| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Thelonius |
Posted - 14 Sep 2011 : 18:47:39
Yesterday I was making a mental analisys of the WotSQ saga, yes I think that things sometimes, and something came to my mind. When Lolth did all the messing the souls of her loyals were waiting in a queue, but what about the planes of existance of those gods who are in theory gone? Helm, Eillistrae, Mystra, Azuth, ... I mean the people who were worshipping them and die will go to the Wall but what about those already dead and claimed by them when they were alive? The plane is gone and the souls of those within there too? They have been sent to the wall, or something different has happenned to them? |
| 15 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| The Sage |
Posted - 21 Sep 2011 : 08:38:12
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I believe the original (and I daresay, my favourite) Doctor, the venerable half-senile one, stated at some point that his Tardis has the capacity to regenerate his psyche 17 times.
Aye. Most of the background material supports that unspecified number of "lives" as well.
During the Fourth Doctor [Tom Baker] years, though, it was suggested that all Time Lords could only regenerate twelve times. But, as with most science-fiction universes that have endured for decades, the concept of the Doctor's regenerations has taken on new and interesting "quirks" as per the current 2005-2011 series.
quote:
Nonetheless, his lives are numbered. Although he does seem somewhat ageless, since thus far he's only died from accident or violence or malice of unusually inescapable proportions.
I'm not so sure they are numbered, if recent story-lines and tidbits dropped by the series writers' and such are any indication. Why, the venerable Doctor [and current Eleventh incarnation] has even suggested that he can regenerate more than five-hundred times! [Or, alternatively, as many times as he needs to.] |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 21 Sep 2011 : 05:37:46
I believe the original (and I daresay, my favourite) Doctor, the venerable half-senile one, stated at some point that his Tardis has the capacity to regenerate his psyche 17 times. Or perhaps it was 11 times, or only 9, or some other little number ... I can't recall. Nonetheless, his lives are numbered. Although he does seem somewhat ageless, since thus far he's only died from accident or violence or malice of unusually inescapable proportions. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 21 Sep 2011 : 05:15:14
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
For me, immortal does not mean invulnerable. I have no issue whatsoever with the idea of a being that would otherwise live forever being vulnerable to being destroyed or killed.
The Time Lords, and specifically, the Doctor, are both classic examples of this. While he may be immortal [to a degree] thanks to his ability to regenerate into an entirely new biological form [it's been hinted that he doesn't necessarily have to assume a humanoid shape] after death, he's certainly not invulnerable.
After all, he's been killed ten times already!  |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 21 Sep 2011 : 04:43:33
For me, immortal does not mean invulnerable. I have no issue whatsoever with the idea of a being that would otherwise live forever being vulnerable to being destroyed or killed. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 21 Sep 2011 : 01:16:09
The problem arises when one applies logic: IF a 'deity' is NOT immortal, then it is indeed mortal, and thus, not a true god at all.
I think 'true gods' (Ed's "Watching Gods") Are truly immortal, unless destroyed by a more powerful cosmic being or group of said beings. Most of the gods from mythology - and by extension fantasy fiction - are just Uber-powerful mortals, that have learned some of the 'deep secrets' of the multiverse.
The 'god' Apollo appeared in an episode of Star Trek (Who Mourns for Adonis?), and was nothing more then a powerful entity who seemed mostly human... except for a strange, extra organ (of unknown purpose). That's kinda my take on D&D (and mythological) deities - just normal (perhaps other-wordly) beings who can do things with energy and matter normal folks can't (basically a super-epic wizard who needs no spells to accomplish what he wants).
If gods can die, and Mages can cast Wish, the lines becomes a bit blurred, do they not? |
| Thelonius |
Posted - 20 Sep 2011 : 19:56:13
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
I have always found the mortality of the gods of the Realms to be disturbing. Personally i would prefer the gods to be genuine immortals.
I like FR gods cause their imperfections (a la Roman ones),some are greedy, other fools and other naive or short sighted... that make them child with bazzookas  , and if you are smart enough and the god is not Lolth you can manage them to serve your pruposes. The fact they can die cause of lack of adoration is an interesting turning. |
| Artemas Entreri |
Posted - 20 Sep 2011 : 19:52:35
I have always found the mortality of the gods of the Realms to be disturbing. Personally i would prefer the gods to be genuine immortals. |
| Thelonius |
Posted - 20 Sep 2011 : 19:52:17
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
It might be more interesting (story-wise) if the souls of 'dead gods' became 'free agents', similar to Ronin Samurai. Most would go to a like-minded deity, but not all. Some might even be so disgruntled they decide to play for the opposing team (like one of Helm's faithful becoming a dread knight of Asmodeus, for example).
Think about it - YOUR afterlife is supposed to be FOREVER - wouldn't you feel a little gypped if you were devout your entire life, just to wind-up in some other god's dead-deity ghetto? 
Authors take note - there's a great story in there somewhere. 
That's an interesting twist.... I think I might use it in some of my campaigns.... Dead people's souls coming back changed or something... |
| Markustay |
Posted - 20 Sep 2011 : 19:43:25
It might be more interesting (story-wise) if the souls of 'dead gods' became 'free agents', similar to Ronin Samurai. Most would go to a like-minded deity, but not all. Some might even be so disgruntled they decide to play for the opposing team (like one of Helm's faithful becoming a dread knight of Asmodeus, for example).
