| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| MrHedgehog |
Posted - 12 Aug 2011 : 22:11:43
Some deities have clearly defined origins like Bane was once a mortal, Selune/Shar/Chauntea have always existed, etc. But others don't have any origin stories that I know of.
I was wondering if there were unpublished origin stories for deities like Sune, Tymora, Talona, etc. ? Are they interloper deities, arisen mortals, or what? |
| 25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Quale |
Posted - 31 Aug 2011 : 12:41:34
survivors from Jhaamdath settled Impiltur, not Chessenta
tough Tyche is from the Netherese pantheon, the Vaasans are partially Netherese |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 27 Aug 2011 : 19:03:08
If we are to go by lore.... though I know some people won't like it... the areas around Impiltur and Damara are more prone to having Greek deities, as I recall the 2nd edition Bloodstone Lands mentioned followers of Poseidon and I believe Tyche too. I'd have to track down where the people of Impiltur came from (I think around the southwestern inner sea area). |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 21 Aug 2011 : 20:25:22
Here is a link to another thread with speculations about the Jhaamdathan pantheon which has a lot of information and speculations on the origin of a lot of gods: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5845 |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 21 Aug 2011 : 20:16:30
I had once speculated that Umberlee had long ago been a mortal kraken that terrorized primitive Northmen or coastal Talfir tribesmen. They began to offer her tribute to appease her, eventually worshiping her as a deity and causing her apotheosis.
The lovely lady Hooded One had chimed in on the thread and said she found the theory very plausible. |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 21 Aug 2011 : 20:10:17
With respect to Gond, although Ed may have used Hephaestus as a model for Gond, I don't think Gond is meant to actually be an aspect of an interloper Hephaestus. Although we can't rule out for certain that Hephaestus/Vulcan managed to interlope by way of Chessenta. However, I think Gond is only loosely inspired by Hephaestus.
My own personal theory is that Gond is actually an aspect of Goibhnie, the blacksmith of the gods from the Celtic pantheon (as represented in the original Deities & Demigods).
The Imaskari set up a god barrier that prevented the gods of the slaves they kidnapped from Earth from traveling to Faerūn. Those Greek gods that weren't already here were barred from entering. I would argue that Tyche managed it because she was already well established in Faerūn before the god barrier went up.
But it is well established that members of the Celtic pantheon managed to cross over to Toril, namely Oghma and Sylvanus. Other Celtic deities may have crossed over but failed to establish themselves or possibly died out over time or were absorbed by other native gods. Goibhnie has the technical prowess of Gond. Even their names are linguistically similar, and one could easily make the case that Gond is a corruption of the name Goibhnie changed over time. Note also that Gond is linked to Oghma and that his Realm is found in Oghma's House of Knowledge. I think these facts strongly support that Gond may be an interloped Goibhnie. |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 21 Aug 2011 : 19:54:48
While Ed has based certain of his gods off of Greek gods, I don't think the article "Down to Earth Divinity" meant to imply that Suné, Gond and Mask are actually fragments/aspects of those deities. Rather, my impression is that Ed was saying that some of his gods were merely inspired by those deities.
Of course, there's some plausible deniability there. It's possible they really are interlopers, and if so, the most likely conduit for their arrival in Faerūn would have been with the folk of Chessenta that were brought by the Imaskari from ancient Greece and Rome through portals to Earth.
Some have pointed out that the name Suné is Venus spelled backwards (with out the V) and suggest that this hints at her origins as the Roman goddess.
However, I am still fond of the idea that Suné is the daughter of Selūne by Lathander (as her red hair might suggest), who, newly incarnated after the fall of Netheril, wooed Selūne in a passionate, if brief affair. Alternative parentage might be Hanali Celanil, who it is not inconceivable could have had a fling with Selūne and "fathered" a child with her.
Hanali Celanil was always close with Suné, they even lived together or at least in adjoining realms that bordered the Evergold. Recently it has been revealed that Hanali and Suné are the same goddess. Although, it has not been established that she was always so.
One possible theory is that Suné is the aspect of Hanali as worshiped by humans, entering the pantheon of the North through the close association of humans and elves and fey folk in the area of the High Forest.
Although, my favorite theory is still that Suné was the child of Selūne and Lathander, who became close friends with Hanali. Hanali became her mentor and possibly her lover. I imagine that the original Hanali was slain or mortally (immortally?) wounded during the Dawn Cataclsym (or possibly as late as the Time of Troubles) causing Suné to absorb her and take on her persona as an alias in order to care for Hanali's worshipers.
