| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Icelander |
Posted - 07 Feb 2012 : 02:13:12
I'm aware that Chult is inhabited by elephants, most likely something similar to what we would call African elephants, though the African (bush) elephant proper is found on savannahs, not in jungles. In the jungles, there might be some equivalent to the African forest elephant instead, though.
Where else can elephants be found in the Realms? Are there any living near where the loxo live, on the Shaar, for example?
Is there any equivalent to the Indian elephant in the Realms? If so, where can they be found? What is their place in society? Is it used for labour or warfare?
Any scribe well-versed in the Kara-Turan setting ought to be able to remember something about elephants in the countries that are analoguous to real world Bhutan, the Malay and so forth. I'll try to find it myself, but it would be awesome if wiser scribes had some lore for me.
What about the extinct-in-our-world North African elephant? Those are the famous war elephants of Hannibal and are distinguished from African bush elephants by being tamable. Can these be found anywhere in the Realms?
Does any culture use war elephants in the Realms?
What about ivory? How is it gathered? Are elephants frequently hunted for it? Is it sought after?
What about other famous animals? Where can one find lions in the Realms? What about tigers?
Real world climate is often little help, as the Realms seem to have a tendency to place torrid tropical countries due north from more temperate places (Unther is north of Luiren, for example). This is no doubt explained by magic, divine or arcane, in many cases.
What animals could one expect to encounter in the Methwood in Unther, for example? Are there big cats? Or what sort?
What kind of animals would decadent Gilgeam have pitted against unfortunate slaves in his arenas? What would the crowd consider commonplace, if dangerous, and what would be exotic and exciting?
Is a tiger an amazing sight in the Vilhon Reach, more surprising than seeing a monster like an owlbear or leucrotta, or is it something that everyone knows what is because it can be found somewhere nearby?
What about lions? These appear to be found in the Gulthmere forest. That's fairly northerly, surely, not more than 200 miles or so from Cormyr, which appears to be a temperate land. Where do these lions come from? Maybe they're there because of divine magic, which is more than good enough for me, but where else can one find lions?
The Shaar? Are there lions there? What other impressive* animals are to be found on the Shaar?
*To arena managers, for one. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Icelander |
Posted - 18 Mar 2012 : 01:18:25
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
Here's a theory: that particular advanced, horse riding, draco-human civilization migrated off Toril in its entirety leaving little to no trace of its existence.
*Sigh*
Unfortunately, Mr. Byers also included a description of this civilisation's fall, which unfortunately happened to take place in such a way that it seemed exceedingly likely that at least some of the horses and grains would make their way to other groups of humans, who would then found civilisations of their own.
I think that I will postulate that:
a) This particular dragonic civilisation was extremely atypical. Being ruled by a laissez-faire gold dragon whose opinion of the value of humans and elves was much more positive than that of other dragons, the 'lesser mortals' in it were freer, wealthier and more educated than those of nearly any other dragonic realm.
b) Domisticated horses in dragonic realms are bred and selected for their ability to smell dragons and not go wild with fear. This did not prove to be a survival trait once the dragons lost their kingdoms and became roving predators. In the years after the falls of dragon realms, stocks of domesticated animals that had been kept there were usually hunted to extinction by surviving dragons and rivals from other realms.
c) Because dragons don't hunt grains and no conceivable collapse of civilisation could prevent people from harvesting seeds from high-yield grain species a few generations later, the grains are actually most problematic here. I am actually, for my campaign at least, going to go with elven rebels against dragons unleashing a blight that affected the acriculture of the dragon-run realms but did not touch their silviculture-based lifestyle. |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 16 Mar 2012 : 22:34:12
I like where your version of draconic influenced human culture is going, particularly the description you imagined for the stratification of human societies under draconic rule with dragons hoarding technologies that benefit themselves and not their human slaves...
Here's a theory: that particular advanced, horse riding, draco-human civilization migrated off Toril in its entirety leaving little to no trace of its existence.
The realms has had numerous interlopers from other worlds influence its cultures. This time though, it was the other way around. An 'Atlantis-like' disappearance could have transpired, complete with a cataclysm that left them with no other choice than to take all their acquired capital with them. The reason for their departure could have been a myriad of things, ranging from a rival dragon declaring war to a cataclysmic volcanic eruption.
With the lore from Abeir a new possibility could be that that particular draco-human civilization was phase shifted wholesale onto Abeir, like what happened to Unther, Maztica and Mulhorand during the Spellplague. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 16 Mar 2012 : 20:56:06
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
This seems like a real problem then. Fantasy human culture seems to rise and fall to and from total barbarism into high magic societies on a dime in FR. It is a common theme across the known lore. I guess the meddling of the gods are to be the expected answer for the problems; -again-. *sighs*
I'd preferably ignore the date that Byers story seems to have and write it up as being a date postulated by an unreliable narrator.
I've been in the position of defendning the rise and fall of cultures as plausible and realistic.
As it is. Human capital, as in learned skills, are extremely vulnerable to societal upheaval. It is comparatively easy to lose all knowledge of metalcraft or magic, even if once possessed in abundance, as soon as the necessary economic surplus to specialise so extensively is gone.
The problem lies in those elements of technological achievement likely to outlive the collapse, such as species of domesticated flora and fauna. The presence of these elements, in real history, determined whether human civilisation developed any other form of food production than hunting and gathering.
The way I imagined dragonic societies was that the majority of technology, if any, was in dragonic hands and that without dragonic assistance humans would find it hard to rebuild society on any similar lines. I would have proposed the use of wild plant species for food, but not laboriously shaped by selective breeding by millenia of human effort, but instead magically altered to grow when regularly exposed to dragonic waste.
