? An egostistical SOB who won't bow to the gods because he thinks of himself as semi-divine?
If he doesn't honor the gods, then he consequently can't expect a lick of help from any of them. He's not Chosen. He's not Mystra's lover, or any of that other stuff that was added/revealed later.
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| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| combatmedic |
Posted - 04 Oct 2015 : 04:20:04
quote:
Originally posted by Mr Dark
Going by just the OGB, I would have Elminster as more of an unreliable narrator than an objective one. Interestingly enough, I have considered basing the next phase of my campaign out of the Greybox and first few supplements and leave everything else out.
That sounds good to me.
I know I am not the first person to suggest it, but I like the idea that Elminster lied about how powerful he was. Level 26+?
Naw, son, try 13. Heck, maybe even as low as level 6 or 7.
And his other level estimates for people are just that, estimates. Guesswork.
|
| combatmedic |
Posted - 01 Oct 2015 : 17:13:10
Elminster and apotheosis
Maybe he has no patron because he's attempting to become a god in his own right?
He fears that Mystra will try to prevent this, unless he agrees to become her minion.
But he is CG and Mystra is LN, so there is a significant alignment clash between the two of them.
This version of Elminster spends most of his time and effort seeking godhood. That is why he is not more active in worldly affairs. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 01 Oct 2015 : 13:54:03
quote:
Originally posted by Alefian
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I have no doubts that Elminster's history has grown just at the campaign world has. I'm betting his original history had nothing to do with him being a prince, etc... It'd be just like if someone had asked me if Sleyvas had always been written up with a history of having been on the earth around the civil war (in the Mask of the Red Death world). I'd honestly have to say that no he wasn't, it came out of interacting with another gamer who had an NPC he created named Alefian, and mutually we had agreed that his character was the long lost son (as in my character knew nothing of him) of my character. I can say though that Sleyvas did originally start out in Raveloft as an NPC red wizard, and he did have pistols from the start (based on the FR rules for firearms of that time.... it was only after he returned to Toril from the MotRD campaign that he actually had six shooters). Did I always have him as an anti-hero because his wife was killed by a paladin? yes. Did I always have his wife named and have a history that he'd confessed before an altar of Shar the sin that when she was murdered he was off with another woman? No. Stuff happens as character's build.
The one thing I'll say is that I'll never run a campaign strictly about what was in the OGB... it was too vague. Now, I COULD base a campaign strictly off what was done in 2nd edition. I could base a campaign off the changes in 3rd edition. I wouldn't want to base one off what was done in 4th edition, BUT I could pass up that time and base one on a new realms... if the story elements and realmslore are there. I could even run a "time" campaign with players traversing between the 2e, 3e, and possibly 5e timelines (using the general time rules as presented in 2e chronomancer product, given that in it, time will fight to correct itself).
Hmm, looking at the above and thinking about the rules in chronomancer... during the spellplague we're looking at the intersection of two planes. In chronomancer each plane had its own timeline... so it would be interesting that someone following the timeline from 5E to 3E/2E might actually find themselves at the right time but in the wrong world. Not looking to bring up any arguments about a reset, etc... just found the idea of this particular aspect of time travel fascinating.
Agreed. I can't tell you how many times I've tweaked backstory throughout the past few decades for the Malnagrane and Thelanthra family. I'm sure Ed's version of Elminster may even differ significantly than current published works on the Sage of Shadowdale. I typically made backstory tweaks for my characters for a few reasons.
1) I considered their original stories to be subpar, or not quite where I wanted them. And frankly, the stories needed to be more interesting or better written. Some of my earlier writing was not the best, especially when I look back to 1997 when I started posting them on the internet. My character backgrounds are slowly getting better over time. At least I like telling myself this...:)
2) Newer editions of the D&D game influenced me creatively, and I wanted to incorporate them. A lot of Bruce Cordell's work was a huge influence on some of my character back stories. I'm especially fond of his work on the Far Realm
3) I'm with Sleyvas here where the only impact 4th edition had for me was that I quit playing entirely. I've recently started playing again in 5th edition, and I'm looking forward to new Realms lore as it starts trickling in for the new edition
4) Interacting with other gamers, such as Sleyvas, and other players in my immediate campaign has tremendously helped shape my characters' stories and destinies. That level of creative collaboration is priceless to me, and I'm eternally grateful that I've had the pleasure of sharing this creative experience with Sleyvas for over 18 years (off and on).
