| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Dennis |
Posted - 01 Aug 2012 : 18:17:24
I was fascinated by Eberron's Lightning Rail. I thought it's ingenious.
"The House Orien operated Lightning Rail is an international, magical train line connecting many of the major cities throughout Khorvaire. In many ways, the Lightning Rail resembles and functions like trains of the Old West, but instead of following along rails, the Lightning Rail follows a path of conductor stones. The conductor stones, magical creations of House Cannith, are placed along the ground forming a conduit of magical energy to allow the Lightning Rail to travel at high speeds across Khorvaire. The Lightning Rail itself is pushed along by an elemental bound to the Lightning Rail's coaches. The Lightning Rail is given its name because of the crackling energy created when an elemental-bound coach passes over a conductor stone."[Lightning Rail, Eberron Wiki]
Why don't we see this in the Realms? Faerun's mages are as brilliant and powerful as Khorvaire's, or probably more. Isn't this invention supposed to be easy for them?
There are the skyships of Netheril and Halruaa. What other amazing public transports do Faerunians have? It looks like they're mostly content with carriages. Why not magical metal-made constructs like dragons or giant hawks (some kind of prototypes of modern airplanes)? Or a rail like that of Ba Sing Se? Though instead of being pushed by Earthbenders, it's powered by earth elementals controlled by one to ten wizards, depending on the size of the train and the ability of the elementalists. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Dennis |
Posted - 06 Aug 2012 : 06:36:40
MT,
Lumber? Nah, that requires constant repair. Magic-enhanced metal is better. It lasts longer and requires less maintenance. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 06 Aug 2012 : 06:24:34
Best rules I've ever found for magical ship/construct construction was in the "Dawn of the Emperors" boxed set which features the Empires of Alphatia and Thyatis.
TSR1037 (1989): ISBN- 0-88038-736-X |
| Markustay |
Posted - 06 Aug 2012 : 06:11:07
Why magic? Steam itself rises, as does hot air.
Why not some bizarre railway based on hot-air balloons? You would just need them to float a few feet off the ground, and then off you go (the entire thing can be towed by some jackal-headed golem - something like those statues in Night at the Museum). So you got a big rock guy towing a bunch of strung-together balloons with baskets beneath them.
Sounds like something they need at Disneyland. 
I'm thinking two golems, running side-by-side. Stopping might be a bitch.
I still think stone 'sphinx-buses' (or trolleys) would be more in-line with the flavor of the place. |
| Mapolq |
Posted - 06 Aug 2012 : 02:23:28
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
You mention something there which gets to a core issue in my eyes. I'm going to throw out some ideas here and see what happens. Basically, the main reason for the tracks is that the earth isn't exceptionally level, and thus the tracks create a path that won't jerk everything all to hell. However, we've stated that if we could levitate the cars we wouldn't need tracks... and that seems like an initially more expensive, but immensely quicker to install solution for the short term. Things then come down to motive force, and we're wanting to play with the idea of a steam engine in Mulhorand. So, we know they have some kind of object known as "stones of everbrurning" and we know they can make decanters of endless water. A copper boiler actually would probably be preferred to an iron one. So, the general idea is that we create something that takes this steam, puts it to spinning some cog that turns something else, that then eventually makes some piece go round and round (or back and forth). So, what if we have this levitating train engine, with some levitating barges following it, and its actually pushed forward through the motions of a sail, or moving wings, or hell some sort of steam-rocket. I might be trying a bit too hard now, but after someone reminded me of Mulhorand actually studying steam engine technology, it just screams them making some kind of steam tech.... though they may not have the technical skills for developing the fine mechanical pieces also required.
That makes a lot of sense. What you're suggesting is a steam dirigible, the main difference is the lift would be provided by magic instead of a light gas. They could fit in airscrew propellers for thrust and sail-like rudders for steering. That would make trains up to a certain mass obsolete (I say up to a certain mass because as the mass increases so would the size of the rudder - that could render really big projects like modern-day freight trains impractical). The only other limit would be, of course, the difficulty involved in providing the magical lift. I think we can assume the requirements to be around 15 caster levels and 400,000 gold pieces for a ship-sized load. Those are the requirements for a Halruaan skyship, which is basically the same thing, except for the propulsion method. So whether Mulhorand would rather build railways or airships would depend mainly on the cost and relative speed of the locomotive (and the availability of know-how). Personally I'd fudge things so as to make both designs competitive. Why have only one cool development when you can have two? |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 06 Aug 2012 : 00:33:04
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Murghôm is technically a subject-state of Mulhorand, and it has the vast Shalhoond (the Great Wild Wood) to get lumber.