Use of domesticated animals I did not foresee, as I thought herd animals would be kept corralled off for dragonic consumption and that there was no need nor opportunity to breed them to be good beasts of burden or mounts. If anything, I would have proposed tamed Thunderers rather than horses.
These were supposed to be different societies, not merely modern Faerun with the top couple of ranks replaced by dragons* and otherwise identical. If a dragon came across human hunter-gatherers, why would it bother to come up with a civilisation perfectly suited for these creatures instead of developing a civilisation that suited him perfectly?
Canonically, I'm not sure I can call the story the work of an unreliable narrator. There's no framing device and there's simply an omniscient narrator relating the story. I would like to explain this as the same literary trope as when Shakespeare puts clocks in Ancient Rome and medieval artists had Judas Maccabeus and his men in mail and plate harness and riding destriers. If only the author had framed his short story with an in-universe narrator or writer.
*Let alone dragons wearing humanoid shape most of the time. |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 16 Mar 2012 : 18:56:58
This seems like a real problem then. Fantasy human culture seems to rise and fall to and from total barbarism into high magic societies on a dime in FR. It is a common theme across the known lore. I guess the meddling of the gods are to be the expected answer for the problems; -again-. *sighs*
I'd preferably ignore the date that Byers story seems to have and write it up as being a date postulated by an unreliable narrator. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 16 Mar 2012 : 17:59:40
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
But did that Byers story show humans riding horses, with all the technology and breeding stock that's needed for mustering cavalry type armies? I gathered it only shows elves doing that. Just like the tech for building a H-bomb is jealously guarded, perhaps using a stirrup was guarded likewise. I agree its nearly unfathomable that that secret would remain so for thousands of years though.
Human cavalry, with 'great warhorses' that were much larger than common riding horses. While stirrups were not mentioned explicitly, their tactical role and feats of riding would have demanded them, unless we instead postulate that the nameless human soldiers who die by the dozen all happened to be world-class equestrian acrobats.
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
Perhaps the horse breed with which elves worked (the highly intelligent moon horse) was the obstacle. This horse breed doesn't allow anyone on its back without consensus. The later interbreeding with feral horses might have led to 'modern' horse breeds that are more docile and allow humanoids on their backs.
Oh, how I wish only elves had ridden horses! That was what I had originally planned to do, with any inconvenient early mentions of cavalry among the elves.
Unfortunately, this book has all the human rank-and-file using horses, it seems.
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
Regarding the agricultural revolutions needed for sustaining human kingdoms, perhaps we need to look at the state of human evolution itself. Early human populations have been described as being very barbaric, nearly ape-like. Perhaps this points to the humans being in the evolutionary state of the homo erectus during the long period of time when the dwarves and elves ruled Fearuns surface.
I would prefer to avoid that.
One, the homo erectus is exceedingly unlikely to be a stage in the development of the single human species alive today.
Two, the divergence point from any previous ancenstor* and anatomically modern humans was at least 400,000 years ago. While we could theoretically throw up our hands and say 'evolution went differently', at that point, we might as well abandon the idea that any living being on Toril evolved at all. While evolution does not proceed exclusively by means of tiny changes over millions of years, being characterised instead by sudden bursts of speciation and then the die-off of most of the new species with a couple, one or none surviving, it would still play havoc with my suspension of disbelief to have anatomically modern humans emerge fully formed from primitive ancestors a mere thirty millenia ago.
Three, there are humns in the story and they are educated, professional people with a status no lower than elves. Indeed, the rivalry between a human archmage and an elven one is a key plotpoint. Humans capable of being knights in a combined force of air cavalry, cavalry, magical assault, infiltrators, etc. using intelligence and communications equivalent to 1960s real world are not going to be homo erectus. They make songs and poems, plot complicated strategies, perform diplomacy for their dragonic masters, etc.
The more I examine this story, the less it becomes clear to me how the author imagined that the elves who lived in these societies managed to move straight into high civilisation but the humans, until then equal to them, somehow collapsed into 20,000 years of ignorance.
*Which would still have been extremely different from the homo erectus. |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 16 Mar 2012 : 17:45:15
But did that Byers story show humans riding horses, with all the technology and breeding stock that's needed for mustering cavalry type armies? I gathered it only shows elves doing that. Just like the tech for building a H-bomb is jealously guarded, perhaps using a stirrup was guarded likewise. I agree its nearly unfathomable that that secret would remain so for thousands of years though.
Perhaps the horse breed with which elves worked (the highly intelligent moon horse) was the obstacle. This horse breed doesn't allow anyone on its back without consensus. The later interbreeding with feral horses might have led to 'modern' horse breeds that are more docile and allow humanoids on their backs.
Regarding the agricultural revolutions needed for sustaining human kingdoms, perhaps we need to look at the state of human evolution itself. Early human populations have been described as being very barbaric, nearly ape-like. Perhaps this points to the humans being in the evolutionary state of the homo erectus during the long period of time when the dwarves and elves ruled Fearuns surface. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 16 Mar 2012 : 17:07:37
I agree with most of it, but if the horse were not used for labour, travel and war, why should it be revered?
Searching my memory, I cannot recall a single culture where horses were a large part of shamanistic practices without also being a central elements of their lives.
Indeed, the forefathers of domestic horses rely on defensive strategies which in their very combative and cooperative nature prove disastrous against intelligent predators. The reactions of a herd of horses can be predicted by experienced hunters, much more easily than the reactions of fleeter and less pugnacious herd herbivores who scatter and run.
Considerable evidence suggests that in those areas where men did not domesticate the horse, man quickly exterminated it. Not that it was ever the main prey animal of any human culture known so far, but that unlike other prey animals, the horses tended to die en masse when hunted with intelligence.
