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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Apr 2012 : 04:37:36
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I’m reading The Magician’s Apprentice by Trudi Canavan, and I can’t help but compare Sachaka to Thay. Sachaka is a magocracy where most of the ashaki or magician-lords are as cruel as the Red Wizards and where slavery is commonplace. Slaves are easily replaceable. Magicians kill them almost at a daily basis, either for some mistakes (whether grave or trivial) the poor slaves make, or simply for the sake of ‘twisted fun.’ However, not all magicians are as cold-hearted. Some of them are just forced to appear cruel because they’re bound by tradition that span centuries…
Are there Red Wizards of Thay who are like the latter? Do some of them feel they need to keep a ‘tough image’ for fear of being cast out?
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Every beginning has an end. |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2012 : 13:32:51
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Well Brightwing always commented that Aoth was not made a Red Wizard because he was to soft.
Also there was that female red wizard who was a companion of Raidon Kane, i forget the name since its been a while.
She was certainly no paladin but was loyal to her friends and comrades. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2012 : 16:07:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
Also there was that female red wizard who was a companion of Raidon Kane, i forget the name since its been a while.
She was certainly no paladin but was loyal to her friends and comrades.
Loyalty is not based on alignment... Manshoon cried when his lover was slain, and tried to avenge her -- and we know he's not the type to help little old ladies cross the street. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3736 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2012 : 19:21:45
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| -I'm sure there are plenty. Especially among the more opportunistic, money-oriented Red Wizards. Like the Zhents are their money making, black market operations, there are presumably plenty of Red Wizards who are more in things because of opportunity (money) or happenstance (happened to be born in Thay with magical aptitude) than maliciousness and evil. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerûn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerûn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2012 : 20:05:49
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| I've always enjoyed Thay, and I must say that the classic example always presented of the ambitious beyond belief red wizard was not how I ran my games. Its my belief that the majority of the red wizards ARE evil, but its only a slight majority, not an overwhelming one. There are a lot of lawful neutral red wizards who simply believe in their core countries concepts: don't let religion overrule magical research, empower the country through control of magic (through such things as controlling weather to improve crops, enclaves, etc...), and improve the military might of the country for defense. The researchers faction in particular held a lot of these individuals. There are also a lot of chaotic neutral red wizards who simply want to study magic and be left alone. The griffin legion as originally developed was specifically red wizards who rode griffins. That got changed with the creation of Aoth, as the griffin legion suddenly included more NON-casters than casters. I hold that there were at least two different griffin legions now, because I do like what they did with Aoth. My view of the "other" griffin legion was that it was filled with more Chaotic Neutral wizards & other spellcasters (most of whom were actually red wizards), but this group of red wizards were more inclined to explore the martial side of spellcasting. These other griffin legionnaires were more loners who liked to depend upon themselves and weren't likely to have a circle of apprentices to draw upon, but it would also include those red wizards who built small fortresses in the nearby mountains and trained their apprentices in this remoteness so as not to be drawn into the political cloak and dagger that rules Thayan cities. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2012 : 01:31:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
Well Brightwing always commented that Aoth was not made a Red Wizard because he was to soft.
Also there was that female red wizard who was a companion of Raidon Kane, i forget the name since its been a while.
She was certainly no paladin but was loyal to her friends and comrades.
Other than that, Aoth was looked down by most Red Wizards because of his Rashemi looks.
As for Kane's friend. Do you mean Seren? I don't recall any mention that she's a Red Wizard. Perhaps you mean someone that appeared in books 2 and 3? I only read the first. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2012 : 01:35:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
Also there was that female red wizard who was a companion of Raidon Kane, i forget the name since its been a while.
She was certainly no paladin but was loyal to her friends and comrades.
Loyalty is not based on alignment...