- Alefian
Alefian,
Son, good to see ye here lad. I think you'll find a lot of folks here with the same fire for the realms that we've held over time. |
| Alefian |
Posted - 28 Sep 2015 : 19:35:04
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I have no doubts that Elminster's history has grown just at the campaign world has. I'm betting his original history had nothing to do with him being a prince, etc... It'd be just like if someone had asked me if Sleyvas had always been written up with a history of having been on the earth around the civil war (in the Mask of the Red Death world). I'd honestly have to say that no he wasn't, it came out of interacting with another gamer who had an NPC he created named Alefian, and mutually we had agreed that his character was the long lost son (as in my character knew nothing of him) of my character. I can say though that Sleyvas did originally start out in Raveloft as an NPC red wizard, and he did have pistols from the start (based on the FR rules for firearms of that time.... it was only after he returned to Toril from the MotRD campaign that he actually had six shooters). Did I always have him as an anti-hero because his wife was killed by a paladin? yes. Did I always have his wife named and have a history that he'd confessed before an altar of Shar the sin that when she was murdered he was off with another woman? No. Stuff happens as character's build.
The one thing I'll say is that I'll never run a campaign strictly about what was in the OGB... it was too vague. Now, I COULD base a campaign strictly off what was done in 2nd edition. I could base a campaign off the changes in 3rd edition. I wouldn't want to base one off what was done in 4th edition, BUT I could pass up that time and base one on a new realms... if the story elements and realmslore are there. I could even run a "time" campaign with players traversing between the 2e, 3e, and possibly 5e timelines (using the general time rules as presented in 2e chronomancer product, given that in it, time will fight to correct itself).
Hmm, looking at the above and thinking about the rules in chronomancer... during the spellplague we're looking at the intersection of two planes. In chronomancer each plane had its own timeline... so it would be interesting that someone following the timeline from 5E to 3E/2E might actually find themselves at the right time but in the wrong world. Not looking to bring up any arguments about a reset, etc... just found the idea of this particular aspect of time travel fascinating.
Agreed. I can't tell you how many times I've tweaked backstory throughout the past few decades for the Malnagrane and Thelanthra family. I'm sure Ed's version of Elminster may even differ significantly than current published works on the Sage of Shadowdale. I typically made backstory tweaks for my characters for a few reasons.
1) I considered their original stories to be subpar, or not quite where I wanted them. And frankly, the stories needed to be more interesting or better written. Some of my earlier writing was not the best, especially when I look back to 1997 when I started posting them on the internet. My character backgrounds are slowly getting better over time. At least I like telling myself this...:)
2) Newer editions of the D&D game influenced me creatively, and I wanted to incorporate them. A lot of Bruce Cordell's work was a huge influence on some of my character back stories. I'm especially fond of his work on the Far Realm
3) I'm with Sleyvas here where the only impact 4th edition had for me was that I quit playing entirely. I've recently started playing again in 5th edition, and I'm looking forward to new Realms lore as it starts trickling in for the new edition
4) Interacting with other gamers, such as Sleyvas, and other players in my immediate campaign has tremendously helped shape my characters' stories and destinies. That level of creative collaboration is priceless to me, and I'm eternally grateful that I've had the pleasure of sharing this creative experience with Sleyvas for over 18 years (off and on).
- Alefian |
| Eldacar |
Posted - 26 Sep 2012 : 05:23:10
It was actually somebody on here that mentioned it to me. It's from War in Tethyr, and I've typed out the small section below.
***
Shield of Innocence took the bloodstained amulet from about his neck and laid it on Stillhawk's unmoving breast. "O Torm," he prayed, "O True and Brave, please listen! Your dog begs you, do not let this soul slip out of the world. No one is truer and braver than he, and we have-" He coughed up blood. "We have not enough hands to fight the evil that waits below. I know... I have not served you long enough to earn the power to bring him back. And I won't ever, for this day I die, Lord. But please... please give him back his life, for his sake, for those poor brave women down there, for this whole world." Tears streamed down his cheeks. "Good Torm, I beg you!"