The process with which a people may move from following herds of prey animals to guiding their migrations to driving them to domesticating them is well known. The more I learn about the history of technology, the less I give credence to 'it just didn't occur to anyone'. In the short term, of decades, even of centuries, cultural barriers loom large.
But in the long term, no culture is stable, whereas incentives to adopt a certain technology remain as long as the conditions that make it effective don't change. No culture ever resisted a techology for many thousands of years out of ignorance or cultural prejudice. When observed more closely, there was always an obstacle to its adoption that had previously been overlooked, whether economic or ecological.
In a few centuries after being freed of dragonic domination, the primary influences on the culture of the humans in question will not have anything to do with shadowy myths and legends passed on by elders. It will be driven by their environment, their available resources, their neighbours and by that complicit emergent process of multiple minds influencing and being influenced by each other simultaneously.
In other words, a thousand small groups of people will develop into a thousand different cultures. It is beyond implausible to apply the same cultural memeplex to all of them to explain a pause of ca 20,000 years in their development.
Accident determines a lot in history. Great men may count as one of these accidents. But accidents determine things like when, where and how, with certain broad strokes of prediction being possible when the conditions are analysed.
If there are suitable crops to be found and the climate allows it, at least one group of humans will start to use these crops, most likely by returning periodically to a place where they grow wild. Over time, they will begin to take care of the places it grows wild, spread seeds over larger areas and eventually, if the yield from their labours is more than they get by hunting and gathering, settle down and farm.
This isn't so much a decision to change lifestyles as it is the natural consequence of being always on the lookout for the next meal and having a lifetime of experience and education to know which methods of gathering it work best.
Acriculture was not so much discovered as it grew out of tens of thousands of years of humans taking good care of wild plants that they liked to eat and which rewarded effort spent on them and returning to places they grew. As the plants evolved to spread their seed through humans, they acquired characteristics favoured by humans, through selective breeding, unconscious as it may have been at first.*
By the time the low-yield wild grains and legumes found in the wild had become closer to what we know as foodstuffs, it had become economical to settle down to farm. And about as soon as that happened, humans all over Eurasia did so. In a mere two millenia, the same grains had spread from the Middle East to Britain on one side and the Pacific on the other.
Horses spread even more quickly. The first conclusive evidence of their domestication for riding is a mere few centuries before they had spread 8,000 miles and reached almost everywhere.
It wasn't a case of a brilliant primitive man suddenly seeing a valuable grain or a useful animal and doing what no other man had done. Before the long, slow process of selective breeding started, there weren't any grains suited for acriculture or horses strong enough to carry men, docile enough to be tamed, yet possessing the strange mix of characteristics allowing them to be trained for war.
The primitive men didn't need thousands of years to come up with an idea. The idea may have come a long time before the reality. In any case, as soon as it was practical, it became widespread so fast that it looks like pretty much any culture had people who needed only to obtain some of the new seeds or a domesticated colt or two and they were launched on their way.
In some ways, domesticated grain species and horses may not last well through a total collapse of civilisations. Yet as long as some humans survive, gathering up some grains and horses some years after the collapse would do. Hell, even if everyone died, just finding them centuries later would make the process of breeding them to be useful again a matter of decades, not millenia, for the grains. As for the horses, while feral horses may be harder to tame in some cases, their descendants are not necessarily so.
If I want it to make any kind of sense for humans on Faerun that far back to have had domesticated horses, being advanced enough so that they had highly specialised breeds, and acriculture at levels at least as high as modern Faerun**, but yet not rediscovered these for the next 20,000 years, I'll have to have every last trace of both horses and grains utterly destroyed by some foul magic. Which I really didn't want to do, because that's cheesy.
Without overly much fudging, the periodically enraged dragons, who even while calmer will find themselves suddenly bereft of subjects to bring them food, might hunt to extinction war horses and domesticated animals lacking the efficient survival mechanisms of 'natural' animals, having sacrificed some of them for characteristics considered more desirable by humans. But why would the dragons want to destroy all grains or even have the patience for such a task?
Granted, the elves of the period might well reason that even with the King-Killer Star, some dragons maintain their realms and their subjects. And that, as noted in 'Traitors', tilled fields with cultivated grain bring more food for the King's people than even the most lovingly tended forest.
I suppose it has been established well enough that elves, throughout most of their history, have not really considered other intelligent species to be people or worthy of life, so I can see them reasonining that as grain allows dragon kings to feed more soldiers at the cost of cutting their beloved forests, a blight that strikes only 'unnatural' grains is justified. Besides, it doesn't really harm any People, so it's okay.
*You eat and take away to eat, those fruits and grains that you like. The others you leave to wither on the stalk.
**They apparently grew species of flowers with fairly advanced selective breeding, much like modern rose breeders. |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 16 Mar 2012 : 16:31:17
I always attributed the "religious doctrine" of shaman to stifling or curbing the advancement of "high civilization" of early Torilian humans. The horse might have been revered by early human shamanistic tribes so much that they feared going anywhere near the beasts. I think this behavior can still be seen in the goblinoid and orcish races, who are rarely depicted as riding on horseback partly because of superstition (and the difficulty of rearing horses in their habitat).
I also see the early human tribes, who'd been freed from their dragon overlords by dwarves or elves, following the advise of their liberators quite closely for a very long time. This would make for a human civilization that emphasized a conservative approach to settling and colonization. Combined with early druidic tradition this could have had a strong influence in tribal politics, governing the earlier tribes into approaching the land quite cautiously and with balance in mind first and foremost.
