| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Dennis |
Posted - 14 Apr 2012 : 04:37:36
I’m reading The Magician’s Apprentice by Trudi Canavan, and I can’t help but compare Sachaka to Thay. Sachaka is a magocracy where most of the ashaki or magician-lords are as cruel as the Red Wizards and where slavery is commonplace. Slaves are easily replaceable. Magicians kill them almost at a daily basis, either for some mistakes (whether grave or trivial) the poor slaves make, or simply for the sake of ‘twisted fun.’ However, not all magicians are as cold-hearted. Some of them are just forced to appear cruel because they’re bound by tradition that span centuries…
Are there Red Wizards of Thay who are like the latter? Do some of them feel they need to keep a ‘tough image’ for fear of being cast out? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Dennis |
Posted - 31 May 2012 : 05:46:16
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
If they are ruthless and capable of detachment and calculation that would horrify the naive, that does not make them evil. It just means they've survived a particularly harsh place and a harsh time.
They always have a choice. That they choose to be cruel to survive in a harsh society is hardly justification enough to say they're not evil.
Leaving Thay is an option, which some Thayans, commoners and Red Wizards alike, have done. |
| Thauranil |
Posted - 21 May 2012 : 11:39:30
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Not just those you hate, but those you think insignificant. Most evil people treat those without power or money insignificant, and at times, are the subjects of their "lab experiments."
It is not how you treat those you love that makes you good but how you treat those you consider insignificant. Hmmm if you repalce hate with insignificant it just doesn't sound as good
Though I otherwise agree with you.
|
| Dennis |
Posted - 20 May 2012 : 02:20:02
Not just those you hate, but those you think insignificant. Most evil people treat those without power or money insignificant, and at times, are the subjects of their "lab experiments." |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 20 May 2012 : 02:06:41
quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
It is not how you treat those you love that makes you good but how you treat those you hate.
I love this...and it perfectly fits those of Evil alignment for me.
Raistlin Majere always comes to mind... |
| Dennis |
Posted - 20 May 2012 : 01:41:19
True, in most cases. I must say intention overrides the action, in some ways. A Red Wizard who hates the zulkir of his own school of magic can pretend to be loyal to him (either because he fears him or gains a certain advantage from him) by abasing himself and doing all his bidding, all the while thinking of the many ways to kill him... |
| Thauranil |
Posted - 19 May 2012 : 12:25:56
It is not how you treat those you love that makes you good but how you treat those you hate. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 19 May 2012 : 03:41:01
I once thought Lauzoril himself was good, for having truly cared for and loved his wife and daughter. But his life outside the confines of his home proved otherwise... |
| Thauranil |
Posted - 17 May 2012 : 12:40:59
Very probable, lets face it there is no way you can become zulkir without wading through a river of your enemies blood.
Though I suppose since most red wizards are evil ,killing them is not necessarily an evil act. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 16 May 2012 : 15:30:27
Likely. It's also possible that as an accomplished diviner, she covered her tracks (evil or good deeds) well, trying to be always one step ahead of her peers---and likely this is the reason she jumped from one faction to another. |
| Thauranil |
Posted - 16 May 2012 : 13:14:53
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
How about Yaphyll? Other than being fickle-minded, she's never shown a particularly evil deed. Her lack of loyalty to her factions (first with Szass Tam's, then with Nevron's, then back with Tam's again) was necessary for survival and could hardly be deemed evil.
She definitely lacked the maliciousness of say Nevron but does alone that make her good ,probably not . I think you could classify her as neutral i suppose. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 15 May 2012 : 15:31:07
How about Yaphyll? Other than being fickle-minded, she's never shown a particularly evil deed. Her lack of loyalty to her factions (first with Szass Tam's, then with Nevron's, then back with Tam's again) was necessary for survival and could hardly be deemed evil. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 04 May 2012 : 21:07:30
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I picture America more like Nethril then Thay - Thay may be a bit too evil. 
The Netherese were opportunists, which translates into modern terminology as capitalists. Thayans make their own opportunities, and are more likely to use excessive force to control groups and seize territory, rather then propaganda and/or gifts (which makes Thay more like the old Soviet union... in many ways).
Capitalist/opportunist societies know when to cut their loses better - I liken the Netherese withdrawal from Arcane space to the US's cancellation of most of our space program. If Thay got SJ tech, they'd probably just keep hammering away it, no matter what adversity they faced (and what loses they accrued).
