| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Arcanus |
Posted - 05 Jun 2011 : 02:09:57
Why was Cyric imprisoned for killing Mystra? He is/was? the god of murder after all. Even Ao said it was his divine duty to try to murder the gods themselves. FG Wiki states that TYR was one of those who helped with the imprisonment in retaliation for murdering Mystra. That's TYR- god of law and justice ffs. The same god who presided over the trials of Kelemvor and Mystra for exceeding their divine remit.
Does canon mean nothing any more.  |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Arcanus |
Posted - 13 Jun 2011 : 10:03:55
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Woah, guys. Seriously! Calm thy emotions (perhaps with the aid of magic, if necessary).
Ahh... the magical pills. They make us so happy by numbing the pain. 
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Let me rephrased what I said:
Yes, Wooly, Ao is the only one who can *directly* block deities or promote deities.
Yes, Eltheron, for all we know, Shar blocked Mystra by SOME MEANS OTHER than *direct* means. She couldn't block her directly, because (as Wooly pointed out) only Ao can do that.
What we *don't know* is what Shar did, and I think that leaves an amazing range of doubt that can easily be filled by creativity on the part of your local campaign. (Hint hint!)
Let me offer a few suggestions:
1) As previously suggested, Shar absorbed part of Mystra that is necessary for Mystra to come back.
2) As I suggested, Shar convinced Ao not to allow another goddess of magic, which is a huge liability (I mean, look what Mystra's repeated deaths have done).
3) Shar has the portfolio of magic (which no one knows about, because, ahem, goddess of secrets). Or possibly CYRIC has the portfolio of magic, having had it secreted into him.
4) Mystra isn't really dead but imprisoned by Shar, so no other god of magic would ascend to fill her space because it isn't vacant.
5) There is/was a prospective nascent god of magic (a reborn Mystra if you will), whom Shar took prisoner. Alternatively, there could be *many* reborn Mystras that show up (one per generation, I think), which Shar consistently hunts down and kills every time they're born.
The list goes on.
All of those are possible explanations for ways Shar could have stopped a new god of magic from rising up *without* directly doing so (ala Ao).
In summary, Shar does *not* have to have Ao-esque powers to stop a god of magic from ascending by indirect means.
I really cannot make it clearer than that.
Cheers
Those are some really awesome suggestions, and after reading your post - something hit me like a bolt of lightning. Something that suddenly made some things make sense.
A huge issue that has always been brought up: Why was there a Spellplague? Mystra has been done away with on previous occasions and NOTHING like this happened. The explanation that we were given was something like: 'this time things were different.'
You brought up the possibility that one reason Mystra couldn't "return" was because another deity had the portfolio of magic. I brought up the possibility of Cyric having the portfolio of magic in another thread recently. After all, it seems to be pretty standard: You kill a deity, you get their portfolios. It's not a 100% guarantee, but more often than not it happens, right?
So, if Cyric killed Mystra then he could technically be the new god of magic. This would explain what was different and more importantly - why the Spellplague happened.
The moment Cyric obtained those portfolios that once belonged to Mystra, he could have been the divine equivalent of Karsus. He couldn't control the Weave or Magic. Things spiraled out of control. People were killed by the thousands, the world was plunged into chaos and strife. All very fitting consequences for a deity of murder and strife himself.
Mystra could then not return because Cyric held her portfolios. This is really the most logical reason as to why things were different this last time Mystra died as compared to previous deaths. It would also explain why her Chosen could not fulfill one of their primary duties - to bring her back.
Perhaps Cyric has entrusted a portion of Mystra's divinity to Shar, just as a failsafe should something go wrong... which would explain how Shar is preventing the return of Mystra. Or maybe he attempted to give the portfolio of the Weave to Shar, but she lacked the ability to control it and ended up losing control of both the Weave and Shadow Weave as a result. So technically, Shar is the goddess of the Weave (even though there is no Weave). Somewhat ironic.
This makes sense, considering Cyric surely knew of the Shadow Weave, and of the two Shar was the best candidate to control it since she sorta-kinda had experience with her own Weave.
I like the idea that cyric holds the reigns of magic and that his nature corrupts magic to the extent that it caused the spellplague. |
| Aldrick |
Posted - 13 Jun 2011 : 08:09:51
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Woah, guys. Seriously! Calm thy emotions (perhaps with the aid of magic, if necessary).