Those that were freed by dwarven clans or elven houses would have to accept the cultural dominance of their liberators first, and think about their own advancement much later, because competing with them would have been suicidal. The technological advantage of the demihumans meant that in order for the human tribes to spread and settle across Faerun successfully they'd better adopt dwarven smelting techniques and warfare discipline; learn about the stirrups for horse cavalry and advance the understanding of magic from their elven neighbours, etc. You can see that this is what happened in the GHotR. Not until the humans had the same tech as the other humanoid races did they make proper kingdoms for themselves.
I wonder though... Certain agricultural techniques (such as selective breeding) seems like a thing that could be seen as exclusively tied to humans. I don't see elves or dwarves inventing things like the plow or selective breeding techniques. Crop circulations, terraced hills and forest gardening I can see originating from elven cultures though, while irrigation (especially the carving of canals) and mushroom cultivation could have been a dwarven invention. I think a great number of agricultural foodstuffs from dwarven, elven, gnomish, halfling and goblinoid cultures have had a significant impact on the living standard of early human civilizations. This exchange could have led to significant changes in the way humans lived, influencing their economy, population distribution, local vegetation cover, agricultural production, population levels, urban growth, the distribution of the labour force, cooking and diet, clothing and eventually their chances of competing with the dominant demihuman races of the earlier times. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 15 Mar 2012 : 16:48:59
Damn it!
Richard Lee Byers' story "Traitors" from Realms of the Elves, set in -25,090 DR, has dedicated warhorses, indifferent nags apparently available to everyone and just generally a society with the exact same technology and economics as that of the 1360s or 1370s DR.
What a wasted opportunity for portraying a truly fantastic form of civilisation, not to mention was a colossal problem to anyone seeking to make sense of Faerun's history.
Civilisations can lose technologies after catastrophes, yes. But the century or millenia long process of selectively breeding wild plants and animals into species useful to farmers and other settled people isn't going to go away just because the civilisation fell.
There are still going to be plant species tailor made for growing and animals specifically bred to serve in a variety of roles, lending their strength to that of humans to make it possible to build a high civilisation.
Before it was established in canon that dragon realms of the distant past had managed to domesticate animals and plants to this extent, it was easy to explain why new human kingdoms didn't arise everywhere immediately after their fall. The selective breeding that makes wild grain species into something worth settling down for took several millenia in real history and moulding the small wild horses originally domesticated into something suitable for cavalry or long-distance travel took several more.
By the time this had been achieved, both grains and horses* spread with lightning speed east and west, penetrating pretty much anywhere not closed off completely by geography. To the south and north, though, grains couldn't spread as well because they were bred for a certain climate, which caused long delays at certain latitudes in real history. Diseases in certain latitudes stopped horses, as well.
Point is, there is a certain era in Faerun (and Toril) history where human civilisations start to crop up pretty much everywhere. The most plausible factor driving this, so far, seemed to be that acriculture was becoming possible with the spread of the new grain plants and that travel was becoming much easier with the spread of horses.
If both existed in perfectly modern form ca twenty millenia before this era, how do we explain the lack of human kingdoms vying with giant, elven and dwarven ones in the eras before?
*Along with the cultures that originated them, particularly in the case of the horse. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 26 Feb 2012 : 06:23:23
Well, sages, scholars, scribes and seekers.
Now for some really challenging stuff.
Can you cite for me all the canon mentions of horses or cavalry that date to a time period before 5,000 DR in the Realms? In fact, let's have all mentions that go back before -2,488 DR. Include any mention of centaurs older than this.
A direct statement, something that implies its existence or even artwork of cavalry.* I'm not asking any one individual to collate all of these, just that if someone is aware of a canon source that mentions horses or cavalry before it, please mention it.
My theory, provisionally at least, is that the Nar, Raumviri, Rashemi and Sossrim tribesmen who fought in the first Mulan war were cavalry. The distances are too far for it to make sense to hire them as mercenaries otherwise, and besides, what good is mercenary irregular infantry for battles on plains if you already have loyal and professional infantry of your own?
And I think that the Nar or at least some of those who later became the Nar travelled from fallen Imaskar to where Narfell is now on horses, making the first use of them that I can find in -2,460 DR.
I was worried that the Calishites might have had earlier cavalry, but given that they had chariots fighting alongside their cavalry in -212 DR**, cavalry almost has to have been recently introduced to that part of Faerun by then. Unless it was previously known in the area, but later lost.
I have theories aplenty, but I don't want them all thrown into chaos with a piece of canon I didn't recall.
Basically, though, I suspect that equids existed throughout Faerun and more places on Toril, but that they were mostly small. Donkeys, asses and feral horses that were more like ponies and would have confered only a small mobility advantage in warfare and almost none in battle.
The existence of a few exceptional mounts for elves or other extraordinary races would not invalidate my theory, but large scale elvish cavalry mounted on good terrestial horses would. But I don't recall that being a feature of the Crown Wars, not specifically mentioned. In fact, elves find the breaking of wild horses to serve as beasts of burden or mounts to be a barbaric practice and usually have mounts that are intelligent enough to assent to serving in that role. So, no normal horses.
Even so, if you recall elves or any other race riding before -2,488 DR, please inform me so I can investigate it more closely.
Mind you, I'm certain that Sarrukh rode Thunderers to war and I know that the Aeree rode wyrms, land and flying. I'm taling about horses or any supernatural relatives they might have.
*I don't plan to count artwork as canonical if it contradicts what the lore suggests or good sense, given how often artwork drawn for one thing is used for another. Still, I'd like to know about it.