And as of the end of 2e, the Rauthenflow is navigable by ship from beginning to end (the rapids and falls were magically removed and cleared to allow sea-traffic between the two bodies of water).
So Lumber definitely isn't an issue. Also, just to differentiate it from a RW railroad, I would have the metal be something else. Why not Brass? It can be magically hardened. Now, if the wood of the Shalhoond (or Ganatwood or even the Aerilpar Forest to the south) were rich crimson (or even purplish) in color, how much cooler would the tracks look?
You gonna build a fantasy RR, you should go all the way. You could also just go for a single track just for guidance, and leave the wheels to touch the road in a normal way. That way, the roads can be duel-purposed.
What if part of the system was to have special 'lode stones' that were magicked to have resonance to different destinations? You plug-in a lodestone to the front of the thing, and it starts moving toward its polarized station, picking up speed as it goes. Without the stones, the thing doesn't move (the magic is dormant, and could be anything). The tracks merely provide it with a safe pathway (otherwise folks would be in for one helluva bumpy, cross-country ride). Then non-lodestone wagons could still use the same roads (getting on and off them might be a nuisance, although that could be another way a government could regulate - and tax - caravans and other road-users).
You mention something there which gets to a core issue in my eyes. I'm going to throw out some ideas here and see what happens. Basically, the main reason for the tracks is that the earth isn't exceptionally level, and thus the tracks create a path that won't jerk everything all to hell. However, we've stated that if we could levitate the cars we wouldn't need tracks... and that seems like an initially more expensive, but immensely quicker to install solution for the short term. Things then come down to motive force, and we're wanting to play with the idea of a steam engine in Mulhorand. So, we know they have some kind of object known as "stones of everbrurning" and we know they can make decanters of endless water. A copper boiler actually would probably be preferred to an iron one. So, the general idea is that we create something that takes this steam, puts it to spinning some cog that turns something else, that then eventually makes some piece go round and round (or back and forth). So, what if we have this levitating train engine, with some levitating barges following it, and its actually pushed forward through the motions of a sail, or moving wings, or hell some sort of steam-rocket. I might be trying a bit too hard now, but after someone reminded me of Mulhorand actually studying steam engine technology, it just screams them making some kind of steam tech.... though they may not have the technical skills for developing the fine mechanical pieces also required. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 05 Aug 2012 : 19:59:56
Murghôm is technically a subject-state of Mulhorand, and it has the vast Shalhoond (the Great Wild Wood) to get lumber.
And as of the end of 2e, the Rauthenflow is navigable by ship from beginning to end (the rapids and falls were magically removed and cleared to allow sea-traffic between the two bodies of water).
So Lumber definitely isn't an issue. Also, just to differentiate it from a RW railroad, I would have the metal be something else. Why not Brass? It can be magically hardened. Now, if the wood of the Shalhoond (or Ganatwood or even the Aerilpar Forest to the south) were rich crimson (or even purplish) in color, how much cooler would the tracks look?
You gonna build a fantasy RR, you should go all the way. You could also just go for a single track just for guidance, and leave the wheels to touch the road in a normal way. That way, the roads can be duel-purposed.
What if part of the system was to have special 'lode stones' that were magicked to have resonance to different destinations? You plug-in a lodestone to the front of the thing, and it starts moving toward its polarized station, picking up speed as it goes. Without the stones, the thing doesn't move (the magic is dormant, and could be anything). The tracks merely provide it with a safe pathway (otherwise folks would be in for one helluva bumpy, cross-country ride). Then non-lodestone wagons could still use the same roads (getting on and off them might be a nuisance, although that could be another way a government could regulate - and tax - caravans and other road-users). |
| Mapolq |
Posted - 05 Aug 2012 : 17:28:53
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
"Mulhorand imports iron, fine timber, silver, incense, spice, and perfume.These scarce commodities are provided by traders from the south. "
I don't see them having enough iron to lay the tracks, and they may run into problems with the timber needs too. Given that war would probably repurpose most of their iron to weapon needs, I couldn't see a train being built for the war effort, unless the train were built from another medium besides iron. I don't know how well a brass/copper steam engine and brass/copper rails would work.... might work great... might be impossible... I'd have to defer on that to someone with more knowledge of metallurgy than me. Also, since the followers of Thoth aren't necessarily behind the war effort, the only way I could see them building such a train would be to try and get the Pharaoh to lift the edict against studying such technologies.
