| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Fellfire |
Posted - 17 May 2012 : 22:02:10
So, I am looking for a little advice. I plan on using the Wooly Mammoth from Frostburn. I had thought to have my PC's consult the matriarch of the mastodons, (Runetusk?) perhaps an awakened animal sacred to Oghma(?), even a spell-caster. It is said elephants (pachyderms) never forget. I was thinking of running an oracle encounter in an Elephant Graveyard. If such an animal were telepathically capable of communication, would complex concepts such as say, blame or regret be within their lexicon? Or would fight or flight or food be their primary response? How would you role-play this conversation? Looking for any suggestions. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Fellfire |
Posted - 19 May 2012 : 22:21:21
The more I consider it, the more it seems as if the mammoth tribe, if you will, will need some sort liaison, one of their number to communicate the wishes and will of the Eldest. A simple speak with animals might suffice.
No, I did not intend to railroad the players, nor did I intend for this to be their only source of information. I thought it might be a fun and flavorful encounter, moreso than a simple divination.
Considering the speak with dead angle, would Kelemvor be a better choice? |
| Sightless |
Posted - 19 May 2012 : 22:08:08
Or perhaps a loremaster/ mestress. In many tribal societys, such an individual would have a strong connection to tending the dead and overseeing barreal. If a loremaster/mistress, then the selection of the God would seem apropriate yes. The process by which the animal became awoken may need not be explained, in high fantasy many such mysteries are found.
Will you be forcing your party to earn the right to enter the grave yard, or will you have the Loremaster meet the party outside the graveyard. Entering it uninvited will cause problems, as I'm sure the group has had problems with ivory hunters. |
| Fellfire |
Posted - 19 May 2012 : 21:42:56
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't think it's as much that he's picking Oghma as patron of elephants in general -- I think he's saying that this one very smart entity with racial memory happens to be a mammoth.
Although Lurue or a Beast Lord would be an obvious choice for an awakened animal, there could be any number of reasons that this one chose Oghma... Perhaps he was awakened by a priest of Oghma?
Indeed, perhaps Silvanus or even Chauntea or Eldath might be a better selection, I don't know. I thought it would be more Realmsian than a Beast Lord or interloper god. And seeing as how the PC's are begging knowledge known only to the mammoths, Oghma seemed a logical choice.
Maybe this Elder Mammoth is somehow able to commune with the dead in the Graveyard. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 19 May 2012 : 17:57:02
Yag-Kosha was an exile from a world of beings similar to him that ARE evil and malign in the extreme.
Yag-Kosha was a mentor of sorcerers in times before the Hyborian age; until he met Yara, was tricked and became the slave of the evil human wizard.
One of my favorite "beings" in the world of Conan.
However...this does show us that if Yag-Kosha was peaceful and the last of his "Good" kind; then his homeworld might be filled with evil beings just as powerful as him! |
| Sightless |
Posted - 19 May 2012 : 15:37:14
Lovecraft may have taken the name from him, they were friends after all. And both died early in their respective careers. Go figure. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 19 May 2012 : 15:20:00
My error, the Yag-Kosha references I quickly found seemed to point squarely towards the malign Cthulhu mythos. |
| Sightless |
Posted - 19 May 2012 : 14:56:53
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Yag-Kosha seems a little monstrous, but certainly possible. I think it unlikely anyone normal would want to roleplay one of his followers.
He was a benavelent other planetary being imprisend by a wizard in a Conan short story by Robert Howard, the orignator of Conan, called the Towar of the heart of the elephent. The short story has a synopsis on wikipedia. The name is a mix of Hindu and persion for wise teacher of the stars. It just probably sounds a little monsterous. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 19 May 2012 : 14:05:44
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Why pick Oghma as a patron deity for sentient elephants? The Realms (at least, the pre-4E Realms) could and did easily accomodate any number of Beast Lords, Beast Cults, monstrous pantheons, and generally non-human deities. It's also always possible for interloper or immigrant powers to be introduced to the Realms along with the arrival of their followers from other worlds. A dormant or foreign elephantine power (an aspect of Indra, from the Vedic/Hindu pantheon, as just one possible example) might assert presence in the Realms, creating followers with a sort of transformation/blessing/curse resembling an elephanty version of minotaurs.
I don't think it's as much that he's picking Oghma as patron of elephants in general -- I think he's saying that this one very smart entity with racial memory happens to be a mammoth.