A shimmer in the stinking air before him. A tiny point of radiance, intolerably bright, expanding to a miniature sun. The brilliance dazzled his light-sensitive eyes, threatened to burn them out, yet it filled his soul with warmth and peace such as he had never known.
Shield of Innocence, a voice said in his mind, who well have justified your name. You alone of mortals on this world have I addressed through all the ages, and you alone shall I so address. Torm hears you, and through Him, I hear. My name has been taken in vain. You have chosen to redress this evil, knowing what the cost would be. So be it: your wish is granted.
The light flared, expanded, enveloped Shield so that it seemed he would be consumed by it, as by the heart of a sun. Then it went out. The ranger opened his eyes.
"O Torm!" the orog wept. "O Ao All-Father, I thank you!"
***
So yeah. Ao stepped in to answer a prayer and speak to a mortal. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 25 Sep 2012 : 21:19:08
I'm curious about that as well. |
| Veritas |
Posted - 25 Sep 2012 : 21:13:59
As a small side note, other than Ao's appearances in Cloak of Shadows and the Avatar quintet, where has Ao responded to a prayer "from somebody that one time."? Source? |
| The Red Walker |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 02:25:44
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I think that entry means that he is 'of all gods'. Elminster is the only mortal to be called upon by and have conversations with Ao (and since it is widely believed Ao is only supposed to interact with deities, thats telling you something).
Technically, Ao did answer a prayer from somebody that one time, but it was noted as a one-off deal, and I don't know that it would count as a conversation.
Just a minor quibble.
Wasn't there a small group of mortals somewhere that worshiped AO?
Some of them were wizards and priests, but none of them were granted spells by Ao [or thought they were, as far as we know]. The most detailed source on the Cult of Ao is Steven Schend's article in POLYHEDRON #94.
The "false priests" of Ao [featured in the War of Tethyr novel], were actually Cyricists operating in disguise.
Must have been From War In Tehtyr novel....although I cant quite place it in my mind......I haven't read that one since it came out! |
| The Hooded One |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 02:19:43
Very well put, Blueblade. I couldn't have said it any better.
All dead-on correct.
love,
THO |
| Blueblade |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 02:16:51
Re. this, from scribe Mateops:
"I think Elmi is the avatar of Ed Greenwood, sort of a super self . . . That Elmi would be at that stage, to think none are really gods, would not surprise me, Elmi was always above everything, the little pet or personal caracther of the creator of FR."
This canard? Again? Do no new scribes read the FAQ? Or the Code of Conduct? Or the various replies Ed has patiently given to questions about Elminster being his "pet" character?
Sigh.
Mateops, Ed Greenwood created the Realms. Meaning: about four thousand named characters, including some used by other authors, like Elaith. He slipped himself into the Realms, yes, as a character we've never seen or heard of in the published canon, and it's NOT Elminster. Who is not Ed's favorite, but a character TSR and later WotC have demanded he write book after book about (because they sell).
And to state that "Elmi was always above everything" indicates a lack of reading the fiction centered on Elminster. Nor, according to what Ed has said decades ago, has Elminster ever thought "none are really gods," but rather, El understands godhood (its price, its properties, its perils) more than almost any other mortal (the Srinshee possibly excepted). If you read the Elminster books, a constant background theme is how long life and caring about people and places leads to madness for those who serve the gods, such as Elminster.
Hate him if you want to, but I think you're hating something that isn't Elminster at all, but something else you think Elminster is.
BB
|
| The Sage |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 01:29:08
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I think that entry means that he is 'of all gods'. Elminster is the only mortal to be called upon by and have conversations with Ao (and since it is widely believed Ao is only supposed to interact with deities, thats telling you something).
Technically, Ao did answer a prayer from somebody that one time, but it was noted as a one-off deal, and I don't know that it would count as a conversation.
Just a minor quibble.
Wasn't there a small group of mortals somewhere that worshiped AO?
Some of them were wizards and priests, but none of them were granted spells by Ao [or thought they were, as far as we know]. The most detailed source on the Cult of Ao is Steven Schend's article in POLYHEDRON #94.