**Chariots are in many ways a precursor technology to cavalry. They are used when the local warriors lack the skill to control horses and fight at the same time (which will be true for any culture where riding from childhood is not the norm until the invention of good saddles and stirrups, since it is so enormously difficult to fight on horseback without them) or the local horses are not large and strong enough to carry armoured warriors (true in much of the real world for a very long time). A culture might retain chariots as an arm of war for a short time after cavalry is technologically and sociologically possible, but if it fights any serious foe with cavalry, its chariots will quickly vanish from the battlefield. Survival of chariots for generations after experiencing real cavalry implies total isolation from foes with the possibility of fielding real cavalry or a period of stylised and ritualised warfare where the clash of named heroes is the whole point and there is no serious attempt to target the other side's weaknesses, i.e. not really warfare, but large-scale duels and lethal sporting events. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 23 Feb 2012 : 18:48:03
My responses will be in my other thread - I don't want to distract from Icelander's intended purpose for this one.  |
| Icelander |
Posted - 23 Feb 2012 : 17:11:45
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Off the top of my head... giraffes are said to populate the jungles of Chult in significant numbers.
Very good.
This suggests either that the verdant green and leafy parts on the GHotR p. 6 may be interpreted as any of the seperate biomes of rain forest jungle, more open forest/woodland or perhaps even grassy woodlands or that significant parts ecological change took part before the Sundering on the Katashaka-Chult subcontinent of Merrobouros and that shrublands and savannahs developed there in at least some of the areas that were later to become Chult or lie adjacent to them. At some point before the Sundering, therefore, Toril was probably less warm than it is in the modern age, or some other factor acted to disturb the familiar mechanisms of equatorial rainfall.
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
The Ol' Grey Box makes references to Suzailian craftsmen working with ivory taken from mammoths. Giantcraft notes that frost giants often feast on herded mammoth stocks. The Vilhon Reach tells us that mammoths wander in herds across the Shining Plains.
That's what I thought. Most probably the 'non-wooly' variety, which in our world became extinct much earlier, but in Toril must have survived*. It provides a perfect prey for the sabertoothed 'tiger' of the Shining Plains (and possibly Chondalwood)**.
*As megafauna go, they must have enjoyed a significant intelligence advantage over Thunderers, suggesting that they became better at predicting dragonic hunting patterns and timing their migrations to avoid them, not to mention learning behaviour not demonstrated by their Earthly cousins, such as sheltering in the edges of forests or grazing in natural ravines. These behaviours make them easier prey for other predators, but few ground-bound predators are as fierce as dragons or will even contemplate attacking of this size. Except intelligent beings living in societies, of course. As soon as the demihuman races become numerous enough to spread out to all the areas where they are found, the megafauna of Toril are unlikely to last long.
**I was wondering what it was that they ate, given that their teeth pretty much force them go with something a lot larger than humans, deer or even horses. I figured it must be elephants, but of course, it would be nice if elephants were more likely to be found further south and east on the Shaar, with the mammoths being an odd survivor in an odd area. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 23 Feb 2012 : 14:14:02
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Can anyone tell me if there is a canon mention of giraffes anywhere in the Realms?
Off the top of my head... giraffes are said to populate the jungles of Chult in significant numbers.
I can't recall any other specific canon references at the moment.
quote:
What about mammoths? Does anyone recall anything about them in the various books about the far North of Faerun, novel or supplement?
The Ol' Grey Box makes references to Suzailian craftsmen working with ivory taken from mammoths. Giantcraft notes that frost giants often feast on herded mammoth stocks. The Vilhon Reach tells us that mammoths wander in herds across the Shining Plains. |
| Jakk |
Posted - 23 Feb 2012 : 07:23:15
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
My money is on a 'real' skull.
Now - see if you can spot 'the body'.... I did. 
 I'm still looking... should I be looking in Realmspace, or on Toril? Come to think of it, maybe the mountains are called "the Spine of the World" for a reason... |
| Jakk |
Posted - 23 Feb 2012 : 07:18:45
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Like I said, I thought I discovered 'something' awhile back, while studying Faerun half-asleep with my eyes half-closed. I thought it might just be my tiredness playing tricks with me, and then I remembered (was reminded of, actually) the skull, and then I asked Ed a certain question, to which I received a very simple "yes".
 And can you repeat that certain question here for the benefit of those of us who don't know what we're looking for? I'll have another look at the map shortly and see if I can see what you saw.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Wooly could easily be right about the Skull - that really could just a fortuitous coincidence. However, all the meteor-strikes (tear falls) I know I am right about, both from researching the lore, and asking Ed about them... including asking if the world has undergone a series of 'mini-iceages', which was confirmed (which indicates a series of catastrophic climate changes spread over time).
I also think some of this ties-into aberrations, which may be where Bruce Cordell was going (although I think he took it in an... unexpected.. direction). I noted a few of the suspect sites had aberrational activity (or other oddities, like the fact that the Aeriee - a Creator race - are so attracted to the region).
Steven Schend also touched upon some of this when he gave us the southern beholder empires - before 2e, beholders were ALWAYS encountered individually. That particular nod to SJ lore (the hive) indicates a space tie-in that goes WAY back (there is even a hidden landing-area in that region).
I haven't gotten it all figured out - I doubt anyone could - but I know I'm onto something with the tearfalls.
So... what about the tearfalls in particular?  This is a fascinating line of inquiry... I wonder if (and how) it all connects to Larloch, Wulgreth, Ascalhorn/Hellgate Keep, and the red pyramids in the ruins of Ascore...  |
| Icelander |
Posted - 23 Feb 2012 : 06:33:10
Can anyone tell me if there is a canon mention of giraffes anywhere in the Realms?
What about mammoths? Does anyone recall anything about them in the various books about the far North of Faerun, novel or supplement? It is very possible that dragons have finally managed to exhaust their numbers, of course, but I'd guess that some still survive there and at the very least, there ought to be fairly recent remains frozen somewhere. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 18 Feb 2012 : 05:33:38
quote:
Originally posted by Eladrinstar
Just how much do we know about Ed's Netheril anyway? Did they have flying enclaves? Did Karsus exist?