Yet another theory is that when elves migrated to Faerūn, they brought Corellon with them, but due to Ao's immigration laws, or native gods already having claim to the same portfolios, the rest of Corellon's pantheon was unable to establish themselves on Toril. Consequently, native gods began to answer prayers to those deities using the names and guises of the elven gods as an alias. Selūne, it has been established, took the alias Sehanine Moonbow and answered elven prayers in her name (Aerdrie Faenya has also been revealed to be an aspect or alias of Akadi). It is possible that Selūne did double duty, taking the name of Hanali Celanil in addition to Sehanine. Later, when Suné was born, Selūne gave Suné not only a portion of her portfolio, but gave her custody of the Hanali alias as well. |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 21 Aug 2011 : 18:56:15
Nobanion is actually an interloper deity. Per Faiths & Pantheons p.103, Nobanion only established a presence in Faerūn a few centuries ago. Eric Boyd's Polyhedron Article "Forgotten Deities - Beast Cults: The Lion and The Unicorn" (Polyhedron #115, p.21) states that "some legends claim Nobanion entered the Realms through one of many magical pools in the Weathercote Woods, each of which acts a gate to another world." It also states that he believed to be the father of all lammasu.
He may have migrated to Faerūn with the wemics (if they are an interloper race); although, Eric Boyd's Polyhedron article seems to imply that wemics began to follow him sometime after he arrived in Faerūn.
My best guess is that Nobanion may actually be a fragment/aspect of Narnia's Aslan. Ed Greenwood has said that in his home Realms he has used the Wood Between The Worlds as an interplanar travelway. Narnia may be connected to the Realms. Perhaps the Weathercote Woods is somehow tied to the Wood Between the Worlds, a manifestation of it on the Material Plane, or coterminous with it, and/or possibly connected by a soft planar border. Ed definitely based Nobanion on Aslan, but one might draw the inference that Nobanion is not merely inspired by Aslan but intended to be connected to Aslan, as the version of Aslan that is worshiped in the Realms.
He is also the heraldic lion from the coat of arms of England, as portrayed in Lewis Caroll's "Through the Looking Glass" and the poem "The lion and the unicorn Were fighting for the crown The lion beat the unicorn All around the town." Lurue is of course, the Unicorn. (This is mentioned by Ed in his comments here on the forums.)
In recent lore, it has been established that Nobanion is a primal spirit, technically not a deity as such. Although he can be worshiped as a god, primal spirits do not derive their power through belief and prayer and souls, but as an expression of nature, a manifestation of the Prime Material Plane (as opposed to the Astral). |
| Chosen of Asmodeus |
Posted - 19 Aug 2011 : 16:01:56
Yea, there'd have to be some differences considering that Aslan is literally Christ, and I'm not seeing that integration going well. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 18 Aug 2011 : 15:43:00
Indeed. Nobanion originally was, in part, based on Aslan. So saith Ed in the old DRAGON article [#54] on divinity. |
| Quale |
Posted - 18 Aug 2011 : 10:28:54
Nobanion is based on Aslan from Narnia, obviously there are some differences as well. Similar is with Ilmater and Issek of the Jug from Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser. |
| Cronje |
Posted - 18 Aug 2011 : 07:43:21
There's an interesting theory about Tiamat and Bahamut in chapter 1 of the Draconomicon (the 2nd edition sourcebook). |
| Galuf the Dwarf |
Posted - 17 Aug 2011 : 14:35:15
quote:
Originally posted by Darkhund
Lathander (Apollo), Oghma, Tyr are all interlopers, as are the Mulhorandi (Egyptian) pantheon.
Well, Lathander has been confirmed to be a reincarnation of Amaunator, so unless Amaunator is supposed to be Apollo, I'm wondering if that point's moot. |
| Seethyr |
Posted - 17 Aug 2011 : 13:46:47
Sharess I believe was originally Bast. Anyone know any of Nobanion's origin? |
| Cronje |
Posted - 17 Aug 2011 : 11:07:40
I believe the gnoll or kobold gods' origins are mentioned in Faiths and Pantheons. |
| Kno |
Posted - 17 Aug 2011 : 10:33:54
and demihuman gods |
| glitter |
Posted - 16 Aug 2011 : 10:08:43
quote:
Originally posted by Darkhund
Lathander (Apollo), Oghma, Tyr are all interlopers, as are the Mulhorandi (Egyptian) pantheon.
And the Untheric pantheon  |
| The Sage |
Posted - 16 Aug 2011 : 08:35:54
I've the entire thread saved, MrHedgehog.