The "false priests" of Ao [featured in the War of Tethyr novel], were actually Cyricists operating in disguise. |
| Mr Dark |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 22:05:48
quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic
I think the OGB was the best presentation/published version of the setting, but of course that's just my opinion.
Just wanted to say that I agree. |
| Mateops |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 20:36:05
I think Elmi is the avatar of Ed Greenwood, sort of a super self.
In my campaign we got rid of Elmi all the way back in the second edition days. He just annoyed all of us.
Now if you could be an atheist in FR, I believe so! Actually when christianity started out, they did not tell people the gods did not exists, but simply that they were deamons, they gave you spells or whatnot, but at the expense of your soul. Someone could disbelieve that the divine pantheon is actually what we call a god.
That Elmi would be at that stage, to think none are really gods, would not surprise me, Elmi was always above everything, the little pet or personal caracther of the creator of FR.
|
| The Red Walker |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 13:42:54
quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
Its would be kind of funny if Elminster was actually an atheist, considering all the Gods he was dealt with and the semi divine powers he wields.
Especially funny to him all those times he was bedded by Mystra.
That is a situation one doesn't need to muck up with unnecessary philosophical arguments. 
El: OH God!!
Mystra: What now? I'm right here, just say it
El: I meant....I was just...never mind!
El most likely has the greatest understanding of "the gods" as any mortal has ever had, so I imagine that while he venerates Mystra above all else, he had the unique capacity to respect and "listen to" others gods without affecting him and Mystras relationship |
| The Red Walker |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 13:38:58
quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I think that entry means that he is 'of all gods'. Elminster is the only mortal to be called upon by and have conversations with Ao (and since it is widely believed Ao is only supposed to interact with deities, thats telling you something).
Technically, Ao did answer a prayer from somebody that one time, but it was noted as a one-off deal, and I don't know that it would count as a conversation.
Just a minor quibble.
Wasn't there a small group of mortals somewhere that worshiped AO? |
| Thauranil |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 09:45:26
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
Its would be kind of funny if Elminster was actually an atheist, considering all the Gods he was dealt with and the semi divine powers he wields.
Especially funny to him all those times he was bedded by Mystra.
That is a situation one doesn't need to muck up with unnecessary philosophical arguments. |
| Eldacar |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 06:47:22
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I think that entry means that he is 'of all gods'. Elminster is the only mortal to be called upon by and have conversations with Ao (and since it is widely believed Ao is only supposed to interact with deities, thats telling you something).
Technically, Ao did answer a prayer from somebody that one time, but it was noted as a one-off deal, and I don't know that it would count as a conversation.
Just a minor quibble. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 05:20:28
I don't think Mystra would allow Elminster to be Chosen or servants of other gods. As quasi-Chosen of her allies, maybe. But as servants of her enemies, like Shar and Cyric? Unlikely. Most of El's powers come from Mystra... He became practically insane upon her death, remember?! |
| WalkerNinja |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 00:30:26
I always took that entry to mean that the relationship that El has with Mystra is not equivalent to the relationship that your PC has with their patron. Our PCs (stereotypically) follow what their patron says in exchange for stuff. That's not what El's relationship is with Mystra. |
| The Red Walker |
Posted - 04 Sep 2012 : 20:23:00
quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
Yeah....I read(i think in Ed's scroll) Elminster was intentionaly left vague...a ort of blank slate, the ultimate tool of flexibilty for the dm/gm. All the later novels and "filling in the blanks" with El came from the company wanting more "Elminster stuff", naovel after novel requested, when Ed's intent was to write about other things and leave him "mysterious".......I wonder what subjects we have been deprived of by getting all those Elminster novels(that obvoiously sell or they wouldnt keep asking for more)
I suspect we'd have gotten a lot more of Mirt the Moneylender.
That would have been fine with me. Mirt is cool!
I think that Greenwood has also stated that he'd have like to released more stuff and commerce in the Realms; trade routes, smugglers, guilds, merchant houses, etc.
Sounds good to me.
Maybe a Forgotten Realms Trader sourcebook along the lines of Dark Sun's Dune Trader? Could be sweet. It's probably too niche to be a big commercial success, though.
Or maybe not...
?