Ahh... the magical pills. They make us so happy by numbing the pain.
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Let me rephrased what I said:
Yes, Wooly, Ao is the only one who can *directly* block deities or promote deities.
Yes, Eltheron, for all we know, Shar blocked Mystra by SOME MEANS OTHER than *direct* means. She couldn't block her directly, because (as Wooly pointed out) only Ao can do that.
What we *don't know* is what Shar did, and I think that leaves an amazing range of doubt that can easily be filled by creativity on the part of your local campaign. (Hint hint!)
Let me offer a few suggestions:
1) As previously suggested, Shar absorbed part of Mystra that is necessary for Mystra to come back.
2) As I suggested, Shar convinced Ao not to allow another goddess of magic, which is a huge liability (I mean, look what Mystra's repeated deaths have done).
3) Shar has the portfolio of magic (which no one knows about, because, ahem, goddess of secrets). Or possibly CYRIC has the portfolio of magic, having had it secreted into him.
4) Mystra isn't really dead but imprisoned by Shar, so no other god of magic would ascend to fill her space because it isn't vacant.
5) There is/was a prospective nascent god of magic (a reborn Mystra if you will), whom Shar took prisoner. Alternatively, there could be *many* reborn Mystras that show up (one per generation, I think), which Shar consistently hunts down and kills every time they're born.
The list goes on.
All of those are possible explanations for ways Shar could have stopped a new god of magic from rising up *without* directly doing so (ala Ao).
In summary, Shar does *not* have to have Ao-esque powers to stop a god of magic from ascending by indirect means.
I really cannot make it clearer than that.
Cheers
Those are some really awesome suggestions, and after reading your post - something hit me like a bolt of lightning. Something that suddenly made some things make sense.
A huge issue that has always been brought up: Why was there a Spellplague? Mystra has been done away with on previous occasions and NOTHING like this happened. The explanation that we were given was something like: 'this time things were different.'
You brought up the possibility that one reason Mystra couldn't "return" was because another deity had the portfolio of magic. I brought up the possibility of Cyric having the portfolio of magic in another thread recently. After all, it seems to be pretty standard: You kill a deity, you get their portfolios. It's not a 100% guarantee, but more often than not it happens, right?
So, if Cyric killed Mystra then he could technically be the new god of magic. This would explain what was different and more importantly - why the Spellplague happened.
The moment Cyric obtained those portfolios that once belonged to Mystra, he could have been the divine equivalent of Karsus. He couldn't control the Weave or Magic. Things spiraled out of control. People were killed by the thousands, the world was plunged into chaos and strife. All very fitting consequences for a deity of murder and strife himself.
Mystra could then not return because Cyric held her portfolios. This is really the most logical reason as to why things were different this last time Mystra died as compared to previous deaths. It would also explain why her Chosen could not fulfill one of their primary duties - to bring her back.
Perhaps Cyric has entrusted a portion of Mystra's divinity to Shar, just as a failsafe should something go wrong... which would explain how Shar is preventing the return of Mystra. Or maybe he attempted to give the portfolio of the Weave to Shar, but she lacked the ability to control it and ended up losing control of both the Weave and Shadow Weave as a result. So technically, Shar is the goddess of the Weave (even though there is no Weave). Somewhat ironic.
This makes sense, considering Cyric surely knew of the Shadow Weave, and of the two Shar was the best candidate to control it since she sorta-kinda had experience with her own Weave. |
| Eltheron |
Posted - 13 Jun 2011 : 04:18:35
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
In summary, Shar does *not* have to have Ao-esque powers to stop a god of magic from ascending by indirect means.
Good luck, Erik. This was the only point I was trying to make, repeatedly. I even gave one of the examples you suggested for Shar.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 13 Jun 2011 : 04:05:49
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
In summary, Shar does *not* have to have Ao-esque powers to stop a god of magic from ascending by indirect means.
The reason most of these explanations don't work for me is because if Ao wanted a new deity of magic, what any other deity (or even all of them together!) wanted would be immaterial.