We don't know much, beyond what I'm quoting directly from the Ol' Bearded One:-
"The Netheril you saw in print differed in fine detail from my original...
[...]
Netheril certainly wasn’t modeled on ancient real-world anything, and attempts to draw parallels between real-world places and Netheril are tenuous at best. In Netheril I intended to show the decadence of humans consumed by the desire to “master” magic, and achieve immortality or godhood (or the ability to reshape the world like gods, at a whim), and the contrast between their created worlds (not all floating cities, by the way), with altered gravity and such, and the “other” Netherese living like hardy hunters in the forests, ignored or considered beasts by the archwizards."
|
| Markustay |
Posted - 18 Feb 2012 : 04:39:40
Well, if it's Boyd, I will have to accept it as something that was based on lore by ED.
Hmmm... interesting.
I avoid that vingette - I don't care for the illustration. 
Just read it just now. I remember why I didn't care for it - the lore isn't nearly as interesting as the potential the tears had (chunks blown off the moon by a dragon-laser?)
Then again, that was written on scales by a dying and half-crazed dragon, so it could disregarded. Connecting all of that to the Seven Lost Gods is just... reaching. And I thought I grasped at straws. I Love to know what his thoughts were behind that. |
| Eladrinstar |
Posted - 18 Feb 2012 : 04:31:10
Just how much do we know about Ed's Netheril anyway? Did they have flying enclaves? Did Karsus exist? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 18 Feb 2012 : 04:28:11
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
But dead primordials might not end up in the astral - they are tied to the prime material.
My money is on a 'real' skull.
Now - see if you can spot 'the body'.... I did.
Even dead gods aren't depicted as being that freaking big. And I don't see how, even for a god, one portion of the skeleton would continue to regenerate after death. Lastly, the auto-generation of atmosphere is problematic, with the godly explanation -- if this was formerly the head of a god, then this deity literally had air in his head.
Well, I was thinking Primordial, not god.
Meh. Either way, they're powers. And a power with a 12 mile high skull would be what, 72 miles tall? I don't see it.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It's far easier to explain it away by saying it's an artificial construct, even if not my suggestion of Reigar artwork.
I feel the exact opposite - if its a skull, why say its something else? Occam's razor = "from among competing hypotheses, selecting the one that makes the fewest new assumptions usually provides the correct one".
I don't see that the simplest explanation is the remains of a previously unknown entity more than threescore miles tall, with abilities not commonly found in bones, and with the rest of the skeleton curiously absent.
Compared to that, the handiwork of a race known for doing strange things (including accidentally destroying their own world) is a far simpler explanation.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Oh, and Realmspace is a 2E supplement -- so whoever thought up the Skull couldn't have had primordials in mind.
And you make the assumption the entire supplement was written in a vacuum, devoid of any connection to Realmlore.
Ed (and THO, and many others) have told us countless times about the amount of 'unseen' Ed-lore Mr.Greenwood sent to TSR - who's to say the Realmspace author didn't go 'cherry-picking' in some of that? Ed may not have had 'Primordials', but we know he had 'Watching Gods'.
The Realmspace author barely cherry-picked from the known lore about Toril. I find it highly unlikely that the Skull of the Void was even remotely suggested by any of Ed's notes.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I prefer to think that the trend to "ignore all previous canon and design whatever we feel like" is a fairly new phenomena (ignoring the obvious Netheril box example). I'd like to think that at least some of that may have been based on how Ed saw the space around his world.
I'm not sure where you're going with this one... There is next to nothing in Realmspace that has any grounding in any prior Realmslore. They weren't ignoring prior canon, there was no prior canon there to work with.
And it's funny you mention the Netheril boxed set, here... Slade wrote Realmspace, and he was one of the Netheril authors. What you're saying is that he ignored Ed's material for something set in the Realms, but consulted Ed's material for stuff offplanet. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 18 Feb 2012 : 04:09:36
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
The Tears of Selune were caused by an attempt by the dragons to destroy the King-Killer Star.
Where is this from?
It's from Grand History of the Realms, as I recall. The bit that presents a transcript of translated Draconic runes which were inscribed on the scaled corpse of Kisonraathiisar.
Edit: Just checked my copy. It's Eric Boyd's write-up on pg. 48. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 18 Feb 2012 : 03:51:44
Like I said, I thought I discovered 'something' awhile back, while studying Faerun half-asleep with my eyes half-closed. I thought it might just be my tiredness playing tricks with me, and then I remembered (was reminded of, actually) the skull, and then I asked Ed a certain question, to which I received a very simple "yes".
Wooly could easily be right about the Skull - that really could just a fortuitous coincidence. However, all the meteor-strikes (tear falls) I know I am right about, both from researching the lore, and asking Ed about them... including asking if the world has undergone a series of 'mini-iceages', which was confirmed (which indicates a series of catastrophic climate changes spread over time).
I also think some of this ties-into aberrations, which may be where Bruce Cordell was going (although I think he took it in an... unexpected.. direction). I noted a few of the suspect sites had aberrational activity (or other oddities, like the fact that the Aeriee - a Creator race - are so attracted to the region).
Steven Schend also touched upon some of this when he gave us the southern beholder empires - before 2e, beholders were ALWAYS encountered individually. That particular nod to SJ lore (the hive) indicates a space tie-in that goes WAY back (there is even a hidden landing-area in that region).
I haven't gotten it all figured out - I doubt anyone could - but I know I'm onto something with the tearfalls.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
The Tears of Selune were caused by an attempt by the dragons to destroy the King-Killer Star.