More Mirt and Asper, Lords of Waterdeep......delving deeper into Waterdeep itself, more Knights of Myth Drannor, More of the dales beside Shadowdale....all those years ago when the Elminster novels started, would have been welcome to me...ummm....years ago |
| combatmedic |
Posted - 04 Sep 2012 : 18:51:18
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
Yeah....I read(i think in Ed's scroll) Elminster was intentionaly left vague...a ort of blank slate, the ultimate tool of flexibilty for the dm/gm. All the later novels and "filling in the blanks" with El came from the company wanting more "Elminster stuff", naovel after novel requested, when Ed's intent was to write about other things and leave him "mysterious".......I wonder what subjects we have been deprived of by getting all those Elminster novels(that obvoiously sell or they wouldnt keep asking for more)
I suspect we'd have gotten a lot more of Mirt the Moneylender.
That would have been fine with me. Mirt is cool!
I think that Greenwood has also stated that he'd have like to released more stuff and commerce in the Realms; trade routes, smugglers, guilds, merchant houses, etc.
Sounds good to me.
Maybe a Forgotten Realms Trader sourcebook along the lines of Dark Sun's Dune Trader? Could be sweet. It's probably too niche to be a big commercial success, though.
Or maybe not...
? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 04 Sep 2012 : 18:45:38
'Atheist' is impossible in the Realms (unless one were mentally insane). The gods aren't just believed in - they physically manifest. Elminster may have been an Agnostic, however.
Not the RW interpretation though: Elminster understands the 'true nature' of deities, so he does not 'fawn' all over them, as some do. He has even known (and trained!) several of them while they were mortal. Its hard to worship someone who you knew when they were 'just a youngling'.
I think El just respects all deities for what they are - uber-powerful immortals. He doesn't see them as 'gods', so in that light, perhaps he is atheist. The only 'real god' in his mind would be Ao. He has met (and fought) mortals with far more power then 'demigods' - you become a bit jaded after that. |
| The Red Walker |
Posted - 04 Sep 2012 : 18:17:48
quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
Its would be kind of funny if Elminster was actually an atheist, considering all the Gods he was dealt with and the semi divine powers he wields.
Especially funny to him all those times he was bedded by Mystra. |
| The Red Walker |
Posted - 04 Sep 2012 : 18:16:59
quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Wizard
quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
The "later" stuff came mostly from Ed .......working forward from the OGB.
Right, that it.
I'm well aware that Ed Greenwood has written oodles of Elminster stuff in the years since the OGB was published in 1987. The NPC has gained levels, classes, and special powers. Extended background has been invented or revealed.
But now that you mention it, no, I don't think the OGB was really a major source for Greenwood's development of this NPC. Dragon 110 came out before the OGB and presents a much more detailed version of the character written by Ed Greenwood-presumably fairly close to what Greenwood used for his home game.)[/i]
What was your point, though? I'm not sure what you were trying to communicate.
Were you just trying to tell me that stuff was published about Elminster after the OGB? I already knew that, but thanks anyway.
I think what Walker meant was if you sought an answer on further development of Elminster after the OGB, one answer is already presented in the later material (or earlier material as you mentioned in Dragon #110).
What you really mean is taking only the text in the OGB, and pretty much only the OGB, as a sort of setting gospel, then how would we extrapolate a further development of Elminster.
In this case the answer is, based on the vagueness of the entry, El could be anything you want him to be. There simply isn't enough information to create firm characteristics from. Anything you or we propose is just as good as any other choice. You've already run through all the possibilities, atheist, pantheist, demi-god, etc. Any and all of those could apply, there really isn't much discussion here unless you decide to write-up your version of it and put it up for discussion.
Right, that's it.
Maybe I will write it up later, then.
I've been considering an alternative OBG based FR for a while.