But this has all gone rather astray, and I kinda wish I never even brought it up. I was only responding to an earlier comment about Ao allowing Cyric's punishment, and using the Shar/Mystra example to show how Ao didn't seem to be a factor in 4E. I'd've kept quiet if I'd've know this debate would come out of it. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 13 Jun 2011 : 03:05:22
Shar is "hiding" the portfolio of magic because Ao would not allow her to take it and because Mystra needed some time to "recuperate" before she could take it back. |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 13 Jun 2011 : 01:53:22
Woah, guys. Seriously! Calm thy emotions (perhaps with the aid of magic, if necessary).
Let me rephrased what I said:
Yes, Wooly, Ao is the only one who can *directly* block deities or promote deities.
Yes, Eltheron, for all we know, Shar blocked Mystra by SOME MEANS OTHER than *direct* means. She couldn't block her directly, because (as Wooly pointed out) only Ao can do that.
What we *don't know* is what Shar did, and I think that leaves an amazing range of doubt that can easily be filled by creativity on the part of your local campaign. (Hint hint!)
Let me offer a few suggestions:
1) As previously suggested, Shar absorbed part of Mystra that is necessary for Mystra to come back.
2) As I suggested, Shar convinced Ao not to allow another goddess of magic, which is a huge liability (I mean, look what Mystra's repeated deaths have done).
3) Shar has the portfolio of magic (which no one knows about, because, ahem, goddess of secrets). Or possibly CYRIC has the portfolio of magic, having had it secreted into him.
4) Mystra isn't really dead but imprisoned by Shar, so no other god of magic would ascend to fill her space because it isn't vacant.
5) There is/was a prospective nascent god of magic (a reborn Mystra if you will), whom Shar took prisoner. Alternatively, there could be *many* reborn Mystras that show up (one per generation, I think), which Shar consistently hunts down and kills every time they're born.
The list goes on.
All of those are possible explanations for ways Shar could have stopped a new god of magic from rising up *without* directly doing so (ala Ao).
In summary, Shar does *not* have to have Ao-esque powers to stop a god of magic from ascending by indirect means.
I really cannot make it clearer than that.
Cheers |
| Eltheron |
Posted - 11 Jun 2011 : 15:39:39
You know, I have been civil. But when someone wants fictional gods to judge me, I think I'm done with this.
|
| Sill Alias |
Posted - 11 Jun 2011 : 06:55:24
Gods have different psychology from humans. Therefore comes the fall of Unther when Gods tried to rule the land directly (as it happens under idealistic vision without connection to people other than priests). Therefore comes end of Zhentil Keep (I think it was three times). And you talk not about Cyric and Mystra who were humans once and were partially free from that (which explains great activity from his side), but about the oldest deity that lived from the time of creation of Toril with Selune. Tyr lost his eyes forever when he tried to object the Ao's decree. Shar is not stupid. She may find a way, but how she did it or if she really did it is open to discussion.
I am disappointed in you, scribe. I expected you to keep it civil. I will refrain from comments in future posts. Let the Overgod trio judge you. |
| Eltheron |
Posted - 10 Jun 2011 : 09:35:50
quote:
Originally posted by Sill Alias
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
No, sorry. Ao is totally irrelevant to the issue at hand.
Frankly, I don't know why you're so fixated on Ao when it's known that Shar is the one responsible for this and Ao hasn't even been mentioned. It's like randomly bringing Torm into the equation, when Torm hasn't been involved.
Ao is the only entity in Realmspace that can block the ascension of a deity.
Since Shar has clearly been described as blocking Mystra's rebirth, your premise that Ao is "the only one who can do it" is clearly faulty.
Dear Eltheron, I believe you get a little hotheaded there. Shar by the newest resources took role in blocking the deity from rising, true, but there are no clearer details and info on that (yet), therefore comes discussion. By the canon of previous editions this act is impossible for ALL deities except for overgod Ao, who perhaps can erase god from existence with a thought. The whole thing with Shar is NDA that must be cleared up with new official information. What we say here is based on previous lore, which is almost never unchangeable or corrected by retcons. That is why it is a little too much to assume she did it by herself or did it in the same manner as Ao (yet).
My personal belief is that Shar somehow cheated out the system. With Mask in her we can expect incredible cunning. Or maybe... Mask?
Actually, my emotion at that moment was "amused" rather than "hotheaded".
That said, is it appropriate for you to speculate openly, accusing someone of heated emotions? That, more than my comment, is the type of thing that tends to heat up emotions.