Where is this from? |
| The Sage |
Posted - 18 Feb 2012 : 00:39:06
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
But dead primordials might not end up in the astral - they are tied to the prime material.
My money is on a 'real' skull.
Now - see if you can spot 'the body'.... I did.
Even dead gods aren't depicted as being that freaking big. And I don't see how, even for a god, one portion of the skeleton would continue to regenerate after death. Lastly, the auto-generation of atmosphere is problematic, with the godly explanation -- if this was formerly the head of a god, then this deity literally had air in his head.
Recall, though, what Ed said about even dead gods siphoning of what little faith remains from even the rarest of worshippers.
Perhaps the regeneration seen in this giant skull is a result of that continued effect. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 18 Feb 2012 : 00:38:14
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
But dead primordials might not end up in the astral - they are tied to the prime material.
Indeed. As I recall, most of the "dead" primordials are still locked beneath the lands of Abeir.
|
| The Sage |
Posted - 18 Feb 2012 : 00:37:29
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Wolfhound75
Could it perhaps belong to a "Dead God" as pictured in the easily Google-searched D&D Cosmology with the sepia tone?
Just a random thought....
Good Hunting!
It's a thought, but dead gods generally wind up in the Astral. Plus, I'd expect to find the rest of his skeleton around somewhere.
I wouldn't assume that's always the case.
There are instances in the PLANESCAPE setting, for example, of curious skeletal-like structures scattered around that are generally assumed to be the remains certain dead gods.
Take Khin-Oin, the Wasting Tower in the Gray Waste. It's long been rumoured to be the spinal column of a dead god that the yugoloths once slayed in times of ancient planar history. But, yet, we've not seen any further remains of this deity.
Or the Gatetown of Ribcage... another long-rumoured locale that is supposedly said to have been built around the remains of some long-lost [and dead] god trying to escape from Baator.
|
| Markustay |
Posted - 18 Feb 2012 : 00:09:59
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
But dead primordials might not end up in the astral - they are tied to the prime material.
My money is on a 'real' skull.
Now - see if you can spot 'the body'.... I did.
Even dead gods aren't depicted as being that freaking big. And I don't see how, even for a god, one portion of the skeleton would continue to regenerate after death. Lastly, the auto-generation of atmosphere is problematic, with the godly explanation -- if this was formerly the head of a god, then this deity literally had air in his head.
Well, I was thinking Primordial, not god.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It's far easier to explain it away by saying it's an artificial construct, even if not my suggestion of Reigar artwork.
I feel the exact opposite - if its a skull, why say its something else? Occam's razor = "from among competing hypotheses, selecting the one that makes the fewest new assumptions usually provides the correct one".
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Oh, and Realmspace is a 2E supplement -- so whoever thought up the Skull couldn't have had primordials in mind.
And you make the assumption the entire supplement was written in a vacuum, devoid of any connection to Realmlore.
Ed (and THO, and many others) have told us countless times about the amount of 'unseen' Ed-lore Mr.Greenwood sent to TSR - who's to say the Realmspace author didn't go 'cherry-picking' in some of that? Ed may not have had 'Primordials', but we know he had 'Watching Gods'.
I prefer to think that the trend to "ignore all previous canon and design whatever we feel like" is a fairly new phenomena (ignoring the obvious Netheril box example). I'd like to think that at least some of that may have been based on how Ed saw the space around his world. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 18 Feb 2012 : 00:00:51
@Icelander - the power that 'died' in Realmspace was the first sun - this is detailed in the War of Light & Darkness lore, and supported by the Draconic creation myth (see 2e Draconimicon).
However, I really don't think the only 'heavenly body' (because I think Primordials are actually represented by planets, like in Greek and other mythologies) destroyed during that conflict was The First Sun. Which brings me to......
@Jakk - look at Shar's symbol in particular - it appears to be a 'dark moon'.
Reminder: Most of this is pure speculation. As I have said, I just like connecting all this stuff together; I have no way of telling if any of this was Ed's intent.
|
| Jakk |
Posted - 17 Feb 2012 : 23:43:07
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
My thoughts on all of this - at least one ancient 'power' was kiled in Realmspace (we actually know this for a fact), and bits of that beings - and maybe at least one other - are all over the sphere, and some continue to 'fall to earth' from time to time.
Where can I find the canon that you extrapolate that from?
I'm curious about this too... is this something to do with the original Imaskari? |
| Jakk |
Posted - 17 Feb 2012 : 23:28:46
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
But dead primordials might not end up in the astral - they are tied to the prime material.
My money is on a 'real' skull.
Now - see if you can spot 'the body'.... I did.
Hiding in plain sight, right?
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
@Jakk - there is no one particular place to read about tear-falls. At one time, with all the mentions of 'the' tearfall it was thought that there was only one, but I have evidence of at least a dozen (You need to read the history behind places like the Starmounts, and then study the geography - much of Toril's landscape was created by LOTS of falling debris).
The most recent in modern (1e/2e/3e) memory was in the far NW of Faerûn, somewhere in the Moonsea North, and perhaps even somewhere out on in Pelvuria. It is mentioned in both The Great Glacier, and also is the basis for the entire storyline in 2e's Payer's Guide to the Forgotten Realms. The heat was so intense it is what caused the fairly recent 'release' of Vassa & Damara from the ice (the climactic warming is indeed mentioned in tGG product).
Heh... so it's time for me to play geological detective. Which maps do you suggest I use for this? I have the FR Atlas, and I have (all or nearly all) the maps made publicly available by you and HandsomeRob. I also have my 1E taped-together mega-map, but it's tightly rolled up in a 6' long, 8" diameter PVC map tube together with every other map from 1E and 2E ever published, and removing them might result in not being able to put them back...