Indeed. Brennus was loyal to his mother more than anyone and anything else in the world, cried upon death, and promised to avenge her one day... But it's a mistake to call him 'good.' |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2012 : 01:42:16
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I've always enjoyed Thay, and I must say that the classic example always presented of the ambitious beyond belief red wizard was not how I ran my games. Its my belief that the majority of the red wizards ARE evil, but its only a slight majority, not an overwhelming one. There are a lot of lawful neutral red wizards who simply believe in their core countries concepts: don't let religion overrule magical research, empower the country through control of magic (through such things as controlling weather to improve crops, enclaves, etc...), and improve the military might of the country for defense. The researchers faction in particular held a lot of these individuals. There are also a lot of chaotic neutral red wizards who simply want to study magic and be left alone. The griffin legion as originally developed was specifically red wizards who rode griffins. That got changed with the creation of Aoth, as the griffin legion suddenly included more NON-casters than casters. I hold that there were at least two different griffin legions now, because I do like what they did with Aoth. My view of the "other" griffin legion was that it was filled with more Chaotic Neutral wizards & other spellcasters (most of whom were actually red wizards), but this group of red wizards were more inclined to explore the martial side of spellcasting. These other griffin legionnaires were more loners who liked to depend upon themselves and weren't likely to have a circle of apprentices to draw upon, but it would also include those red wizards who built small fortresses in the nearby mountains and trained their apprentices in this remoteness so as not to be drawn into the political cloak and dagger that rules Thayan cities.
It just makes sense that griffin riders should be spellcasters. However, the change must have been due to the Red Wizards' realization that although they would be quite formidable in flight, they would be obvious targets as well. Less and less of them must have seen the risks not worth it. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 15 Apr 2012 02:28:19 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2012 : 02:25:12
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I would say that in the lands of Thay, only the most successful Red Wizards are probably Evil...as opposed to Neutral alignments.
I say this because the drive to crush anyone in front of you is a primarily evil tenent.
I have used an NPC Red Wizard who travelled in the Dales who was Lawful Neutral, and was a fine one to do so because he was capable of passing under the nose of Paladins. He liked being outside Thay because he had fewer enemies! |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2012 : 10:40:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
Well Brightwing always commented that Aoth was not made a Red Wizard because he was to soft.
Also there was that female red wizard who was a companion of Raidon Kane, i forget the name since its been a while.
She was certainly no paladin but was loyal to her friends and comrades.
Other than that, Aoth was looked down by most Red Wizards because of his Rashemi looks.
As for Kane's friend. Do you mean Seren? I don't recall any mention that she's a Red Wizard. Perhaps you mean someone that appeared in books 2 and 3? I only read the first.
Yeah its Seren. Its only revealed that she was a red wizard in book two. Apparently she was in hiding cause there is a bounty on her head.
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2012 : 10:44:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
Also there was that female red wizard who was a companion of Raidon Kane, i forget the name since its been a while.
She was certainly no paladin but was loyal to her friends and comrades.
Loyalty is not based on alignment... Manshoon cried when his lover was slain, and tried to avenge her -- and we know he's not the type to help little old ladies cross the street.
Well it can be argued that that is not true loyalty . Sure he tried to avenge her but would he have scarified himself to save her? Nahh.
In the case of Seren she did risk her own life for her friends sake and confronted horrific evil. Certainly she had that typical Red wizard arrogance and selfishness that I got the feeling that was more a product of her upbringing rather than an intrinsic part of her nature. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2012 : 16:31:10
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I created a neutral one for one of my campaigns - I had reasoned that's as close to 'good' as you could possibly get in Thay, without getting killed pretty damn fast. A certain amount of 'worldliness' (street smarts) has to be learned, and earned, and 'goodly folk' usually don't last long in those situations. Self-preservation is key, and you have to be at least semi-selfish for that (in other words, putting yourself before others).
In fact he (my NPC) was handsome, charming, and even had a full head of hair (which he was very proud of). Unlike many other Thayan Agents, he was smart-enough to realize the bald-head was a dead give-away, and those he answered to allowed him his 'eccentricities' (from a Thayan perspective) because he got results, and operated openly in areas where others could not (he traded up-and-down The DragonReach).
I don't know of any canon ones, and like I said, I doubt their could be - they wouldn't last.