I'll send you a copy.
|
| MrHedgehog |
Posted - 16 Aug 2011 : 07:52:19
Maruluthu Mistrivvin did you save any more descriptions he posted? |
| Darkhund |
Posted - 15 Aug 2011 : 23:19:24
Lathander (Apollo), Oghma, Tyr are all interlopers, as are the Mulhorandi (Egyptian) pantheon. |
| Marc |
Posted - 15 Aug 2011 : 11:24:56
There was a great thread about this subject at WotC by Gray Richardson, Seems lost now.
I have some of it saved: quote:
Sune did not exist during the time of Netheril and Selune had the portfolio of Beauty. I believe Sune must be one of the many children of Selune mentioned in the FRCS. As the daughter of Selune she would have probably started out in the Gates of the Moon. Selune even took to serving Sune for a great long while. This strikes me as the actions of a mother stepping back and nurturing her daughter, giving her part of her portfolio and devoting herself to helping her daughter Sune to break out and shine. At some point Sune seems to have moved out of the Gates and probably set up her divine realm on the unified plane of Olympus/Arvandor. Her realm was probably located between Tyche's realm of Olympus and Hanali Celanil's realm--probably attached to the other side of Lake Evergold across the lake from Hanali's Crystal Palace.
Talona: quote:
Talona is often viewed in the negative as a detriment to life, but perhaps a better way to understand her is to think of her is as life unrestrained, unchecked, out-of-bounds. She represents life redirected at itself, at-odds with itself. I imagine she was one of Shar's more effective generals. She did not lead forces, she did something much more subtle. She was an agent-provactaeur. She fomented rebellion, she incited life to riot, to break the rules of nature. She bent Chauntea's creatures to her will. She combatted life with life. And this probably terrified Chauntea to the core of her being.
After the War, I surmise that the Barrens of Doom and Despair was crafted as a holding space for Talona. It was "barren", in the sense of infertile, devoid of life, with the intent of checking Talona and giving her no raw materials to work with.
I do not think Talona created this plane for herself, because if she had, it would be a lush place teeming with life, and would likely be a positive-dominant plane. Talona's own realm is like this, but the plane at large is the exact opposite, designed, I believe, to ring her in, limiting her capacity to spread.
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| AdamBridger |
Posted - 14 Aug 2011 : 11:36:36
A fair amount of background on Mask is in Paul S. Kemp's The Twilight War Series as he and Erevis Cale interact. I also suspect Paul S. Kemp's next trilogy of books will have even more detail considering how Showrealm ended. |
| MrHedgehog |
Posted - 14 Aug 2011 : 04:42:48
I have read down to earth divinity, I recall that Sune was Aphrodite with a new name, Gond was Hephastus, Mask was Hermes renamed (which shocked me since later he is described as being an evil power)
I'll search the scrolls. I know Sune and Selune are in a comic book I read long, long, long ago but I don't remember the details.
Do you know which scroll to look at? There are a lot of them. Searching names all I found was "Jeff did create and name Waukeen". Nothing else concerning the origins of deities. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 13 Aug 2011 : 02:01:59
Faiths & Avatars provides some hints, as does Demihuman Deities and Powers & Pantheons. Ed also briefly touched on how some Realms gods came about through his "Down-to-Earth Divinity" article in DRAGON #54. He's also [briefly] discussed deity-origins in his scroll here at Candlekeep [I'd suggest a search]. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 13 Aug 2011 : 00:01:01
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Tymora had one from 2e. She was originally Tyche from the Greek pantheon but she disappeared while in Realmspace and after one of the Greek deities, I forgot which one, went to find her, he learned that she split into Tymora and Beshaba. Now, who knows if that's still true for 3e's and 4e's cosmology.
If I recall right, this happened during the Dawn Cat and it involved Moander corrupting Tyche with a flower. Selune, or was it Sune, helped Tyche split into the twins goddesses.
It was indeed during the Dawn Cataclysm, though it's not clear if it was in any way related to that overly mysterious event. Selūne zapped Tyche when she saw that Tyche had become corrupted by Moander. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 12 Aug 2011 : 22:40:39
Tymora had one from 2e. She was originally Tyche from the Greek pantheon but she disappeared while in Realmspace and after one of the Greek deities, I forgot which one, went to find her, he learned that she split into Tymora and Beshaba. Now, who knows if that's still true for 3e's and 4e's cosmology.
If I recall right, this happened during the Dawn Cat and it involved Moander corrupting Tyche with a flower. Selune, or was it Sune, helped Tyche split into the twins goddesses. |
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