Although Lurue or a Beast Lord would be an obvious choice for an awakened animal, there could be any number of reasons that this one chose Oghma... Perhaps he was awakened by a priest of Oghma?
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I might be mistaken, but I recall some canon mention of the Harpells possessing miniature and sentient versions of several (normally large and dumb) animals, including palm-sized talking elephants.
I think that was in Streams of Silver. It's from the Icewind Dale trilogy, I'm sure. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 19 May 2012 : 13:19:01
Yag-Kosha seems a little monstrous, but certainly possible. I think it unlikely anyone normal would want to roleplay one of his followers. |
| Sightless |
Posted - 19 May 2012 : 12:25:20
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
You might want to check out Oliphants (2E MM); Baku, Maelephants, and Hollyphants (2E MC8: Outer Planes Appendix; MC Appendices: Planescape I, Planescape II); Kaluk and Shirokinukatsukami (2E MC6: Kara-Tur Appendix).
[Edits]
Surprisingly, there seem to be no special elephant-creatures in Zakhara (2E MC13: Al-Qadim Appendix). I would expect Chult to be a fine place for anything of the sort to appear within the Realms, but my library has few materials covering the region. An elephantine counterpart to Giff spelljammers might also be an interesting possibility. Gods help us if some fool has introduced misbegotten strains of "elefey" or "were-loxo" creatures into the D&D ecosystem.
Why pick Oghma as a patron deity for sentient elephants? The Realms (at least, the pre-4E Realms) could and did easily accomodate any number of Beast Lords, Beast Cults, monstrous pantheons, and generally non-human deities. It's also always possible for interloper or immigrant powers to be introduced to the Realms along with the arrival of their followers from other worlds. A dormant or foreign elephantine power (an aspect of Indra, from the Vedic/Hindu pantheon, as just one possible example) might assert presence in the Realms, creating followers with a sort of transformation/blessing/curse resembling an elephanty version of minotaurs.
I might be mistaken, but I recall some canon mention of the Harpells possessing miniature and sentient versions of several (normally large and dumb) animals, including palm-sized talking elephants.
Yag-Kosha?
"As to where his brethern might now be, only the Gods knew."
The moment someone mentioned spelljammer this story by Howard popped into my head. |
| Thauranil |
Posted - 19 May 2012 : 12:09:22
quote:
Originally posted by Sightless
quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I think humans (as a species) are already overly intuitive and emotionally expressive ... but sorely lacking in rational and objective forms of intelligence. Elephants with human-equivalent intellects might turn out to be brilliant mathematicians, logicians, and scientists, entirely unmoved by quaint human attachment towards (and dependency upon) emotionally-satisfying fabrications.
Good point .
But seriously elephants have an extremely strong family based society , so it is unlikely they will turn into rational scientists. Though that might be interesting in its own right.
You know this is a great example of a reduxio ad Aherium, do you mind if I borrow it?
Fell free especially as you helped me learn a new concept namely reduxio ad Aherium. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 19 May 2012 : 10:07:12
On a related note; I took some time to type up the Vulturan I mentioned earlier. I was wrong about a few things regarding their origin; but I corrected a bit and it is now digital instead of "notebooked" like many things I have.
If you want to have a look:
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16566
Personally, I've always liked "Smart" animals since I was a child reading about Narnia. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 19 May 2012 : 08:56:56
You might want to check out Oliphants (2E MM); Baku, Maelephants, and Hollyphants (2E MC8: Outer Planes Appendix; MC Appendices: Planescape I, Planescape II); Kaluk and Shirokinukatsukami (2E MC6: Kara-Tur Appendix).
[Edits]
Surprisingly, there seem to be no special elephant-creatures in Zakhara (2E MC13: Al-Qadim Appendix). I would expect Chult to be a fine place for anything of the sort to appear within the Realms, but my library has few materials covering the region. An elephantine counterpart to Giff spelljammers might also be an interesting possibility. Gods help us if some fool has introduced misbegotten strains of "elefey" or "were-loxo" creatures into the D&D ecosystem.
Why pick Oghma as a patron deity for sentient elephants? The Realms (at least, the pre-4E Realms) could and did easily accomodate any number of Beast Lords, Beast Cults, monstrous pantheons, and generally non-human deities. It's also always possible for interloper or immigrant powers to be introduced to the Realms along with the arrival of their followers from other worlds. A dormant or foreign elephantine power (an aspect of Indra, from the Vedic/Hindu pantheon, as just one possible example) might assert presence in the Realms, creating followers with a sort of transformation/blessing/curse resembling an elephanty version of minotaurs.