EDIT: As for your comparison, Dennis, to that story you read - have you read Michael Moorcock's Elric novels? Elric was born the emperor of just such a cruel empire of powerful magic-users, but inside, he did not think like them - he acted the way others expected him to. When he did not act that way, it was a sign of weakness, and eventually lead to his downfall (and later, the downfall of his empire).
However, even they were smart-enough to not waste slaves willy-nilly - they are a resource, and only an idiot wastes resources. Besides, they enjoyed punishing them much more then killing them (and the Melnibonéans make the Red Wizards look like rank amateurs when it comes to cruelty - their society is similar to that of the Drow). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 15 Apr 2012 21:25:06 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2012 : 17:02:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
Also there was that female red wizard who was a companion of Raidon Kane, i forget the name since its been a while.
She was certainly no paladin but was loyal to her friends and comrades.
Loyalty is not based on alignment... Manshoon cried when his lover was slain, and tried to avenge her -- and we know he's not the type to help little old ladies cross the street.
Well it can be argued that that is not true loyalty . Sure he tried to avenge her but would he have scarified himself to save her? Nahh.
And by what method do you determine this? Manshoon sacrifices himself to get a younger body -- surely he'd do that and more to save his lover. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2012 : 01:51:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
Also there was that female red wizard who was a companion of Raidon Kane, i forget the name since its been a while.
She was certainly no paladin but was loyal to her friends and comrades.
Loyalty is not based on alignment... Manshoon cried when his lover was slain, and tried to avenge her -- and we know he's not the type to help little old ladies cross the street.
Well it can be argued that that is not true loyalty . Sure he tried to avenge her but would he have scarified himself to save her? Nahh.
And by what method do you determine this? Manshoon sacrifices himself to get a younger body -- surely he'd do that and more to save his lover.
Aye. Manshoon's desires for both loyalty and love have ever been fickle. When he has something other than the pursuit of power on his mind, his motives can be almost unfathomable. |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2012 : 02:37:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Are there Red Wizards of Thay who are like the latter? Do some of them feel they need to keep a ‘tough image’ for fear of being cast out?
Oh I would for certain think so. Absolutely.
Not as rare as someone like Drizzt, say, but very much there in small numbers. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Darsson Spellmaker
Seeker
56 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2012 : 05:20:35
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In the FRCS, I recall that the example Red Wizard, Khalia, whose job it is to act as a diplomat to other countries with regards to acquiring permission for magic item enclaves to be built, was lawful neutral in alignment and her description stated that she's gentle and noncombative, restrained and trustworthy.
The book also mentions a Thayan Enclave whose wizards are all neutral and law-abiding, so much so that even the Harpers treat them with a measure of forebearance. I forget what city that enclave was based in.
In personal experience, I once played a Red Wizard transmuter who was neutral and genuinely grew to like and care for his party; he'd left Thay because he was tired of all the killing in self-defense he'd had to do, and all the assassination attempts he'd had to avoid. He thought it was a miracle to be among people who not only shared his passion for magic, they willingly shared spells with him and never tried to steal from him or stab him in his sleep. He was only too happy to support the party with buffs, protections, etc, which worked out great for all involved. |
"Know, O mages, that there is learning, and there is wisdom, and they are very far from being the same thing."--Azuth the High One, Utterances from the Altar: Collected Verbal Manifestations of the Divine and Most Holy Lord of Spells (holy chapbook, assembled by anonymous priests of Azuth circa 1358 DR)
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1265 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2012 : 18:46:50
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| In the Simbul's Gift, tone of the Zulkirs (of Enchantment) who was definitely not evil. The Simbul even sort of grew to not hate him if that is possible for her and a Red Wizard. He had a family and treated his servants kindly, and I think he even kept his real job as Zulkir from his children? Gah..wish I could remember more but I'm at work and my books are at home. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2012 : 20:33:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
In the Simbul's Gift, tone of the Zulkirs (of Enchantment) who was definitely not evil. The Simbul even sort of grew to not hate him if that is possible for her and a Red Wizard. He had a family and treated his servants kindly, and I think he even kept his real job as Zulkir from his children? Gah..wish I could remember more but I'm at work and my books are at home.