It's true that a railway probably wouldn't be feasible without iron, and Mulhorand has no significant mines. Mulhorandi-controlled Unther does, though. There are deposits in the Smoking Mountains and near the Methwood which the Mulhorandi could exploit. And Mulhorand actually has plenty of timber from the Ganathwood, they only import the more fancy woods, so that wouldn't be a problem. Crossing the River of Swords, the River Angol and the River Alamber might be an issue depending on the width of the rivers. They already have a ferry crossing the River of Swords, so it seems like the Mulhorandi would have to invent the train ferry as well. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 05 Aug 2012 : 16:16:27
I 'think' the Shadowfel (and feywild, etc) are 'smaller' in comparison, at least that's the gist I get from everything I read (else why would so many characters 'take shortcuts' through Shadow and faerie?) My own thoughts on the matter are somewhat more complicated then that - the distances become skewed proportionate to the proximity of 'an anchor' (a plcae in the prime with large amounts of sentient beings). For instance, in the middle of a big city like Waterdeep, traveling through a transitional plane will only net you about 2x distance covered. Out in the countryside, 10x or more can be achieved. In the middle of the open ocean, it could be as high as 100x or greater.
However, that's my own take on how it works - am not sure how the official versions handle it. Everything I read seems to indicate travel through a transitional plane is quicker, ergo the distances must be shorter (but the ratio varies).
I agree that the Shades would probably NOT want a railway going to Shade, but it would make for an interesting campaign. They could have the Sembia end heavily guarded, and people have to 'show papers' to get on-board; then the PCs would have to forge some papers, or sneak on by some other means. It could make for some very unique adventuring.
Once on such a train, you'd hear an announcement very much like what you hear when you ride a rollercoaster - "keep your hands and feet inside the car at all times", etc. Then, as the train is moving along, you can describe how an NPC drops something and tries to grab it as it falls off the side... and screams and pulls back his arm, minus his hand. That should get the point across. 'Shadow bandits' would be the least of your worries traveling through the Shadowfel.
That would probably be the most hostile (or one of the most hostile - the Hells would be worse) terrain you could run a railway through. If you think it won't work in 'regular' FR, then it sure as hell wouldn't last for very long passing through another plane.
Personally, I think 'The ways' (from the WoT series) is the best fit for FR. Its not a train, but it is a pre-built 'pathway' that works similar to how a railroad works; you stay on the 'track', or you die (or get lost, which amounts to the same thing).
Come to think of it, Monkey (KT god) brought some Shou folk over to Maztica using something similar - the path he had them take went through 'the realm of the dead', but he may have been speaking poetically. The Shadowfell could easily be interpreted as a 'land of the dead'.
And you could combine these thoughts together, and with something I mentioned earlier - discovering an ancient system of 'paths'. Suppose the Imaskari, Netherese, Sarrukh, etc had a system like this (actually FR does - its called The Road of Stars & Shadows), which was 'recently re-discovered'. Then someone could build a rail through it, to alleviate the threat of wandering off that path. |
| Brimstone |
Posted - 05 Aug 2012 : 10:26:32
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
One that passes through the Shadowfel. 
That would be one helluva ride (literally).
That's a pretty cool idea.
Is distance consistent in the Shadowfell? Analogous/1 for 1 to the Prime?
Then you can have "shadow bandits" robbing the trains! |
| Dennis |
Posted - 05 Aug 2012 : 08:40:23
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I'm really just not seeing the Netherese using trains - they were all about 'the sky' (even the Shades, oddly enough).
Shade is a small city. So trains are rather impractical. However, they might try to make one in Sembia, to help further trade, and by extension, boost Shade's economy. Deep Shadow Rail. Hmm...
How about a train from Sembia to Shade?
One that passes through the Shadowfel.
Interesting. Though unlikely. Telamont would no doubt think that too risky. Anyone can jump into the train and enter Shade. He guards his city like a dragon guards its hoard.
It'd be pretty useful in Sembia, though, specially if they intend to reestablish and repopulate Ordulin. |
| Jeremy Grenemyer |
Posted - 05 Aug 2012 : 08:29:02
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
One that passes through the Shadowfel.
That would be one helluva ride (literally).
That's a pretty cool idea.
Is distance consistent in the Shadowfell? Analogous/1 for 1 to the Prime? |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 05 Aug 2012 : 08:14:27
quote:
Originally posted by Mapolq
What about regular steam powered locomotives? Mulhorand is stated to have steam engine technology, developed and put in practice by the priesthood of Thoth. Why shouldn't a regular train be considered superior in some ways to traditional transportation by carts and mules? Obviously it's not possible to do all overland movement through portals, or Faerûn wouldn't need any roads or ships. The technological leap leading to the railroad needs only an event to spark the need for it. And we actually have one, right in the same region that supposedly leads the world in steam engine tech: The Mulhorand-Unther war.