I might be mistaken, but I recall some canon mention of the Harpells possessing miniature and sentient versions of several (normally large and dumb) animals, including palm-sized talking elephants. |
| Fellfire |
Posted - 19 May 2012 : 08:24:26
I will look in to the Loxo for some inspiration. Thank you for the suggestion, Scribes.
I will elaborate a bit on the idea that I had. First off, I had thought Oghma a good choice for the patron of an awakened mammoth considering the fact that they are said to be highly intelligent and perhaps even to possess some form of racial memory, but I'm open to other suggestions. I considered making the animal Chosen/Favored, whatever, so that telepathic communication would be possible. I'm not sure that's graven in stone anywhere, but it seems reasonable to me. I had also thought a few clerical levels would be appropriate. As far as gaining the animal's trust and the honor of being allowed to visit their sacred site and their Eldest I planned on running an encounter with a dire/fiendish smilodon or something. My biggest obstacle was scripting dialogue. I'm still really unsure how much "humanity" (if that's the right word) to assign the creature in conversation. Anyhow, I hope that clears up my intentions a little. Thanks for all the replies thus far. |
| Fellfire |
Posted - 19 May 2012 : 07:59:51
Sorry for the confusion, Sightless. I hadn't heard that quote before and a quick Google yielded no results. My Latin has lain fallow since A+P back in high school. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 19 May 2012 : 03:39:24
quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
So, I am looking for a little advice. I plan on using the Wooly Mammoth from Frostburn. I had thought to have my PC's consult the matriarch of the mastodons, (Runetusk?) perhaps an awakened animal sacred to Oghma(?), even a spell-caster. It is said elephants (pachyderms) never forget. I was thinking of running an oracle encounter in an Elephant Graveyard. If such an animal were telepathically capable of communication, would complex concepts such as say, blame or regret be within their lexicon? Or would fight or flight or food be their primary response? How would you role-play this conversation? Looking for any suggestions.
I am trying to consider all parts of this.
Runetusk is as good a name as any for a mage of mastodons, as matriarch might even be a Chosen of Oghma. Clearly awaken spell can increase the stats, however divine intervention can do that as well.
Well telepathic ability clearly possible for a mage (Or magical item for any class), if you want clearly could consider psionics (however not required).
It is clearly believed Elephants have very good memories, that they remember friends and foes for years. Being awakened, there should be some wisdom that should be bought to any conversation.
I would say, blame regret, sorrow all could enter a conversation the reaction to the specific individuals seeking the oracle by their questions very well could determine reaction. As the graveyard is generally off limits to non race, I could see a very hostile reaction as posible unless contact made slowly and clearly one of peace. In fact I would likely play it more like the matriarch would not let outsiders in the graveyard, however might meet with them near it (25 miles or more away, a few days travel ). |
| The Sage |
Posted - 19 May 2012 : 03:00:07
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I just thought of this... There is already an established race of humanoid elephants in the Realms, the loxo. Sure, that's not what we're looking for, here -- but the info on them (which isn't much more than a page in a Monstrous Compendium) could still offer some inspiration.
You'll also find some updated info about the loxo in 3e's Shining South, which reveals that this curious race of intelligent elephants arrived in Realmspace via spelljammer.
Which, in itself, raised some further interesting questions about them. I've always been curious about the Loxoth homeworld, and what other intelligent animals might be inhabiting it. |
| Sightless |
Posted - 19 May 2012 : 00:11:49
Odd, I heard the question marks in both of yours, but not his. Just one of theose many mysteries of the internet that'll never be explained. Thanks both for clearing that up.
No |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 19 May 2012 : 00:01:08
He only placed three question marks mate. Short-hand for a question from some. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 18 May 2012 : 23:59:11
quote:
Originally posted by Sightless
Fellfire, I'm probably missing something, but it sounds like all you did there was quote people, and I get the feeling that this isn't the case, is there an image there? usually JAWS will tell me if one is there, but not what it is, that's why I'm asking.