Lauzoril. Always was my favorite Zulkir. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Ingbur
Acolyte
Mexico
1 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2012 : 07:03:21
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| I am sure Edwin will come around eventually |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2012 : 09:43:03
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| Safiya (NWN2 MotB) is Lawful Neutral, IIRC. That is, I'm not sure about the Lawful part, but she's certainly not evil. |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2012 : 12:58:22
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
In the Simbul's Gift, tone of the Zulkirs (of Enchantment) who was definitely not evil. The Simbul even sort of grew to not hate him if that is possible for her and a Red Wizard. He had a family and treated his servants kindly, and I think he even kept his real job as Zulkir from his children? Gah..wish I could remember more but I'm at work and my books are at home.
Lauzoril. Always was my favorite Zulkir.
He has a 'soft' or romantic side, as almost all gifted Enchanters do. But he's definitely evil. That's how he's portrayed in The Haunted Lands, a little bit close to neutral, but not to good.
I was thinking of Samas Kul, because compared to his equals, murder/cruelty is near to last on his list. However, he enjoys food (money, women, wine) far too much. And I realized avarice is not a virtue. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2012 : 13:06:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
EDIT: As for your comparison, Dennis, to that story you read - have you read Michael Moorcock's Elric novels? Elric was born the emperor of just such a cruel empire of powerful magic-users, but inside, he did not think like them - he acted the way others expected him to. When he did not act that way, it was a sign of weakness, and eventually lead to his downfall (and later, the downfall of his empire).
However, even they were smart-enough to not waste slaves willy-nilly - they are a resource, and only an idiot wastes resources. Besides, they enjoyed punishing them much more then killing them (and the Melnibonéans make the Red Wizards look like rank amateurs when it comes to cruelty - their society is similar to that of the Drow).
Not yet.
Most Sachakans do not waste their slaves. They are classified into pleasure, common, and source. The first two are obvious. The last is the type of slave that an ashaki (magician-lord) regularly draws magic from. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2012 : 15:29:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
In the Simbul's Gift, tone of the Zulkirs (of Enchantment) who was definitely not evil. The Simbul even sort of grew to not hate him if that is possible for her and a Red Wizard. He had a family and treated his servants kindly, and I think he even kept his real job as Zulkir from his children? Gah..wish I could remember more but I'm at work and my books are at home.
Lauzoril. Always was my favorite Zulkir.
He has a 'soft' or romantic side, as almost all gifted Enchanters do. But he's definitely evil. That's how he's portrayed in The Haunted Lands, a little bit close to neutral, but not to good.
I was thinking of Samas Kul, because compared to his equals, murder/cruelty is near to last on his list. However, he enjoys food (money, women, wine) far too much. And I realized avarice is not a virtue.
Oh, yeah, Lauzoril is definitely evil, but he's definitely loyal to Thay at the same time. I did like his portrayal in the Simbul's Gift though, as did Seravin, because it showed him as a softer side of evil. Just because someone's evil doesn't mean they're totally bad. It might just mean they're more self centered or ambitious than is probably healthy. My favorite are the kind that have a moral compass that they try to follow (but of course, we all like a tragic or anti-hero).
Its actually something I've minorly struggled with when it comes to determining Sleyvas of Thay's alignment, because I didn't want to call him evil. However, there's no doubting that a person who is willing to hunt down and possibly kill other people for money alone with few questions asked is evil.... so I ultimately labeled him neutral evil, with lawful leanings.
On this same subject, one of the things I had a problem with in 3ed & 3.5e was the change to red wizards as in they had to actually enter the red wizard prestige class. I can understand from a governmental structure standpoint why they would want only red wizards who had previously served other red wizards as apprentices to be able to become members of the ruling caste, but Thayan wizards who are specialists can take tattoo focus and participate in circles as contributors without actually being a "red wizard". I understand why the prestige class was named as it was, my minor complaint is more of wanting a little more detail as to when you can wear the red.