Yeah....I read(i think in Ed's scroll) Elminster was intentionaly left vague...a ort of blank slate, the ultimate tool of flexibilty for the dm/gm. All the later novels and "filling in the blanks" with El came from the company wanting more "Elminster stuff", naovel after novel requested, when Ed's intent was to write about other things and leave him "mysterious".......I wonder what subjects we have been deprived of by getting all those Elminster novels(that obvoiously sell or they wouldnt keep asking for more) |
| combatmedic |
Posted - 04 Sep 2012 : 17:53:34
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I have no doubts that Elminster's history has grown just at the campaign world has. I'm betting his original history had nothing to do with him being a prince, etc... It'd be just like if someone had asked me if Sleyvas had always been written up with a history of having been on the earth around the civil war (in the Mask of the Red Death world). I'd honestly have to say that no he wasn't, it came out of interacting with another gamer who had an NPC he created named Alefian, and mutually we had agreed that his character was the long lost son (as in my character knew nothing of him) of my character. I can say though that Sleyvas did originally start out in Raveloft as an NPC red wizard, and he did have pistols from the start (based on the FR rules for firearms of that time.... it was only after he returned to Toril from the MotRD campaign that he actually had six shooters). Did I always have him as an anti-hero because his wife was killed by a paladin? yes. Did I always have his wife named and have a history that he'd confessed before an altar of Shar the sin that when she was murdered he was off with another woman? No. Stuff happens as character's build.
The one thing I'll say is that I'll never run a campaign strictly about what was in the OGB... it was too vague. Now, I COULD base a campaign strictly off what was done in 2nd edition. I could base a campaign off the changes in 3rd edition. I wouldn't want to base one off what was done in 4th edition, BUT I could pass up that time and base one on a new realms... if the story elements and realmslore are there. I could even run a "time" campaign with players traversing between the 2e, 3e, and possibly 5e timelines (using the general time rules as presented in 2e chronomancer product, given that in it, time will fight to correct itself).
Hmm, looking at the above and thinking about the rules in chronomancer... during the spellplague we're looking at the intersection of two planes. In chronomancer each plane had its own timeline... so it would be interesting that someone following the timeline from 5E to 3E/2E might actually find themselves at the right time but in the wrong world. Not looking to bring up any arguments about a reset, etc... just found the idea of this particular aspect of time travel fascinating.
Sounds nifty.
I think the OGB was the best presentation/published version of the setting, but of course that's just my opinion.
Chronomancer! If any setting is ripe for a little time travel action, it's FR.
|
| Mr Dark |
Posted - 04 Sep 2012 : 17:50:38
Going by just the OGB, I would have Elminster as more of an unreliable narrator than an objective one. Interestingly enough, I have considered basing the next phase of my campaign out of the Greybox and first few supplements and leave everything else out. |
| combatmedic |
Posted - 04 Sep 2012 : 17:48:36
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Wizard
quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
The "later" stuff came mostly from Ed .......working forward from the OGB.
Right, that it.
I'm well aware that Ed Greenwood has written oodles of Elminster stuff in the years since the OGB was published in 1987. The NPC has gained levels, classes, and special powers. Extended background has been invented or revealed.
But now that you mention it, no, I don't think the OGB was really a major source for Greenwood's development of this NPC. Dragon 110 came out before the OGB and presents a much more detailed version of the character written by Ed Greenwood-presumably fairly close to what Greenwood used for his home game.)[/i]
What was your point, though? I'm not sure what you were trying to communicate.
Were you just trying to tell me that stuff was published about Elminster after the OGB? I already knew that, but thanks anyway.
I think what Walker meant was if you sought an answer on further development of Elminster after the OGB, one answer is already presented in the later material (or earlier material as you mentioned in Dragon #110).
What you really mean is taking only the text in the OGB, and pretty much only the OGB, as a sort of setting gospel, then how would we extrapolate a further development of Elminster.
In this case the answer is, based on the vagueness of the entry, El could be anything you want him to be. There simply isn't enough information to create firm characteristics from. Anything you or we propose is just as good as any other choice. You've already run through all the possibilities, atheist, pantheist, demi-god, etc. Any and all of those could apply, there really isn't much discussion here unless you decide to write-up your version of it and put it up for discussion.
Right, that's it.
Maybe I will write it up later, then.
I've been considering an alternative OBG based FR for a while.
|
| Dark Wizard |
Posted - 04 Sep 2012 : 16:53:10
quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
The "later" stuff came mostly from Ed .......working forward from the OGB.
I'm well aware that Ed Greenwood has written oodles of Elminster stuff in the years since the OGB was published in 1987. The NPC has gained levels, classes, and special powers. Extended background has been invented or revealed.