Back to the topic, all the Faerun gods like to test the limits of the rules they're bound by from time to time.
|
| Sill Alias |
Posted - 10 Jun 2011 : 06:48:44
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
No, sorry. Ao is totally irrelevant to the issue at hand.
Frankly, I don't know why you're so fixated on Ao when it's known that Shar is the one responsible for this and Ao hasn't even been mentioned. It's like randomly bringing Torm into the equation, when Torm hasn't been involved.
Ao is the only entity in Realmspace that can block the ascension of a deity.
Since Shar has clearly been described as blocking Mystra's rebirth, your premise that Ao is "the only one who can do it" is clearly faulty.
Dear Eltheron, I believe you get a little hotheaded there. Shar by the newest resources took role in blocking the deity from rising, true, but there are no clearer details and info on that (yet), therefore comes discussion. By the canon of previous editions this act is impossible for ALL deities except for overgod Ao, who perhaps can erase god from existence with a thought. The whole thing with Shar is NDA that must be cleared up with new official information. What we say here is based on previous lore, which is almost never unchangeable or corrected by retcons. That is why it is a little too much to assume she did it by herself or did it in the same manner as Ao (yet).
My personal belief is that Shar somehow cheated out the system. With Mask in her we can expect incredible cunning. Or maybe... Mask? |
| Dennis |
Posted - 10 Jun 2011 : 05:24:17
Indeed. And it adds to his mysterious aspect. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 10 Jun 2011 : 04:47:32
-Agreed. I like Ao better as more of a concept, than an actual "character". |
| Dennis |
Posted - 10 Jun 2011 : 01:55:36
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-I don't see how the two of you are disagreeing. You're both correct, but you're talking apples and oranges to each other. 
quote:
Originally posted by Hippo
Has Ao been mentioned anywhere at all in 4E? I think it would be somewhat interesting if he suddenly dissapeared from the Realms. I believe I read somewhere that he doesn't want to be known?
-After the Time of Troubles, the individuals who witnessed him slowly forgot what they saw, and lost their memories of Ao. He is "above" mundane mortals.
-In terms of the 4e Forgotten Realms, as was mentioned above, the designers wanted to minimize his involvement in lore. He can't be removed completely, but he can be ignored and not really written about, which is basically how things have proceeded- he's being ignored and not really written about.
Which is fine with me. The deities act better without a leash, which is how I see Ao. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 10 Jun 2011 : 01:33:12
quote:
Originally posted by Hippo
Has Ao been mentioned anywhere at all in 4E? I think it would be somewhat interesting if he suddenly dissapeared from the Realms. I believe I read somewhere that he doesn't want to be known?
As I said above:-
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
That was what I originally said: Ao was basically ignored in 4E.
Indeed.
Per Rich Baker:- Ao is being ignored and effectively written out of the 4e Realms.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 09 Jun 2011 : 18:39:22
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-I don't see how the two of you are disagreeing. You're both correct, but you're talking apples and oranges to each other.
Indeed. And so long as that remains the case, I'm out of that discussion. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 09 Jun 2011 : 18:19:23
-I don't see how the two of you are disagreeing. You're both correct, but you're talking apples and oranges to each other.
quote:
Originally posted by Hippo
Has Ao been mentioned anywhere at all in 4E? I think it would be somewhat interesting if he suddenly dissapeared from the Realms. I believe I read somewhere that he doesn't want to be known?
-After the Time of Troubles, the individuals who witnessed him slowly forgot what they saw, and lost their memories of Ao. He is "above" mundane mortals.
-In terms of the 4e Forgotten Realms, as was mentioned above, the designers wanted to minimize his involvement in lore. He can't be removed completely, but he can be ignored and not really written about, which is basically how things have proceeded- he's being ignored and not really written about. |
| Eltheron |
Posted - 09 Jun 2011 : 17:21:34
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
No, sorry. Ao is totally irrelevant to the issue at hand.
Frankly, I don't know why you're so fixated on Ao when it's known that Shar is the one responsible for this and Ao hasn't even been mentioned. It's like randomly bringing Torm into the equation, when Torm hasn't been involved.
Ao is the only entity in Realmspace that can block the ascension of a deity.
Since Shar has clearly been described as blocking Mystra's rebirth, your premise that Ao is "the only one who can do it" is clearly faulty.
|
| Hippo |
Posted - 09 Jun 2011 : 17:04:27
Has Ao been mentioned anywhere at all in 4E? I think it would be somewhat interesting if he suddenly dissapeared from the Realms. I believe I read somewhere that he doesn't want to be known?