EDIT: related to topic
So using the above comparison, you are about as likely to find a 'good' red wizard as you were to find a non-corrupt soviet official, which may not have been common, but there were bound to be a few mixed-in with a 'bad bunch'.
I think a mix of the two makes sense, now that you mention it. They definitely aren't communistic like the Soviets, because they're not interested in the government being responsible for maintaining the life of its citizenry at all. Citizens need to make their own way, or get out of the way. Also, like capitalists they tried to control other countries through products, like agriculture. However, they also made those other countries need them by stealing their weather. However, your reference to them not knowing when to cut their losses... from a societal view that's dead on, except that I do see them learning from the mistakes and changing their methods (individuals will move onto something else, but others will likely pickup the charge). The corruption part is also hugely true, but that's becoming a factor nowadays too, sadly. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 01 May 2012 : 02:32:09
Good point. However, the Red Wizards rarely confront their competitors head-on. They work through proxies most of the time, and cover their tracks as deftly as they can. If you're a good Red Wizard and kills an evil competitor via paid or loyal servants/assassins, then how would others know you do it?
Maybe just find another 'good' Red Wizard, befriend him, and pretend to have a long, brutal rivalry to keep up the cruel image? Birds of the same feather flock together... |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 30 Apr 2012 : 04:55:28
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
And I'm curious to know who they are, if indeed they do exist. Maybe they hide their 'true nature' under the veil of 'mock cruelty.'
The easiest way for a non-evil Red Wizard to cover his tracks is to "vent his anger" on actually Evil competition!
By taking out evil targets and swearing it is simple competition, they rid the Realms of evil at the same time as cover their own ass. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 30 Apr 2012 : 01:26:54
And I'm curious to know who they are, if indeed they do exist. Maybe they hide their 'true nature' under the veil of 'mock cruelty.' |
| Markustay |
Posted - 29 Apr 2012 : 19:27:15
I picture America more like Nethril then Thay - Thay may be a bit too evil.
The Netherese were opportunists, which translates into modern terminology as capitalists. Thayans make their own opportunities, and are more likely to use excessive force to control groups and seize territory, rather then propaganda and/or gifts (which makes Thay more like the old Soviet union... in many ways).
Capitalist/opportunist societies know when to cut their loses better - I liken the Netherese withdrawal from Arcane space to the US's cancellation of most of our space program. If Thay got SJ tech, they'd probably just keep hammering away it, no matter what adversity they faced (and what loses they accrued).
EDIT: related to topic
So using the above comparison, you are about as likely to find a 'good' red wizard as you were to find a non-corrupt soviet official, which may not have been common, but there were bound to be a few mixed-in with a 'bad bunch'. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 29 Apr 2012 : 14:47:32
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I agree...in a game it is evil to pick what is evil...but lets look at something here.
You have an influential aristocrat who is both a freedom fighter from an old empire...yet he owns slaves and thinks nothing of doing so; though he does arrange for them to be freed when he is no longer alive. Not exactly a self-sacrificing type as he doesn't want to lose his wealthy status though he is fighting for the Freedom of his fellow slave owning and land owning elite aristocratic friends.
Now that definition can apply to two different people:
A Red Wizard fighting against Mulhorand...
Or George Washington.
You decide...
Lol, and here I thought I was one of the few who sees so many commonalities between the formation of America and America a few decades back with Thay. Put a dark twist and magic into it, and.... voila... Thay. Granted, its more from a technological or political perspective, but the two are similar concepts. Thay wanted freedom from religious persecution in their research. Thay is a powerful country agriculturally. Thay has great magical resources that can create many things that technology can do. Thay has the ability to supply severed amounts of "greatly" unskilled labor forces in the form of undead to perform projects that technological America would perform with heavy machinery. Thus, Thay's "peasantry" is more likely to be overseers, engineers, artists, etc....
By the way, one of the things I had instituted in my games back in 2nd edition was the idea of Aulkirs (sub-schools of specialization which served the major schools of magic). When 3.5 edition came out and they introduced the new base classes, I rethought about this idea, because a lot of those base classes fit within the structure of certain of the schools. Just because someone may find the idea useful or it might be fun to discuss, I'll put my thoughts below.
From Tome of Magic, I can see pact magic as being a little researched field. However, I can see there being a small group of pact magi who are anima mages. Perhaps the lore of pact magic is found within the libraries of the schools of necromancy and conjuration. This lore dates back to one of the original founders of free Thay, Velsharoon.