Think about it - YOUR afterlife is supposed to be FOREVER - wouldn't you feel a little gypped if you were devout your entire life, just to wind-up in some other god's dead-deity ghetto?
Authors take note - there's a great story in there somewhere. |
| Shemmy |
Posted - 20 Sep 2011 : 17:33:17
Mind you, I'm speaking from a pre-4e perspective.
Depending on if they had plans in place for such an event or if it was unexpected, I could see dead gods having the souls of their petitioners distributed to other, allied deities, or simply adopted by other gods of similar portfolio. On the fiendish planes it also might become something of a feeding frenzy once a dead god's domain begins to collapse back into the surrounding plane. |
| Therise |
Posted - 14 Sep 2011 : 21:10:51
quote:
Originally posted by Thelonius
So the plane keeps up existing or they are simply "translocated", anyways I think Adon was faithfull to Mystra and thanks to Cyric he went to the Wall, so I thought Kelemvor wouldn't be so merciful at all
Well, as far as planes, we know that Eilistraee's plane "wavered" but didn't discorporate when she stopped being a goddess (or perhaps died), and since her charges are under Corellon's care I'd imagine he now controls her old plane. Although Lolth probably gobbled up Eilistraee's small holding in the Abyss, I'd imagine.
Mystra's plane was "destroyed" according to 4E lore, but we haven't actually seen what that means, really.
When Mask got re-absorbed into Shar, his planar keep stayed under the protection of one of his "hands", who is presumably still alive and holding part of Mask's power.
Helm... I -think- his area is probably under the protection of the Triad, so Torm or someone is likely monitoring it. Not sure, though. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 14 Sep 2011 : 19:25:02
Insurance companies and financial institutions fold. Nations and governments collapse. Pagan gods disappear or die. Promises can be broken ... even in the afterlife. I'd think souls might be adopted or subjugated by other gods. Or simply fade from existence through a sort of spiritual starvation. Perhaps, if they are strong enough, they might be able to sustain themselves in some kind of outer planar island, or be forced to migrate to an adjacent plane of belief. Their belief might be assimilated into that of their new patron, or just as likely they would themselves be redefined into a more compatible format. |
| Thelonius |
Posted - 14 Sep 2011 : 19:20:17
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by Thelonius
Yesterday I was making a mental analisys of the WotSQ saga, yes I think that things sometimes, and something came to my mind. When Lolth did all the messing the souls of her loyals were waiting in a queue, but what about the planes of existance of those gods who are in theory gone? Helm, Eillistrae, Mystra, Azuth, ... I mean the people who were worshipping them and die will go to the Wall but what about those already dead and claimed by them when they were alive? The plane is gone and the souls of those within there too? They have been sent to the wall, or something different has happenned to them?
Speculation by one of the designers, Rich Baker I think, was that other deities "close to" or allied with the recently killed deity would "take over" until the mortals figured things out.
Helm's faithful would have gone to Torm or Tyr, or another ally.
Eilistraee essentially had Corellon take over for her, which is in the book IIRC.
Mystra's faithful would likely have been taken in by Selūne.
Azuth's could have gone to Selūne, Oghma, or someone similar.
All speculation, of course, as nothing has been explicitly stated (except for Corellon taking in Eilistraee's faithful). But it makes sense. Alternatively, a petitioner might have the option to take the deity to whom they felt "next" closest. If anything, Kelemvor would not want to send honestly faithful souls into the Wall or subject them to servitude in his castle if they genuinely felt close to another deity while alive.
So the plane keeps up existing or they are simply "translocated", anyways I think Adon was faithfull to Mystra and thanks to Cyric he went to the Wall, so I thought Kelemvor wouldn't be so merciful at all |
| Therise |
Posted - 14 Sep 2011 : 19:07:45
quote:
Originally posted by Thelonius
Yesterday I was making a mental analisys of the WotSQ saga, yes I think that things sometimes, and something came to my mind. When Lolth did all the messing the souls of her loyals were waiting in a queue, but what about the planes of existance of those gods who are in theory gone? Helm, Eillistrae, Mystra, Azuth, ... I mean the people who were worshipping them and die will go to the Wall but what about those already dead and claimed by them when they were alive? The plane is gone and the souls of those within there too? They have been sent to the wall, or something different has happenned to them?
Speculation by one of the designers, Rich Baker I think, was that other deities "close to" or allied with the recently killed deity would "take over" until the mortals figured things out.
Helm's faithful would have gone to Torm or Tyr, or another ally.
Eilistraee essentially had Corellon take over for her, which is in the book IIRC.
Mystra's faithful would likely have been taken in by Selūne.
Azuth's could have gone to Selūne, Oghma, or someone similar.
All speculation, of course, as nothing has been explicitly stated (except for Corellon taking in Eilistraee's faithful). But it makes sense. Alternatively, a petitioner might have the option to take the deity to whom they felt "next" closest. If anything, Kelemvor would not want to send honestly faithful souls into the Wall or subject them to servitude in his castle if they genuinely felt close to another deity while alive.
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| Bladewind |
Posted - 14 Sep 2011 : 19:02:26
I believe it was Rich Baker that said the souls are redistributed across the domains of the remaining pantheon, with those lying closer by 'catching' the bulk of them. Usually the domains of gods that are allied are closer to eachother in the Astral Sea, so for example Mystras petitioners that survived the deicide explosion of their homeplane ended up in Selunes domain of the Gates of the Moon. |
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