A recent thread by Icelander gave me this idea. In 1372 DR, the Mulhorandi are stretched out trying to complete their invasion of Unther. It can be inferred from canon that the Mulhorandi navy is in a dismal state. Suppose they were impeded from safely crossing the Alamber Sea. Demand for troops, material, food, animals, fodder, etc. would rise dramatically. Enter the priesthood of Thoth with a new engine capable of taking tonnes of war material and thousands of men around the Alamber to Unthalass and Shussel in record time, without the need for pack animals. Consider the design might be subtly enhanced by magic. It's stated in the lore that stones that continually produce heat magically are used to produce steam, instead of using fuel. Another idea would be to create a condenser using cold magic to reuse the water (I believe a condenser would be even more useful on a large, stationary steam engine or a steamship, as it would increase efficiency à la Carnot cycle, but that would be impractical for a locomotive due to size restrictions).
They might still take several years or even decades to overcome the difficulties, but if the war extended itself for a long period of time (much like the Napoleonic Wars did in RL - they were still not enough to promote real large scale railways, but they did kickstart the technology) I think the development of railways would be realistically possible.
Edit: Wooly's idea of using levitation might also work on trains. Not on the locomotive, obviously, but on wagons. One would need some kind of system to stop the train from derailing, though. This would also be a problem with animal-driven carts. The animals would be able to haul huge loads to considerable speed, but the momentum of the cargo would probably push them into the ground and maybe drag them a bit whenever they tried to make a curve at high speed. This means you wouldn't be able to use normal roads with 90 degree turns. Braking would also be an issue. The animals would have to be very well-trained to stop gradually, I suppose, since stopping abruptly would mean being violently pushed forward by the carts. This would also point in the direction of exclusive access special roads to prevent accidents. Basically, the animal-driven levitating cart caravan would be little different from a train. Of course, if you limited the load to a single cart or wagon, the burden animals or the locomotive would probably be able to handle it, but there wouldn't be so much of a point in doing that. The main advantage of levitating the cargo would be precisely the dramatic increase in the weight that could be pulled theoretically, and not so much in the additional speed.
When I originally mentioned Mulhorand as a possibility, my thoughts were that the technology would be very old... basically left over magi-tech from the time of the Imaskari Artificers. In that case, they were known for using walking constructs, so I COULD see that as a possibility.
However, I get the feel the more I think of it that they would have had less repair issues over the years if they were using a rail system where the motive system wasn't in the "legs" of a magical construct and thereby the wheels were easier to duplicate and replace. Given that the development of the wheel and block and tackle was a major thing that was actually performed by the Mulhorandi Empire and that they had at one time studied "steam engine" technology using "stones of everburning" as mentioned in Old Empires. Also, as mentioned in Old Empires they were eventually ordered to cease study on steam technology by the Pharaoh... which, hmmm, might there have been a train explosion that killed someone that the Pharaoh cared for? If this base idea were the case though, I'd have it that the old trains are exceptionally slow but able to carry large heavy cargos (like huge stone blocks or cars full of grain to be pressed at a mill using a steam powered pressure engine). Maybe the new technologists though have learned to develop newer cars based upon the old steam engines with modern day knowledge of technology and magic (like decanters of endless water in conjunction with the stones of everburning), and they've re-applied this knowledge towards the trains like I mentioned for carrying slaves and guards to and from the fields more rapidly. Given that Thoths followers are the only ones really developing such, maybe its only their temples and slaves that benefit from this research.
I've also been thinking that the Mulhorandi "train" on tracks even if complex... could be rerouted by them if the tracks and wheels weren't magical. This might have aided them in the building of some great architectural majesties that they have (for instance their pyramids).
Now, as to them building a modern day rail to aid the war effort, I would refer to this from the Old Empires
"Mulhorand imports iron, fine timber, silver, incense, spice, and perfume.These scarce commodities are provided by traders from the south. "
I don't see them having enough iron to lay the tracks, and they may run into problems with the timber needs too. Given that war would probably repurpose most of their iron to weapon needs, I couldn't see a train being built for the war effort, unless the train were built from another medium besides iron. I don't know how well a brass/copper steam engine and brass/copper rails would work.... might work great... might be impossible... I'd have to defer on that to someone with more knowledge of metallurgy than me. Also, since the followers of Thoth aren't necessarily behind the war effort, the only way I could see them building such a train would be to try and get the Pharaoh to lift the edict against studying such technologies. |
| Mapolq |
Posted - 05 Aug 2012 : 07:27:42
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Its really hard for me to wrap my head around a Mulhorandi railroad. I'm trying to picture some old (Arabian) movies picturing one, but none jump to mind.