Also from ToM, I can see there being those who study the combination of shadow magic within the school of illusion as noctumancers. I don't see Thay necessarily having truename magic though.
From heroes of Horror come two classes that just scream Thay to me. First, the archivist. I see Thay as being one of the few places in the realms where the archivists will have actually developed and thrived. This group would be tied to the schools of abjuration and divination, but only barely. They would not be tied to a specific deity (each person would serve their own patron, but the goals of the group wouldn't serve any one deity). I can see a "monastery" of archivists who serve Deneir, Oghma, or Azuth as their primary patron, with small shrines to Zann of Al-Qadim as well. Obviously, the mystic theurges of Thay would have a large percentage from this group.
Also from HoH, the dread necromancer is a perfect fit for Thay and an obvious sub-school within the school of necromancy. For those "nobles" who come from families who have typically served the school of necromancy, but lack the intellectual ability to become wizards, they may have the ability to become dread necromancers and thus have the ability to control and repair minor undead. Thus, many work crews of undead in Thay may have a dread necromancer "overseer" who will pass amongst the skeletons, and where one's arm has been crushed, they use their charnel touch to fix it. Given the number of undead within pre-spell plague Thay, I can see this class as actually being fairly common in Thay (though practically unheard of in other cultures).
From the Complete Adventurer, the idea of the spellthief would be somewhat abhorrent in Thay, except for amongst the enchanter's school. I can definitely see Lauzoril having a secret group of spellthieves whom he uses to infiltrate and assassinate enemy targets of Thay. Similiarly, I can see both the schools of illusion and enchantment sponsoring beguilers.
From the Complete Arcane, while warlocks will exist, their subservience to another power will be frowned upon. It wouldn't be a common thing in Thay. Both the warmage and the wu-jen make perfect fits for Thay, but I'd put the wu-jen as a rarity for those that have studied the elemental magics of the Far East and/or Zakhara. I can definitely see a school of warmages though with ties to the school of evocation and the church of Kossuth.
There are obviously other classes that could fit (for instance, a group of hexblades that serve Beshaba), but this covers how I see the majority of these other classes actually fitting well in one place within the realms without it being a shoe-horned thing. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 29 Apr 2012 : 13:38:13
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I agree...in a game it is evil to pick what is evil...but lets look at something here.
You have an influential aristocrat who is both a freedom fighter from an old empire...yet he owns slaves and thinks nothing of doing so; though he does arrange for them to be freed when he is no longer alive. Not exactly a self-sacrificing type as he doesn't want to lose his wealthy status though he is fighting for the Freedom of his fellow slave owning and land owning elite aristocratic friends.
Now that definition can apply to two different people:
A Red Wizard fighting against Mulhorand...
Or George Washington.
You decide...
Lol, and here I thought I was one of the few who sees so many commonalities between the formation of America and America a few decades back with Thay. Put a dark twist and magic into it, and.... voila... Thay. Granted, its more from a technological or political perspective, but the two are similar concepts. Thay wanted freedom from religious persecution in their research. Thay is a powerful country agriculturally. Thay has great magical resources that can create many things that technology can do. Thay has the ability to supply severed amounts of "greatly" unskilled labor forces in the form of undead to perform projects that technological America would perform with heavy machinery. Thus, Thay's "peasantry" is more likely to be overseers, engineers, artists, etc.... |
| Icelander |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 05:04:19
Evil is such a jejune term. Everyone has the potential for selfishness and greed, disregarding the feelings of others.
It doesn't invalidate everything else about them, their loyalties and allegiances, loves and likes.
Red Wizards are people like any other. They act according to their own moral compass, doing what they feel is right, what fits their cultural prejudices and their personal inclinations.
Since the culture they live in does not require them to buy into many of the polite fictions that characterise the ideal world of novel characters and cultural heroes of our Western world, they are likely to exhibit behaviour that appears callous and selfish to American readers. To an extent, this is true. From another perspective, our modern culture requires loud affirmation of principles that people rarely, if ever, observe in the breach.
In reality, people are far greyer than Disney and Hollywood would have us believe. Red Wizards are genuinely damaged in an emotional and moral sense by the society that they live in, but that society is no further from the real world than the idealised society of heroic fiction is. The reality is somewhere in between.
Of course there are Red Wizards that are honourable, decent people. If they are ruthless and capable of detachment and calculation that would horrify the naive, that does not make them evil. It just means they've survived a particularly harsh place and a harsh time.