But now that you mention it, no, I don't think the OGB was really a major source for Greenwood's development of this NPC. Dragon 110 came out before the OGB and presents a much more detailed version of the character written by Ed Greenwood-presumably fairly close to what Greenwood used for his home game.)[/i]
What was your point, though? I'm not sure what you were trying to communicate.
Were you just trying to tell me that stuff was published about Elminster after the OGB? I already knew that, but thanks anyway.
I think what Walker meant was if you sought an answer on further development of Elminster after the OGB, one answer is already presented in the later material (or earlier material as you mentioned in Dragon #110).
What you really mean is taking only the text in the OGB, and pretty much only the OGB, as a sort of setting gospel, then how would we extrapolate a further development of Elminster.
In this case the answer is, based on the vagueness of the entry, El could be anything you want him to be. There simply isn't enough information to create firm characteristics from. Anything you or we propose is just as good as any other choice. You've already run through all the possibilities, atheist, pantheist, demi-god, etc. Any and all of those could apply, there really isn't much discussion here unless you decide to write-up your version of it and put it up for discussion. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 04 Sep 2012 : 14:59:53
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
The one thing I'll say is that I'll never run a campaign strictly about what was in the OGB... it was too vague. Now, I COULD base a campaign strictly off what was done in 2nd edition. I could base a campaign off the changes in 3rd edition. I wouldn't want to base one off what was done in 4th edition, BUT I could pass up that time and base one on a new realms... if the story elements and realmslore are there. I could even run a "time" campaign with players traversing between the 2e, 3e, and possibly 5e timelines (using the general time rules as presented in 2e chronomancer product, given that in it, time will fight to correct itself).
Hmm, looking at the above and thinking about the rules in chronomancer... during the spellplague we're looking at the intersection of two planes. In chronomancer each plane had its own timeline... so it would be interesting that someone following the timeline from 5E to 3E/2E might actually find themselves at the right time but in the wrong world. Not looking to bring up any arguments about a reset, etc... just found the idea of this particular aspect of time travel fascinating.
Hmmm, walked away and thought of an even better idea to add in. Perhaps there are even dropoffs in traversing time from 5e to 3e and earlier because of this intersection of planes... and these dropoffs are into the far realm. Maybe this is also why there is more of an aberration influence in 4th edition. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 04 Sep 2012 : 14:54:02
I have no doubts that Elminster's history has grown just at the campaign world has. I'm betting his original history had nothing to do with him being a prince, etc... It'd be just like if someone had asked me if Sleyvas had always been written up with a history of having been on the earth around the civil war (in the Mask of the Red Death world). I'd honestly have to say that no he wasn't, it came out of interacting with another gamer who had an NPC he created named Alefian, and mutually we had agreed that his character was the long lost son (as in my character knew nothing of him) of my character. I can say though that Sleyvas did originally start out in Raveloft as an NPC red wizard, and he did have pistols from the start (based on the FR rules for firearms of that time.... it was only after he returned to Toril from the MotRD campaign that he actually had six shooters). Did I always have him as an anti-hero because his wife was killed by a paladin? yes. Did I always have his wife named and have a history that he'd confessed before an altar of Shar the sin that when she was murdered he was off with another woman? No. Stuff happens as character's build.
The one thing I'll say is that I'll never run a campaign strictly about what was in the OGB... it was too vague. Now, I COULD base a campaign strictly off what was done in 2nd edition. I could base a campaign off the changes in 3rd edition. I wouldn't want to base one off what was done in 4th edition, BUT I could pass up that time and base one on a new realms... if the story elements and realmslore are there. I could even run a "time" campaign with players traversing between the 2e, 3e, and possibly 5e timelines (using the general time rules as presented in 2e chronomancer product, given that in it, time will fight to correct itself).
Hmm, looking at the above and thinking about the rules in chronomancer... during the spellplague we're looking at the intersection of two planes. In chronomancer each plane had its own timeline... so it would be interesting that someone following the timeline from 5E to 3E/2E might actually find themselves at the right time but in the wrong world. Not looking to bring up any arguments about a reset, etc... just found the idea of this particular aspect of time travel fascinating. |
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