Nevermind - just came up with Lawrence of Arabia - I've seen the flick, and supposedly a chunk of the plot is wrapped around the railway, but for the life of me I just don't remember it. Come to think of it, there was one in The Mummy Returns (the Brendan Fraser version). So I guess mummys and trains could go together.
I think you got the picture of that desert railroad from Lawrence of Arabia out of my mind! Though the Alamber railway I proposed wouldn't be in a very desertic land. But think of a Mulhorand-Durpar link. There's no roads across the Eastern Shaar, and if they could pull that off, there would be many possibilities. The Durpari are the greatest traders of the Great Sea, so they'd have premium access to the Shining South and Zakhara. Even a sea route to Kara-Tur might very well be more profitable than the road that goes through Semphar and the Katakoro Mountains (Did they call it the Silk Road? I can't remember...). They'd have to cut through Veldorn though, so it wouldn't be easy. Probably an undertaking for decades or even a century later, if at all possible.
I think I'll be integrating those ideas to my Realms. I have a more low-fantasy and technological approach to the setting in general, and this will fit really well. The Mulhorand-Durpar railroad is going to be Mulhorand's answer to the Innarlan Canal, after they finish their conquest of Unther. Anyway, I think it would be a really cool twist to the region.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I'm really just not seeing the Netherese using trains - they were all about 'the sky' (even the Shades, oddly enough).
Agreed. Why use trains for commerce and transportation when your main cities are functionally enormous air freighters that run for free? I could see them using some kind of magically powered elevator on their enclaves though, to facilitate trade with the ground. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 05 Aug 2012 : 05:35:04
Its really hard for me to wrap my head around a Mulhorandi railroad. I'm trying to picture some old (Arabian) movies picturing one, but none jump to mind.
Nevermind - just came up with Lawrence of Arabia - I've seen the flick, and supposedly a chunk of the plot is wrapped around the railway, but for the life of me I just don't remember it. Come to think of it, there was one in The Mummy Returns (the Brendan Fraser version). So I guess mummys and trains could go together.quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I'm really just not seeing the Netherese using trains - they were all about 'the sky' (even the Shades, oddly enough).
Shade is a small city. So trains are rather impractical. However, they might try to make one in Sembia, to help further trade, and by extension, boost Shade's economy. Deep Shadow Rail. Hmm...
How about a train from Sembia to Shade?
One that passes through the Shadowfel.
That would be one helluva ride (literally). The Shadowtrain - I'm not quite sure if I hate it or like it.
On second thought, that sounds way too much like the Infinity Train (maybe they've added a shadow-plane line?)  |
| Mapolq |
Posted - 05 Aug 2012 : 02:55:35
What about regular steam powered locomotives? Mulhorand is stated to have steam engine technology, developed and put in practice by the priesthood of Thoth. Why shouldn't a regular train be considered superior in some ways to traditional transportation by carts and mules? Obviously it's not possible to do all overland movement through portals, or Faerûn wouldn't need any roads or ships. The technological leap leading to the railroad needs only an event to spark the need for it. And we actually have one, right in the same region that supposedly leads the world in steam engine tech: The Mulhorand-Unther war.
A recent thread by Icelander gave me this idea. In 1372 DR, the Mulhorandi are stretched out trying to complete their invasion of Unther. It can be inferred from canon that the Mulhorandi navy is in a dismal state. Suppose they were impeded from safely crossing the Alamber Sea. Demand for troops, material, food, animals, fodder, etc. would rise dramatically. Enter the priesthood of Thoth with a new engine capable of taking tonnes of war material and thousands of men around the Alamber to Unthalass and Shussel in record time, without the need for pack animals. Consider the design might be subtly enhanced by magic. It's stated in the lore that stones that continually produce heat magically are used to produce steam, instead of using fuel. Another idea would be to create a condenser using cold magic to reuse the water (I believe a condenser would be even more useful on a large, stationary steam engine or a steamship, as it would increase efficiency à la Carnot cycle, but that would be impractical for a locomotive due to size restrictions).
They might still take several years or even decades to overcome the difficulties, but if the war extended itself for a long period of time (much like the Napoleonic Wars did in RL - they were still not enough to promote real large scale railways, but they did kickstart the technology) I think the development of railways would be realistically possible.