It would be pure speculation on my part, but I think it would be interesting if he pulled out of sight from even the other gods. I think that might change the possible influence/abilities that the gods have access to. The divine rule's changing could make for an interesting storyline.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 09 Jun 2011 : 16:07:46
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
No, sorry. Ao is totally irrelevant to the issue at hand.
Frankly, I don't know why you're so fixated on Ao when it's known that Shar is the one responsible for this and Ao hasn't even been mentioned. It's like randomly bringing Torm into the equation, when Torm hasn't been involved.
Ao is the only entity in Realmspace that can block the ascension of a deity. Therefore, he is most relevant to the discussion, since Shar is described as doing something she should not be able to do.
And I'm fixated on this because a)only Ao can do what Shar apparently did, and 2)Per my quote below, I originally brought up the Shar/Mystra thing as an example of how Ao is being disregarded in 4E.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm not sure Ao can be considered a factor in this. Ao was not, as I recall, liked by the 4E design team, and was quietly shuffled off to one side. To me, the bigger Ao-related question remains how Shar, who does not have the ability to do so, somehow blocked the ascension of a new deity of magic. That ability is solely Ao's, yet he remains unmentioned with everything regarding Mystra's murder and the subsequent effects on the Realms.
And here's the heart of it: I'm discussing Ao, and what he can do. If you're not wanting to talk about Ao, we're not talking about the same thing, and thus we'll never get anywhere. |
| Eltheron |
Posted - 09 Jun 2011 : 13:41:02
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
One fact is being ignored in this whole Shar/Mystra thing, and it was my original point: Ao is the one who decides if someone is going to be the god of something. If Ao wanted a god of magic, nothing Shar or any other deity could do would stop that. Saying that Shar somehow stopped the ascension of a deity of magic -- something she does not have the ability to do, nor does anyone else outside of Ao -- ignores the fact that that's Ao's call. That was what I originally said: Ao was basically ignored in 4E.
Once again: what Ao can or cannot do is irrelevant. Ao hasn't even been mentioned in recent times, so trying to speculate about what he does or doesn't want to allow is fairly pointless.
Yet they have specifically said that Shar is doing something to prevent Mystra's rebirth. So that's a fact that you're ignoring.
No one is saying that Shar suddenly has Ao's ability to block ascensions generally. What is being suggested is that Shar has or is doing something specific that is getting in Mystra's way. The end result is the same, even if "only Ao can decide". But since Ao hasn't been seen or heard from, there's zero point in speculating about what he wants.
What Ao can or cannot do is not irrelevant, it was my entire point.
No, sorry. Ao is totally irrelevant to the issue at hand.
Frankly, I don't know why you're so fixated on Ao when it's known that Shar is the one responsible for this and Ao hasn't even been mentioned. It's like randomly bringing Torm into the equation, when Torm hasn't been involved. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 09 Jun 2011 : 11:03:59
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
One fact is being ignored in this whole Shar/Mystra thing, and it was my original point: Ao is the one who decides if someone is going to be the god of something. If Ao wanted a god of magic, nothing Shar or any other deity could do would stop that. Saying that Shar somehow stopped the ascension of a deity of magic -- something she does not have the ability to do, nor does anyone else outside of Ao -- ignores the fact that that's Ao's call. That was what I originally said: Ao was basically ignored in 4E.
Once again: what Ao can or cannot do is irrelevant. Ao hasn't even been mentioned in recent times, so trying to speculate about what he does or doesn't want to allow is fairly pointless.
Yet they have specifically said that Shar is doing something to prevent Mystra's rebirth. So that's a fact that you're ignoring.
No one is saying that Shar suddenly has Ao's ability to block ascensions generally. What is being suggested is that Shar has or is doing something specific that is getting in Mystra's way. The end result is the same, even if "only Ao can decide". But since Ao hasn't been seen or heard from, there's zero point in speculating about what he wants.