By the same token, there are also Red Wizards who are truly evil. People can be evil and without a steady diet of lies and socialisation to convince us that this is wrong, more of us would succumb to temptation. Some people are bastards, always will be, and only the polite fictions that mark civilised society serve to keep them in check. If they no longer had to pretend, their bastardry would reach heights undreamed of.
All in all, though, it's a matter of degree. True evil exists in every society and in every society, people are mostly selfish and observe the 'decencies' only by social pressure. It's just that in some societies, the pressures are greater. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 20 Apr 2012 : 20:47:43
Although that was a spur-of-the-moment comment, and was meant in jest, I HAVE used the Illuminati in some of my Planescape stuff (they are a secretive, almost unknown 'faction' in Sigil).
Since there are supposedly connections between the Illuminati and the Free-Masons (and old George was a big-time Mason), it would actually fit just fine in my own world-model. No reason why Realms intrigues have to stop at the border of the Crystal Sphere.
In fact, I have theorized that (D&D) Earth is a haven for many 'things' that have either been banished, or seeking asylum (sort of like how the MiB movies portray aliens), because of its low-magic limitations* makes it the perfect place to hide, and to imprison powerful magic-types (I use quite a bit from the Gothic Erath Gazeteer as model for my Earth's past.. along with a good dose of Marvel comics history).
Poor George Washington (formerly Jorgwa of Shington) was one of the last Scarlet Bards to be exiled from Thay when the Zulkirs felt the need to expunge the group (they suspected them of having been infiltrated by the Harpers). Sad story, really.
He befriended Benfra Nklin, Tinker Gnome extraordinaire - I thought this common knowledge.
*This has to do with ancient war between Lemuria and Atlantis, which destroyed the 'Mana Poles'. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 20 Apr 2012 : 20:29:47
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
How do we know George Washington wasn't an exiled Red Wizard?
Probably why he hated 'Red Coats' so much.
Only you Markustay...only you! |
| Markustay |
Posted - 20 Apr 2012 : 18:05:17
How do we know George Washington wasn't an exiled Red Wizard?
Probably why he hated 'Red Coats' so much. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 20 Apr 2012 : 00:07:04
That is exactly my point...but how do many see George Washington?
D&D has a good idea in having a clear cut good vs. evil & chaos vs. law; but it only goes so far. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 19 Apr 2012 : 23:50:04
Fighting for freedom is hardly a good act.
The phaerimm used to fight for freedom from their centuries-old imprisonment in the Sharnwall. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 19 Apr 2012 : 23:19:23
I agree...in a game it is evil to pick what is evil...but lets look at something here.
You have an influential aristocrat who is both a freedom fighter from an old empire...yet he owns slaves and thinks nothing of doing so; though he does arrange for them to be freed when he is no longer alive. Not exactly a self-sacrificing type as he doesn't want to lose his wealthy status though he is fighting for the Freedom of his fellow slave owning and land owning elite aristocratic friends.
Now that definition can apply to two different people:
A Red Wizard fighting against Mulhorand...
Or George Washington.
You decide... |
| Dennis |
Posted - 19 Apr 2012 : 22:03:16
We have different 'standards' in deeming one as evil or not. But one doesn't have to look at a common Red Wizard and think twice about his 'evilness.' Lust for power, thinking and behaving your race is far superior than others, treating slaves (people) as objects, killing (non-slave) innocent people at a whim, backstabbing allies, and obsessive greed for wealth---these are common traits of a Red Wizard of Thay. Surely you don't think they're good qualities? |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 19 Apr 2012 : 16:20:23
Beyond the examples given here about "Evil" characters...we have to think of Evil as a concept that can be defined by others instead of the individual thought of as being evil.
Not every person in the Forgotten Realms who IS evil THINKS they are evil! A Paladin might detect a street thug as evil...but many such thugs might go home at night after having beaten the daylights out of someone and taken their money to give it to their ailing mother who needs the money for a potion to make her well. That same man, who has his sick mother living with him, may also be married (and madly in love with) a young woman who has just gave birth to a child who the man also adores and loves.
The "Thug" may in fact be a respected member of his own neighborhood who gives copper coins to little kids to by bread for their family, he may chop wood for the elderly and shovel snow in the winter for his neighbors...but when there is need...
He crouches in the shadows of an alley waiting for some "rich snob" to stagger drunkenly by, and then leap out to club them over the head with the leg of a stool and rob them blind of everything they carry.