Edit: Wooly's idea of using levitation might also work on trains. Not on the locomotive, obviously, but on wagons. One would need some kind of system to stop the train from derailing, though. This would also be a problem with animal-driven carts. The animals would be able to haul huge loads to considerable speed, but the momentum of the cargo would probably push them into the ground and maybe drag them a bit whenever they tried to make a curve at high speed. This means you wouldn't be able to use normal roads with 90 degree turns. Braking would also be an issue. The animals would have to be very well-trained to stop gradually, I suppose, since stopping abruptly would mean being violently pushed forward by the carts. This would also point in the direction of exclusive access special roads to prevent accidents. Basically, the animal-driven levitating cart caravan would be little different from a train. Of course, if you limited the load to a single cart or wagon, the burden animals or the locomotive would probably be able to handle it, but there wouldn't be so much of a point in doing that. The main advantage of levitating the cargo would be precisely the dramatic increase in the weight that could be pulled theoretically, and not so much in the additional speed. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 04 Aug 2012 : 23:20:15
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I'm really just not seeing the Netherese using trains - they were all about 'the sky' (even the Shades, oddly enough).
Shade is a small city. So trains are rather impractical. However, they might try to make one in Sembia, to help further trade, and by extension, boost Shade's economy. Deep Shadow Rail. Hmm... |
| Markustay |
Posted - 04 Aug 2012 : 20:59:38
I think point-to-point systems would be a bit more 'realistic' for FR, such as the one used in WoW between the cities of Ironforge and Stormwind (and for anyone who hasn't tried the game, do a free trial just to ride the tram - it goes through an underwater section with 'glass' - very, very cool).
THIS VIDEO shows you the whole 'subway' system, rather then just the train ride (plus some other cool footage). Unfortunately I looked at several, and none of them show you the underwater scenes to the sides (but this one at least tries to).
Anyhow, I could see something like that, running between Suzail and Arabel, or even from Daerlun to Suzail and then on to Arabel in the 4e era. However, I think just between the first two would keep it small enough to not over-power the regular realms-flavor. I only figured-in Daerlun post-4e because the military applications are obvious.
A point-to-point tram between Waterdeep and Suzail might also work, without 'breaking' too much. Once again, this is something I would foresee in FR's 'future' (post-4e).
On the other hand, you could 'discover' a long-lost subway system by an ancient, forgotten civilization (a'la Beneath the Planet of the Apes). Not sure who, what, or where you'd want to use that plot-device. It could be most anywhere. It would probably work best (within FR canon) under the Raurin, and maybe extended north into the Raumvari region from there, as something the Imaskari had or attempted. I'm really just not seeing the Netherese using trains - they were all about 'the sky' (even the Shades, oddly enough).
EDIT: and for a RW example of a 'primitive' Rail/subway system, have a gander AT THIS. There are plenty of spells that control wind/air.
And for something quite a bit more complicated, you could give Halruaa a maglev system (using shadow/arcane magic instead of magnetics as your polarized forces). |
| Portella |
Posted - 04 Aug 2012 : 17:37:37
With a bit of engineering you could put in something to control how wide the vessels would be open or a clever mage could craft a new type of vessel that expel at different ratios and speed. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 04 Aug 2012 : 15:35:09
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Thats actually better for intra-national transportation. I think railways are only cost-effective over very long distances (because they maintain a constant speed and can run for days at a time without stopping).
However, I still think a portal-network would be easier and simpler. The war Wizards can set something like that up fairly easily (and probably already have, except they don't share it... i don't know why they would).
That, or airships. Both fit FR's theme better, IMHO.
A portal network would work better, but that also presents a security risk: anything that can move your troops in one direction can move enemy troops in the other direction.
Airships are good, too, but the current airships of the Realms are too slow and cumbersome, I think. Even in Halruaa, they're more of a vanity item than anything else, though they could be used for cargo or as slow-moving weapons platforms.
I could see the development of ships more like the ones used in Eber-whatsit, though I'd not go for the dragonshards and elemental binding to make them work. Many levitate spells to make them neutrally bouyant, perhaps, and maybe highly focused gusts of wind to propel them. (Yeah, a bound air elemental would work better, but I'm trying to not lift something wholesale from another setting).
Maybe the propulsion could be these large, aerodynamic pods on outriggers (think jet engines at the wingtips of an aircraft, or the engines on Serenity). Inside the pods are vessels of endless air -- an air-based variation on 2E's decanter of endless water.