What Ao can or cannot do is not irrelevant, it was my entire point. |
| Eltheron |
Posted - 09 Jun 2011 : 05:52:33
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
One fact is being ignored in this whole Shar/Mystra thing, and it was my original point: Ao is the one who decides if someone is going to be the god of something. If Ao wanted a god of magic, nothing Shar or any other deity could do would stop that. Saying that Shar somehow stopped the ascension of a deity of magic -- something she does not have the ability to do, nor does anyone else outside of Ao -- ignores the fact that that's Ao's call. That was what I originally said: Ao was basically ignored in 4E.
Once again: what Ao can or cannot do is irrelevant. Ao hasn't even been mentioned in recent times, so trying to speculate about what he does or doesn't want to allow is fairly pointless.
Yet they have specifically said that Shar is doing something to prevent Mystra's rebirth. So that's a fact that you're ignoring.
No one is saying that Shar suddenly has Ao's ability to block ascensions generally. What is being suggested is that Shar has or is doing something specific that is getting in Mystra's way. The end result is the same, even if "only Ao can decide". But since Ao hasn't been seen or heard from, there's zero point in speculating about what he wants.
|
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 09 Jun 2011 : 04:35:07
-It was one of the 4e preview articles that were released in the heady days leading up to the debut of the FRCG did indeed state that Shar held back a new Mystra from appearing, after Mystra was killed by Cyric. That said, Wolly is correct in that, on the surface, this is not something that she should seemingly have sway over.
-Personally, I think we have a situation similar to what Graz'zt did with Waukeen, during the Time of Troubles. Shar doesn't have the ability to prevent a new Mystra from being born as an ability, per se, but she did something to hold Mystra's essence prisoner, or something to that effect, when it should have "automatically" been reborn. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 09 Jun 2011 : 04:24:36
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
That was what I originally said: Ao was basically ignored in 4E.
Indeed.
Per Rich Baker:- Ao is being ignored and effectively written out of the 4e Realms.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 09 Jun 2011 : 04:17:34
One fact is being ignored in this whole Shar/Mystra thing, and it was my original point: Ao is the one who decides if someone is going to be the god of something. If Ao wanted a god of magic, nothing Shar or any other deity could do would stop that. Saying that Shar somehow stopped the ascension of a deity of magic -- something she does not have the ability to do, nor does anyone else outside of Ao -- ignores the fact that that's Ao's call. That was what I originally said: Ao was basically ignored in 4E. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 09 Jun 2011 : 01:31:03
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
Reading Ed Greenwood's latest novel preview, the assumption that Mystra was slain is seriously called into question.
Honestly, I don't believe that there should have been any real doubt concerning the apparent demise of Mystra.
Ed has reiterated the point many times, that Mystra can't be permanently destroyed without the death of her Chosen and all others in whom her essence is placed.
Considering that the Chosen remain in the Realms, and the fact that Mystra IS the Weave, the return of one means the likely restoration of the other. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 09 Jun 2011 : 01:19:38
I don't think Shar "personally" blocked a deity from rising to become the new goddess of magic. "Influence" is more like it. Otherwise, she'd be too powerful (which she isn't yet) to assume such ability only Ao is supposed to have. |
| Eltheron |
Posted - 09 Jun 2011 : 00:51:34
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
This is an interesting debate, but unfortunately, we don't have all the facts about what went down with Shar and Mystra. The facts we do have are these:
1) The only power we've seen exercising *direct* control over whether other deities ascend or descend is Ao.
2) Mystra perished in 1485, touching off the Spellplague.
3) A new god of magic has not ascended to take Mystra's mantle.
4) A passage somewhere (I also forget which book it's from) states that Shar played a role in blocking the ascension of a new god of magic.
#4 does not actually state that Shar has the ability to promote or block a deity directly, only that she was somehow involved in preventing a new god of magic rising to power. She might have (as previously suggested) withheld a certain amount of the power necessary for a god of magic. She might have her church aggressively root out and murder potential deities of magic. She might have convinced Ao that investing so much power in a single deity (like Mystra) caused so much havoc, so he shouldn't allow a new god of magic (which is really a pretty good point from the Queen of Darkness). Heck, she might have subsumed Ao. We just don't know what Shar did--only that she was involved.
Another potential explanation is that Mystra isn't really dead, but only hibernating or waiting to be reincarnated or something along those lines. There's really no way for us to know just at the moment.
Cheers
Facts are often changed in the Realms.
Reading Ed Greenwood's latest novel preview, the assumption that Mystra was slain is seriously called into question.