Has he done evil, yes...and that once in a while action defines him as evil in the eyes of the adventurers when they see him do it...and it may cost him his life...sadly so; because so many "good" people will suffer without the help of this "evil man" it would seem.
The "game" we play must of course usually eliminate such blending of what is right and wrong so that we can enjoy our game...but in my games, I don't negate such facets because I think that it is far more enjoyable to work through the intricate nature of what is Good and Evil. |
| _Jarlaxle_ |
Posted - 19 Apr 2012 : 16:03:27
Just a little side note. Carring for, being nice to, loving or being loyal to someone or a group doesn't make you not evil.
Making you not evil is not performing evil acts. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 19 Apr 2012 : 15:29:14
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
In the Simbul's Gift, tone of the Zulkirs (of Enchantment) who was definitely not evil. The Simbul even sort of grew to not hate him if that is possible for her and a Red Wizard. He had a family and treated his servants kindly, and I think he even kept his real job as Zulkir from his children? Gah..wish I could remember more but I'm at work and my books are at home.
Lauzoril. Always was my favorite Zulkir.
He has a 'soft' or romantic side, as almost all gifted Enchanters do. But he's definitely evil. That's how he's portrayed in The Haunted Lands, a little bit close to neutral, but not to good.
I was thinking of Samas Kul, because compared to his equals, murder/cruelty is near to last on his list. However, he enjoys food (money, women, wine) far too much. And I realized avarice is not a virtue.
Oh, yeah, Lauzoril is definitely evil, but he's definitely loyal to Thay at the same time. I did like his portrayal in the Simbul's Gift though, as did Seravin, because it showed him as a softer side of evil. Just because someone's evil doesn't mean they're totally bad. It might just mean they're more self centered or ambitious than is probably healthy. My favorite are the kind that have a moral compass that they try to follow (but of course, we all like a tragic or anti-hero).
Its actually something I've minorly struggled with when it comes to determining Sleyvas of Thay's alignment, because I didn't want to call him evil. However, there's no doubting that a person who is willing to hunt down and possibly kill other people for money alone with few questions asked is evil.... so I ultimately labeled him neutral evil, with lawful leanings.
On this same subject, one of the things I had a problem with in 3ed & 3.5e was the change to red wizards as in they had to actually enter the red wizard prestige class. I can understand from a governmental structure standpoint why they would want only red wizards who had previously served other red wizards as apprentices to be able to become members of the ruling caste, but Thayan wizards who are specialists can take tattoo focus and participate in circles as contributors without actually being a "red wizard". I understand why the prestige class was named as it was, my minor complaint is more of wanting a little more detail as to when you can wear the red.
In previous editions (both 1st edition and 2nd edition), there were different variations of the red wizards who "specialized" in more than one school(in 1st edition, they were noted as having "mastered" multiple schools of magic since specialization wasn't invented yet). They were considered red wizards just like their extremely specialized counterparts. In 3rd edition, except for a few prestige classes, there's no way to become double specialized, so that particular issue doesn't come up. However, if someone were to become a eldritch knight or arcane trickster or Loremaster, or some other prestige class which continues to raise your arcane skill AND they are also a specialist for a certain school of magic, then I could see them being granted the ability to wear red.... it just might be a different variation of red. In this way, the Zulkirs and red wizards have a lesser caste of "red wizards" who may be extremely powerful but are still subservient to those members of the red wizard prestige class. However, these mages are allowed to pursue their own path (which Thay was founded on freedom in research), and they'd also have a slightly higher rank than everyone else. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 19 Apr 2012 : 13:06:11
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
EDIT: As for your comparison, Dennis, to that story you read - have you read Michael Moorcock's Elric novels? Elric was born the emperor of just such a cruel empire of powerful magic-users, but inside, he did not think like them - he acted the way others expected him to. When he did not act that way, it was a sign of weakness, and eventually lead to his downfall (and later, the downfall of his empire).
However, even they were smart-enough to not waste slaves willy-nilly - they are a resource, and only an idiot wastes resources. Besides, they enjoyed punishing them much more then killing them (and the Melnibonéans make the Red Wizards look like rank amateurs when it comes to cruelty - their society is similar to that of the Drow).
Not yet.
Most Sachakans do not waste their slaves. They are classified into pleasure, common, and source. The first two are obvious. The last is the type of slave that an ashaki (magician-lord) regularly draws magic from. |
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