So the levitate spells hold the ship up, and these theoretical vessels propel it. Make those pods pivot a bit, and they can also control the altitude of the ship. |
| Quale |
Posted - 04 Aug 2012 : 15:14:31
You could have the perpetual train like in Mieville's Iron Council, a construct that builds the rails ahead its path and destroys those behind.
In the Realms I think paths similar to the feyroads and the Trail of Mists should be used more in caravan trade, portals should be reserved for the most powerful. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 04 Aug 2012 : 13:34:13
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
You got me to thinking about Mulhorand, Sleyvas, and at first I was liking the idea.
But then I realized, whats the point of rails at all? If you could build a massive automaton that could transfer large amounts of people around (like slaves back-and-forth to the fields), why put it on tracks?
How about a 'train' that walks? 
A hundred foot golem that people can climb into sounds pretty damn cool (and pretty damn intimidating to your neighbors). Oh... wait... did I just re-invent the tank?
How about trolleys (trams) instead of trains? I can definitely see that (the Elves in my campaign had a monorail, but I was intentionally 'spoofing' Disneyland).
See, now that's an idea that I could definitely see for Mulhorand. Perhaps auto-rolling cages (its hauling slaves, its doesn't need to be extremely defensible), but with "spell turrets" that fire against anyone approaching (or anyone escaping). Maybe the automatons have a guidance system that goes to a certain "beacon" point, and these beacon points are where large numbers of troops who then watch over the slaves once they reach said points.
As to the trolley system, that's another good idea, but not for Mulhorand. I was actually thinking of that for Halruaa. However, a trolley works on a suspended wire at the top that provides the power. The "trolley" in Halruaa might require the expenditure of a minor bit of magic (and for those who are magicless, maybe they can use a minor item to charge it). |
| Jeremy Grenemyer |
Posted - 04 Aug 2012 : 06:31:43
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by MarkustayHow about a 'train' that walks?
Yup. Similar to what I suggested in my previous posts. Each coach is a construct and is connected from end to end, the front/'head coach' being the biggest.
That would be pretty cool. I bet someone somewhere has tried that.
Sort of like a super golem or a super construct? Is this last something that might have been made in Lantan? Or maybe on the mainland somewhere because the Lantanese deemed it too dangerous? |
| Jeremy Grenemyer |
Posted - 04 Aug 2012 : 06:29:11
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
For local like you say for Suzail to Arabel.... just not enough to really warrant the everyday expense. Plus, the Zhents would mess with it. There's not enough normal travel between the two.
We'll have to agree to disagree then. I think there's a huge amount of traffic between Arabel and Suzail. Too much trading going on for their not to be, never mind the movement of nobles, their retinues and the back and forth of Purple Dragons and the like.
I don't worry that much about the Zhents; they mess with regular caravan traffic anyway, but people keep on trading.
To me, if the Zhents mess with something, that's a good thing. All the more reason to introduce player characters into the mix. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 04 Aug 2012 : 06:02:13
Thats actually better for intra-national transportation. I think railways are only cost-effective over very long distances (because they maintain a constant speed and can run for days at a time without stopping).
However, I still think a portal-network would be easier and simpler. The war Wizards can set something like that up fairly easily (and probably already have, except they don't share it... i don't know why they would).
That, or airships. Both fit FR's theme better, IMHO.
On the other hand, many project done in the late Renaissance/early industrialization age were sponsored by gov'ts solely to one-up other countries (or municipalities). Cities within the same country are know for their rivalries in this regard (New York & Chicago), and nations are even worse (like the US/USSR space-race, which had no (at that time) practical value.
So, while I just don't get it, I can look back our own RW history and not understand why a lot of crap was done, so why the hell not? I can definitely see an Obarskyr wanting to flaunt their new 'Thunderail' system in everyone's face. Doing it, just because they can.
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Also, in the case of Lathander (or similar god), their priests are known for kindness, mercy, and healing. In a world where temples have replaced hospitals, would you really take that risk of being denied by Lathander's clergy? Who you going to go to when you or someone you love gets sick? Bane? Cyric?
Good point. However, priests of LE deities like Bane and Cyric hardly care for healing from other gods, as their own also have the ability to heal, though not in the conventional/traditional way. Oppositions are always there. But it doesn't mean this idea can't work. Combining divine and arcane magic has a great deal of advantages.
Are there Lathanderite theurges in Corymyr? If there are, the crown might do well to commission them for this project.
I was actually expounding on someone else's idea (I think it was Jeremy). the idea that if priest were involved, most folk wouldn't bother it, for fear of pissing off a god.