The Star Mounts are a fascinating place... from the lore in the OGB, it seems fairly clear that the Aearee have a final remaining toehold in Faerun at the peaks, and the dwarven realm of Onthrilaenthor is (even more than Undermountain or other dwarven ruins) the FR analogue to Moria. However, I'm curious about the implications of the hints dropped in the OGB:
quote:
Located in the heart of the High Forest, this steep-sloped cluster of mountains ascends higher than even the tallest peaks in the Spine of the World. It is possible to see the snowcapped mountain tops, and the slopes which sparkle like cut diamonds, from as far away as the Stone Bridge, or the mountains north of Loudwater.
The elves of Eaerlann first named the mountains, giving them the same names as stars in the northern heavens. Most of the original names are forgotten, only their rough translations survive: Bard's Hill, Mount Vision, and Hunterhorn. Yet, a few are remembered: Y'tellarien (The Far Star), called Far Peak, Y'landrothiel (Traveler's Star), called Mount Journey, and N'landroshien (Darkness in Light), called Shadowpeak.
The forest south of the mountains hides a gnarled surface that might be called a badland were it not so densely thicketed. To the north, the land is unusually smooth, as if leveled with a woodworker's plane. The mountains are also known to be rich in metals, including remarkably pure iron and nickel. But since the end of Eaerlann, no one mines there.
The Star Mounts are an unapproachable curiosity. The ancient elven names hint at some unfathomable mystery (though most suspect the elves know the truth of it). As far as anyone knows, no flying thing less powerful than a dragon can land there due to constant and usually fierce winds.
(emphasis mine) High-purity iron and nickel would certainly suggest a meteorite... and I'm just coming up with this now... it came in from the north at a fairly shallow angle, and yet a significant part of its already huge mass survived; it was hot enough to melt the bedrock north of its impact, resulting in the smoothness described, and the remaining part is what we know as the Star Mounts. The unquoted part following the above quote is the part that implicates the aearee (but not directly; it mentions instead that aarakocra have no difficulty with flight to and from the peaks, and we know from later lore that the aarakocra are the heirs to, or at least the favoured creations of, the aearee).
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
My thoughts on all of this - at least one ancient 'power' was kiled in Realmspace (we actually know this for a fact), and bits of that beings - and maybe at least one other - are all over the sphere, and some continue to 'fall to earth' from time to time.
This may or may not be related to the Tears of Selune. My personal belief is that they are related to the conflict, but perhaps not the same being. You don't need to just study the maps. lore, and naming conventions - you also need to look at the symbols of certain gods. 
The symbols of certain gods, hmm? Well, the symbols presented in Faiths & Pantheons aren't telling me much... although the symbols of the mother and daughter Selune and Mystra are startlingly similar in form. I need to check out the simple two-colour symbols given in FR Adventures (2E) to confirm or deny something that I seem to recall from that era; didn't one of the gods have as their symbol a meteor or shooting star? ?!:]
I'm sure this whole train of thought (right back to the giant skull in Realmspace) would be better suited to its own scroll, but separating the terra from the fauna is probably a job for a mod... assuming that Markustay agrees that such a separation should be made. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 17 Feb 2012 : 23:08:12
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The most recent in modern (1e/2e/3e) memory was in the far NW of Faerûn, somewhere in the Moonsea North, and perhaps even somewhere out on in Pelvuria. It is mentioned in both The Great Glacier, and also is the basis for the entire storyline in 2e's Payer's Guide to the Forgotten Realms. The heat was so intense it is what caused the fairly recent 'release' of Vassa & Damara from the ice (the climactic warming is indeed mentioned in tGG product).
That's very recent, as in within 400 years.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
My thoughts on all of this - at least one ancient 'power' was kiled in Realmspace (we actually know this for a fact), and bits of that beings - and maybe at least one other - are all over the sphere, and some continue to 'fall to earth' from time to time.
Where can I find the canon that you extrapolate that from?
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
This may or may not be related to the Tears of Selune. My personal belief is that they are related to the conflict, but perhaps not the same being. You don't need to just study the maps. lore, and naming conventions - you also need to look at the symbols of certain gods.
The Tears of Selune were caused by an attempt by the dragons to destroy the King-Killer Star.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And horses aren't natural - they are a crossbreed between Centaurs and Haygriva.
This may not be entirely facetious. Except, instead of a cross-breed, think 'most recent common ancestor'.
While small horse-like creatures might have roamed early Toril, large, strong and fleet horses useful for riding are fairly recent. Toril isn't old enough for traditional real-world evolution to have produced all the varieties of equines that exist on it, so one almost has to resort to magic or the divine.
It isn't implausible that imagine that centaurs (all types), Haygriva, buraq, pegasi, hippogriff, zebras and all the 'nobler' horses all result from the presence of a primeval people* of mutable nature some place on Toril and their interaction with the small wild horses originally there.
*The forerunners of nature spirits and fey.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
To be serious for moment, I think that Vedic power (and that pantheon - at least some part of it - exists on Toril) is also responsible for some of the horse-headed Oni common to to Kara-Tur.
I don't know. I don't quite see the horse (or a central importance to human cultures) as indigenous to the areas where the original Lords of Creation pantheon would have existed in the Realms.
On the other hand, the Devic pantheon looks like it is composed of the gods of a conquering culture triumping over a more settled and pastoral people (the conqueror then settled down afterwards and more settled gods emerged again). The invading gods mixed with the older, animist gods. Horses might have been a feature of the last wave of conquest.
In fact, it looks like people on horses have conquered much of Faerun, in successive waves, beginning sometime in the last ten millenia. |
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