In previous editions (both 1st edition and 2nd edition), there were different variations of the red wizards who "specialized" in more than one school(in 1st edition, they were noted as having "mastered" multiple schools of magic since specialization wasn't invented yet). They were considered red wizards just like their extremely specialized counterparts. In 3rd edition, except for a few prestige classes, there's no way to become double specialized, so that particular issue doesn't come up. However, if someone were to become a eldritch knight or arcane trickster or Loremaster, or some other prestige class which continues to raise your arcane skill AND they are also a specialist for a certain school of magic, then I could see them being granted the ability to wear red.... it just might be a different variation of red. In this way, the Zulkirs and red wizards have a lesser caste of "red wizards" who may be extremely powerful but are still subservient to those members of the red wizard prestige class. However, these mages are allowed to pursue their own path (which Thay was founded on freedom in research), and they'd also have a slightly higher rank than everyone else. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2012 : 16:03:27
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Just a little side note. Carring for, being nice to, loving or being loyal to someone or a group doesn't make you not evil.
Making you not evil is not performing evil acts. |
Edited by - _Jarlaxle_ on 19 Apr 2012 16:04:02 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2012 : 16:20:23
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Beyond the examples given here about "Evil" characters...we have to think of Evil as a concept that can be defined by others instead of the individual thought of as being evil.
Not every person in the Forgotten Realms who IS evil THINKS they are evil! A Paladin might detect a street thug as evil...but many such thugs might go home at night after having beaten the daylights out of someone and taken their money to give it to their ailing mother who needs the money for a potion to make her well. That same man, who has his sick mother living with him, may also be married (and madly in love with) a young woman who has just gave birth to a child who the man also adores and loves.
The "Thug" may in fact be a respected member of his own neighborhood who gives copper coins to little kids to by bread for their family, he may chop wood for the elderly and shovel snow in the winter for his neighbors...but when there is need...
He crouches in the shadows of an alley waiting for some "rich snob" to stagger drunkenly by, and then leap out to club them over the head with the leg of a stool and rob them blind of everything they carry.
Has he done evil, yes...and that once in a while action defines him as evil in the eyes of the adventurers when they see him do it...and it may cost him his life...sadly so; because so many "good" people will suffer without the help of this "evil man" it would seem.
The "game" we play must of course usually eliminate such blending of what is right and wrong so that we can enjoy our game...but in my games, I don't negate such facets because I think that it is far more enjoyable to work through the intricate nature of what is Good and Evil. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2012 : 22:03:16
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We have different 'standards' in deeming one as evil or not. But one doesn't have to look at a common Red Wizard and think twice about his 'evilness.' Lust for power, thinking and behaving your race is far superior than others, treating slaves (people) as objects, killing (non-slave) innocent people at a whim, backstabbing allies, and obsessive greed for wealth---these are common traits of a Red Wizard of Thay. Surely you don't think they're good qualities? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2012 : 23:19:23
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I agree...in a game it is evil to pick what is evil...but lets look at something here.
You have an influential aristocrat who is both a freedom fighter from an old empire...yet he owns slaves and thinks nothing of doing so; though he does arrange for them to be freed when he is no longer alive. Not exactly a self-sacrificing type as he doesn't want to lose his wealthy status though he is fighting for the Freedom of his fellow slave owning and land owning elite aristocratic friends.
Now that definition can apply to two different people:
A Red Wizard fighting against Mulhorand...
Or George Washington.
You decide... |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2012 : 23:50:04
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Fighting for freedom is hardly a good act.
The phaerimm used to fight for freedom from their centuries-old imprisonment in the Sharnwall. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2012 : 00:07:04
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That is exactly my point...but how do many see George Washington?
D&D has a good idea in having a clear cut good vs. evil & chaos vs. law; but it only goes so far. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2012 : 18:05:17
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How do we know George Washington wasn't an exiled Red Wizard?
Probably why he hated 'Red Coats' so much. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 Apr 2012 18:05:57 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2012 : 20:29:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
How do we know George Washington wasn't an exiled Red Wizard?
Probably why he hated 'Red Coats' so much.
Only you Markustay...only you! |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Are there “good” (non-evil) Red Wizards?