And as Erik stated, I'm not suggesting that Shar has Ao's ability to raise or block new deities. Rather, I'm stating that she does clearly have some influence over her previously "split off" deity energy as seen with Mask. It's not unreasonable to speculate that when Mystra lost control and (nearly) died, Shar could've sucked her portion of Mystra's energy back up - thereby being an impediment to Mystra's return. It's not that Shar is blocking it by fiat, it's that she has a piece of energy that Mystra needs in order to be reborn.
And gods steal things from each other all the time. |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 09 Jun 2011 : 00:39:12
This is an interesting debate, but unfortunately, we don't have all the facts about what went down with Shar and Mystra. The facts we do have are these:
1) The only power we've seen exercising *direct* control over whether other deities ascend or descend is Ao.
2) Mystra perished in 1485, touching off the Spellplague.
3) A new god of magic has not ascended to take Mystra's mantle.
4) A passage somewhere (I also forget which book it's from) states that Shar played a role in blocking the ascension of a new god of magic.
#4 does not actually state that Shar has the ability to promote or block a deity directly, only that she was somehow involved in preventing a new god of magic rising to power. She might have (as previously suggested) withheld a certain amount of the power necessary for a god of magic. She might have her church aggressively root out and murder potential deities of magic. She might have convinced Ao that investing so much power in a single deity (like Mystra) caused so much havoc, so he shouldn't allow a new god of magic (which is really a pretty good point from the Queen of Darkness). Heck, she might have subsumed Ao. We just don't know what Shar did--only that she was involved.
Another potential explanation is that Mystra isn't really dead, but only hibernating or waiting to be reincarnated or something along those lines. There's really no way for us to know just at the moment.
Cheers
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| Eltheron |
Posted - 09 Jun 2011 : 00:17:58
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
I think it's more that Ao has to approve new deities, or the changeover of portfolios when it's a brand new deity in a given job. If deities undergo re-birth (Lolth, Bane, Mystra, Amaunator), Ao doesn't appear to get involved. Similarly, if a current deity kills another and steals a given portfolio, Ao doesn't really get involved.
If it's a new ascension, then yes, he comes in to not only approve or disapprove but also to "set the rules" for the new deity in various respects.
Mystra, though, is an old deity and there really is no complete separation between Mystryl, Mystra1 and Mystra2. She is equal parts of Shar and Selune energy, and if she can't access both halves (perhaps because Shar took her part back) then Shar could indeed "block" Mystra's rebirth and Ao might not get involved at all.
Again, Shar has no control over the ascension of new deities. Only Ao can regulate that.
And again, if Shar had to approve the rebirth of Mystra, why didn't she stop it on any of the prior occasions?
Mystryl may have been formed from Shar and Selūne, but there has never been the slightest indication that either deity has any power over her.
Mystra's prior rebirths, again, were just rebirths. She was not "new" as a deity.
They've made a big deal about the Spellplague being hugely different than Mystra's prior rebirths. In previous cases, Mystra's rebirth went off without Shar's interference because Shar didn't steal back her portion of Mystra's energy.
Mask was born of Shar's energy and didn't have any real power over him until she convinced him it was time for re-absorption. Similarly, Shar didn't have any direct influence over Mystra until Mystra lost control of her deific energy. When that happened in the Spellplague, Shar stole it back and is keeping Mystra from half of what she needs in order to be reborn.
And Mystryl didn't lose control when Karsus stole her power from her?
Nothing in canon supports Shar being able to have any affect on Mystra, or on being able to stop the ascension of a new deity. Nothing. Deities are not her portfolio, and the fact that Mystryl was once part of Shar, millenia ago, is utterly irrelevant to the discussion. The two are entirely separate entities, with no connection at all between themselves.
With Karsus, Mystra retained enough control to undergo her own rebirth -and- simultaneously eject him from the equation.
And it doesn't matter about prior lore when it comes to the Spellplague. That event trumps everything, and we still don't know all of its effects.
And honestly, we cannot really say with any certainty that various deities are "separate" when many of them turned out in 4E to be not only linked to other deities (i.e. Mask to Shar) but in fact were entirely different than what was previously "known" to be true (i.e. Talos as an aspect of Gruumsh).
The fact that Mystra was composed of half Sharran and half Selunian energy is something to be looked at more closely than ever, given 4E.
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