His post was just three question marks, indicating he was questioning that which he quoted. |
| Sightless |
Posted - 18 May 2012 : 23:38:31
Fellfire, I'm probably missing something, but it sounds like all you did there was quote people, and I get the feeling that this isn't the case, is there an image there? usually JAWS will tell me if one is there, but not what it is, that's why I'm asking.
|
| Sightless |
Posted - 18 May 2012 : 23:35:38
My apologies, let me explain, it's simeilar to that in scope, as means reduction of assumptions. In logical arguments, it's either assuming something that's not actually there, or assuming tha two elements are controdictory when they aren't. the classic example of this is emotion and reason having to be mutually exclusive, when they aren't. In this case, having strong family ties,
(A and Sbq)
can be conjoined to, and has been conjoined to
(B and Rtf)
This forms a statement with both elements joined with an and.
What this means in language is that one can have strong family ties and still be rational, as the presence or absence of one doesn't necesitate any impact on the other. I liked the statement, because it's one that nearly all my tutoring students make in some respect or another, and the language of it was so marvelously worded. I'm probably sounding like a horendous nerd right now. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 18 May 2012 : 23:16:56
I know about reducing something to absurdity...not too clear on the Aherium myself?
EDIT:
spelling...AND
If you want awakened animals to kinda look at, the Realms is full of them!
I mean, we have Worgs as an example...Minotaurs (perhaps not a good example...but there) and many others.
The only race that I thought was really cool that I thought I came up with that didn't have a similar creature was a race of intelligent carrion eaters called the Vulturan (from big ol' Turkey Vultures) that I thought would be interesting.
They venerated a particular Vrock highly, and their greatest spellcaster had acquired the ability to Summon it (though I can't remember the name). They often looted battle-fields and such for anything they could find beyond eating the dead. They had even started to take slaves of smaller races to force them to build for them.
Makes me want to go dig them up! |
| Fellfire |
Posted - 18 May 2012 : 23:06:39
quote:
Originally posted by Sightless
quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I think humans (as a species) are already overly intuitive and emotionally expressive ... but sorely lacking in rational and objective forms of intelligence. Elephants with human-equivalent intellects might turn out to be brilliant mathematicians, logicians, and scientists, entirely unmoved by quaint human attachment towards (and dependency upon) emotionally-satisfying fabrications.
Good point.
But seriously elephants have an extremely strong family based society , so it is unlikely they will turn into rational scientists. Though that might be interesting in its own right.
You know this is a great example of a reduxio ad Aherium, do you mind if I borrow it?
??? |
| Sightless |
Posted - 18 May 2012 : 18:52:56
* grin*
I was refereing to Thauranil there, but thanks there.
|
| Ayrik |
Posted - 18 May 2012 : 18:26:47
Sure, I like to be quoted. You can quote me on that. |
| Sightless |
Posted - 18 May 2012 : 17:41:01
quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I think humans (as a species) are already overly intuitive and emotionally expressive ... but sorely lacking in rational and objective forms of intelligence. Elephants with human-equivalent intellects might turn out to be brilliant mathematicians, logicians, and scientists, entirely unmoved by quaint human attachment towards (and dependency upon) emotionally-satisfying fabrications.
Good point.
But seriously elephants have an extremely strong family based society , so it is unlikely they will turn into rational scientists. Though that might be interesting in its own right.
You know this is a great example of a reduxio ad Aherium, do you mind if I borrow it?
|
| Thauranil |
Posted - 18 May 2012 : 17:32:26
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I think humans (as a species) are already overly intuitive and emotionally expressive ... but sorely lacking in rational and objective forms of intelligence. Elephants with human-equivalent intellects might turn out to be brilliant mathematicians, logicians, and scientists, entirely unmoved by quaint human attachment towards (and dependency upon) emotionally-satisfying fabrications.
Good point.
But seriously elephants have an extremely strong family based society , so it is unlikely they will turn into rational scientists. Though that might be interesting in its own right. |
| Sightless |
Posted - 18 May 2012 : 17:12:56
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I think humans (as a species) are already overly intuitive and emotionally expressive ... but sorely lacking in rational and objective forms of intelligence. Elephants with human-equivalent intellects might turn out to be brilliant mathematicians, logicians, and scientists, entirely unmoved by quaint human attachment towards (and dependency upon) emotionally-satisfying fabrications.
That's part of humanities problems, general lack of retrospective and introspective thought by a large part of the populis combined with short term gratification over long term gratification is another element. If elephents only had another truely apposable digit, there's no telling how far the leve of neurological development might be through self-actualized eenvirnmental enrichment. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 18 May 2012 : 17:01:05
I just thought of this... There is already an established race of humanoid elephants in the Realms, the loxo. Sure, that's not what we're looking for, here -- but the info on them (which isn't much more than a page in a Monstrous Compendium) could still offer some inspiration. |
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