And yes, rival priesthoods would then want to mess with it on purpose, but thats business-as-usual in the Realms. At least you'd keep the run-of-the-mill bandits and desperate peasants from trying to steal pieces of the system all the time.
And a good lightening charge on the discs would also help - there's a reason why people don't play on the tracks - the '3rd rail'. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 04 Aug 2012 : 04:37:26
I think the easiest thing would be the levitating wagons I mentioned earlier... The technology for building wagons is already well-known, and levitate is a relatively simple bit of magic. A pair of horses could easily pull three levitated wagons... Sure it may not be as fast as a train, but it'd be faster than the existing methods and easier to implement. Plus, there's no need for dedicated right-of-way or maintenance of the same. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 04 Aug 2012 : 00:19:50
In Mulhorand, I'm picturing something like The Sphinx.
And then there are the dinosaurs of dinotopia, who double as vehicles (including a firetruck!)
Lots of great ways to do 'mass transportation' in a fantasy setting besides trains.  |
| Dennis |
Posted - 03 Aug 2012 : 23:50:38
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
How about a 'train' that walks?
Yup. Similar to what I suggested in my previous posts. Each coach is a construct and is connected from end to end, the front/'head coach' being the biggest. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 03 Aug 2012 : 23:46:18
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Think local then. It wouldn't be a problem if only one individual controls the trade and practically everyone else in the realm. Consider Szass Tam and Thay.
I don't see it happening in Thay either pre-SP or post. Post-SP, I just don't see Szass giving enough of a sh*t to build it. Pre-SP when it would make a LOT of sense for shipping agriculture to say Bezantur, the problem would lie in control issues between the Zulkirs and the tharchions as well.... too little internal trust.
However, that being said, the local idea I could buy in Halruaa (pre-SP) or Lantan. It might even be doable maybe... maybe in Mulhorand if it were based on old artificer magi-tech (on a much smaller scale, but possibly as a means to transport large numbers of slaves to the fields and bring crops to the cities).
The Zulkirate is squashed when Szass Tam took over Thay and declared himself king. So, no, if the initiative comes from him, no one in his sane mind Thay would dare oppose its construction. As to its purpose...Well, he can use it to deploy his undead army (whose bulk are incapable of flying nor running fast) to anywhere in Thay he sees fit at a faster, time-efficient manner. Or, he can simply give it as boon to the living populace of his domain. Convenient and fast travel. Who wouldn't want it?
Yes, Halruaa would be a nice place to have it too. And far safer, if I may add. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 03 Aug 2012 : 23:32:54
You got me to thinking about Mulhorand, Sleyvas, and at first I was liking the idea.
But then I realized, whats the point of rails at all? If you could build a massive automaton that could transfer large amounts of people around (like slaves back-and-forth to the fields), why put it on tracks?
How about a 'train' that walks?
A hundred foot golem that people can climb into sounds pretty damn cool (and pretty damn intimidating to your neighbors). Oh... wait... did I just re-invent the tank?
How about trolleys (trams) instead of trains? I can definitely see that (the Elves in my campaign had a monorail, but I was intentionally 'spoofing' Disneyland). |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 03 Aug 2012 : 23:30:59
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Stress on the MAINTAIN. The number of monsters that would play havoc with this system in the realms if it were along any long distance is amazing....
I don't doubt that, but the danger is no more then what a caravan might experience.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
and for a short distance (i.e. within a kingdom) it would be generally easier to use other methods because you lost the advantages of versatility (i.e. there would be a more limited number of get on/get off points).
I don't agree here.
If you had a line, say, from Suzail to Arabel and it managed to work swiftly and more or less consistently, I think the value would be pretty obvious.
Suppose Cormyr warred with orcs or monsters out of the Stonelands or even Shade to the north: all their foes might discount the rail line until it proved the means of Cormyr's salvation by moving troops and supplies to Arabel to the war effort could be more quickly prosecuted.
It would be more dangerous than what caravans face because someone could setup a possible derailment fairly easily (if you're using rails, they could mess with them...if something else, they could mess with that with impunity). Plus, people would have to periodically maintain them, and in the dangerous areas, that just means free food.
For local like you say for Suzail to Arabel.... just not enough to really warrant the everyday expense. Plus, the Zhents would mess with it. There's not enough normal travel between the two. I did give you some examples that I did believe MIGHT work (Halruaa and Lantan.... and maybe Mulhorand), but those would be the few and far between areas of the realms where I could see a local railway being viable and not messed with. |
|
|
